Groups > sci.electronics.design > #446996

Re: Vaccinations

From	David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups	sci.electronics.design
Subject	Re: Vaccinations
Date	2017-02-09 12:54 +0100
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<o7hl5o$umg$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(5 earlier) <o7f09l$gra$1@dont-email.me> <o7fmc5$k8$3@dont-email.me> <o7g5r4$3l8$1@dont-email.me> <o7hebv$8bo$1@dont-email.me> <o7hght$fja$1@dont-email.me>

Show all headers | View raw

On 09/02/17 11:35, rickman wrote:
> On 2/9/2017 4:58 AM, David Brown wrote:
>> On 08/02/17 23:26, rickman wrote:
>>> On 2/8/2017 1:00 PM, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 08 Feb 2017 12:45:35 +0100, David Brown wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Chicken pox is almost always mild if you get it as a kid - the younger
>>>>> the better (but not babies - you need to have a more developed immune
>>>>> system).  The people who suffer badly from chicken pox are usually
>>>>> teenagers or adults.  It is common that when a kindergarten kid gets
>>>>> chicken pox, the parents hold a "chicken pox party" so that lots of
>>>>> other kindergarten kids can come and get it at an early age where all
>>>>> they get is a few spots and possibly a night of mild fever.
>>>>
>>>> In the good old days when sanity reined, yes. But I would imagine that
>>>> today Big Pharma and the CDC would have something to say about such
>>>> practices.
>>>
>>> Chickenpox is not always innocuous, being downright dangerous to others
>>> around the infected child such as a pregnant woman, and a vaccine is
>>> available.  Why on earth would anyone want to be infected with a disease
>>> rather than take a vaccine?  Being vaccinated against chickenpox also
>>> helps to protect you from shingles later in life.
>>>
>>
>> Chickenpox is very rarely a serious problem, and usually high-risk
>> people (such as pregnant women who have not had it themselves, or
>> parents with very young babies, or older or otherwise high-risk people
>> who have not already had it) are aware of that.  Certainly in Norway
>> people are informed about that.  So if kids in a kindergarten have
>> chickenpox, the kindergarten puts up notices warning people.
> 
> That caution.  Exposing children to a disease which can have serious
> effects is reckless.  It is amazing that some people fear vaccines more
> than they fear disease.  

I agree it is amazing - I am not one of these people.

> "Rare" is not non-existent.

As is the case with rare side-effects or adverse reactions with
vaccines.  I don't know much about what the rate of side-effects is with
the chickenpox vaccine - it is not in widespread use here, or at least
was not when my kids were young enough for it to be relevant.  My
understanding is that it is a weakened live virus, and thus carries its
own risk of causing outbreaks late in life, and that it is only about
85% effective (though 95% effective at stopping serious cases).  If you
want to worry about rare problems with the disease, you must apply the
same reasoning to the vaccine.  Chickenpox is /not/ like measles.

It is all a balance - a tradeoff.  What are the risks with the disease?
 What are the risks with the vaccines?  What are the costs to society
that we live with the disease?  What are the costs of vaccinating?  Are
there alternative methods of reducing the risks and complications?  Is
it possible to identify high-risk candidates and deal with them separately?

With chickenpox, many countries have a balance where they give the
vaccine to people at higher risk (such as compromised immune systems),
older teenage girls who haven't had the disease (to protect them during
pregnancy), and perhaps to adults who haven't had the disease (since it
hits adults harder).  They do not see it as being worthwhile or
cost-effective as part of mainstream vaccinations - after all, some
80-90% of the population are already immune.

>  Pregnant women
> often don't know they are pregnant for some time.  The fetus is *very*
> vulnerable to infections when it is very young.  

Not with chickenpox - the serious problems arise if you get it in the
third trimester.  But it is absolutely a good idea to vaccinate women
who have not had the disease, in good time before they get pregnant.

> This is no different
> than drinking alcohol which no responsible adult will do when there is a
> chance of being pregnant.

Yeah, right.  Have you any idea what proportion of pregnancies occur
under the influence of alcohol?  Or perhaps you just think that a large
proportion of mothers in the western world are irresponsible.

Of course most responsible people will limit their alcohol intake if
they think it is likely that they will get pregnant, and stop drinking
if they think they /are/ pregnant.

> 
> 
>> Chickenpox is not in the same category as diseases like measles, or
>> mumps.  In the vast majority of cases, it has extremely low risk of
>> complications, serious lasting effects, or even much discomfort.
> 
> "Vast majority"... yet the serious side effects exist.
> 

The vast majority of people survive crossing the road without serious
side effects - but some don't.  There are alternatives - we could build
more bridges, put up more traffic lights, ban cars.  But on balance,
society chooses rather to deal with the biggest risk cases (crack down
on drunk driving, put up crossings at key spots) while accepting that
bad things occasionally happen.

> 
>> The chickenpox vaccine is relatively recent, or at least it is
>> relatively recent that it has become widespread.  My kids have all had
>> chickenpox, and the vaccine was never an option when they were young.
>>
>> Because chickenpox is only a serious risk for a few people - the very
>> young, and the small percentage of the adult population who did not have
>> it as a kid - chicken pox parties work well as a method of herd
>> immunisation.
> 
> If a vaccine harms one person in 100,000 it is considered dangerous.
> This is from the CDC web page...
> 
> Before the vaccine, about 100 people died each year as a result of
> chickenpox in the United States.
> 
> So you are ok with that many deaths from Chickenpox?

Vaccinate the people who have a serious risk of dying - in the case of
chickenpox, that means people with compromised immune systems and the
small proportion of adults who have not had the disease.  Widespread
vaccination of all children will have little effect on this number (not
/no/ effect, but little effect).

> 
> 
>> Now, if the vaccine has become common enough to be cheap and simple, and
>> gives long-term immunity, then I fully agree that it is a better
>> alternative to getting chicken pox.  That was not the case when my kids
>> were at that age, at least not here in Norway, but if it is the case
>> now, then great - I'd vaccinate myself and my kids if we had not already
>> had the disease.
> 
> That statement is just so ill-informed.  Chickenpox is a disease that
> harms people, then later in life can cause great discomfort or injury,
> even blindness.  Being vaccinated to the disease can't even be compared
> to "chickenpox parties".  This is the talk of the truly ignorant.
> 

No, it is not ill-informed - it is just not blowing things out of
proportion.  I am a strong vaccine supporter.  I expect that eventually
the chickenpox vaccine will become part of the standard vaccination
routines in most western countries, including Norway.  I agree that it
is better to be vaccinated against it than to get it.  And I have
absolutely nothing against vaccines.

But I don't see chickenpox as a serious problem here.  The prime reason
for vaccinating against chickenpox is economic - it is cheaper to
vaccinate kids than to have a parent stay home for a week looking after
a spotty but otherwise healthy child.

There are plenty of other diseases that are much more of an issue, and
cause more suffering and death.  Put the effort into stopping malaria,
or dengue fever, or something else that is /really/ a problem disease.
There are plenty of other problems in society that cause more suffering
and death.  If the money spend on chickenpox vaccines were spent on
installing alcohol locks on car ignitions, you'd save a thousand times
as many lives per dollar spent.

By overstating the risks of a minor disease like chickenpox, you also
lose ground in the /real/ battle about vaccinations, especially in the
USA.  The problem is not about vaccinating against every minor childhood
disease - it is making sure that all children are vaccinated against the
/major/ ones.  When you fuss about wanting vaccines for something as
minor as chickenpox, you will be viewed as categorising it together with
serious diseases like measles.  When you tell the vaccine sceptic that
their kids should be vaccinated against chickenpox and measles, they say
"our kid has had chickenpox - he had spots for a couple of days.  I
guess measles is much the same, so no need for a vaccine there either".
 (Yes, you are dealing with irrational people there.)

In the meantime, in countries like Norway where there is no mass
vaccination against chickenpox, the simplest, cheapest, most reliable
and least unpleasant alternative is to accept that your (otherwise
healthy) kids /will/ get chickenpox, and the earlier they get it, the
better.

Thread

Vaccinations Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-02-06 17:50 -0700
  Re: Vaccinations bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-06 16:55 -0800
    Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-06 21:26 -0500
  Re: Vaccinations Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-02-06 17:56 -0700
    Re: Vaccinations "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-02-06 17:01 -0800
    Re: Vaccinations Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-02-06 18:04 -0700
    Re: Vaccinations Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-02-07 12:21 +1100
      Re: Vaccinations Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-02-06 18:57 -0700
        Re: Vaccinations Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-02-07 13:17 +1100
          Re: Vaccinations Rheilly Phoull <rheilly@bigslong.com> - 2017-02-07 10:22 +0800
          Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-06 21:35 -0500
            Re: Vaccinations Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-02-07 13:39 +1100
              Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-06 23:31 -0500
          Re: Vaccinations Martin Riddle <martin_ridd@verizon.net> - 2017-02-06 22:47 -0500
          Re: Vaccinations John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-06 20:46 -0800
            Re: Vaccinations bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com - 2017-02-07 02:20 -0800
            Re: Vaccinations dplatt@coop.radagast.org (Dave Platt) - 2017-02-07 11:30 -0800
              Re: Vaccinations John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-07 12:03 -0800
                Re: Vaccinations Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-02-08 18:22 +0800
                Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 05:23 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-02-08 18:39 +0800
                Re: Vaccinations bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-08 06:12 -0800
                Re: Vaccinations David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-08 15:38 +0100
                Re: Vaccinations M Philbrook <jamie_ka1lpa@charter.net> - 2017-02-09 19:27 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-09 16:59 -0800
                Re: Vaccinations bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-08 06:09 -0800
                Re: Vaccinations David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-08 15:39 +0100
                Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 17:05 -0500
        Re: Vaccinations Martin Riddle <martin_ridd@verizon.net> - 2017-02-06 22:45 -0500
        Re: Vaccinations Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-07 08:21 +0000
    Re: Vaccinations Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-07 08:19 +0000
      Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-07 04:20 -0500
        Re: Vaccinations Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-07 09:42 +0000
    Re: Vaccinations Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-02-07 17:57 +0000
      Re: Vaccinations Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-02-07 11:12 -0700
        Re: Vaccinations "tom" <tmiller11147@verizon.net> - 2017-02-07 15:43 -0500
          Re: Vaccinations krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-07 21:15 -0500
            Re: Vaccinations amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-02-08 07:46 -0600
              Re: Vaccinations krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-08 12:45 -0500
              Re: Vaccinations dplatt@coop.radagast.org (Dave Platt) - 2017-02-08 11:33 -0800
                Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 17:19 -0500
            Re: Vaccinations Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-02-08 17:57 +0000
              Re: Vaccinations krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-08 13:16 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations Martin Brown <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-02-08 18:32 +0000
                Re: Vaccinations Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-02-08 12:09 -0700
        Re: Vaccinations John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2017-02-07 21:08 +0000
          Re: Vaccinations David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-08 12:45 +0100
            Re: Vaccinations Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-02-08 18:00 +0000
              Re: Vaccinations krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-08 13:16 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-02-08 11:28 -0700
                Re: Vaccinations krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-08 20:33 -0500
              Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 17:26 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-02-08 23:09 +0000
                Re: Vaccinations Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-02-08 15:33 -0800
                Re: Vaccinations bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-08 15:42 -0800
                Re: Vaccinations Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-08 23:43 +0000
                Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-08 20:56 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-09 10:58 +0100
                Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-09 05:35 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-09 12:54 +0100
                Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-09 07:20 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-09 13:38 +0000
                Re: Vaccinations David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-02-09 14:56 +0100
                Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-09 17:47 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-09 17:16 -0800
                Re: Vaccinations Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-02-09 16:40 +0000
                Re: Vaccinations amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-02-09 11:04 -0600
                Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-09 17:46 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2017-02-09 09:15 -0600
                Re: Vaccinations Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-02-10 16:36 +0000
                Re: Vaccinations bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-10 16:41 -0800
          Re: Vaccinations John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-08 09:12 -0800
            Re: Vaccinations Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-02-08 09:36 -0800
              Re: Vaccinations John Larkin <jjlarkinxyxy@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-02-08 12:40 -0800
            Re: Vaccinations Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-02-08 11:51 -0700
            Re: Vaccinations John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2017-02-09 15:02 +0000
              Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-09 17:46 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-02-10 16:52 +0000
                Re: Vaccinations bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-10 16:46 -0800
              Re: Vaccinations krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-09 21:12 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-02-09 19:01 -0800
                Re: Vaccinations John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2017-02-10 08:23 +0000
                Re: Vaccinations krw@notreal.com - 2017-02-10 12:23 -0500
                Re: Vaccinations John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2017-02-10 18:09 +0000
      Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-07 16:31 -0500
  Re: Vaccinations artie <artie.m@gNOSPAMmail.com> - 2017-02-06 17:28 -0800
    Re: Vaccinations Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-02-06 19:11 -0700
      Re: Vaccinations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-02-06 21:34 -0500
  Re: Vaccinations Frank Miles <fpm@u.washington.edu> - 2017-02-07 01:52 +0000

csiph-web