Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]
Groups > comp.lang.forth > #53406
| From | anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.forth |
| Subject | Re: f.) for Gorth |
| Date | 2016-12-18 10:32 +0000 |
| Organization | Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien |
| Message-ID | <2016Dec18.113217@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> (permalink) |
| References | (5 earlier) <36GdneKTusQjBs_FnZ2dnUU7-Y_NnZ2d@supernews.com> <2016Dec15.153114@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <xrGdnQ2zzu_MY8_FnZ2dnUU7-I_NnZ2d@supernews.com> <2016Dec16.091052@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <TpqdndZRZeYrksnFnZ2dnUU7-W_NnZ2d@supernews.com> |
Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes:
>Anton Ertl <anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
>> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes:
>>>Anton Ertl <anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
>>>> but if two programmers disagree on aesthetics, they should find
>>>> technical arguments supporting their case or shut up. After all,
>>>> de gustibus non est disputandum.
>>>
>>>But that is to presume that any question which cannot in principle be
>>>answered in a definite and indisputable way is not worth discussing.
>>
>> No, there can be objective arguments for several sides of the issue,
>> and it's worth discussing and weighing those, and maybe look for more
>> technical arguments, in order to make the final decision.
>
>But that's still to assume that questions which have objective
>arguments are the only ones worth discussing
Certainly. What point is there in discussing subjective preferences?
A: I like blue.
B: I am not a fan of blue.
Moderator: Good discussion.
> and that technical
>arguments are automagically more meritorious than non-technical ones.
For certain values of "technical", they are; I actually used
"objective" to confer what I mean.
>> But if the only argument you have is "I don't like ...", "I am not a
>> fan of ...", or the like, and if others disagree, and also have only
>> subjective reasons, then yes, this is not worth discussing. What
>> would you base the discussion on, after all?
>
>An exchange of opinions: I'm interested in what people think.
Sure, everybody can express their subjective preferences, but that's
not a discussion, and since the preferences are subjective, there is
no point in discussing them further. What else should be discussed in
the exchange between A and B above?
>I think you're dangerously close to falling into the logical
>positivist trap of declaring that only statements verifiable through
>empirical observation are meaningful.
This is not about statements, this is about discussions and
decision-making about technical issues by a group. The statement "I
am not a fan of blue" certainly is meaningful, but there is no point
in discussing it. A will not be able to convince B that blue is
preferable by expressing his subjective preference; nor will B be able
to convince A that blue is not preferable by expressing his subjective
preference.
>>>If we were all to take that view we'd miss a great deal of what is
>>>important and interesting. IMO.
>>
>> Such as?
>
>Almost any discussion of programming style and programming beauty.
While many such discussions are based more on religious beliefs than
on scientific knowledge, the arguments typically refer to objective
issues such as productivity, readability, maintainability, errors,
performance, etc., and they make claims that are in principle
falsifiable, even though not that much has been done in this area
(which is surprising, given the amount of money spent on developing
software).
Few people outside the Forth community try to convince others in such
discussions with statements like "I am not a fan of ..."; they may
state their preference, but they then typically also support it with
some objective argument. E.g., in the book "Beautiful Code", many of
the authors argue that their code is beautiful because it is efficient.
>A
>lot of what we do is driven as much by psychology as anything strictly
>technical. I'll grant you that it is possible to measure some of this
>by, for example, looking at the error rates and productivity of
>different programming styles, but that doesn't really capture the
>essence of what it means for a program to be elegant.
For me it does. Sure, there is some intuitive reaction to seeing some
program, and considering it elegant or not, just as there is for
everything, but that intuition is based on objective issues, and it is
honed by then considering the program in more depth and re-evaluating
it with respect to objective criteria.
- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
EuroForth 2016: http://www.euroforth.org/ef16/
Back to comp.lang.forth | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread
f.) for Gorth josv@planet.nl - 2016-12-06 03:40 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-06 15:48 +0100
Re: f.) for Gorth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-06 17:59 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth josv@planet.nl - 2016-12-06 13:17 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-07 11:11 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-12-07 06:11 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-07 17:50 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-07 15:23 +0100
Re: f.) for Gorth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-08 16:18 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth josv@planet.nl - 2016-12-07 06:46 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-07 17:41 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-06 10:34 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth josv@planet.nl - 2016-12-09 12:11 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-12-23 13:23 +1100
Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-15 15:42 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-12-07 13:06 +1100
Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-06 18:32 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-07 12:41 +0100
Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-07 19:49 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-12-08 08:12 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2016-12-08 18:53 -0500
Re: f.) for Gorth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-12-09 00:01 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-09 12:17 +0100
Re: f.) for Gorth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-09 13:01 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-12-09 11:19 +1100
Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-08 22:23 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-09 07:11 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-20 22:40 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-12-20 23:59 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-21 21:17 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth The Beez <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 08:51 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-09 12:47 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-12-10 11:54 +1100
Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-09 17:28 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-09 18:20 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-10 14:26 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth The Beez <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 09:14 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-13 19:24 +0100
Re: f.) for Gorth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-12-14 07:29 -0600
Re: f.) for Gorth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2016-12-14 18:29 +0100
Re: f.) for Gorth Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-12-14 10:13 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-12-15 03:45 -0600
Re: f.) for Gorth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-15 10:42 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-12-15 05:11 -0600
Re: f.) for Gorth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-15 12:36 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-12-15 07:33 -0600
Re: f.) for Gorth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-15 14:31 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-12-15 14:34 -0600
Re: f.) for Gorth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-12-15 16:20 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-12-15 16:46 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-12-17 09:23 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-12-19 02:56 -0600
Re: f.) for Gorth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-16 08:10 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-12-16 10:00 -0600
Re: f.) for Gorth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-18 10:32 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-12-19 03:22 -0600
Re: f.) for Gorth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-16 14:14 +0100
Re: f.) for Gorth Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2016-12-19 19:41 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-12-20 03:02 -0600
Re: f.) for Gorth mhx@iae.nl - 2016-12-20 01:27 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-20 12:35 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth Charles Montgomery <cgm@physics.utoledo.edu> - 2016-12-20 21:23 -0500
Re: f.) for Gorth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-21 07:29 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth Charles Montgomery <cgm@physics.utoledo.edu> - 2016-12-21 22:24 -0500
Re: f.) for Gorth "David N. Williams" <williams@umich.edu> - 2016-12-22 08:10 -0500
Re: f.) for Gorth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-22 17:39 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-15 12:53 +0100
Re: f.) for Gorth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-12-15 05:59 -0600
Re: f.) for Gorth "Robert L." <No_spamming@noWhere_7073.org> - 2017-01-03 16:15 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-14 17:06 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-12-18 10:58 +1100
Re: f.) for Gorth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-12-17 17:26 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-12-19 13:16 +1100
Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-18 19:19 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth john <anon@example.com> - 2016-12-19 11:03 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2016-12-20 01:46 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth john <anon@example.com> - 2016-12-20 12:14 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-20 17:34 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-12-18 19:25 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-18 19:45 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-12-22 11:32 +1100
Re: f.) for Gorth Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2017-01-03 19:33 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-03 22:13 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-01-04 23:03 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-06 22:52 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-01-07 22:45 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-07 17:23 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-01-08 09:13 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2017-01-08 17:10 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-01-09 10:22 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth stephen@mpeforth.com - 2017-01-08 07:00 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-20 14:09 +0200
Re: f.) for Gorth Matthias Trute <matthias.trute@gmail.com> - 2017-01-11 01:14 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-07 12:26 +0100
Re: f.) for Gorth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-12-08 10:21 +1100
Re: f.) for Gorth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-20 15:45 +0100
Re: f.) for Gorth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-12-20 15:33 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-12-22 11:37 +1100
Re: f.) for Gorth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-22 14:19 +0100
Re: f.) for Gorth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-12-23 12:11 +1100
Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-22 17:49 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-12-23 20:41 +1100
Re: f.) for Gorth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-20 14:21 +0200
Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-15 22:31 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-16 18:26 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-18 16:41 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth stephen@mpeforth.com - 2016-12-20 02:20 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-12-20 13:04 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-20 17:27 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-17 10:36 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-12-17 11:51 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-18 19:35 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-19 14:17 +0100
Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-19 10:10 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-12-19 20:33 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-19 18:11 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-12-19 19:03 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-12-20 08:10 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-20 18:05 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth - what is a number? Jan Coombs <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com> - 2016-12-21 09:04 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-12-20 15:26 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-12-20 11:30 -0600
Language stds (was Re: f.) for Gorth) Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-12-20 19:49 +0000
Re: Language stds (was Re: f.) for Gorth) john <anon@example.com> - 2016-12-20 20:06 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-20 17:52 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-12-21 13:47 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-21 20:46 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-12-22 14:33 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-22 07:06 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-12-22 07:21 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-12-23 07:41 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-12-23 08:33 +0000
Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-23 18:22 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-12-23 20:28 -0800
Re: f.) for Gorth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-26 18:30 -0800
Language stds (Re: f.) for Gorth) "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-12-24 12:12 +1100
Re: Language stds (Re: f.) for Gorth) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-12-24 03:28 -0600
Re: Language stds (Re: f.) for Gorth) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-12-24 10:02 -0600
Re: Language stds (Re: f.) for Gorth) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-24 16:13 -0800
Re: Language stds (Re: f.) for Gorth) Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-12-24 18:13 +0000
Re: Language stds (Re: f.) for Gorth) "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-12-28 09:24 +1100
Re: Language stds (Re: f.) for Gorth) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-12-27 17:10 -0600
Re: Language stds (Re: f.) for Gorth) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-27 22:58 -0800
Re: Language stds (Re: f.) for Gorth) "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-12-29 10:12 +1100
Re: Language stds (Re: f.) for Gorth) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-12-29 17:03 -0800
Re: Language stds (Re: f.) for Gorth) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-29 19:35 -0800
Re: Language stds (Re: f.) for Gorth) Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-12-30 05:27 -0800
Re: Language stds (Re: f.) for Gorth) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-30 19:11 -0800
Re: Language stds (Re: f.) for Gorth) hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-12-31 06:42 -0800
csiph-web