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Re: RfD: Quotations

From "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: RfD: Quotations
Date 2015-07-30 22:51 +0100
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <mpe65k$bad$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References <mp8o6q$plc$1@dont-email.me> <mpdupl$e5f$1@dont-email.me>

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on 30/07/2015 20:45:18, Bernd Paysan wrote:
> Alex McDonald wrote:
> 
>> It is not possible to define quotations in ISO Forth. The following
>> is an outline definition.
>>
>> : [: ( -- c: nested-sys )
>> postpone ahead :noname ; immediate
>>
>> : ;] ( c: nested-sys -- ) ( -- xt )
>> postpone ; postpone then ; immediate
> 
> If you want to use an outline definition, at least try to get the "add
> runtime" right:
> 
>: [: ( -- c:quotation-sys )
> postpone ahead save-definition-state :noname ; immediate
>: ;] ( c:quotation-sys -- ) ( -- xt )
> postpone ; >r restore-definition-state
> postpone then r> postpone literal ; immediate

Yes. Anton has already addressed this point and I replied to say that
I'll update shortly in a second draft.

> 
> I'd write "a standard programm may not access local variables of the
> outer definition inside the quotation" instead of the ambiguous
> condition. Many ambiguous conditions are simple error cases (and
> therefore, quality implementations should produce an error), but in
> this case, you want to deliberately allow non-standard programs on
> non-standard systems to access the outer local variables.

By MAY NOT I presume you mean (in the spirit of
https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt) SHOULD NOT.

> 
> Wether that's a good idea is part of the debate, and IMHO there's too
> much debate in that direction. Quotations are some simple syntactic
> sugar for higher order functions, nothing more. And the first-class
> element to pass things in Forth is the stack, not outer locals.

Agreed. However, there's a (admittedly remote) chance that the
conversation may turn up something of interest.

> 
> My use of quotations like [: foo ; comp: bar ;] would indicate that a
> quotation-sys is (and must be) actually a ( c:nest c:colon ) pair (or
> triple, including the orig from AHEAD), but that use can be
> non-standard, too, like the access to outer locals.
> 

Best as quotation-sys (which will be changed from the current nest-sys in
the original post).

> Reference implementations, even incomplete, like the above (leaving
> save- definition-state and restore-definition-state to the
> implementer) are usually used as inspiration for both implementations
> and use.
>

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RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-28 21:22 +0100
  Re: RfD: Quotations anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-07-29 07:35 +0000
    Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-29 14:20 +0100
  Re: RfD: Quotations Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2015-07-29 13:44 +0300
    Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-29 13:42 +0100
  Re: RfD: Quotations Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-07-29 05:35 -0700
    Re: RfD: Quotations anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-07-29 13:34 +0000
      Re: RfD: Quotations Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-07-29 07:35 -0700
        Re: RfD: Quotations anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-07-29 15:05 +0000
        Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-29 16:19 +0100
          Re: RfD: Quotations Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-07-29 21:48 +0100
      Re: RfD: Quotations mhx@iae.nl - 2015-07-29 11:13 -0700
        Re: RfD: Quotations anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-07-30 13:04 +0000
    Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-29 15:07 +0100
      Re: RfD: Quotations Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-07-29 07:44 -0700
        Re: RfD: Quotations anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-07-29 15:12 +0000
        Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-29 16:18 +0100
          Re: RfD: Quotations Bernd Linsel <bl1@gmx.com> - 2015-07-29 18:37 +0200
            Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-29 17:55 +0100
              Re: RfD: Quotations "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-07-29 19:51 -0500
                Re: RfD: Quotations Bernd Linsel <bl1@gmx.com> - 2015-07-30 03:31 +0200
                Re: RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-07-29 19:30 -0700
                Re: RfD: Quotations Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-07-29 21:19 -0700
                Re: RfD: Quotations Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-07-29 21:37 -0700
                Re: RfD: Quotations anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-07-30 11:45 +0000
                Re: RfD: Quotations Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-07-30 08:07 -0700
                Re: RfD: Quotations anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-07-31 10:54 +0000
                Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-31 12:48 +0100
                Re: RfD: Quotations Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-07-31 05:40 -0700
                Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-31 14:46 +0100
                Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-31 14:50 +0100
                Re: RfD: Quotations anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-07-31 14:46 +0000
                Re: RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-07-31 13:16 -0700
                Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-31 21:49 +0100
                Re: RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-07-29 22:42 -0700
                Re: RfD: Quotations "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-07-30 08:46 -0500
                Re: RfD: Quotations Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-07-29 21:40 -0700
                Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-30 10:01 +0100
                Re: RfD: Quotations Bernd Linsel <bl1@gmx.com> - 2015-07-30 12:00 +0200
                Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-30 11:10 +0100
                Re: RfD: Quotations Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2015-07-30 16:35 +0200
            Re: RfD: Quotations anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-07-29 16:53 +0000
          Re: RfD: Quotations Bernd Linsel <bl1@gmx.com> - 2015-07-29 19:03 +0200
            Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-29 18:24 +0100
              Re: RfD: Quotations Bernd Linsel <bl1@gmx.com> - 2015-07-30 01:38 +0200
                Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-30 09:10 +0100
                Re: RfD: Quotations Bernd Linsel <bl1@gmx.com> - 2015-07-30 12:06 +0200
                Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-30 11:21 +0100
                Re: RfD: Quotations Bernd Linsel <bl1@gmx.com> - 2015-07-30 14:00 +0200
                Re: RfD: Quotations franck.bensusan@gmail.com - 2015-07-30 06:59 -0700
                Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-31 10:53 +0100
            Re: RfD: Quotations Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-07-29 10:35 -0700
              Re: RfD: Quotations Bernd Linsel <bl1@gmx.com> - 2015-07-30 01:45 +0200
                Re: RfD: Quotations Bernd Linsel <bl1@gmx.com> - 2015-07-30 03:17 +0200
                Re: RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-07-29 19:21 -0700
                Re: RfD: Quotations Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-07-29 23:04 -0700
                Re: RfD: Quotations Bernd Linsel <bl1@gmx.com> - 2015-07-30 12:38 +0200
                Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-30 12:09 +0100
                Re: RfD: Quotations Bernd Linsel <bl1@gmx.com> - 2015-07-30 13:26 +0200
                Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-31 09:47 +0100
                Re: RfD: Quotations Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2015-07-31 02:51 -0700
                Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-31 11:21 +0100
                Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-30 09:11 +0100
            Re: RfD: Quotations Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-07-29 11:36 -0700
              Re: RfD: Quotations Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-07-29 11:37 -0700
            Re: RfD: Quotations anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-07-30 13:07 +0000
              Re: RfD: Quotations Bernd Linsel <bl1@gmx.com> - 2015-07-30 16:25 +0200
          Re: RfD: Quotations mhx@iae.nl - 2015-07-29 11:16 -0700
            Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-29 20:27 +0100
              Re: RfD: Quotations Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-07-29 21:57 +0100
                Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-29 22:48 +0100
                Re: RfD: Quotations Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-07-31 12:34 +0100
                Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-31 13:00 +0100
                Re: RfD: Quotations anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-07-31 14:31 +0000
                Re: RfD: Quotations mhx@iae.nl - 2015-07-31 11:32 -0700
              Re: RfD: Quotations mhx@iae.nl - 2015-07-29 21:42 -0700
                Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-30 09:57 +0100
          Re: RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-07-29 17:21 -0700
            Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-30 09:56 +0100
              Re: RfD: Quotations franck.bensusan@gmail.com - 2015-07-30 04:15 -0700
                Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-30 12:30 +0100
                Re: RfD: Quotations franck.bensusan@gmail.com - 2015-07-30 05:04 -0700
                Re: RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-07-30 13:07 -0700
  Re: RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-07-29 16:52 -0700
    Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-30 09:53 +0100
  Re: RfD: Quotations Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-07-30 21:45 +0200
    Re: RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-07-30 13:25 -0700
      Re: RfD: Quotations Julian Fondren <ayrnieu@gmail.com> - 2015-07-30 15:11 -0700
        Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-31 09:11 +0100
          Re: RfD: Quotations Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-07-31 12:04 +0100
    Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-30 22:51 +0100
      Re: RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-07-30 22:38 -0700
        Re: RfD: Quotations "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-07-31 02:10 -0400
        Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-31 09:01 +0100
          Re: RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-08-01 14:59 -0700
            Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-08-01 23:36 +0100
              Re: RfD: Quotations Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-02 01:19 +0200
                Re: RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-08-01 18:27 -0700
                Re: RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-08-09 14:34 -0700
  Re: RfD: Quotations anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-07-31 08:52 +0000
    Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-31 11:57 +0100
  Re: RfD: Quotations Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-07-31 21:42 +0100
    Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-07-31 22:25 +0100
      Re: RfD: Quotations Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-07-31 23:39 +0100
        Re: RfD: Quotations Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-08-01 10:59 +0100
    Re: RfD: Quotations anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-08-01 14:18 +0000
      Re: RfD: Quotations Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-08-01 22:10 +0200
        Re: RfD: Quotations anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-08-02 05:36 +0000
          Re: RfD: Quotations Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-08-03 16:40 +0100
            Re: RfD: Quotations "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-08-03 18:02 +0100
              Re: RfD: Quotations Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-08-03 20:22 +0100
            Re: RfD: Quotations Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2015-08-04 02:10 +0200
              Re: RfD: Quotations Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-08-04 08:49 +0100
  Re: RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-08-01 15:15 -0700

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