Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #467371

Re: Rub Odd's nose in it.

From	Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address>
Newsgroups	sci.physics, sci.physics.relativity
Subject	Re: Rub Odd's nose in it.
Date	2018-08-09 11:48 +1000
Message-ID	<ft1kqgFr7u9U1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	(4 earlier) <pkdc26$15qf$1@gioia.aioe.org> <fsvjj0FcqkhU1@mid.individual.net> <pkev1m$1i19$1@gioia.aioe.org> <ft1bt1Fpgr4U1@mid.individual.net> <pkg01c$19jp$1@gioia.aioe.org>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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On 9/08/2018 9:57 AM, benj wrote:
> On 8/8/2018 7:15 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
>> On 9/08/2018 12:34 AM, benj wrote:
>>> On 8/8/2018 3:14 AM, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>> On 8/08/2018 10:04 AM, benj wrote:
>>>>> On 8/7/2018 12:24 PM, Tom Roberts wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/7/18 3:53 AM, benj wrote:
>>>>>>> Are you talking mathematics or physics?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Both -- the mathematical structure of current physical theories 
>>>>>> and models.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you agree that agree with Odd that empty space containing no 
>>>>>>> charges and hence produces no forces on test charges is not 
>>>>>>> devoid of fields but actually is filled with an electric (an 
>>>>>>> other types) of fields whose value is simply zero?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes. Because if you believe Maxwell's equations apply, or if you 
>>>>>> believe that QED applies, then you are FORCED to conclude there is 
>>>>>> a corresponding electromagnetic field everywhere, including 
>>>>>> regions in which it is zero (which really never happens).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      As I said before, this is INHERENT in what "field" means.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom Roberts
>>>>>
>>>>> What you mean is that it is INHERENT in the definition what a 
>>>>> vector field is, mathematically. (Note you must use the term vector 
>>>>> field because otherwise the term can be confused with an algebraic 
>>>>> field which is something else entirely, right?)
>>>>>
>>>>> A vector field starts with a region of some mathematical space and 
>>>>> a vector quantity is assigned to each point (an infinite number of 
>>>>> them)
>>>>> in that subspace. Therefore, by definition the vector field exists 
>>>>> (assuming I have chosen to define one) even though all vectors at 
>>>>> every point are zero. You and Odd win, right? Of course if I choose 
>>>>> NOT to define a field in that space (reality is determined by my 
>>>>> imagination, right?) then there is no field in that subspace only a 
>>>>> coordinate system, unless I choose not to define one of those 
>>>>> either, in which case there is no subspace existing at all and I 
>>>>> win, right?
>>>>>
>>>>> Wrong. Mathematics is not more real than reality. In reality and in 
>>>>> Maxwell theory in particular, the mathematics is only a model to 
>>>>> describe what seems to be force field like phenomena produced by 
>>>>> charges. People (Odd's textbooks) love to talk about "fields" as if 
>>>>> they were real physical things. They are NOT. Forces are real, 
>>>>> models are fantasy. Hence when charges are missing, there are no 
>>>>> forces present in the subspace. People use the terminology that 
>>>>> there are no "fields" there but as seen above that is 
>>>>> mathematically wrong on several counts if someone has defined a 
>>>>> null vector field there. And if a charge is suddenly placed in that 
>>>>> subspace it is known that forces from it will NOT be measured 
>>>>> immediately at a distance from it (unless we are talking ESP 
>>>>> interactions) as the actions travel away from the source at 
>>>>> velocity c.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Forces are as much models as fields are. Can you grab a force, and 
>>>> take one home?
>>>>
>>>> All we ever have are models. Reality, if it exists, is forever out 
>>>> of our reach. Even what we think we're perceiving through our senses 
>>>> is nothing but an extrapolation that the brain makes based on models.
>>>>
>>>> Sylvia.
>>>
>>> Oh so you really have no training in science and are a liberal 
>>> journalist who believes that all reality exists ONLY in your 
>>> imagination and drug-soaked fantasies. Well, welcome to the crowd. 
>>> That describes nearly all of those here pretending to discuss science.
>>>
>>> Forces can be MODELED but they are not models. Forces can move your 
>>> silly ass. Mathematics exists only in fantasy. While it is true we do 
>>> not have direct access to our optical and other sensor arrays and 
>>> therefore perceive the data as algorithmic output, that does not 
>>> imply that reality only exists as algorithmic fantasy. Although 
>>> glasses provide algorithmic transformation of the images coming to 
>>> your eyes, putting on your glasses does not mean that the world out 
>>> there is now total fantasy. Are you one of those "the moon does not 
>>> exist until somebody looks at it" idiots?
>>>
>>> Mathematics is not more real than reality.
>>>
>>
>> If you're going to engage in straw man argument and abuse, I can't be 
>> bothered with you.
>>
>> Sylvia.
> 
> Translation. You have nothing so you turn tail and run.
> 
> (As you will recall (but certainly will lie about and deny) the abuse 
> was started by YOU, If you can't stand the heat then get out of the 
> kitchen and get a career in government)

Yeah, that might have worked with a teenager.

Sylvia.

Thread

Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-05 02:13 -0400
  Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tson Ylor <uo@srsysts.sd> - 2018-08-05 12:08 +0000
  Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-05 13:06 +0000
    Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-05 12:10 -0400
      Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-05 18:57 +0000
        Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-06 13:33 -0400
          Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-06 18:07 +0000
            Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-06 17:23 -0400
              Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-06 22:43 +0000
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-07 04:39 -0400
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-07 13:45 +0000
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-07 12:50 -0400
  Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-08-05 08:27 -0500
    Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tson Ylor <uo@srsysts.sg> - 2018-08-05 14:13 +0000
      Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-05 12:23 -0400
        Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tson Ylor <uo@srsysts.sg> - 2018-08-05 17:47 +0000
          Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-06 13:32 -0400
            Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Owen Scharff <nehh@fenohw.hp> - 2018-08-06 18:05 +0000
              Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-06 17:15 -0400
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Owen Scharff <nehh@fenohw.hn> - 2018-08-07 09:21 +0000
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Volney <volney@volney.invalid> - 2018-08-07 08:36 -0400
    Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-05 12:17 -0400
      Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-05 18:57 +0000
        Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-08-05 13:20 -0700
        Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-06 13:39 -0400
          Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-08-06 19:22 -0500
      Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-08-05 18:41 -0500
    Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-08-05 22:50 -0500
      Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-06 13:51 -0400
        Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-08-06 13:08 -0500
  Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2018-08-07 11:40 +1000
    Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-07 01:49 +0000
    Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-07 04:53 -0400
      Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Owen Scharff <nehh@fenohw.hn> - 2018-08-07 10:02 +0000
        Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-08-07 08:55 -0500
          Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-07 13:05 -0400
      Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-08-07 11:24 -0500
        Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-07 16:56 +0000
        Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-07 20:04 -0400
          Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-08-08 09:05 +0200
          Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2018-08-08 17:14 +1000
            Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-08 10:34 -0400
              Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-08-08 20:16 +0200
              Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2018-08-09 09:15 +1000
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-08 19:57 -0400
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2018-08-09 11:48 +1000
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-09 11:02 -0400
          Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-08-08 11:08 -0500
            Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-08 13:23 -0400
              Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-08-08 20:26 +0200
              Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-08-09 10:15 -0500
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-09 12:48 -0400
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-08-11 23:37 -0500
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Owen Scharff <nehh@fenvhw.ho> - 2018-08-12 11:31 +0000
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Owen Scharff <nehh@fenvhw.ho> - 2018-08-12 11:34 +0000
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-12 10:09 -0400
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-08-12 21:29 -0500
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Lovu Biftek <ufeli@fupuks.cl> - 2018-08-13 10:53 +0000
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-08-13 04:08 -0700
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-13 11:41 -0400
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-08-13 10:02 -0700
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-13 17:36 +0000
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-08-13 10:45 -0700
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-08-15 18:56 -0500
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-08-16 06:29 -0700
          Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-08 23:55 +0000
            Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-09 10:58 -0400
              Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-09 15:26 +0000
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-09 12:36 -0400
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-09 17:53 +0000
                Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-08-09 11:21 -0700
        Re: Rub Odd's nose in it. Owen Scharff <nehh@fenohw.hn> - 2018-08-08 11:12 +0000
  Rub Odd's nose in it. Y <yanarchi@hotmail.com> - 2018-08-16 20:34 -0700

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