Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]
Groups > comp.lang.forth > #40985
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.forth |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-07-30 15:11 -0700 |
| References | <mp8o6q$plc$1@dont-email.me> <mpdupl$e5f$1@dont-email.me> <4240ad80-87a4-4f31-ad22-17219c5ce92a@googlegroups.com> |
| Message-ID | <f5dbb032-82be-48e8-810a-e7318ef0fd58@googlegroups.com> (permalink) |
| Subject | Re: RfD: Quotations |
| From | Julian Fondren <ayrnieu@gmail.com> |
On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 3:25:04 PM UTC-5, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 12:45:24 PM UTC-7, Bernd Paysan wrote:
> > Quotations are some simple syntactic sugar for
> > higher order functions, nothing more.
>
> You don't know the difference between a quotation and a higher-order function --- you are an ignoramus ---
It gets worse. I just opened the gforth manual to a random page,
http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/Docs-html/Files-Tutorial.html#Files-Tutorial
"1. Opened an ASCII text file for input "
the gforth developers think that files are *input*!! They don't know the
difference between a file and the entire concept of a program accepting
data somehow!! Do they think that zfs is an innovative input system!?
"2. Opened a file for output "
LOL WHAT LUNATICS. They simultaneously think that files are *output*!
It'd be bad enough if they literally didn't know what a file, input, or
output was, but they also believe that things are their own opposites!
> On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 12:45:24 PM UTC-7, Bernd Paysan wrote:
> > Quotations are some simple syntactic sugar for
> > higher order functions, nothing more.
The reasonable alternatives to this are "nothing" and "lambdas, with real
lexical scoping and garbage collection". The former has a lot of
proponents, and code that uses quotations can easily be changed to no
longer use quotations, if it's ported to a Forth without them. Although
it's probably only slightly harder (less code to change; more
understanding required, of the environment) to add support for such
quotations on any Forth that such code is ported to. The latter have few
proponents, are enormously more involved to implement, and for all the
trouble, you don't get much more from them. There are lots of cute things
you can do with lambdas, but Forth can generally already do those things
with less handwaving. All you get, and what the hardworking sub-lambda
people are content with achieving, is that your higher-order words can be
less disciplined about the stack that they present to the quotations they
accept. You get to have a messy stack. You have to use locals in dozens
of different words instead of just *once* in the higher-order word. How
useful.
Standardizing quotations would mean standardizing something that's already
a few lines of code in any reasonable Forth (it seems like). It's in the
wild, it's easy to spread, people might like to definitively know what
they can do with such things.
Although, speaking of the standard, right now, as far as I know, zero
systems implement {: :} , and actually call it that. Just as one example,
in a group where people repeatedly cite *user* non-adoption of that
spelling as an argument against it. Are Forth implementers really
interested in following Forth-200x?
And yeah, I cringed when the dynamically scoped variables were proposed in
this thread, and defended as sufficiently like lexical variables. Just
use bloody VARIABLEs and write a dynamic-set , as recently described. If
dynamic-set is spelled !! , then your 'locals' can be replaced with
VARIABLE a VARIABLE b
: blah ...
[: a !! b !! a b + a ! a @ do-something b more-manipulations
\ at the end of this quotation, a and b's values are reset
;] ... ;
i.e., the perl4-style local() instead of the newer my().
-- Julian
Back to comp.lang.forth | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread
RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-28 21:22 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-07-29 07:35 +0000
Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-29 14:20 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2015-07-29 13:44 +0300
Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-29 13:42 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-07-29 05:35 -0700
Re: RfD: Quotations anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-07-29 13:34 +0000
Re: RfD: Quotations Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-07-29 07:35 -0700
Re: RfD: Quotations anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-07-29 15:05 +0000
Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-29 16:19 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-07-29 21:48 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations mhx@iae.nl - 2015-07-29 11:13 -0700
Re: RfD: Quotations anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-07-30 13:04 +0000
Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-29 15:07 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-07-29 07:44 -0700
Re: RfD: Quotations anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-07-29 15:12 +0000
Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-29 16:18 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations Bernd Linsel <bl1@gmx.com> - 2015-07-29 18:37 +0200
Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-29 17:55 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-07-29 19:51 -0500
Re: RfD: Quotations Bernd Linsel <bl1@gmx.com> - 2015-07-30 03:31 +0200
Re: RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-07-29 19:30 -0700
Re: RfD: Quotations Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-07-29 21:19 -0700
Re: RfD: Quotations Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-07-29 21:37 -0700
Re: RfD: Quotations anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-07-30 11:45 +0000
Re: RfD: Quotations Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-07-30 08:07 -0700
Re: RfD: Quotations anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-07-31 10:54 +0000
Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-31 12:48 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-07-31 05:40 -0700
Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-31 14:46 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-31 14:50 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-07-31 14:46 +0000
Re: RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-07-31 13:16 -0700
Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-31 21:49 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-07-29 22:42 -0700
Re: RfD: Quotations "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-07-30 08:46 -0500
Re: RfD: Quotations Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-07-29 21:40 -0700
Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-30 10:01 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations Bernd Linsel <bl1@gmx.com> - 2015-07-30 12:00 +0200
Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-30 11:10 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2015-07-30 16:35 +0200
Re: RfD: Quotations anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-07-29 16:53 +0000
Re: RfD: Quotations Bernd Linsel <bl1@gmx.com> - 2015-07-29 19:03 +0200
Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-29 18:24 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations Bernd Linsel <bl1@gmx.com> - 2015-07-30 01:38 +0200
Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-30 09:10 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations Bernd Linsel <bl1@gmx.com> - 2015-07-30 12:06 +0200
Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-30 11:21 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations Bernd Linsel <bl1@gmx.com> - 2015-07-30 14:00 +0200
Re: RfD: Quotations franck.bensusan@gmail.com - 2015-07-30 06:59 -0700
Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-31 10:53 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-07-29 10:35 -0700
Re: RfD: Quotations Bernd Linsel <bl1@gmx.com> - 2015-07-30 01:45 +0200
Re: RfD: Quotations Bernd Linsel <bl1@gmx.com> - 2015-07-30 03:17 +0200
Re: RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-07-29 19:21 -0700
Re: RfD: Quotations Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-07-29 23:04 -0700
Re: RfD: Quotations Bernd Linsel <bl1@gmx.com> - 2015-07-30 12:38 +0200
Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-30 12:09 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations Bernd Linsel <bl1@gmx.com> - 2015-07-30 13:26 +0200
Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-31 09:47 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-07-31 02:51 -0700
Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-31 11:21 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-30 09:11 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-07-29 11:36 -0700
Re: RfD: Quotations Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-07-29 11:37 -0700
Re: RfD: Quotations anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-07-30 13:07 +0000
Re: RfD: Quotations Bernd Linsel <bl1@gmx.com> - 2015-07-30 16:25 +0200
Re: RfD: Quotations mhx@iae.nl - 2015-07-29 11:16 -0700
Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-29 20:27 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-07-29 21:57 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-29 22:48 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-07-31 12:34 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-31 13:00 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-07-31 14:31 +0000
Re: RfD: Quotations mhx@iae.nl - 2015-07-31 11:32 -0700
Re: RfD: Quotations mhx@iae.nl - 2015-07-29 21:42 -0700
Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-30 09:57 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-07-29 17:21 -0700
Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-30 09:56 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations franck.bensusan@gmail.com - 2015-07-30 04:15 -0700
Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-30 12:30 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations franck.bensusan@gmail.com - 2015-07-30 05:04 -0700
Re: RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-07-30 13:07 -0700
Re: RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-07-29 16:52 -0700
Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-30 09:53 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-07-30 21:45 +0200
Re: RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-07-30 13:25 -0700
Re: RfD: Quotations Julian Fondren <ayrnieu@gmail.com> - 2015-07-30 15:11 -0700
Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-31 09:11 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-07-31 12:04 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-30 22:51 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-07-30 22:38 -0700
Re: RfD: Quotations "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-07-31 02:10 -0400
Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-31 09:01 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-08-01 14:59 -0700
Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-08-01 23:36 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-02 01:19 +0200
Re: RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-08-01 18:27 -0700
Re: RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-08-09 14:34 -0700
Re: RfD: Quotations anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-07-31 08:52 +0000
Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-31 11:57 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-07-31 21:42 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-31 22:25 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-07-31 23:39 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-08-01 10:59 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-08-01 14:18 +0000
Re: RfD: Quotations Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-01 22:10 +0200
Re: RfD: Quotations anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-08-02 05:36 +0000
Re: RfD: Quotations Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-08-03 16:40 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-08-03 18:02 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-08-03 20:22 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2015-08-04 02:10 +0200
Re: RfD: Quotations Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-08-04 08:49 +0100
Re: RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-08-01 15:15 -0700
csiph-web