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Groups > comp.lang.c > #126777
| From | David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.c |
| Subject | Re: Text Files |
| Date | 2018-02-16 10:09 +0100 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <p6673c$7j6$1@dont-email.me> (permalink) |
| References | (3 earlier) <61abd898-60fc-4290-823a-a7ddd264700e@googlegroups.com> <p64768$gpj$1@dont-email.me> <TBihC.260036$w26.87474@fx47.am4> <p64qnr$b5q$1@dont-email.me> <zRmhC.24616$Dt.19656@fx18.am4> |
On 15/02/18 22:21, bartc wrote:
> On 15/02/2018 20:31, David Brown wrote:
>> On 15/02/18 17:31, bartc wrote:
>
>>> Here it is in my script language, but reading 6 numbers per line:
>>>
>>> file:=openfile("input")
>>> while not eof(file) do
>>> readln @file,a,b,c,d,e,f
>>> println a+b+c+d+e+f
>>> od
>>> closefile(file)
>>>
>>> Simple constructs that everyone understands.
>>
>> It is certainly not simpler or clearer than the Python code, IMHO.
>
> Really? I believe the Python code just to read three numbers from the
> console would be something like:
>
> a, b, c = map(float, input().split())
>
> (with the problems i that every number is a float, and it only allows
> white-space separators.
>
> You say that is simpler and clearer than writing:
>
> readln a, b, c
What I said was that the Python code /I/ wrote was simpler and clearer
than the script code /you/ wrote. I stand by that assertion - amongst
other things, there is no indication from your code where these
variables a, b, etc., come from, what they are, or what they do. There
is no indication about types. How would this look different if the user
wanted floats rather than ints (or vice versa), or concatenated strings?
How would your code work if you wanted floats, but using the
continental European convention of a decimal comma?
I also said that the Python code could be written in many different ways
- that does not mean that every other way of writing it is clear. /I/
am happy with "map", and I am sure Ben is, but many other people are not.
>
> OK. I seem to to remember you said some horrendous C x-macro was better
> than the beautifully tabulated version in my language, so you do seem to
> have some odd opinions.
>
Yes, the x-macro version there was better than your mess, AFAIR. But
"beauty" is in the eye of the beholder, and you will obviously be highly
biased towards your own languages. After all, since they have no use
beyond /your/ own programming, they would be rather pointless if they
did not suit the way you like to write code!
> You
>> are biased from familiarity with your own language.
>
> And my own language was developed from familiarity with others.
It was developed first and foremost from familiarity with your own
preferences, experiences, and way of thinking. Don't kid yourself in
thinking you have made a solid study of programming languages,
programmers, and code, and come up with a good general programming
language. It is entirely about how /you/ want to write code for the
programs /you/ want to write.
Or am I mistaken, and you can give me links to your extensive user group
of people whom you worked with to get ideas for the language, to discuss
the best way to write it, to talk about how it could be used to solve a
wide range of problems, to consider its limitations or improvements, to
write sample code, tutorials, documentation, etc.?
Don't get me wrong here - making your own language and writing the tools
for it is no mean achievement, and deserves respect. It is thinking
that you have a language of significance or that is, in a general sense,
"better" than other languages that is the problem.
>
> Reading a bunch of numbers from a line is classically done by some
> command like:
>
> read a, b, c
>
> as done in the OP's pseudo-code, and I'm sure I've done it that way in
> Basic, Algol, Fortran and Pascal (too longer ago to remember, but my
> language started about then too and I tended to copy what I'd used).
>
> Python, however, specifically can't do as simple as that (except perhaps
> with some hairy extensions, but I'm not sure it can as clean as that).
>
> You /have/ to apply string processing to get the numbers out of a line
> of input as I showed in my example.
>
Different languages handle this sort of thing in different ways and have
their pros and cons. Basic might be simpler for reading these 6 numbers
- and then harder when the number of items is unknown. That is not the
point - the key issue is merely that /C/ is an extremely poor choice of
language for this sort of thing in comparison to many others.
>
>> Having some sort of type indication is essential - that's how you can
>> tell that you are treating these as numbers and not strings. Support
>> for floating point instead of integers in the Python is a matter of
>> changing "int" to "float".
>
> Then you will always get a float, not either int or float. (That may or
> may not be what is wanted, but you have to be aware of it.)
Of course you have to be aware of what you are doing. The OP didn't
give a detailed specification, so any guesses about the details or
restrictions are no more than guesses.
>
>> ubiquitous, except on Windows, at around that time. Your scripting
>> language exists nowhere but your own machine.
>
> I've posted versions of it from time to time. But availability isn't the
> issue. It shows alternative, usually much simpler ways that things can
> work. Same with my alternative to C.
>
>>>> This kind of script /is/ easy to run on almost every platform. The
>>>> exception to ease-of-use is, as always, Windows - but it is still /far/
>>>> easier to run a Python script on Windows than to deal with a C
>>>> compiler.
>>>
>>> Rubbish.
>>>
>>
>> Installing Python is a single download. Installing a decent C
>> compiler on Windows seems to be beyond your capabilities - but now you
>> think it is easier than Python?
>
> You made an unwarranted comment about Windows. If something is hard to
> install, it's usually the fault of the thing being installed.
No, in this case it is absolutely and undeniably a Windows-only issue.
Virtually every Linux (and BSD, and other *nix) distribution for the
last couple of decades has included Python by default. All but the most
minimalist of embedded Linux systems have at least had it in their
repositories - installable by "apt-get install python" or similar
command, or selecting it from their standard "install software" system.
Windows is the /only/ desktop system where you would have to find the
Python webside, find the downloads page, figure out which version you
want, download it, start the installer, and click through the setup
system. And it is the only system where you can't start the interpreter
by typing "python" at the command prompt. I am not saying that
installing Python on Windows is /hard/ - but it is still infinitely
harder than using it on a system that already has it installed by default!
Similarly, many Linux systems already have gcc installed - and for
others, it is a quick apt-get away (as is clang, gcc-mingw cross
compiler for windows, several embedded system cross compilers, and even
tcc for Linux, at least on my system).
Again, don't get me wrong here - the "Linux way" for installation is far
better than the "Windows way" for most purposes, but it can be a lot
harder if you want software (or versions) that are not in the repositories.
>
> /My/ C compiler is no problem at all. The base compiler is a single
> executable; what can go wrong? The following compiles the C program I
> posted today:
>
> c:\c>mcc d
> MCC/TCL Compiler 2018.1.18
> Compiling d.c to d.a64
>
Of course your C compiler is a problem. First, no one knows about it,
and few sane people who happened to find it on the net would choose an
unknown little C compiler from an unknown source. Secondly, it is very
limited - you wrote it to compile the C code generated by your other
tools, not to be a realistic choice of C compiler. Thirdly, even if it
were a /perfect/ tool, you still need to download it, install it, figure
out how to run it, write your C code (how is your IDE?), compile it (how
are your warning messages?), debug it (how's your debugger?), test it -
and then, finally, you can run your program on the real input file of
numbers.
Or you can write 3 lines of Python code and have them run as you type
them in.
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Text Files G B <gb@gb.com> - 2018-02-14 11:47 -0400
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Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-15 15:58 +0100
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-15 16:31 +0000
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-15 21:31 +0100
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-15 21:21 +0000
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-15 22:17 +0000
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-15 23:36 +0000
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-15 23:48 +0000
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-16 10:09 +0100
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-16 12:57 +0000
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-16 15:50 +0100
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-16 15:50 +0000
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-16 17:07 +0100
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-16 20:44 +0000
Re: Text Files Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-17 11:22 +1300
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-16 17:48 +0000
Re: Text Files GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-16 17:06 +0100
Re: Text Files Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-17 11:10 +1300
Re: Text Files supercat@casperkitty.com - 2018-02-16 14:48 -0800
Re: Text Files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-16 15:14 -0800
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-16 23:25 +0000
Re: Text Files supercat@casperkitty.com - 2018-02-16 15:50 -0800
Re: Text Files already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2018-02-16 07:19 -0800
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-16 17:13 +0100
Re: Text Files Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-02-19 17:55 +0000
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-19 19:14 +0100
Re: Text Files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-19 11:48 -0800
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-16 08:14 -0800
Re: Text Files Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2018-02-17 18:32 -0600
Re: Text Files jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2018-02-15 22:57 +0100
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-15 22:58 +0000
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-16 00:19 +0000
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-16 02:26 +0000
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-16 02:57 +0000
Re: Text Files asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2018-02-16 00:21 -0800
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-16 11:30 +0000
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-16 10:36 +0100
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-16 11:36 +0000
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-16 13:10 +0100
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-16 12:25 +0000
Re: Text Files Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2018-03-06 19:33 +0000
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-06 20:55 +0000
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-16 04:42 -0800
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-16 16:58 +0100
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-16 20:02 +0000
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-16 21:43 +0100
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-17 04:01 -0800
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-17 13:10 +0000
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-17 05:27 -0800
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-17 14:20 +0000
Re: Text Files Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-02-16 09:04 -0700
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-16 14:31 +0000
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-16 06:42 -0800
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-16 14:58 +0000
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-16 07:23 -0800
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-16 15:24 +0000
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Re: Text Files Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-02-20 16:41 +0000
Re: Text Files Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2018-02-20 09:39 -0800
Re: Text Files Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-02-20 19:16 +0000
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-15 12:46 +0000
Re: Text Files GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-15 14:52 +0100
Re: Text Files Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> - 2018-02-15 17:07 +0300
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-15 14:23 +0000
Re: Text Files Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> - 2018-02-15 18:52 +0300
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-15 14:39 +0000
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-15 15:43 +0000
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-15 20:32 +0000
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-15 22:06 +0000
Re: Text Files GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-15 23:12 +0100
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Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-15 23:54 +0000
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Re: Text Files Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-17 17:26 +1300
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-17 11:22 +0000
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-17 12:07 +0000
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-17 04:17 -0800
Re: Text Files Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.com> - 2018-02-17 16:25 +0300
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-17 07:35 -0800
Re: Text Files GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-17 15:24 +0100
Re: Text Files Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-18 11:10 +1300
Re: Text Files Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2018-02-19 12:05 -0800
Re: Text Files already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2018-02-19 15:32 -0800
Re: Text Files Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2018-02-21 10:34 -0800
Re: Text Files already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2018-02-21 15:35 -0800
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-22 00:11 +0000
Re: Text Files Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2018-02-21 18:26 -0600
Re: Text Files Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2018-02-21 21:39 -0800
Re: Text Files Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2018-02-23 03:08 -0600
Re: Text Files supercat@casperkitty.com - 2018-02-23 16:16 -0800
Re: Text Files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-23 16:46 -0800
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-24 02:49 -0800
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Re: Text Files "F. Russell" <fr@random.info> - 2018-02-24 14:35 +0000
Re: Text Files Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-02-24 08:48 -0700
Re: Text Files supercat@casperkitty.com - 2018-02-25 15:09 -0800
Re: Text Files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-25 15:54 -0800
Re: Text Files supercat@casperkitty.com - 2018-02-26 11:04 -0800
Re: Text Files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-26 11:52 -0800
Re: Text Files supercat@casperkitty.com - 2018-02-26 14:12 -0800
Re: Text Files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-26 14:40 -0800
Re: Text Files already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2018-02-22 04:58 -0800
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-22 05:33 -0800
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-22 13:59 +0000
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-22 07:24 -0800
Re: Text Files supercat@casperkitty.com - 2018-02-20 12:14 -0800
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-15 21:37 +0100
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-15 21:34 +0000
Re: Text Files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-15 14:15 -0800
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-16 10:47 +0100
Re: Text Files "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2018-02-15 22:20 +0800
Re: Text Files "F. Russell" <fr@random.info> - 2018-02-15 15:24 +0000
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-15 16:05 +0000
Re: Text Files "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2018-02-16 00:22 +0800
Re: Text Files Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-02-15 13:35 -0700
Re: Text Files Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.com> - 2018-02-25 00:13 +0300
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-24 21:24 +0000
Re: Text Files Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.com> - 2018-02-25 14:55 +0300
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-25 13:00 +0000
Re: Text Files Real Troll <Real.Troll@Trolls.com> - 2018-02-24 17:35 -0400
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Re: Text Files Real Troll <Real.Troll@Trolls.com> - 2018-02-24 17:45 -0400
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Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-25 00:14 +0000
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-25 00:22 +0000
Re: Text Files Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.com> - 2018-02-25 15:16 +0300
Re: Text Files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-25 15:20 -0800
Re: Text Files Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-02-25 20:27 -0700
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Re: Text Files Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> - 2018-02-26 15:35 +0300
Re: Text Files Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2018-02-26 20:53 +0800
Grammar Patrol (Was: Text Files) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-02-26 17:54 +0000
Re: Text Files Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-02-26 15:27 +0000
Re: Text Files Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> - 2018-02-26 18:50 +0300
Re: Text Files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-26 09:26 -0800
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Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-27 10:15 +0100
Re: Text Files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-27 08:53 -0800
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Re: Text Files Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-02-26 08:32 -0700
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