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Groups > comp.lang.c > #126806
| From | Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.c |
| Subject | Re: Text Files |
| Date | 2018-02-16 17:48 +0000 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <87bmgo3jxk.fsf@bsb.me.uk> (permalink) |
| References | (7 earlier) <zRmhC.24616$Dt.19656@fx18.am4> <p6673c$7j6$1@dont-email.me> <nyAhC.85999$Ii5.20344@fx19.am4> <p66r3l$dt4$1@dont-email.me> <v4DhC.11285$gS1.4803@fx26.am4> |
bartc <bc@freeuk.com> writes:
> On 16/02/2018 14:50, David Brown wrote:
>> On 16/02/18 13:57, bartc wrote:
>
>>> All developed 100% using my languages and compilers.
>>
>> And if your customers are left with code that is unmaintainable because
>> you have retired and there is no one else who can update or fix the code
>> (never mind the tools behind it), then they have bought a cat in a bag.
>
> I think that happens anyway even when an application uses mainstream languages. Because it is poorly written. Or the author leaves. Or the vendor goes out of business. Or just withdraws support.
>
>> Maybe it was good enough at the time - far from all software projects
>> are expected to last forever, or be maintained. But the reality is that
>> any use of a single-person or single-company language
>
> Or single-company product?
>
> Because, of course, relying on a monstrously large language, that can only be built with the help of dozens of complex tools and tens of thousands of lines of scripts, and that is too big and complex to be completely understood by any single individual, is /much/ better.
>
>> I am sure they have done real work. That does not stop them being
>> languages specifically designed to suit /you/, the way /you/ think, and
>> the problems /you/ are trying to solve. There is no contradiction there.
>
> They were designed to solve exactly the same problems that thousands of other people wanted to solve. But they relied on someone else's slow cumbersome tools badly ported from bigger computers.
>
> And I made a living from them which is what counts.
>
> Anyway, in the case of my own tools, then these days the main tools can be expressed in portable C that can work across C compilers, and across OSes, and can be trivially built by anyone on anything. They have been made publicly available from time to time, and include these one-file C source files:
>
> qcc64.c Script language byte-code compiler
> pcc64.c Script language byte-code interpreter
> mxa64.c x64 assembler
> mcc64.c C dialect compiler (which compiles all these)
>
> On the other hand, I haven't yet, myself, been able to build my own version of CPython for Windows.
>
> I've rarely seen any open source programs as simple, self-contained or as easy to build.
>
> As a bonus, qcc works at up to 1M lines per second, mxa at up to 4M, and mcc at over 0.5M, if you're interesting in programs that are nippy.
>
>>> So it is a language design issue: C has decided not to have simple
>>> line-based input built-in, and so has Python. Even though this was
>>> common in languages as far back as Fortran.
>>
>> C's features for text input are very low level, and very limited.
>
> How high level do you think that read statement is? I've already shown that 'read a' maps to:
>
> call _qreadi4
> mov [a],rax
>
> when a is a 32-bit signed int. How much lower can it be?
>
> _qreadi4 (which reads the next item from a line buffer) is little different from atoi().
>
>> Python's are high level and very flexible, but that means it is takes a
>> little more effort for this simple case.
>
> You can have high level, and still be able to read a few numbers from
> a line.
>
> The very first programming exercise I ever did, back in '76, involved
> first reading three numbers from the console. Then deciding if those
> numbers can form the sides of a triangle.
>
> Then, reading the numbers was the easy bit.
>
> These days it would be a more challenging exercise than the main
> problem!
The languages you used are probably still around.
> What's happened?
The main thing that happened (at least with C) is that the focus on
line-oriented input has gone. It was never really very important except
for the first three programs in the book that came with the computer
(those were the days) and for numerical tasks on matrices.
C's view is that if you need three numbers, you need three numbers so
if (scanf("%d%d%d", &a, &b, &c) == 3) {
....
}
is probably what you want. The kind of programs C was designed to write
don't usually say
$ grep
Enter the pattern and a file list all on one line: \w+
No, I need a pattern and a file list: ^C
$
You can do line-oriented input, but the focus was put somewhere else.
It would have been trivial to provide a lnscanf function that never read
past a newline, but for most people,
if (fgets(line, sizeof line, stdin) &&
sscanf(line, "%d%d%d", &a, &b, &c) == 3)
will do.
I've made the point before, but I think it's worth making again, that
there are usually trade-offs in these things. The languages with simple
line-oriented input will often struggle with other things. For example,
I'm not sure how to find out if Pascal's readln procedure actually got
the data it was asked to get.
--
Ben.
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Text Files G B <gb@gb.com> - 2018-02-14 11:47 -0400
Re: Text Files Ed Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-02-14 08:45 -0800
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-14 08:47 -0800
Re: Text Files already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2018-02-15 01:17 -0800
Re: Text Files gordonb.ea2mq@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) - 2018-02-14 11:10 -0600
Re: Text Files "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2018-02-14 12:28 -0500
Re: Text Files jt@toerring.de (Jens Thoms Toerring) - 2018-02-14 21:07 +0000
Re: Text Files Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-02-14 15:31 -0700
Re: Text Files Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-02-15 06:59 +0000
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-15 10:20 +0000
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-14 22:51 +0000
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-15 11:04 +0100
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-15 06:16 -0800
Re: Text Files "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2018-02-15 22:22 +0800
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-15 15:58 +0100
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-15 16:31 +0000
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-15 21:31 +0100
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-15 21:21 +0000
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-15 22:17 +0000
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-15 23:36 +0000
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-15 23:48 +0000
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-16 10:09 +0100
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-16 12:57 +0000
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-16 15:50 +0100
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-16 15:50 +0000
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-16 17:07 +0100
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-16 20:44 +0000
Re: Text Files Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-17 11:22 +1300
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-16 17:48 +0000
Re: Text Files GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-16 17:06 +0100
Re: Text Files Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-17 11:10 +1300
Re: Text Files supercat@casperkitty.com - 2018-02-16 14:48 -0800
Re: Text Files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-16 15:14 -0800
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-16 23:25 +0000
Re: Text Files supercat@casperkitty.com - 2018-02-16 15:50 -0800
Re: Text Files already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2018-02-16 07:19 -0800
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-16 17:13 +0100
Re: Text Files Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-02-19 17:55 +0000
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-19 19:14 +0100
Re: Text Files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-19 11:48 -0800
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-16 08:14 -0800
Re: Text Files Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2018-02-17 18:32 -0600
Re: Text Files jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2018-02-15 22:57 +0100
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-15 22:58 +0000
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-16 00:19 +0000
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-16 02:26 +0000
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-16 02:57 +0000
Re: Text Files asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2018-02-16 00:21 -0800
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-16 11:30 +0000
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-16 10:36 +0100
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-16 11:36 +0000
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-16 13:10 +0100
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-16 12:25 +0000
Re: Text Files Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2018-03-06 19:33 +0000
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-06 20:55 +0000
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-16 04:42 -0800
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-16 16:58 +0100
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-16 20:02 +0000
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-16 21:43 +0100
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-17 04:01 -0800
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-17 13:10 +0000
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-17 05:27 -0800
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-17 14:20 +0000
Re: Text Files Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-02-16 09:04 -0700
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-16 14:31 +0000
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-16 06:42 -0800
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-16 14:58 +0000
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-16 07:23 -0800
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-16 15:24 +0000
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-16 04:13 -0800
Re: Text Files Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2018-02-16 04:29 -0800
Re: Text Files Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-02-20 16:41 +0000
Re: Text Files Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2018-02-20 09:39 -0800
Re: Text Files Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-02-20 19:16 +0000
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-15 12:46 +0000
Re: Text Files GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-15 14:52 +0100
Re: Text Files Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> - 2018-02-15 17:07 +0300
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-15 14:23 +0000
Re: Text Files Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> - 2018-02-15 18:52 +0300
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-15 14:39 +0000
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-15 15:43 +0000
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-15 20:32 +0000
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-15 22:06 +0000
Re: Text Files GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-15 23:12 +0100
Re: Text Files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-15 15:12 -0800
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-15 23:43 +0000
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-15 23:54 +0000
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-15 23:35 +0000
Re: Text Files Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2018-02-16 17:07 -0800
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-17 02:38 +0000
Re: Text Files Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-17 17:26 +1300
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-17 11:22 +0000
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-17 12:07 +0000
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-17 04:17 -0800
Re: Text Files Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.com> - 2018-02-17 16:25 +0300
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-17 07:35 -0800
Re: Text Files GOTHIER Nathan <nathan.gothier@gmail.com> - 2018-02-17 15:24 +0100
Re: Text Files Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-18 11:10 +1300
Re: Text Files Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2018-02-19 12:05 -0800
Re: Text Files already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2018-02-19 15:32 -0800
Re: Text Files Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2018-02-21 10:34 -0800
Re: Text Files already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2018-02-21 15:35 -0800
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-22 00:11 +0000
Re: Text Files Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2018-02-21 18:26 -0600
Re: Text Files Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2018-02-21 21:39 -0800
Re: Text Files Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2018-02-23 03:08 -0600
Re: Text Files supercat@casperkitty.com - 2018-02-23 16:16 -0800
Re: Text Files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-23 16:46 -0800
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-24 02:49 -0800
Re: Text Files asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2018-02-24 05:16 -0800
Re: Text Files "F. Russell" <fr@random.info> - 2018-02-24 14:35 +0000
Re: Text Files Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-02-24 08:48 -0700
Re: Text Files supercat@casperkitty.com - 2018-02-25 15:09 -0800
Re: Text Files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-25 15:54 -0800
Re: Text Files supercat@casperkitty.com - 2018-02-26 11:04 -0800
Re: Text Files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-26 11:52 -0800
Re: Text Files supercat@casperkitty.com - 2018-02-26 14:12 -0800
Re: Text Files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-26 14:40 -0800
Re: Text Files already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2018-02-22 04:58 -0800
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-22 05:33 -0800
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-22 13:59 +0000
Re: Text Files Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2018-02-22 07:24 -0800
Re: Text Files supercat@casperkitty.com - 2018-02-20 12:14 -0800
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-15 21:37 +0100
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-15 21:34 +0000
Re: Text Files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-15 14:15 -0800
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-16 10:47 +0100
Re: Text Files "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2018-02-15 22:20 +0800
Re: Text Files "F. Russell" <fr@random.info> - 2018-02-15 15:24 +0000
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-15 16:05 +0000
Re: Text Files "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2018-02-16 00:22 +0800
Re: Text Files Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-02-15 13:35 -0700
Re: Text Files Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.com> - 2018-02-25 00:13 +0300
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-24 21:24 +0000
Re: Text Files Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.com> - 2018-02-25 14:55 +0300
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-25 13:00 +0000
Re: Text Files Real Troll <Real.Troll@Trolls.com> - 2018-02-24 17:35 -0400
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-24 21:36 +0000
Re: Text Files Real Troll <Real.Troll@Trolls.com> - 2018-02-24 17:45 -0400
Re: Text Files Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-02-24 22:51 +0000
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-24 23:56 +0000
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-25 00:14 +0000
Re: Text Files bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-02-25 00:22 +0000
Re: Text Files Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.com> - 2018-02-25 15:16 +0300
Re: Text Files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-25 15:20 -0800
Re: Text Files Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-02-25 20:27 -0700
Re: Text Files gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-02-26 06:19 +0000
Re: Text Files Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> - 2018-02-26 15:35 +0300
Re: Text Files Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2018-02-26 20:53 +0800
Grammar Patrol (Was: Text Files) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2018-02-26 17:54 +0000
Re: Text Files Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-02-26 15:27 +0000
Re: Text Files Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> - 2018-02-26 18:50 +0300
Re: Text Files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-26 09:26 -0800
Re: Text Files scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-02-26 19:46 +0000
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-27 09:04 +0100
Re: Text Files already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2018-02-27 00:56 -0800
Re: Text Files Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2018-02-27 22:07 +1300
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-27 14:37 +0100
Re: Text Files already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2018-02-27 07:38 -0800
Re: Text Files supercat@casperkitty.com - 2018-02-27 09:18 -0800
Re: Text Files David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-02-27 10:15 +0100
Re: Text Files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-27 08:53 -0800
Re: Text Files Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2018-02-26 23:14 -0800
Re: Text Files Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-02-26 08:32 -0700
Re: Text Files Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2018-02-26 09:17 -0800
Re: Text Files Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2018-02-26 22:55 -0800
Re: Text Files Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.com> - 2018-02-25 15:02 +0300
Re: Text Files Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2018-02-25 20:12 +0000
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