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Re: Vaccinations

From David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups sci.electronics.design
Subject Re: Vaccinations
Date 2017-02-09 14:56 +0100
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <o7hsaa$1t6$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (7 earlier) <o7g5r4$3l8$1@dont-email.me> <o7hebv$8bo$1@dont-email.me> <o7hght$fja$1@dont-email.me> <o7hl5o$umg$1@dont-email.me> <o7hmnq$90a$1@dont-email.me>

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On 09/02/17 13:20, rickman wrote:
> On 2/9/2017 6:54 AM, David Brown wrote:

>> No, it is not ill-informed - it is just not blowing things out of
>> proportion.  I am a strong vaccine supporter.  I expect that eventually
>> the chickenpox vaccine will become part of the standard vaccination
>> routines in most western countries, including Norway.  I agree that it
>> is better to be vaccinated against it than to get it.  And I have
>> absolutely nothing against vaccines.
> 
> Ok, then you agree with me.  Your other statements don't sound like that.
> 
> 
>> But I don't see chickenpox as a serious problem here.  The prime reason
>> for vaccinating against chickenpox is economic - it is cheaper to
>> vaccinate kids than to have a parent stay home for a week looking after
>> a spotty but otherwise healthy child.
> 
> Who's saying chickenpox is a serious problem.  We are talking about an
> irresponsible act of infecting children with chickenpox so they will "be
> done with it" rather than getting the vaccine.

In America, and a couple of other countries (Germany and Lithuania, I
think), chickenpox vaccine is widespread, standardised, and free.  In
most other countries it is available for those that need it or
particularly ask for it, but otherwise it is not mainstream.  Maybe it
will become standard here too - but currently, it is not.  The
chickenpox vaccine is not an urgent matter, and it will take a good long
time before the various boards and committees decide to view it as
standard, and to implement it.

In the meantime, kids will get chickenpox here.  You can pretty much
guarantee it, unless you raise your family alone on a mountain
somewhere.  Once the child is no longer a small baby, getting chickenpox
is not a problem - and the younger they get it, the better.  So the
rational action is to get the matter over and done with as soon as
practically possible.  It is not "irresponsible" - it is practical and
sensible.  It is infecting the child with a mild disease (chickenpox
when young) to protect them from getting a serious disease (chickenpox
when older) - basically, it is the same concept as vaccination, just
that even mild chickenpox is more unpleasant than a vaccine.

When my youngest kid got chickenpox, the vaccine was not really an
option.  It was not something publicised, nor something offered or
recommend by doctors except for those with particular needs.  (And when
he was small, our youngest was given an extraordinarily expensive
vaccine against a relatively rare lung virus due to his weak lungs - if
his doctors felt that chickenpox was at all risky, he would have got the
vaccine.)

Now, the chickenpox vaccine is a bit more common here.  If my kids
hadn't had chickenpox, I would no doubt have had them vaccinated.  But
at the time, there were perhaps 200 people in the whole country that got
the vaccine.  I am not sure why the chickenpox vaccine has been standard
in the USA for 15 years or so, but it very rare in most European
countries, but that's the way it is.


> 
> 
>> By overstating the risks of a minor disease like chickenpox, you also
>> lose ground in the /real/ battle about vaccinations, especially in the
>> USA.  The problem is not about vaccinating against every minor childhood
>> disease - it is making sure that all children are vaccinated against the
>> /major/ ones.  When you fuss about wanting vaccines for something as
>> minor as chickenpox, you will be viewed as categorising it together with
>> serious diseases like measles.  When you tell the vaccine sceptic that
>> their kids should be vaccinated against chickenpox and measles, they say
>> "our kid has had chickenpox - he had spots for a couple of days.  I
>> guess measles is much the same, so no need for a vaccine there either".
>>  (Yes, you are dealing with irrational people there.)
> 
> There you go again.  I had a friend who nearly died of shingles.  Yes,
> nearly died.  You just don't get it.

People who get seriously ill from shingles are usually old or have
otherwise weakened immune systems.  They are mostly high risk for almost
any disease.  (There are always exceptions - but policy here should be
based on statistics, not individuals, no matter how unpleasant a disease
might be for a particularly unlucky person.)

The chickenpox vaccine, given as a child, does not protect fully against
shingles.  The weakened virus in the vaccine can hide in the nervous
system just like the normal virus, and can burst out as a variety of
shingles many decades later.  And there is currently no reason to
suppose that the immunity inferred by the vaccine as a child will
protect you against chickenpox and/or shingles in later life.

What /will/ help, of course, is for people who have a weak immune system
to get the vaccine.

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Thread

Vaccinations Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-02-06 17:50 -0700
  Re: Vaccinations bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-06 16:55 -0800
    Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-06 21:26 -0500
  Re: Vaccinations Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-02-06 17:56 -0700
    Re: Vaccinations "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-02-06 17:01 -0800
    Re: Vaccinations Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-02-06 18:04 -0700
    Re: Vaccinations Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-02-07 12:21 +1100
      Re: Vaccinations Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-02-06 18:57 -0700
        Re: Vaccinations Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-02-07 13:17 +1100
          Re: Vaccinations Rheilly Phoull <rheilly@bigslong.com> - 2017-02-07 10:22 +0800
          Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-06 21:35 -0500
            Re: Vaccinations Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-02-07 13:39 +1100
              Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-06 23:31 -0500
          Re: Vaccinations Martin Riddle <martin_ridd@verizon.net> - 2017-02-06 22:47 -0500
          Re: Vaccinations John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-06 20:46 -0800
            Re: Vaccinations bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com - 2017-02-07 02:20 -0800
            Re: Vaccinations dplatt@coop.radagast.org (Dave Platt) - 2017-02-07 11:30 -0800
              Re: Vaccinations John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-07 12:03 -0800
                Re: Vaccinations Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-02-08 18:22 +0800
                Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 05:23 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-02-08 18:39 +0800
                Re: Vaccinations bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-08 06:12 -0800
                Re: Vaccinations David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-08 15:38 +0100
                Re: Vaccinations M Philbrook <jamie_ka1lpa@charter.net> - 2017-02-09 19:27 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-09 16:59 -0800
                Re: Vaccinations bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-08 06:09 -0800
                Re: Vaccinations David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-08 15:39 +0100
                Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 17:05 -0500
        Re: Vaccinations Martin Riddle <martin_ridd@verizon.net> - 2017-02-06 22:45 -0500
        Re: Vaccinations Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-07 08:21 +0000
    Re: Vaccinations Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-07 08:19 +0000
      Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-07 04:20 -0500
        Re: Vaccinations Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-07 09:42 +0000
    Re: Vaccinations Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-02-07 17:57 +0000
      Re: Vaccinations Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-02-07 11:12 -0700
        Re: Vaccinations "tom" <tmiller11147@verizon.net> - 2017-02-07 15:43 -0500
          Re: Vaccinations krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-07 21:15 -0500
            Re: Vaccinations amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-02-08 07:46 -0600
              Re: Vaccinations krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-08 12:45 -0500
              Re: Vaccinations dplatt@coop.radagast.org (Dave Platt) - 2017-02-08 11:33 -0800
                Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 17:19 -0500
            Re: Vaccinations Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-02-08 17:57 +0000
              Re: Vaccinations krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-08 13:16 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations Martin Brown <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-02-08 18:32 +0000
                Re: Vaccinations Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-02-08 12:09 -0700
        Re: Vaccinations John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2017-02-07 21:08 +0000
          Re: Vaccinations David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-08 12:45 +0100
            Re: Vaccinations Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-02-08 18:00 +0000
              Re: Vaccinations krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-08 13:16 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-02-08 11:28 -0700
                Re: Vaccinations krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-08 20:33 -0500
              Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 17:26 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-02-08 23:09 +0000
                Re: Vaccinations Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-02-08 15:33 -0800
                Re: Vaccinations bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-08 15:42 -0800
                Re: Vaccinations Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-08 23:43 +0000
                Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 20:56 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-09 10:58 +0100
                Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-09 05:35 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-09 12:54 +0100
                Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-09 07:20 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-09 13:38 +0000
                Re: Vaccinations David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-09 14:56 +0100
                Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-09 17:47 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-09 17:16 -0800
                Re: Vaccinations Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-09 16:40 +0000
                Re: Vaccinations amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-02-09 11:04 -0600
                Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-09 17:46 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-02-09 09:15 -0600
                Re: Vaccinations Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-02-10 16:36 +0000
                Re: Vaccinations bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-10 16:41 -0800
          Re: Vaccinations John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-08 09:12 -0800
            Re: Vaccinations Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-02-08 09:36 -0800
              Re: Vaccinations John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-08 12:40 -0800
            Re: Vaccinations Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-02-08 11:51 -0700
            Re: Vaccinations John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2017-02-09 15:02 +0000
              Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-09 17:46 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-02-10 16:52 +0000
                Re: Vaccinations bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-10 16:46 -0800
              Re: Vaccinations krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-09 21:12 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-09 19:01 -0800
                Re: Vaccinations John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2017-02-10 08:23 +0000
                Re: Vaccinations krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-10 12:23 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2017-02-10 18:09 +0000
      Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-07 16:31 -0500
  Re: Vaccinations artie <artie.m@gNOSPAMmail.com> - 2017-02-06 17:28 -0800
    Re: Vaccinations Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-02-06 19:11 -0700
      Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-06 21:34 -0500
  Re: Vaccinations Frank Miles <fpm@u.washington.edu> - 2017-02-07 01:52 +0000

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