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Groups > comp.lang.c > #127058
| From | Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.c |
| Subject | Re: Text Files |
| Date | 2018-02-25 15:54 -0800 |
| Organization | None to speak of |
| Message-ID | <lnzi3wiq0f.fsf@kst-u.example.com> (permalink) |
| References | (11 earlier) <kfnlgflvazg.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu> <6flv8d9ii03eh280a1l8sia5a1eul0bsjs@4ax.com> <e8333d92-3eb3-4463-9720-725948c427ae@googlegroups.com> <lny3jjjjua.fsf@kst-u.example.com> <9990dccb-4af6-4d66-8a03-8842bd0f92a4@googlegroups.com> |
supercat@casperkitty.com writes:
> On Friday, February 23, 2018 at 6:46:19 PM UTC-6, Keith Thompson wrote:
>> supercat@casperkitty.com writes:
>> > The problem is that there are a number of useful things that scanf could
>> > do in case of overflow, and none of them is sufficiently better than the
>> > others to justify mandating that all scanf implementations must be changed
>> > to do work that way. While the behavior should arguably be Implementation-
>> > Defined rather than Undefined, the only difference between Undefined
>> > Behavior and Implementation-Defined behavior in 1989 was whether
>> > implementations were *required* to formally document the behavior. Unless
>> > the Standard were to identify all the ways in which a scanf implementation
>> > might behave in case of overflow, UB and IDB would have been the same from
>> > a portability standpoint.
>>
>> Of course the standard would specify all the ways it might behave.
>>
>> Implementation-defined behavior is by definition
>> unspecified behavior where each implementation documents how the
>> choice is made
>> and unspecified behavior is
>> use of an unspecified value, or other behavior where this
>> International Standard **provides two or more possibilities**
>> and imposes no further requirements on which is chosen in
>> any instance
>> (emphasis added).
>
> Many C implementations make use of external libraries or platform
> features. Documenting all of the factors that might affect the
> behavior of an overflow that occurs within a scanf might have been
> impractical for some implementations.
That's not an issue. The external library is part of the
C implementation, so its documentation is part of the C
implementation's documentation.
>> Reasonable behaviors could include setting the object to an
>> unspecified or implementation-defined value, or treating overflow as
>> a matching failure. If the standard were changed to require overflow
>> to behave in one of those ways, it might not break any existing
>> implementations, but it would make the *scanf functions much safer.
>
> There very likely existed some code that required each behavior,
> and quite possibly code that relied upon *scanf setting errno or
> some other kind of implementation-defined flag.
The standard could state that the behavior of scanf("%d", ...) is
implementation-defined and enumerate a finite list of permitted
behaviors, consistent with what current implementations actually do.
It wouldn't even have to mention setting errno, since library
functions are permitted to do anyway.
Or it could enumerate a smaller list of permitted behaviors,
requiring some implementations to change their behavior in order to
conform to C202X. It could even specify the exact required behavior,
which might require *all* implementations to be updated, perhaps by
borrowing code from their own strto*() implementations.
As it is, since the behavior is undefined, an implementation is
permitted to terminate the program on overflow. (I don't believe any
implementations actually do so, but since it's permitted I have to
consider the possibility if I want to write portable code.)
>> As it is, `sscanf("999999999999", "%d", &n)` could crash your
>> program. If overflow were implementation-defined rather than UB,
>> it couldn't.
>
> Quality implementations that can sensibly define the behavior
> should do so. An implementation that evalues some *scanf calls
> by calling an external library function of that name, but
> evaluates others by substituting other functions [similar to the
> way gcc may replace printf("Hello\n"); with puts("Hello");] would
> have a hard time describing how overflow would be handled if
> those external functions might handle it differently.
If the behavior is implementation-defined, then implementations would be
required to document that behavior, regardless of how difficult it might
be. In practice, it wouldn't be particularly difficult.
> Note that from the point of view of the Standard, there is almost
> never any guarantee that a scanf call won't result in a stack
> overflow that could cause arbitrary behavior. Obviously that
> won't usually happen in a quality implementation except during very
> deeply-nested function calls, but nor should quality implementations
> do anything else particularly dangerous with a scanf call.
>
> The notion that UB should encourage quality implementations to
> behave in wackier fashion than IDB did not emerge until long after
> the Committee had decided which actions to classify as UB versus
> IDB.
Nonsense. Nobody is talking about "encouraging" wacky behavior.
The point is that UB *permits* arbitrary behavior, and IDB does not.
That affects what I can safely do in code that's intended to be
portable.
--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
Working, but not speaking, for JetHead Development, Inc.
"We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this."
-- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"
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Text Files G B <gb@gb.com> - 2018-02-14 11:47 -0400
Re: Text Files Ed Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-02-14 08:45 -0800
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-14 08:47 -0800
Re: Text Files already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2018-02-15 01:17 -0800
Re: Text Files gordonb.ea2mq@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) - 2018-02-14 11:10 -0600
Re: Text Files "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2018-02-14 12:28 -0500
Re: Text Files jt@toerring.de (Jens Thoms Toerring) - 2018-02-14 21:07 +0000
Re: Text Files Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-02-14 15:31 -0700
Re: Text Files Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-02-15 06:59 +0000
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-15 10:20 +0000
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-14 22:51 +0000
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-15 11:04 +0100
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-15 06:16 -0800
Re: Text Files "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2018-02-15 22:22 +0800
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-15 15:58 +0100
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-15 16:31 +0000
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-15 21:31 +0100
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-15 21:21 +0000
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-15 22:17 +0000
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-15 23:36 +0000
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-15 23:48 +0000
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-16 10:09 +0100
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-16 12:57 +0000
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-16 15:50 +0100
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-16 15:50 +0000
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-16 17:07 +0100
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-16 20:44 +0000
Re: Text Files Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-17 11:22 +1300
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-16 17:48 +0000
Re: Text Files GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-16 17:06 +0100
Re: Text Files Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-17 11:10 +1300
Re: Text Files supercat@casperkitty.com - 2018-02-16 14:48 -0800
Re: Text Files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-16 15:14 -0800
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-16 23:25 +0000
Re: Text Files supercat@casperkitty.com - 2018-02-16 15:50 -0800
Re: Text Files already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2018-02-16 07:19 -0800
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-16 17:13 +0100
Re: Text Files Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-02-19 17:55 +0000
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-19 19:14 +0100
Re: Text Files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-19 11:48 -0800
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-16 08:14 -0800
Re: Text Files Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2018-02-17 18:32 -0600
Re: Text Files jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2018-02-15 22:57 +0100
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-15 22:58 +0000
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-16 00:19 +0000
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-16 02:26 +0000
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-16 02:57 +0000
Re: Text Files asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2018-02-16 00:21 -0800
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-16 11:30 +0000
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-16 10:36 +0100
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-16 11:36 +0000
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-16 13:10 +0100
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-16 12:25 +0000
Re: Text Files Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2018-03-06 19:33 +0000
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-06 20:55 +0000
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-16 04:42 -0800
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-16 16:58 +0100
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-16 20:02 +0000
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-16 21:43 +0100
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-17 04:01 -0800
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-17 13:10 +0000
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-17 05:27 -0800
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-17 14:20 +0000
Re: Text Files Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-02-16 09:04 -0700
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-16 14:31 +0000
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-16 06:42 -0800
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-16 14:58 +0000
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-16 07:23 -0800
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-16 15:24 +0000
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-16 04:13 -0800
Re: Text Files Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2018-02-16 04:29 -0800
Re: Text Files Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-02-20 16:41 +0000
Re: Text Files Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2018-02-20 09:39 -0800
Re: Text Files Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-02-20 19:16 +0000
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-15 12:46 +0000
Re: Text Files GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-15 14:52 +0100
Re: Text Files Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> - 2018-02-15 17:07 +0300
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-15 14:23 +0000
Re: Text Files Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> - 2018-02-15 18:52 +0300
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-15 14:39 +0000
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-15 15:43 +0000
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-15 20:32 +0000
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-15 22:06 +0000
Re: Text Files GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-15 23:12 +0100
Re: Text Files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-15 15:12 -0800
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-15 23:43 +0000
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-15 23:54 +0000
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-15 23:35 +0000
Re: Text Files Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2018-02-16 17:07 -0800
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-17 02:38 +0000
Re: Text Files Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-17 17:26 +1300
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-17 11:22 +0000
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-17 12:07 +0000
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-17 04:17 -0800
Re: Text Files Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.com> - 2018-02-17 16:25 +0300
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-17 07:35 -0800
Re: Text Files GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-17 15:24 +0100
Re: Text Files Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-18 11:10 +1300
Re: Text Files Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2018-02-19 12:05 -0800
Re: Text Files already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2018-02-19 15:32 -0800
Re: Text Files Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2018-02-21 10:34 -0800
Re: Text Files already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2018-02-21 15:35 -0800
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-22 00:11 +0000
Re: Text Files Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2018-02-21 18:26 -0600
Re: Text Files Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2018-02-21 21:39 -0800
Re: Text Files Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2018-02-23 03:08 -0600
Re: Text Files supercat@casperkitty.com - 2018-02-23 16:16 -0800
Re: Text Files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-23 16:46 -0800
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-24 02:49 -0800
Re: Text Files asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2018-02-24 05:16 -0800
Re: Text Files "F. Russell" <fr@random.info> - 2018-02-24 14:35 +0000
Re: Text Files Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-02-24 08:48 -0700
Re: Text Files supercat@casperkitty.com - 2018-02-25 15:09 -0800
Re: Text Files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-25 15:54 -0800
Re: Text Files supercat@casperkitty.com - 2018-02-26 11:04 -0800
Re: Text Files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-26 11:52 -0800
Re: Text Files supercat@casperkitty.com - 2018-02-26 14:12 -0800
Re: Text Files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-26 14:40 -0800
Re: Text Files already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2018-02-22 04:58 -0800
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-22 05:33 -0800
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-22 13:59 +0000
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-22 07:24 -0800
Re: Text Files supercat@casperkitty.com - 2018-02-20 12:14 -0800
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-15 21:37 +0100
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-15 21:34 +0000
Re: Text Files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-15 14:15 -0800
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-16 10:47 +0100
Re: Text Files "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2018-02-15 22:20 +0800
Re: Text Files "F. Russell" <fr@random.info> - 2018-02-15 15:24 +0000
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-15 16:05 +0000
Re: Text Files "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2018-02-16 00:22 +0800
Re: Text Files Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-02-15 13:35 -0700
Re: Text Files Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.com> - 2018-02-25 00:13 +0300
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-24 21:24 +0000
Re: Text Files Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.com> - 2018-02-25 14:55 +0300
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-25 13:00 +0000
Re: Text Files Real Troll <Real.Troll@Trolls.com> - 2018-02-24 17:35 -0400
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-24 21:36 +0000
Re: Text Files Real Troll <Real.Troll@Trolls.com> - 2018-02-24 17:45 -0400
Re: Text Files Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-02-24 22:51 +0000
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-24 23:56 +0000
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-25 00:14 +0000
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-25 00:22 +0000
Re: Text Files Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.com> - 2018-02-25 15:16 +0300
Re: Text Files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-25 15:20 -0800
Re: Text Files Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-02-25 20:27 -0700
Re: Text Files gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-02-26 06:19 +0000
Re: Text Files Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> - 2018-02-26 15:35 +0300
Re: Text Files Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2018-02-26 20:53 +0800
Grammar Patrol (Was: Text Files) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-02-26 17:54 +0000
Re: Text Files Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-02-26 15:27 +0000
Re: Text Files Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> - 2018-02-26 18:50 +0300
Re: Text Files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-26 09:26 -0800
Re: Text Files scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-02-26 19:46 +0000
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-27 09:04 +0100
Re: Text Files already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2018-02-27 00:56 -0800
Re: Text Files Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-27 22:07 +1300
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-27 14:37 +0100
Re: Text Files already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2018-02-27 07:38 -0800
Re: Text Files supercat@casperkitty.com - 2018-02-27 09:18 -0800
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-27 10:15 +0100
Re: Text Files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-27 08:53 -0800
Re: Text Files Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2018-02-26 23:14 -0800
Re: Text Files Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-02-26 08:32 -0700
Re: Text Files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-26 09:17 -0800
Re: Text Files Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2018-02-26 22:55 -0800
Re: Text Files Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.com> - 2018-02-25 15:02 +0300
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-25 20:12 +0000
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