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Groups > sci.electronics.design > #446999
| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | sci.electronics.design |
| Subject | Re: Vaccinations |
| Date | 2017-02-09 07:20 -0500 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <o7hmnq$90a$1@dont-email.me> (permalink) |
| References | (6 earlier) <o7fmc5$k8$3@dont-email.me> <o7g5r4$3l8$1@dont-email.me> <o7hebv$8bo$1@dont-email.me> <o7hght$fja$1@dont-email.me> <o7hl5o$umg$1@dont-email.me> |
On 2/9/2017 6:54 AM, David Brown wrote: > On 09/02/17 11:35, rickman wrote: >> On 2/9/2017 4:58 AM, David Brown wrote: >>> On 08/02/17 23:26, rickman wrote: >>>> On 2/8/2017 1:00 PM, Cursitor Doom wrote: >>>>> On Wed, 08 Feb 2017 12:45:35 +0100, David Brown wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Chicken pox is almost always mild if you get it as a kid - the younger >>>>>> the better (but not babies - you need to have a more developed immune >>>>>> system). The people who suffer badly from chicken pox are usually >>>>>> teenagers or adults. It is common that when a kindergarten kid gets >>>>>> chicken pox, the parents hold a "chicken pox party" so that lots of >>>>>> other kindergarten kids can come and get it at an early age where all >>>>>> they get is a few spots and possibly a night of mild fever. >>>>> >>>>> In the good old days when sanity reined, yes. But I would imagine that >>>>> today Big Pharma and the CDC would have something to say about such >>>>> practices. >>>> >>>> Chickenpox is not always innocuous, being downright dangerous to others >>>> around the infected child such as a pregnant woman, and a vaccine is >>>> available. Why on earth would anyone want to be infected with a disease >>>> rather than take a vaccine? Being vaccinated against chickenpox also >>>> helps to protect you from shingles later in life. >>>> >>> >>> Chickenpox is very rarely a serious problem, and usually high-risk >>> people (such as pregnant women who have not had it themselves, or >>> parents with very young babies, or older or otherwise high-risk people >>> who have not already had it) are aware of that. Certainly in Norway >>> people are informed about that. So if kids in a kindergarten have >>> chickenpox, the kindergarten puts up notices warning people. >> >> That caution. Exposing children to a disease which can have serious >> effects is reckless. It is amazing that some people fear vaccines more >> than they fear disease. > > I agree it is amazing - I am not one of these people. > >> "Rare" is not non-existent. > > As is the case with rare side-effects or adverse reactions with > vaccines. I don't know much about what the rate of side-effects is with > the chickenpox vaccine - it is not in widespread use here, or at least > was not when my kids were young enough for it to be relevant. My > understanding is that it is a weakened live virus, and thus carries its > own risk of causing outbreaks late in life, and that it is only about > 85% effective (though 95% effective at stopping serious cases). If you > want to worry about rare problems with the disease, you must apply the > same reasoning to the vaccine. Chickenpox is /not/ like measles. > > It is all a balance - a tradeoff. What are the risks with the disease? > What are the risks with the vaccines? What are the costs to society > that we live with the disease? What are the costs of vaccinating? Are > there alternative methods of reducing the risks and complications? Is > it possible to identify high-risk candidates and deal with them separately? > > With chickenpox, many countries have a balance where they give the > vaccine to people at higher risk (such as compromised immune systems), > older teenage girls who haven't had the disease (to protect them during > pregnancy), and perhaps to adults who haven't had the disease (since it > hits adults harder). They do not see it as being worthwhile or > cost-effective as part of mainstream vaccinations - after all, some > 80-90% of the population are already immune. > >> Pregnant women >> often don't know they are pregnant for some time. The fetus is *very* >> vulnerable to infections when it is very young. > > Not with chickenpox - the serious problems arise if you get it in the > third trimester. But it is absolutely a good idea to vaccinate women > who have not had the disease, in good time before they get pregnant. > >> This is no different >> than drinking alcohol which no responsible adult will do when there is a >> chance of being pregnant. > > Yeah, right. Have you any idea what proportion of pregnancies occur > under the influence of alcohol? Or perhaps you just think that a large > proportion of mothers in the western world are irresponsible. Lol! Being drunk at conception is not the same thing... > Of course most responsible people will limit their alcohol intake if > they think it is likely that they will get pregnant, and stop drinking > if they think they /are/ pregnant. > >> >> >>> Chickenpox is not in the same category as diseases like measles, or >>> mumps. In the vast majority of cases, it has extremely low risk of >>> complications, serious lasting effects, or even much discomfort. >> >> "Vast majority"... yet the serious side effects exist. >> > > The vast majority of people survive crossing the road without serious > side effects - but some don't. There are alternatives - we could build > more bridges, put up more traffic lights, ban cars. But on balance, > society chooses rather to deal with the biggest risk cases (crack down > on drunk driving, put up crossings at key spots) while accepting that > bad things occasionally happen. And we *do* have crosswalks and jaywalking is illegal! >>> The chickenpox vaccine is relatively recent, or at least it is >>> relatively recent that it has become widespread. My kids have all had >>> chickenpox, and the vaccine was never an option when they were young. >>> >>> Because chickenpox is only a serious risk for a few people - the very >>> young, and the small percentage of the adult population who did not have >>> it as a kid - chicken pox parties work well as a method of herd >>> immunisation. >> >> If a vaccine harms one person in 100,000 it is considered dangerous. >> This is from the CDC web page... >> >> Before the vaccine, about 100 people died each year as a result of >> chickenpox in the United States. >> >> So you are ok with that many deaths from Chickenpox? > > Vaccinate the people who have a serious risk of dying - in the case of > chickenpox, that means people with compromised immune systems and the > small proportion of adults who have not had the disease. Widespread > vaccination of all children will have little effect on this number (not > /no/ effect, but little effect). We were talking about the "chickenpox parties". >>> Now, if the vaccine has become common enough to be cheap and simple, and >>> gives long-term immunity, then I fully agree that it is a better >>> alternative to getting chicken pox. That was not the case when my kids >>> were at that age, at least not here in Norway, but if it is the case >>> now, then great - I'd vaccinate myself and my kids if we had not already >>> had the disease. >> >> That statement is just so ill-informed. Chickenpox is a disease that >> harms people, then later in life can cause great discomfort or injury, >> even blindness. Being vaccinated to the disease can't even be compared >> to "chickenpox parties". This is the talk of the truly ignorant. >> > > No, it is not ill-informed - it is just not blowing things out of > proportion. I am a strong vaccine supporter. I expect that eventually > the chickenpox vaccine will become part of the standard vaccination > routines in most western countries, including Norway. I agree that it > is better to be vaccinated against it than to get it. And I have > absolutely nothing against vaccines. Ok, then you agree with me. Your other statements don't sound like that. > But I don't see chickenpox as a serious problem here. The prime reason > for vaccinating against chickenpox is economic - it is cheaper to > vaccinate kids than to have a parent stay home for a week looking after > a spotty but otherwise healthy child. Who's saying chickenpox is a serious problem. We are talking about an irresponsible act of infecting children with chickenpox so they will "be done with it" rather than getting the vaccine. > There are plenty of other diseases that are much more of an issue, and > cause more suffering and death. Put the effort into stopping malaria, > or dengue fever, or something else that is /really/ a problem disease. > There are plenty of other problems in society that cause more suffering > and death. If the money spend on chickenpox vaccines were spent on > installing alcohol locks on car ignitions, you'd save a thousand times > as many lives per dollar spent. Irrelevant. Alcohol locks is a political issue. There is no reason why you can't get all the vaccines needed. There is plenty of money for it. You wouldn't be downplaying chickenpox if you had shingles right now. > By overstating the risks of a minor disease like chickenpox, you also > lose ground in the /real/ battle about vaccinations, especially in the > USA. The problem is not about vaccinating against every minor childhood > disease - it is making sure that all children are vaccinated against the > /major/ ones. When you fuss about wanting vaccines for something as > minor as chickenpox, you will be viewed as categorising it together with > serious diseases like measles. When you tell the vaccine sceptic that > their kids should be vaccinated against chickenpox and measles, they say > "our kid has had chickenpox - he had spots for a couple of days. I > guess measles is much the same, so no need for a vaccine there either". > (Yes, you are dealing with irrational people there.) There you go again. I had a friend who nearly died of shingles. Yes, nearly died. You just don't get it. > In the meantime, in countries like Norway where there is no mass > vaccination against chickenpox, the simplest, cheapest, most reliable > and least unpleasant alternative is to accept that your (otherwise > healthy) kids /will/ get chickenpox, and the earlier they get it, the > better. More bullshit. Get the vaccine. You don't have to wait for someone to shove it down your throats. -- Rick C
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Vaccinations Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-02-06 17:50 -0700
Re: Vaccinations bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-06 16:55 -0800
Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-06 21:26 -0500
Re: Vaccinations Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-02-06 17:56 -0700
Re: Vaccinations "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-02-06 17:01 -0800
Re: Vaccinations Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-02-06 18:04 -0700
Re: Vaccinations Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-02-07 12:21 +1100
Re: Vaccinations Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-02-06 18:57 -0700
Re: Vaccinations Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-02-07 13:17 +1100
Re: Vaccinations Rheilly Phoull <rheilly@bigslong.com> - 2017-02-07 10:22 +0800
Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-06 21:35 -0500
Re: Vaccinations Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-02-07 13:39 +1100
Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-06 23:31 -0500
Re: Vaccinations Martin Riddle <martin_ridd@verizon.net> - 2017-02-06 22:47 -0500
Re: Vaccinations John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-06 20:46 -0800
Re: Vaccinations bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com - 2017-02-07 02:20 -0800
Re: Vaccinations dplatt@coop.radagast.org (Dave Platt) - 2017-02-07 11:30 -0800
Re: Vaccinations John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-07 12:03 -0800
Re: Vaccinations Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-02-08 18:22 +0800
Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 05:23 -0500
Re: Vaccinations Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-02-08 18:39 +0800
Re: Vaccinations bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-08 06:12 -0800
Re: Vaccinations David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-08 15:38 +0100
Re: Vaccinations M Philbrook <jamie_ka1lpa@charter.net> - 2017-02-09 19:27 -0500
Re: Vaccinations bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-09 16:59 -0800
Re: Vaccinations bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-08 06:09 -0800
Re: Vaccinations David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-08 15:39 +0100
Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 17:05 -0500
Re: Vaccinations Martin Riddle <martin_ridd@verizon.net> - 2017-02-06 22:45 -0500
Re: Vaccinations Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-07 08:21 +0000
Re: Vaccinations Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-07 08:19 +0000
Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-07 04:20 -0500
Re: Vaccinations Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-07 09:42 +0000
Re: Vaccinations Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-02-07 17:57 +0000
Re: Vaccinations Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-02-07 11:12 -0700
Re: Vaccinations "tom" <tmiller11147@verizon.net> - 2017-02-07 15:43 -0500
Re: Vaccinations krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-07 21:15 -0500
Re: Vaccinations amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-02-08 07:46 -0600
Re: Vaccinations krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-08 12:45 -0500
Re: Vaccinations dplatt@coop.radagast.org (Dave Platt) - 2017-02-08 11:33 -0800
Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 17:19 -0500
Re: Vaccinations Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-02-08 17:57 +0000
Re: Vaccinations krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-08 13:16 -0500
Re: Vaccinations Martin Brown <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-02-08 18:32 +0000
Re: Vaccinations Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-02-08 12:09 -0700
Re: Vaccinations John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2017-02-07 21:08 +0000
Re: Vaccinations David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-08 12:45 +0100
Re: Vaccinations Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-02-08 18:00 +0000
Re: Vaccinations krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-08 13:16 -0500
Re: Vaccinations Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-02-08 11:28 -0700
Re: Vaccinations krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-08 20:33 -0500
Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 17:26 -0500
Re: Vaccinations Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-02-08 23:09 +0000
Re: Vaccinations Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-02-08 15:33 -0800
Re: Vaccinations bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-08 15:42 -0800
Re: Vaccinations Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-08 23:43 +0000
Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 20:56 -0500
Re: Vaccinations David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-09 10:58 +0100
Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-09 05:35 -0500
Re: Vaccinations David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-09 12:54 +0100
Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-09 07:20 -0500
Re: Vaccinations Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-09 13:38 +0000
Re: Vaccinations David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-09 14:56 +0100
Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-09 17:47 -0500
Re: Vaccinations bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-09 17:16 -0800
Re: Vaccinations Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-09 16:40 +0000
Re: Vaccinations amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-02-09 11:04 -0600
Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-09 17:46 -0500
Re: Vaccinations amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-02-09 09:15 -0600
Re: Vaccinations Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-02-10 16:36 +0000
Re: Vaccinations bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-10 16:41 -0800
Re: Vaccinations John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-08 09:12 -0800
Re: Vaccinations Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-02-08 09:36 -0800
Re: Vaccinations John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-08 12:40 -0800
Re: Vaccinations Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-02-08 11:51 -0700
Re: Vaccinations John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2017-02-09 15:02 +0000
Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-09 17:46 -0500
Re: Vaccinations Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-02-10 16:52 +0000
Re: Vaccinations bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-10 16:46 -0800
Re: Vaccinations krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-09 21:12 -0500
Re: Vaccinations bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-09 19:01 -0800
Re: Vaccinations John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2017-02-10 08:23 +0000
Re: Vaccinations krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-10 12:23 -0500
Re: Vaccinations John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2017-02-10 18:09 +0000
Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-07 16:31 -0500
Re: Vaccinations artie <artie.m@gNOSPAMmail.com> - 2017-02-06 17:28 -0800
Re: Vaccinations Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-02-06 19:11 -0700
Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-06 21:34 -0500
Re: Vaccinations Frank Miles <fpm@u.washington.edu> - 2017-02-07 01:52 +0000
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