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Re: Astronomy and programming languages

From Alex <alex@rivadpm.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: Astronomy and programming languages
Date 2017-06-12 11:48 +0100
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <ohlrad$9an$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (15 earlier) <ohk1uf$2qg$2@dont-email.me> <ohk47f$sn4$7@news.albasani.net> <ohk824$p05$1@dont-email.me> <ohk8jb$ql9$1@dont-email.me> <ohl0pp$lh9$1@news.albasani.net>

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On 6/12/2017 04:11, Melzzzzz wrote:
> On 2017-06-11, Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> wrote:
>> On 6/11/2017 21:13, Alex wrote:
>>> On 6/11/2017 20:04, Melzzzzz wrote:
>>>> On 2017-06-11, Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 6/11/2017 19:24, Melzzzzz wrote:
>>>>>> On 2017-06-11, Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 6/11/2017 19:03, Melzzzzz wrote:
>>>>>>>> Heh, non mutable data means non destructive update. That means if you
>>>>>>>> want to update something, you allocate new block then release old
>>>>>>>> one.
>>>>>>>> Take for example that principle on ZFS or BTRFS. Performance is
>>>>>>>> abysmal
>>>>>>>> for database transactions and VM images ;p
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, CoW or log structured file system performance is not abysmal
>>>>>>> for dbs
>>>>>>> or VMs. Do you have any evidence for that?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just look it up. You does not have to be Einstein in order to figure
>>>>>> that out...
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think you know what you're talking about. I'm asking you to
>>>>> justify your assertion.
>>>>>
>>>> https://blog.pgaddict.com/posts/friends-dont-let-friends-use-btrfs-for-oltp
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I have been involved in a lot of benchmarking of filesystems and storage
>>> arrays. This is amateur hour stuff.
>>>
>>> One guy on the internet posts up some shit benchmark where he can't even
>>> be bothered to describe the test, but he has some nice graphs and blog
>>> and a theory and top output *from a completely different system*, and
>>> hey presto; it gets used as justification by others, and an entire piece
>>> of tech is trashed.
>>>
>>
>> PS, in the interests of fairness, you are about 1/4 right and 3/4s wrong
>>    with your generalization.
>>
> In what way I am wrong?
> You basically claim that allocating new block then releasing old one when
> performing update, have same performance as updating in place?
> It is *well known* fact that copy on write file systems have bad
> performance regarding VM images and databases. I haven't learned that by
> myself. I can't see how 'professional' benchmark can show otherwise...
> 

The bit where you're (almost) right is in reference to btrfs. Its design 
criteria did not appear to specifically include good performance for 
random I/O; it focussed on reliability, fault tolerance and easy admin. 
I would agree that it is (from my perspective as someone who follows 
theses things) still a little immature 
https://btrfs.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Gotchas.

ZFS is a completely different filesystem design from btrfs. There are 
benchmarks of this and other CoW/logstruct file systems at SPC 
(http://www.storageperformance.org/home/). Some CoW/logstruct file 
systems also support traditional block access over iSCSI or fibre 
channel; notably NetApp systems (disclosure: that's where I work).

These systems regularly beat equivalent traditional systems in both 
random and sequential I/O performance. So allocating a new block then 
releasing old one when performing updates can have far superior 
performance to updating in place (and that's true of both traditional 
spinning disk and SSD).

The link you pointed to shows why amateur benchmarking can go horribly 
wrong; first, it fails to even document what hardware was used, and what 
OS, what mount options, and so on. Second, it appears (but I can't tell 
exactly, since there's so little detail) that perhaps the "ssd" option 
was selected for the test. That is just going to ruin the performance 
straight out of the box. It is, to be frank, little more than a hatchet 
job, and if I was a btrfs developer, I'd be seriously annoyed.

-- 
Alex

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Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-03 09:09 +0000
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-06-03 04:38 -0700
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-03 13:45 +0000
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-06-03 08:46 -0700
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-03 18:49 +0000
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-03 18:48 +0000
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-06-03 13:33 -0700
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-03 22:34 +0000
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-04 03:05 -0500
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-06-03 05:58 -0700
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-06-03 06:01 -0700
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-03 13:37 +0000
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2017-06-03 07:28 -0700
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-10 17:31 +0000
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages mhx@iae.nl - 2017-06-03 08:21 -0700
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 12:01 -0700
          Re: Astronomy and programming languages mhx@iae.nl - 2017-06-03 13:09 -0700
          Re: Astronomy and programming languages mhx@iae.nl - 2017-06-03 13:20 -0700
            Re: Astronomy and programming languages Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 18:30 -0700
            Re: Astronomy and programming languages Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 18:43 -0700
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-10 17:52 +0000
            Re: Astronomy and programming languages Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 19:15 -0700
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages mhx@iae.nl - 2017-06-04 00:19 -0700
            Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-10 17:39 +0000
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages NN <november.nihal@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 06:57 -0700
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-03 14:48 +0000
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages NN <november.nihal@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 11:12 -0700
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-06 06:28 -0700
          Re: Astronomy and programming languages minforth@arcor.de - 2017-06-06 06:56 -0700
          Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-07 19:40 +0000
          Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-08 05:10 -0500
            Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-08 04:28 -0700
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-08 07:20 -0500
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-09 04:08 -0500
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-09 02:31 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-06-09 03:54 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-09 05:00 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-06-09 04:03 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-09 08:37 -0500
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-06-09 09:27 -0700
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-06-03 13:49 -0500
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-04 03:11 -0500
          Re: Astronomy and programming languages Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-06-04 17:20 -0700
            Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-07 03:10 -0500
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-07 19:41 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-08 11:48 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-09 17:25 +0000
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-06-10 00:31 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-10 08:18 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-06-16 00:23 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-16 07:40 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-11 02:21 -0500
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2017-06-14 23:36 -0700
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-06-03 13:53 -0500
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages mhx@iae.nl - 2017-06-03 08:04 -0700
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 11:29 -0400
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2017-06-03 08:55 -0700
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 09:57 -0700
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-06-03 10:35 -0700
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-06-03 19:44 +0200
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 10:15 -0700
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-06 06:20 -0700
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-06-06 07:13 -0700
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages minforth@arcor.de - 2017-06-06 08:21 -0700
          Re: Astronomy and programming languages Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-06-06 09:05 -0700
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-06-06 23:49 -0700
          Re: Astronomy and programming languages Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-06-07 00:58 -0700
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-06-07 16:05 -0400
          Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-07 20:26 +0000
            Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-07 14:00 -0700
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-06-07 15:46 -0700
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-07 23:06 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-08 01:24 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-09 17:27 +0000
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-07 23:08 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-06-07 22:26 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-08 01:29 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-06-08 08:28 -0400
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-06-08 08:02 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-08 01:26 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-09 17:30 +0000
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-08 05:17 -0500
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-06-08 04:37 -0700
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-08 07:28 -0500
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-09 17:33 +0000
            Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-08 11:46 +0000
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-09 17:35 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-10 02:18 -0500
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-10 07:54 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-10 08:00 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-10 08:38 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-11 17:53 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-11 18:03 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-11 18:17 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-11 18:23 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-06-11 19:21 +0100
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-11 18:24 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-06-11 19:28 +0100
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-11 19:04 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-06-11 21:13 +0100
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-06-11 21:22 +0100
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-12 03:11 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-12 07:38 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-12 08:13 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-06-12 11:22 +0100
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-06-12 11:48 +0100
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-12 13:58 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2017-06-13 02:19 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-06-10 13:16 +0000
                Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-11 17:53 +0000
            Re: Astronomy and programming languages Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-06-08 08:28 -0400
              Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-09 17:38 +0000
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-06-03 12:23 -0500
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-06-03 10:27 -0700
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-03 18:46 +0000
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 12:42 -0700
    Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-03 22:24 +0000
      Re: Astronomy and programming languages Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-06-03 15:34 -0700
        Re: Astronomy and programming languages "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-06-03 22:55 +0000
  Re: Astronomy and programming languages Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-06-10 10:27 -0700
  A Small Challenge (Re: Astronomy and programming languages) Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-06-12 22:20 -0700
    Re: A Small Challenge (Re: Astronomy and programming languages) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-06-12 22:52 -0700
    Re: A Small Challenge (Re: Astronomy and programming languages) Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2017-06-13 10:04 -0400
    Re: A Small Challenge (Re: Astronomy and programming languages) minforth@arcor.de - 2017-06-13 07:30 -0700
    Re: A Small Challenge (Re: Astronomy and programming languages) Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-06-13 10:52 -0500

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