Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.lang.forth > #53521

Re: Language stds (Re: f.) for Gorth)

From Alex <alex@rivadpm.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: Language stds (Re: f.) for Gorth)
Date 2016-12-24 18:13 +0000
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <o3mdpl$qlo$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (7 earlier) <932bc6cf-7c0b-4e88-af6f-aea4186f747d@googlegroups.com> <o3bigs$8vg$1@dont-email.me> <728a4560-2bf7-49f8-a701-155cdcbde6cc@googlegroups.com> <o3e135$a3r$1@dont-email.me> <o3ki28$1p4d$1@gioia.aioe.org>

Show all headers | View raw

On 12/24/2016 01:12, HAA wrote:
> Alex wrote:
>> ... Standards are born out of cooperation and community,
>
> Whatever their lofty statements of intent and inclusion, standards
> are political processes that necessarily includes vendors and
> leadership with power of veto.  Whatever concessions they may make to
> the 'community' you can be assured it won't be at their disadvantage.
> Standards work when you have a usership that has little choice but to
> comply.  That isn't the case with Forth where standards are largely
> optional and you can get by with a small set of words and reasonable
> level of skill.

This type of standard is commonly called "de facto" and it really isn't 
a standard at all; more a market dominance that enforces compliance. 
Examples include Microsoft SMB or Amazon S3. But even the heavyweights 
have their hands tied. A whole ecosystem has sprung up around these de 
facto standrads, and radical changes would be foolish.

De jure standards are processes that include vendors and some software 
standards also include open source or free software practioners. No 
standards body I know has a leadership with a power of veto; quite the 
reverse, and most (certainly all those I'm on) have a 1 member 1 vote 
constitution, regardless of their company's size or user base.

But you are correct in one respect; nobody wants a standard to 
disadvantage their user base, which is why they are often messy & 
sometimes complex definitions.

A small set of words and a reasonable level of skill don't build systems 
that are interoperable; adhering to standards does that.

>
>> not out of the yelling & shouting of one individual who wants to
>> dictate a solution, and then attempts to destroy the reputation and
>> work of others when they fail to do as he demands.
>
> That would include Forth's inventor who faced with the choice of
> staying and being voted down, chose to leave Forth-94 and has been
> severely critical ever since.  He may have more cause to be
> disappointed considering Forth has been taken in the opposite
> direction to what he intended.
>

That was his choice. Being a lone voice is difficult in committee, but 
it's better being heard and sometimes rejected than not being heard at 
all. The disappointment of one is to be weighed against the satisfaction 
of many. Interestingly enough, it was partly Charles Moore's cmForth 
that influenced the Forth standard committee re FIND and introduced the 
ambiguities that so hacks Hugh off.

-- 
Alex

Back to comp.lang.forth | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

f.) for Gorth josv@planet.nl - 2016-12-06 03:40 -0800
  Re: f.) for Gorth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-06 15:48 +0100
  Re: f.) for Gorth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-06 17:59 +0000
    Re: f.) for Gorth josv@planet.nl - 2016-12-06 13:17 -0800
      Re: f.) for Gorth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-07 11:11 +0000
        Re: f.) for Gorth Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-12-07 06:11 -0800
          Re: f.) for Gorth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-07 17:50 +0000
        Re: f.) for Gorth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-07 15:23 +0100
          Re: f.) for Gorth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-08 16:18 +0000
        Re: f.) for Gorth josv@planet.nl - 2016-12-07 06:46 -0800
          Re: f.) for Gorth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-07 17:41 +0000
  Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-06 10:34 -0800
    Re: f.) for Gorth josv@planet.nl - 2016-12-09 12:11 -0800
      Re: f.) for Gorth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-12-23 13:23 +1100
    Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-15 15:42 -0800
  Re: f.) for Gorth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-12-07 13:06 +1100
    Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-06 18:32 -0800
      Re: f.) for Gorth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-07 12:41 +0100
        Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-07 19:49 -0800
          Re: f.) for Gorth Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-12-08 08:12 +0000
            Re: f.) for Gorth Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2016-12-08 18:53 -0500
              Re: f.) for Gorth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-12-09 00:01 +0000
                Re: f.) for Gorth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-09 12:17 +0100
                Re: f.) for Gorth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-09 13:01 +0000
              Re: f.) for Gorth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-12-09 11:19 +1100
                Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-08 22:23 -0800
                Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-09 07:11 -0800
                Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-20 22:40 -0800
                Re: f.) for Gorth Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-12-20 23:59 -0800
                Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-21 21:17 -0800
                Re: f.) for Gorth The Beez <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 08:51 -0800
                Re: f.) for Gorth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-09 12:47 +0000
                Re: f.) for Gorth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-12-10 11:54 +1100
                Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-09 17:28 -0800
                Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-09 18:20 -0800
                Re: f.) for Gorth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-10 14:26 +0000
                Re: f.) for Gorth The Beez <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 09:14 -0800
                Re: f.) for Gorth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-13 19:24 +0100
                Re: f.) for Gorth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-12-14 07:29 -0600
                Re: f.) for Gorth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2016-12-14 18:29 +0100
                Re: f.) for Gorth Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-12-14 10:13 -0800
                Re: f.) for Gorth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-12-15 03:45 -0600
                Re: f.) for Gorth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-15 10:42 +0000
                Re: f.) for Gorth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-12-15 05:11 -0600
                Re: f.) for Gorth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-15 12:36 +0000
                Re: f.) for Gorth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-12-15 07:33 -0600
                Re: f.) for Gorth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-15 14:31 +0000
                Re: f.) for Gorth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-12-15 14:34 -0600
                Re: f.) for Gorth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-12-15 16:20 -0800
                Re: f.) for Gorth Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-12-15 16:46 -0800
                Re: f.) for Gorth Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-12-17 09:23 -0800
                Re: f.) for Gorth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-12-19 02:56 -0600
                Re: f.) for Gorth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-16 08:10 +0000
                Re: f.) for Gorth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-12-16 10:00 -0600
                Re: f.) for Gorth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-18 10:32 +0000
                Re: f.) for Gorth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-12-19 03:22 -0600
                Re: f.) for Gorth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-16 14:14 +0100
                Re: f.) for Gorth Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2016-12-19 19:41 +0000
                Re: f.) for Gorth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-12-20 03:02 -0600
                Re: f.) for Gorth mhx@iae.nl - 2016-12-20 01:27 -0800
                Re: f.) for Gorth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-20 12:35 +0000
                Re: f.) for Gorth Charles Montgomery <cgm@physics.utoledo.edu> - 2016-12-20 21:23 -0500
                Re: f.) for Gorth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-21 07:29 +0000
                Re: f.) for Gorth Charles Montgomery <cgm@physics.utoledo.edu> - 2016-12-21 22:24 -0500
                Re: f.) for Gorth "David N. Williams" <williams@umich.edu> - 2016-12-22 08:10 -0500
                Re: f.) for Gorth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-22 17:39 +0000
                Re: f.) for Gorth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-15 12:53 +0100
                Re: f.) for Gorth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-12-15 05:59 -0600
                Re: f.) for Gorth "Robert L." <No_spamming@noWhere_7073.org> - 2017-01-03 16:15 +0000
                Re: f.) for Gorth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-14 17:06 +0000
                Re: f.) for Gorth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-12-18 10:58 +1100
                Re: f.) for Gorth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-12-17 17:26 -0800
                Re: f.) for Gorth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-12-19 13:16 +1100
                Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-18 19:19 -0800
                Re: f.) for Gorth john <anon@example.com> - 2016-12-19 11:03 +0000
                Re: f.) for Gorth Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2016-12-20 01:46 -0800
                Re: f.) for Gorth john <anon@example.com> - 2016-12-20 12:14 +0000
                Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-20 17:34 -0800
                Re: f.) for Gorth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-12-18 19:25 -0800
                Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-18 19:45 -0800
                Re: f.) for Gorth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-12-22 11:32 +1100
                Re: f.) for Gorth Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2017-01-03 19:33 +0000
                Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-03 22:13 -0800
                Re: f.) for Gorth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-01-04 23:03 +0000
                Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-06 22:52 -0800
                Re: f.) for Gorth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-01-07 22:45 +0000
                Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-07 17:23 -0800
                Re: f.) for Gorth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-01-08 09:13 +0000
                Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-08 17:10 -0800
                Re: f.) for Gorth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-01-09 10:22 +0000
                Re: f.) for Gorth stephen@mpeforth.com - 2017-01-08 07:00 -0800
                Re: f.) for Gorth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-20 14:09 +0200
                Re: f.) for Gorth Matthias Trute <matthias.trute@gmail.com> - 2017-01-11 01:14 -0800
    Re: f.) for Gorth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-07 12:26 +0100
      Re: f.) for Gorth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-12-08 10:21 +1100
        Re: f.) for Gorth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-20 15:45 +0100
          Re: f.) for Gorth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-12-20 15:33 +0000
          Re: f.) for Gorth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-12-22 11:37 +1100
            Re: f.) for Gorth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-22 14:19 +0100
              Re: f.) for Gorth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-12-23 12:11 +1100
                Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-22 17:49 -0800
                Re: f.) for Gorth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-12-23 20:41 +1100
            Re: f.) for Gorth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-20 14:21 +0200
  Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-15 22:31 -0800
    Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-16 18:26 -0800
      Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-18 16:41 -0800
        Re: f.) for Gorth stephen@mpeforth.com - 2016-12-20 02:20 -0800
          Re: f.) for Gorth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-20 13:04 +0000
            Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-20 17:27 -0800
  Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-17 10:36 -0800
    Re: f.) for Gorth Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-12-17 11:51 -0800
      Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-18 19:35 -0800
        Re: f.) for Gorth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-19 14:17 +0100
          Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-19 10:10 -0800
            Re: f.) for Gorth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-12-19 20:33 +0000
              Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-19 18:11 -0800
                Re: f.) for Gorth Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-12-19 19:03 -0800
                Re: f.) for Gorth Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-12-20 08:10 +0000
                Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-20 18:05 -0800
                Re: f.) for Gorth  -  what is a number? Jan Coombs <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com> - 2016-12-21 09:04 +0000
                Re: f.) for Gorth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-12-20 15:26 +0000
                Re: f.) for Gorth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-12-20 11:30 -0600
                Language stds (was Re: f.) for Gorth) Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-12-20 19:49 +0000
                Re: Language stds (was Re: f.) for Gorth) john <anon@example.com> - 2016-12-20 20:06 +0000
                Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-20 17:52 -0800
                Re: f.) for Gorth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-12-21 13:47 +0000
                Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-21 20:46 -0800
                Re: f.) for Gorth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-12-22 14:33 +0000
                Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-22 07:06 -0800
                Re: f.) for Gorth Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-12-22 07:21 -0800
                Re: f.) for Gorth Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-12-23 07:41 +0000
                Re: f.) for Gorth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-12-23 08:33 +0000
                Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-23 18:22 -0800
                Re: f.) for Gorth Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-12-23 20:28 -0800
                Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-26 18:30 -0800
                Language stds (Re: f.) for Gorth) "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-12-24 12:12 +1100
                Re: Language stds (Re: f.) for Gorth) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-12-24 03:28 -0600
                Re: Language stds (Re: f.) for Gorth) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-12-24 10:02 -0600
                Re: Language stds (Re: f.) for Gorth) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-24 16:13 -0800
                Re: Language stds (Re: f.) for Gorth) Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-12-24 18:13 +0000
                Re: Language stds (Re: f.) for Gorth) "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-12-28 09:24 +1100
                Re: Language stds (Re: f.) for Gorth) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-12-27 17:10 -0600
                Re: Language stds (Re: f.) for Gorth) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-27 22:58 -0800
                Re: Language stds (Re: f.) for Gorth) "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-12-29 10:12 +1100
                Re: Language stds (Re: f.) for Gorth) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-12-29 17:03 -0800
                Re: Language stds (Re: f.) for Gorth) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-29 19:35 -0800
                Re: Language stds (Re: f.) for Gorth) Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-12-30 05:27 -0800
                Re: Language stds (Re: f.) for Gorth) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-30 19:11 -0800
                Re: Language stds (Re: f.) for Gorth) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-31 06:42 -0800

csiph-web