Re: Flash

From	Alex <alex@rivadpm.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: Flash
Date	2017-05-07 16:31 +0100
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<oeneeu$akg$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(5 earlier) <2017May6.182659@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <BdKdne7S8sckfJPEnZ2dnUU7-bednZ2d@supernews.com> <2017May7.125137@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <b9SdnYhKwvB4hpLEnZ2dnUU7-aPNnZ2d@supernews.com> <2017May7.155729@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>

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On 5/7/2017 14:57, Anton Ertl wrote:
> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes:
>> Anton Ertl <anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
>>> |typical block sizes are e.g. 64KB for a 4MB NOR flash, 64KB for a
>>> |256MB NAND flash, 128KB for a 512MB NAND flash

NOR flash is a dying market. Nobody wants the stuff, & it's too 
expensive to fab at high densities.

>>
>> OK, but I don't understand what the block size has to do with
>> anything.  If a physical block is larger than 1k, BLOCK will still
>> work just fine, so I'm left scratching my head about what the problem
>> might be.
> 
> With a 64KB erase block size, writing one 1KB block means reading the
> 64KB into RAM, copying the 1KB, into the buffer, erasing the 64KB on
> the flash device, and then writing the 64KB back.  That's not what I
> consider "perfect".

3D NAND parts now have page sizes of 16KB and blocksizes of 16MB; that's 
without the ECC bits, which are another 2KB/2MB or so on top. Erase is 
hugely expensive in terms of latency on these parts.

> 
>> SSDs use NAND flash AFAIK, and work well with block-based file
>> systems.  But somehow NAND flash won't work with BLOCK.
> 
> SSDs have extra hardware plus a lot of firmware smarts (called flash
> translation layer) so that they behave acceptably in the usual case
> for the usual file systems.  I.e., they put a lot of effort into
> simulating a disk drive that was the inspiration for blocks.  You
> don't want to put that kind of effort into the implementation of
> blocks on an embedded controller with access to raw flash.  Instead,
> the Forth way is to use an interface that is appropriate for flash.

Most of them, when faced with a page update that requires a block erase, 
move the block to be erased to another free block on the device, and 
then do the update without support from the requester. This can be a 
major cause of jitter. Some simply remap the block and the pages within 
it in internal block assignment tables. But when you run out of fresh 
blocks, something has to be erased, and that's when the performance 
problems start.

A lot implement block based log structured file systems internally. The 
industry went with disk based Flash because it was an easily implemented 
technology. But the limitations are very clear (bandwidth is one; 
160MB/s on sequential writes is considered excellent, but it's where we 
are with the humble spinning disks).

-- 
Alex

Thread

Recognizers discussion Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-02 15:27 +0100
  Recognizers discussion lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-05-02 07:52 -0700
    Re: Recognizers discussion Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-05-02 08:19 -0700
      Re: Recognizers discussion lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-05-02 08:27 -0700
    Re: Recognizers discussion Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-02 19:55 +0100
      Re: Recognizers discussion lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-05-03 02:38 -0700
        Re: Recognizers discussion anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-04 15:16 +0000
  Re: Recognizers discussion Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-02 17:05 +0100
    Re: Recognizers discussion Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-02 17:23 +0100
      Re: Recognizers discussion Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-02 17:26 +0100
      Re: Recognizers discussion Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-02 13:03 -0500
        Re: Recognizers discussion Matthias Trute <matthias.trute@gmail.com> - 2017-05-02 12:44 -0700
          Re: Recognizers discussion Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-03 04:36 -0500
        Re: Recognizers discussion anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-04 13:28 +0000
          Re: Recognizers discussion Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-04 09:13 -0500
  Re: Recognizers discussion Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-02 12:35 -0500
    Re: Recognizers discussion Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-02 18:53 +0100
      Re: Recognizers discussion Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-02 13:10 -0500
        Re: Recognizers discussion Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-02 19:22 +0100
        Re: Recognizers discussion Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2017-05-02 22:53 +0000
          Re: Recognizers discussion Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2017-05-03 07:39 +0100
            Re: Recognizers discussion Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-03 10:58 +0100
            Re: Recognizers discussion anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-04 13:53 +0000
            Re: Recognizers discussion Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2017-05-06 01:21 +0000
            Re: Recognizers discussion pahihu <pahihu@gmail.com> - 2017-05-06 00:22 -0700
              Re: Recognizers discussion Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2017-05-06 23:05 +0100
                Re: Recognizers discussion pahihu <pahihu@gmail.com> - 2017-05-06 22:36 -0700
          Re: Recognizers discussion Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-03 04:38 -0500
            Re: Recognizers discussion minforth@arcor.de - 2017-05-03 04:49 -0700
              Re: Recognizers discussion Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-05-03 05:03 -0700
                Re: Recognizers discussion Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-03 09:02 -0500
                Re: Recognizers discussion Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-05-03 07:45 -0700
                Re: Recognizers discussion Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-03 11:24 -0500
                Re: Recognizers discussion Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-05-03 09:45 -0700
                Re: Recognizers discussion Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-05-03 10:08 -0700
                Re: Recognizers discussion "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-09 15:56 +0000
                Re: Recognizers discussion Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-03 18:37 +0100
                Re: Recognizers discussion Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-05-03 11:07 -0700
                Re: Recognizers discussion Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-03 20:55 +0100
                Re: Recognizers discussion Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-04 02:47 -0500
                Re: Recognizers discussion Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-04 13:07 +0100
                Re: Recognizers discussion Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-04 07:59 -0500
                Re: Recognizers discussion Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-04 17:38 +0100
                Re: Recognizers discussion Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-04 12:42 -0500
                Re: Recognizers discussion Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-04 02:43 -0500
                Re: Recognizers discussion Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-04 13:05 +0100
                Re: Recognizers discussion Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-05-04 15:10 +0300
                Re: Recognizers discussion Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-04 13:25 +0100
                Re: Recognizers discussion Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-05-04 15:33 +0300
                Re: Recognizers discussion Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-04 08:05 -0500
                Re: Recognizers discussion "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-09 15:54 +0000
                Re: Recognizers discussion Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-09 11:10 -0500
                Re: Recognizers discussion "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-10 11:49 +0000
                Re: Recognizers discussion anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-04 16:14 +0000
                Re: Recognizers discussion Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-04 13:02 -0500
                Re: Recognizers discussion Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2017-05-05 23:29 +0000
                Re: Recognizers discussion Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-07 03:56 -0500
                Re: Recognizers discussion Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2017-05-07 22:42 +0000
                Re: Recognizers discussion Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-08 04:08 -0500
                Re: Recognizers discussion Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-05-03 08:51 -0700
                Re: Recognizers discussion Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-05-03 09:38 -0700
                Re: Recognizers discussion Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-05-03 09:59 -0700
                Re: Recognizers discussion Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2017-05-03 10:16 -0700
                Re: Recognizers discussion albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-03 22:04 +0200
                Re: Recognizers discussion minforth@arcor.de - 2017-05-03 22:09 -0700
                Re: Recognizers discussion Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-05-07 19:50 -0700
                Re: Recognizers discussion "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-05-07 21:33 -1000
                Re: Recognizers discussion Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-08 04:12 -0500
                Re: Recognizers discussion Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-05-08 20:21 -0700
                FP stack (was: Recognizers discussion) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-08 12:35 +0000
                Re: FP stack (was: Recognizers discussion) Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-05-08 20:50 -0700
                Re: FP stack Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-09 03:39 -0500
                Re: FP stack Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-05-09 20:59 -0700
                Re: FP stack Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-05-10 00:03 -0700
                Re: FP stack Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-10 08:10 +0100
                Re: FP stack "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-05-09 21:24 -1000
                Re: FP stack Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-05-10 00:37 -0700
                Re: FP stack "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-05-09 22:53 -1000
                Re: FP stack Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-10 08:53 +0100
                Re: FP stack Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-05-10 11:00 +0300
                Re: FP stack Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-05-10 01:02 -0700
                Re: FP stack Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-05-10 11:06 +0300
                Re: FP stack anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-10 09:58 +0000
                Re: FP stack Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2017-05-10 14:17 +0300
                Re: FP stack Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-10 13:09 +0100
                Re: FP stack anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-10 15:05 +0000
                Re: FP stack albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-10 11:43 +0200
                Re: FP stack "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-10 18:34 +1000
                Re: FP stack anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-10 09:45 +0000
                Re: FP stack "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-11 19:13 +1000
                Re: FP stack Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-11 04:50 -0500
                Re: FP stack anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-11 16:18 +0000
                Re: FP stack Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-11 12:12 -0500
                Re: FP stack stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2017-05-11 13:53 +0000
                Re: FP stack anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-11 15:43 +0000
                Re: FP stack Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-05-12 08:48 -0700
                Re: FP stack anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-11 16:31 +0000
                Re: FP stack "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-05-11 10:18 -1000
                Re: FP stack Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-11 15:37 -0500
                Re: FP stack "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-05-11 17:25 -1000
                Re: FP stack Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-11 22:55 -0500
                Re: FP stack "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-13 14:24 +1000
                Re: FP stack albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-13 13:44 +0200
                Re: FP stack Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-10 05:58 -0500
                Re: FP stack (was: Recognizers discussion) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-09 13:50 +0000
                Re: FP stack (was: Recognizers discussion) Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-05-10 00:25 -0700
                Re: FP stack (was: Recognizers discussion) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-10 11:39 +0000
                Re: FP stack (was: Recognizers discussion) Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-05-10 11:49 -0700
                Re: FP stack (was: Recognizers discussion) "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-09 21:15 +1000
                Re: Recognizers discussion "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-09 14:16 +1000
              Re: Recognizers discussion Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-03 08:57 -0500
                Re: Recognizers discussion minforth@arcor.de - 2017-05-03 07:54 -0700
                Re: Recognizers discussion Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-03 11:30 -0500
                Re: Recognizers discussion Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-03 14:05 -0500
                Re: Recognizers discussion Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-03 18:42 +0100
                Re: Recognizers discussion Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-04 02:51 -0500
                Re: Recognizers discussion "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-04 22:29 +1000
                Re: Recognizers discussion Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-04 13:41 +0100
                Re: Recognizers discussion Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-04 09:06 -0500
                Re: Recognizers discussion "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-15 12:22 +0000
                Re: Recognizers discussion Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-15 07:36 -0500
                Re: Recognizers discussion "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-18 21:21 +0000
                Re: Recognizers discussion "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-18 21:24 +0000
                Re: Recognizers discussion albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-04 20:17 +0200
                Re: Recognizers discussion "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-05 11:03 +1000
                Re: Recognizers discussion minforth@arcor.de - 2017-05-05 00:16 -0700
                Re: Recognizers discussion JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2017-05-05 13:15 -0700
                Re: Recognizers discussion "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-06 16:49 +1000
                Re: Recognizers discussion Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-05 21:00 +0100
      Re: Recognizers discussion "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-09 14:17 +0000
        Re: Recognizers discussion Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-09 15:46 +0100
          Re: Recognizers discussion "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-10 11:50 +0000
            Re: Recognizers discussion Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-10 13:11 +0100
              Re: Recognizers discussion "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-10 13:49 +0000
                Re: Recognizers discussion Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-10 15:57 +0100
                Re: Recognizers discussion "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-12 14:17 +0000
  Re: Recognizers discussion "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-05-02 09:25 -1000
    Re: Recognizers discussion albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-03 01:19 +0200
    Re: Recognizers discussion "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-05 15:50 +0000
      Re: Recognizers discussion "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-08 11:43 +1000
        Re: Recognizers discussion "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-08 19:17 +0000
          Re: Recognizers discussion anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-09 14:25 +0000
            Re: Recognizers discussion "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-05-09 21:22 -1000
              Re: Recognizers discussion "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-13 13:33 +1000
                Re: Recognizers discussion "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-05-12 21:32 -1000
                Re: Recognizers discussion Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2017-05-13 07:12 -0700
                Re: Recognizers discussion "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-13 14:30 +0000
  Re: Recognizers discussion rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-04 11:37 -0400
    Re: Recognizers discussion Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-04 17:51 +0100
      Re: Recognizers discussion anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-05 07:31 +0000
        Re: Recognizers discussion Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-05-05 20:35 +0200
          Re: Recognizers discussion minforth@arcor.de - 2017-05-05 12:27 -0700
          Re: Recognizers discussion Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-05 15:03 -0500
          Re: Recognizers discussion anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-06 16:26 +0000
            Re: Recognizers discussion Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-06 18:17 +0100
              Re: Recognizers discussion Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2017-05-06 12:26 -0700
                Re: Recognizers discussion Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-06 21:39 +0100
            Re: Recognizers discussion Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-07 03:58 -0500
              Re: Recognizers discussion Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-07 10:39 +0100
                Re: Recognizers discussion Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2017-05-07 23:39 +0000
                Re: Recognizers discussion Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-05-07 17:38 -0700
                Re: Recognizers discussion anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-08 13:40 +0000
                Re: Recognizers discussion anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-08 13:25 +0000
                Re: Recognizers discussion Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-05-08 16:25 +0200
              Flash (was: Recognizers discussion) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-07 10:51 +0000
                Re: Flash Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-07 08:06 -0500
                Re: Flash anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-07 13:57 +0000
                Re: Flash Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-05-07 16:46 +0200
                Re: Flash Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-07 16:31 +0100
                Re: Flash anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-07 17:16 +0000
                Re: Flash Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-07 19:18 +0100
                Re: Flash albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-07 21:45 +0200
                Re: Flash Matthias Trute <matthias.trute@gmail.com> - 2017-05-07 12:54 -0700
                Re: Flash Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-07 19:33 +0100
                Re: Flash Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-05-07 08:50 -0700
                Re: Flash anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-07 17:21 +0000
    Re: Recognizers discussion Matthias Trute <matthias.trute@gmail.com> - 2017-05-04 10:07 -0700

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