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Re: Vaccinations

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On 2/9/2017 8:56 AM, David Brown wrote:
> On 09/02/17 13:20, rickman wrote:
>> On 2/9/2017 6:54 AM, David Brown wrote:
>
>>> No, it is not ill-informed - it is just not blowing things out of
>>> proportion.  I am a strong vaccine supporter.  I expect that eventually
>>> the chickenpox vaccine will become part of the standard vaccination
>>> routines in most western countries, including Norway.  I agree that it
>>> is better to be vaccinated against it than to get it.  And I have
>>> absolutely nothing against vaccines.
>>
>> Ok, then you agree with me.  Your other statements don't sound like that.
>>
>>
>>> But I don't see chickenpox as a serious problem here.  The prime reason
>>> for vaccinating against chickenpox is economic - it is cheaper to
>>> vaccinate kids than to have a parent stay home for a week looking after
>>> a spotty but otherwise healthy child.
>>
>> Who's saying chickenpox is a serious problem.  We are talking about an
>> irresponsible act of infecting children with chickenpox so they will "be
>> done with it" rather than getting the vaccine.
>
> In America, and a couple of other countries (Germany and Lithuania, I
> think), chickenpox vaccine is widespread, standardised, and free.  In
> most other countries it is available for those that need it or
> particularly ask for it, but otherwise it is not mainstream.  Maybe it
> will become standard here too - but currently, it is not.  The
> chickenpox vaccine is not an urgent matter, and it will take a good long
> time before the various boards and committees decide to view it as
> standard, and to implement it.
>
> In the meantime, kids will get chickenpox here.  You can pretty much
> guarantee it, unless you raise your family alone on a mountain
> somewhere.  Once the child is no longer a small baby, getting chickenpox
> is not a problem - and the younger they get it, the better.  So the
> rational action is to get the matter over and done with as soon as
> practically possible.  It is not "irresponsible" - it is practical and
> sensible.  It is infecting the child with a mild disease (chickenpox
> when young) to protect them from getting a serious disease (chickenpox
> when older) - basically, it is the same concept as vaccination, just
> that even mild chickenpox is more unpleasant than a vaccine.

You are ignoring the facts.  People are accustomed to chickenpox being 
of little consequence, but there *are* complications even if not common. 
  More importantly being infected with chickenpox is a lifelong 
condition which causes shingles.  My family had never heard of shingles 
when I was a kid or they didn't know it was caused by chickenpox.  We 
now know better.  If you persist in denying the facts you are being 
irresponsible.

I don't care what country you are in or if it is "standard" to get the 
vaccine or not, the facts are that the vaccine is much preferred over 
getting chickenpox and potentially shingles, both of which are diseases 
and can kill.


> When my youngest kid got chickenpox, the vaccine was not really an
> option.  It was not something publicised, nor something offered or
> recommend by doctors except for those with particular needs.  (And when
> he was small, our youngest was given an extraordinarily expensive
> vaccine against a relatively rare lung virus due to his weak lungs - if
> his doctors felt that chickenpox was at all risky, he would have got the
> vaccine.)

At one time doctors used leaches.  We now have vaccine available and it 
is much preferred over getting sick.


> Now, the chickenpox vaccine is a bit more common here.  If my kids
> hadn't had chickenpox, I would no doubt have had them vaccinated.  But
> at the time, there were perhaps 200 people in the whole country that got
> the vaccine.  I am not sure why the chickenpox vaccine has been standard
> in the USA for 15 years or so, but it very rare in most European
> countries, but that's the way it is.

Rare that people get it perhaps, but if you ask for it I expect it is 
available.  There is no reason to take even the small risk of 
complications from chickenpox and the much larger risk of the dangers of 
shingles.


>>> By overstating the risks of a minor disease like chickenpox, you also
>>> lose ground in the /real/ battle about vaccinations, especially in the
>>> USA.  The problem is not about vaccinating against every minor childhood
>>> disease - it is making sure that all children are vaccinated against the
>>> /major/ ones.  When you fuss about wanting vaccines for something as
>>> minor as chickenpox, you will be viewed as categorising it together with
>>> serious diseases like measles.  When you tell the vaccine sceptic that
>>> their kids should be vaccinated against chickenpox and measles, they say
>>> "our kid has had chickenpox - he had spots for a couple of days.  I
>>> guess measles is much the same, so no need for a vaccine there either".
>>>  (Yes, you are dealing with irrational people there.)
>>
>> There you go again.  I had a friend who nearly died of shingles.  Yes,
>> nearly died.  You just don't get it.
>
> People who get seriously ill from shingles are usually old or have
> otherwise weakened immune systems.  They are mostly high risk for almost
> any disease.  (There are always exceptions - but policy here should be
> based on statistics, not individuals, no matter how unpleasant a disease
> might be for a particularly unlucky person.)

Irrelevant.  Shingles can be prevented by not infecting every child with 
chickenpox.


> The chickenpox vaccine, given as a child, does not protect fully against
> shingles.  The weakened virus in the vaccine can hide in the nervous
> system just like the normal virus, and can burst out as a variety of
> shingles many decades later.  And there is currently no reason to
> suppose that the immunity inferred by the vaccine as a child will
> protect you against chickenpox and/or shingles in later life.

Now you are being silly.  No vaccine is 100%, is that a reason to not 
use it?

Argue this among yourselves.  I'm done with it.

-- 

Rick C

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Vaccinations Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-02-06 17:50 -0700
  Re: Vaccinations bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-06 16:55 -0800
    Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-06 21:26 -0500
  Re: Vaccinations Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-02-06 17:56 -0700
    Re: Vaccinations "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-02-06 17:01 -0800
    Re: Vaccinations Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-02-06 18:04 -0700
    Re: Vaccinations Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-02-07 12:21 +1100
      Re: Vaccinations Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-02-06 18:57 -0700
        Re: Vaccinations Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-02-07 13:17 +1100
          Re: Vaccinations Rheilly Phoull <rheilly@bigslong.com> - 2017-02-07 10:22 +0800
          Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-06 21:35 -0500
            Re: Vaccinations Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-02-07 13:39 +1100
              Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-06 23:31 -0500
          Re: Vaccinations Martin Riddle <martin_ridd@verizon.net> - 2017-02-06 22:47 -0500
          Re: Vaccinations John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-06 20:46 -0800
            Re: Vaccinations bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com - 2017-02-07 02:20 -0800
            Re: Vaccinations dplatt@coop.radagast.org (Dave Platt) - 2017-02-07 11:30 -0800
              Re: Vaccinations John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-07 12:03 -0800
                Re: Vaccinations Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-02-08 18:22 +0800
                Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 05:23 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-02-08 18:39 +0800
                Re: Vaccinations bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-08 06:12 -0800
                Re: Vaccinations David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-08 15:38 +0100
                Re: Vaccinations M Philbrook <jamie_ka1lpa@charter.net> - 2017-02-09 19:27 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-09 16:59 -0800
                Re: Vaccinations bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-08 06:09 -0800
                Re: Vaccinations David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-08 15:39 +0100
                Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 17:05 -0500
        Re: Vaccinations Martin Riddle <martin_ridd@verizon.net> - 2017-02-06 22:45 -0500
        Re: Vaccinations Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-07 08:21 +0000
    Re: Vaccinations Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-07 08:19 +0000
      Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-07 04:20 -0500
        Re: Vaccinations Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-07 09:42 +0000
    Re: Vaccinations Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-02-07 17:57 +0000
      Re: Vaccinations Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-02-07 11:12 -0700
        Re: Vaccinations "tom" <tmiller11147@verizon.net> - 2017-02-07 15:43 -0500
          Re: Vaccinations krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-07 21:15 -0500
            Re: Vaccinations amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-02-08 07:46 -0600
              Re: Vaccinations krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-08 12:45 -0500
              Re: Vaccinations dplatt@coop.radagast.org (Dave Platt) - 2017-02-08 11:33 -0800
                Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 17:19 -0500
            Re: Vaccinations Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-02-08 17:57 +0000
              Re: Vaccinations krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-08 13:16 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations Martin Brown <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-02-08 18:32 +0000
                Re: Vaccinations Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-02-08 12:09 -0700
        Re: Vaccinations John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2017-02-07 21:08 +0000
          Re: Vaccinations David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-08 12:45 +0100
            Re: Vaccinations Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-02-08 18:00 +0000
              Re: Vaccinations krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-08 13:16 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-02-08 11:28 -0700
                Re: Vaccinations krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-08 20:33 -0500
              Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 17:26 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-02-08 23:09 +0000
                Re: Vaccinations Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-02-08 15:33 -0800
                Re: Vaccinations bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-08 15:42 -0800
                Re: Vaccinations Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-08 23:43 +0000
                Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 20:56 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-09 10:58 +0100
                Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-09 05:35 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-09 12:54 +0100
                Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-09 07:20 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-09 13:38 +0000
                Re: Vaccinations David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-09 14:56 +0100
                Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-09 17:47 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-09 17:16 -0800
                Re: Vaccinations Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-09 16:40 +0000
                Re: Vaccinations amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-02-09 11:04 -0600
                Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-09 17:46 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-02-09 09:15 -0600
                Re: Vaccinations Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-02-10 16:36 +0000
                Re: Vaccinations bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-10 16:41 -0800
          Re: Vaccinations John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-08 09:12 -0800
            Re: Vaccinations Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-02-08 09:36 -0800
              Re: Vaccinations John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-08 12:40 -0800
            Re: Vaccinations Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-02-08 11:51 -0700
            Re: Vaccinations John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2017-02-09 15:02 +0000
              Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-09 17:46 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-02-10 16:52 +0000
                Re: Vaccinations bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-10 16:46 -0800
              Re: Vaccinations krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-09 21:12 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-09 19:01 -0800
                Re: Vaccinations John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2017-02-10 08:23 +0000
                Re: Vaccinations krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-10 12:23 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2017-02-10 18:09 +0000
      Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-07 16:31 -0500
  Re: Vaccinations artie <artie.m@gNOSPAMmail.com> - 2017-02-06 17:28 -0800
    Re: Vaccinations Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-02-06 19:11 -0700
      Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-06 21:34 -0500
  Re: Vaccinations Frank Miles <fpm@u.washington.edu> - 2017-02-07 01:52 +0000

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