Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops

From	Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops
Date	2016-12-15 01:13 -0800
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<kfnr359ftcm.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu> (permalink)
References	(10 earlier) <o2d5te$i66$1@jstuckle.eternal-september.org> <e40ed64b-ff5f-4aa7-b93e-990e84a6186e@googlegroups.com> <388c4205-e3f5-45af-961d-ce6bb8147322@googlegroups.com> <kfnshprilh4.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu> <9f4512be-40bb-4d4f-abb6-6d0bffb5171e@googlegroups.com>

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jameskuyper@verizon.net writes:

> On Tuesday, December 13, 2016 at 4:10:39 PM UTC-5, Tim Rentsch wrote:
>> supercat@casperkitty.com writes:
>>
>>> On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 10:16:27 PM UTC-6, james...@verizon.net wrote:
>>>> The C standard defines what a conforming implementation of C does.
>>>> Part of what it's required to do is done, on most platforms, by a
>>>> linker.  The C standard imposes no requirements on the linker
>>>> itself.  But if a implementation cannot meet the C standard's
>>>> requirements while using th standard linker for a given platform,
>>>> because that linker doesn't handle linkage in a way that's
>>>> compatible with the C standard's requirements, then a conforming
>>>> implementation of C for that platform would have to provide a
>>>> non-standard linker of it's own.  This is, in fact, what happens
>>>> with C++ on many platforms.  If such a platform did not allow the
>>>> use of non-standard linkers, then a fully conforming implementation
>>>> of C would not be possible for that platform.
>>>
>>> Very few real C implementations are sold, since a C implementation
>>> would need to include not only software but also the execution
>>> platform necessary to run the program in question.
>>
>> A common misconception.  The C standard explicitly places such
>> things as hardware and operating system (aka "data processing
>> system") outside the realm of implementation, in section 1 of
>> the ISO standard, and has since the initial version in 1990.
>
> True.  However, the C standard does define an implementation as a
> "particular set of software, running in a particular translation
> environment under particular control options, that performs
> translation of programs for, and supports execution of functions in,
> a particular execution environment".  Note the phrase "running".  An
> implementation is NOT an implementation except when it it running.
> Therefore, while the "data processing system" is not part of the
> implementation, is is needed in order for something else to qualify
> as an implementation.

I think we are assuming somewhat different semantic contexts for
our respective statements.  Let me see if I can clarify that so
things don't get confused.

I think your comments are meant in a semantic context of how the
text of the Standard should be read, parsed, and interpreted.
Another way of saying this is that your comments are (I think)
made in the sense of what the Standard "really means" or
"literally says".

My comments are meant in a semantic context of what WG14 views
the Standard as saying.  In this semantic context the actual text
can give an indication of what is meant, but the only thing that
counts is what WG14 thinks it means.  I find it useful, in
comp.lang.c, to try to operate in this semantic context rather
than a different one.

Does this assessment seem right to you?  If so, I believe we are
working in basically disjoint universes, and there isn't much
more to say.  If that doesn't seem right, or if you want to
say something specifically about what WG14 would say on the
matter, then please continue.

Thread

Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Potomac <ravine557@gmail.com> - 2016-12-05 06:32 -0800
  Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2016-12-05 08:34 -0700
    Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-12-05 15:43 +0000
      Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2016-12-05 10:41 -0700
  Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-12-05 15:37 +0000
  Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2016-12-05 10:43 -0800
    Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops potomac <ravine557@gmail.com> - 2016-12-07 01:13 -0800
      Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-07 10:55 +0000
        Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2016-12-07 20:34 -0800
          Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-08 11:08 +0000
    Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-08 08:23 +1300
  Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops potomac <ravine557@gmail.com> - 2016-12-07 01:07 -0800
    Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2016-12-07 08:46 -0700
      Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-12-07 16:23 +0000
  Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops potomac <ravine557@gmail.com> - 2016-12-07 01:12 -0800
    Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2016-12-07 08:49 -0700
    Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2016-12-07 15:07 -0800
  Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops potomac <ravine557@gmail.com> - 2016-12-07 03:46 -0800
    Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-07 11:59 +0000
    Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-12-07 12:05 +0000
      Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-07 09:40 -0800
        Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-12-07 15:13 -0500
          Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-12-07 20:24 +0000
            Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-12-07 16:28 -0500
              Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-12-07 21:48 +0000
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-12-07 17:02 -0500
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-12-07 22:19 +0000
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-12-07 17:27 -0500
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-12-07 22:51 +0000
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-12-08 09:10 -0500
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-12-08 14:13 +0000
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-08 15:57 +0100
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-08 18:02 +1300
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-08 08:48 -0800
          Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2016-12-07 15:33 -0800
            Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-12-08 09:13 -0500
              Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-12-08 14:22 +0000
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-08 16:03 +0100
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-12-08 10:44 -0500
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2016-12-08 15:48 +0000
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-12-08 21:41 -0500
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-12-08 16:16 +0000
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-12-08 21:47 -0500
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2016-12-08 20:16 -0800
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-09 11:19 +0100
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-09 08:00 -0800
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-12-13 13:10 -0800
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2016-12-13 13:55 -0800
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-12-15 01:13 -0800
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2016-12-15 07:02 -0800
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-12-15 19:56 -0800
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-18 10:00 -0800
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-14 11:45 -0800
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-14 12:14 -0800
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-12-15 01:24 -0800
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-15 08:02 -0800
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-15 12:10 -0800
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2016-12-16 20:00 -0800
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-12-09 11:05 -0500
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-12-09 16:21 +0000
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2016-12-09 13:10 -0800
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-12-09 23:44 -0500
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-10 10:18 -0800
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-12-11 16:18 -0500
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-12-09 08:26 +0000
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-12-09 11:15 -0500
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-12-09 16:31 +0000
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-12-09 23:47 -0500
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-12-11 16:05 +0000
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-12-11 16:21 -0500
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-12-11 23:15 +0000
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-12-11 18:57 -0500
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-12-12 00:05 +0000
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-12-11 21:09 -0500
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-12-12 08:25 +0000
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-12-10 07:59 -0800
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2016-12-08 13:51 -0800
              Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2016-12-08 13:34 -0800
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-12-08 21:52 -0500
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2016-12-08 19:33 -0800
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-12-09 11:20 -0500
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2016-12-09 13:28 -0800
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-12-09 23:51 -0500
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-12-09 16:46 +0000
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-12-09 13:55 -0500
        Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-12-07 20:17 +0000
          Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-07 12:23 -0800
    Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops twalker470@googlemail.com - 2016-12-07 05:50 -0800
    Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2016-12-07 08:55 -0700
      Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-12-07 16:23 +0000
        Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2016-12-07 10:56 -0700
  Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops potomac <ravine557@gmail.com> - 2016-12-07 04:14 -0800
    Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Barry Schwarz <schwarzb@dqel.com> - 2016-12-07 11:03 -0800
  Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2016-12-09 08:06 -0800
    Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-09 09:23 -0800
      Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-12-09 17:38 +0000
        Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-12-09 14:01 -0500
          Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-12-09 19:09 +0000
            Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2016-12-09 12:38 -0700
        Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-12-10 00:08 -0500
          Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-12-10 00:16 -0500
      Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-12-09 23:59 -0500
        Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-10 11:51 +0000
          Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-12-11 16:22 -0500
            Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-11 21:52 +0000
              Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-12-11 22:32 -0500
                Re: Stumped on the role of a particular statement in a program with Arrays & Nested For Loops Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-12 04:18 +0000

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