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Groups > linux.debian.devel > #113442

Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie

From Chris Hofstaedtler <zeha@debian.org>
Newsgroups linux.debian.devel
Subject Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie
Date 2024-09-22 12:30 +0200
Message-ID <Jps0O-e2M3-11@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References <JoJQ7-dBrt-9@gated-at.bofh.it>
Organization linux.* mail to news gateway

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* Lukas Märdian <slyon@debian.org> [240920 13:13]:
> I've repeated the reasons why I think a hybrid stack using Netplan is a
> feasible solution many times in previous threads, therefore I'd like to refer
> to a list of frequently asked questions, instead of spreading more reasons
> across more replies: https://wiki.debian.org/Netplan/FAQ
> 
> # Why
> The ifupdown package is a Debian only solution that is becoming a maintenance
> burden. We've had plenty of discussions over the years and consensus is that we
> want to get rid of it.
> Some variations of Debian have already moved forward with choosing a different
> stack, such as desktop/laptop installations (using NetworkManager) and cloud
> images (using Netplan+systemd-networkd). Also, ifupdown-ng exists as a modern
> re-implementation of the classic tooling, that strives to become drop-in
> [compatible].

Thanks for providing the FAQ and this "Why" section, but it seems to
leave open why we would want or need netplan as the default. As the
FAQ shows, netplan is available as an optional package in many
distros. The same is already true in Debian thanks to you.

For your described usecase groups, which seem to clearly map to the
backends used by netplan, I do not see what netplan brings to the
table. The "server" group supposedly wants (and I agree) networkd,
but they also want the configuration interface of networkd.
The "laptop" group supposedly wants (and I agree) NetworkManager,
but they also want the configuration interface of NetworkManager.

Who actually wants the configuration interface of netplan,
especially by default?

I see nobody saying "yet another layer is a lot of fun!", and the
usecase groups do not overlap that much, that they both would *need*
the same interface? The opposite seems to apply.

> PS: I know this proposal doesn't please everybody, but I think it's the most
> actionable option that we have on the table and strikes a good compromise. As a
> replacement for ifupdown is overdue, we should adopt our network stack for
> Trixie.

d-i could make (or offer) a choice between networkd and
NetworkManager. Doesn't have to be netplan. I can vaguely see how
d-i might be simpler by writing netplan config, but it still has to
make a choice of the default backend? And then what does netplan
help here?

Given d-i then will have to make a choice, *none* of the networking
stack packages should have a "Priority:" higher than optional. As
in, even if we would go with netplan in d-i, there is no "default"
anymore and people have to make choices.

Best,
Chris

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proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Lukas Märdian <slyon@debian.org> - 2024-09-20 13:20 +0200
  Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2024-09-20 15:50 +0200
    Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Bill MacAllister <bill@ca-zephyr.org> - 2024-09-20 22:20 +0200
  Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Chris Hofstaedtler <zeha@debian.org> - 2024-09-22 12:30 +0200
    Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2024-09-22 13:10 +0200
      Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Chris Hofstaedtler <zeha@debian.org> - 2024-09-22 13:50 +0200
        Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie "Jonathan Dowland" <jmtd@debian.org> - 2024-09-22 16:50 +0200
          Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2024-09-22 17:20 +0200
        Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Hakan Bayındır <hakan@bayindir.org> - 2024-09-22 23:30 +0200
    Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2024-09-22 13:10 +0200
      Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Josh Triplett <josh@joshtriplett.org> - 2024-09-22 20:10 +0200
        Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie "Andrea Pappacoda" <andrea@pappacoda.it> - 2024-09-22 22:40 +0200
          Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Josh Triplett <josh@joshtriplett.org> - 2024-09-23 00:10 +0200
            Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Lukas Märdian <slyon@debian.org> - 2024-09-23 12:40 +0200
    Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Lukas Märdian <slyon@debian.org> - 2024-09-23 13:10 +0200
      Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2024-09-23 14:10 +0200
      Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Marvin Renich <mrvn@renich.org> - 2024-09-23 14:50 +0200
      Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Didier 'OdyX' Raboud <odyx@debian.org> - 2024-09-23 15:00 +0200
      Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Daniel Baumann <daniel@debian.org> - 2024-09-24 08:10 +0200
    Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-09-24 14:20 +0200
  Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Ansgar 🙀 <ansgar@debian.org> - 2024-09-22 16:30 +0200
    Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Lukas Märdian <slyon@debian.org> - 2024-09-23 12:30 +0200
      Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Ansgar 🙀 <ansgar@debian.org> - 2024-09-23 12:50 +0200
        Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Lukas Märdian <slyon@debian.org> - 2024-09-23 13:20 +0200
          Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Richard Lewis <richard.lewis.debian@googlemail.com> - 2024-09-23 13:40 +0200
            Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Lukas Märdian <slyon@debian.org> - 2024-09-24 15:40 +0200
              Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Ansgar 🙀 <ansgar@debian.org> - 2024-09-27 10:10 +0200
          Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Bjørn Mork <bjorn@mork.no> - 2024-09-23 14:20 +0200
        Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> - 2024-09-27 20:20 +0200
          Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Ansgar 🙀 <ansgar@debian.org> - 2024-09-27 21:10 +0200
  Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Sirius <sirius@trudheim.com> - 2024-09-22 17:50 +0200
    Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2024-09-22 23:50 +0200
      Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Sirius <sirius@trudheim.com> - 2024-09-23 08:30 +0200
        ifupdown-ng source stanza (Was: proposal: Hybrid network stack for  Trixie) Daniel Gröber <dxld@darkboxed.org> - 2024-09-23 11:00 +0200
          Re: ifupdown-ng source stanza (Was: proposal: Hybrid network stack  for Trixie) Sirius <sirius@trudheim.com> - 2024-09-24 13:40 +0200
  Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2024-09-23 10:10 +0200
    Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Chris Hofstaedtler <zeha@debian.org> - 2024-09-23 10:20 +0200
      Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2024-09-23 10:30 +0200
        Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2024-09-23 11:10 +0200
          Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Lukas Märdian <slyon@debian.org> - 2024-09-23 12:10 +0200
          Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2024-09-23 12:10 +0200
            Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Chris Hofstaedtler <zeha@debian.org> - 2024-09-23 12:30 +0200
  Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2024-09-23 11:40 +0200
    Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Chris Hofstaedtler <zeha@debian.org> - 2024-09-23 12:30 +0200
      ifupdown behaviour with IPv6 DAD failure (Was: proposal: Hybrid  network stack for Trixie) Daniel Gröber <dxld@darkboxed.org> - 2024-09-23 13:50 +0200
        Re: ifupdown behaviour with IPv6 DAD failure (Was: proposal: Hybrid  network stack for Trixie) Philipp Kern <pkern@debian.org> - 2024-09-23 17:50 +0200
          Re: ifupdown behaviour with IPv6 DAD failure (Was: proposal: Hybrid  network stack for Trixie) Noah Meyerhans <noahm@debian.org> - 2024-09-24 00:20 +0200
      Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2024-09-24 10:50 +0200
  Re: proposal: Hybrid network stack for Trixie Antoine Beaupré <anarcat@debian.org> - 2024-10-07 18:30 +0200

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