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Groups > linux.debian.user > #270008
| From | gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | linux.debian.user |
| Subject | Re: about 10th new install of bullseye |
| Date | 2024-06-09 08:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <INk4h-1DXQ-1@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink) |
| References | (5 earlier) <IMtjj-17aP-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <IMAb7-1bO3-3@gated-at.bofh.it> <IMSB3-1mYh-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <IMX7H-1pPF-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <INdFv-1zSx-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| Organization | linux.* mail to news gateway |
On 6/8/24 19:11, Tom Dial wrote:
>
>
> On 6/7/24 23:41, gene heskett wrote:
>> On 6/7/24 20:38, Tom Dial wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/6/24 23:14, gene heskett wrote:
>>>> On 6/6/24 19:00, Tom Dial wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 6/5/24 19:53, gene heskett wrote:
>>>>>> On 6/5/24 17:25, Tom Dial wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 6/5/24 08:58, gene heskett wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 6/5/24 02:05, Tom Dial wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 6/4/24 04:26, gene heskett wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2/19/22 06:31, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Gene,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If this was someone calling you from a TV station saying they
>>>>>>>>>>> had a TV
>>>>>>>>>>> transmitter that was varying in power output - you'd have a
>>>>>>>>>>> mental checklist.
>>>>>>>>>>> You'd get down there, perhaps schedule some sort of power
>>>>>>>>>>> down / reduced
>>>>>>>>>>> power operation and then you'd check - power supplies, feeder
>>>>>>>>>>> cables, hot
>>>>>>>>>>> spots on cables - whatever. Divide and conquer- working back
>>>>>>>>>>> to a baseline
>>>>>>>>>>> of known working conditions and eliminating causes.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> My suggestion to you of a reinstall is partly designed to get
>>>>>>>>>>> you out of this
>>>>>>>>>>> "X happens, I did Y, now I've got Z" - to get to a known
>>>>>>>>>>> initial state.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Take out all the serial converters to UPS, lathe and so on.
>>>>>>>>>>> Wireless keyboard
>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't present as serial in the same way that brltty does -
>>>>>>>>>>> if it did, I'd
>>>>>>>>>>> have brltty with every install on this laptop.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Copy off your home directory as you did before - maybe using
>>>>>>>>>>> tar.gz and preserving permissions. Start with the .iso that
>>>>>>>>>>> includes firmware - the unofficial one.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Build back slowly - do an expert text mode install if you
>>>>>>>>>>> can. Then add your
>>>>>>>>>>> Trinity desktop - I don't think any of us can help you there,
>>>>>>>>>>> since we don't
>>>>>>>>>>> run trinity.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Check and you should find that brltty isn't installed at all.
>>>>>>>>>>> Then re-add thingsgradually until you have the working system
>>>>>>>>>>> you want. Document it - write down
>>>>>>>>>>> the steps you take / copy configuration files you change.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That will also reveal logging / login slowdowns or whatever
>>>>>>>>>>> caused by
>>>>>>>>>>> individual devices as you add them back. Keep a list as you go.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That's the counsel of perfection: alternatively:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> apt rdepends brltty gives me:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> me@mymachine:~$ apt rdepends brltty
>>>>>>>>>>> brltty
>>>>>>>>>>> Reverse Depends:
>>>>>>>>>>> Suggests: speechd-el (>= 3.7.2)
>>>>>>>>>>> Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>>>> Suggests: orca
>>>>>>>>>>> Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>>>> Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>>>> Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You could try apt-get remove (or equivalent) on each of those
>>>>>>>>>>> packages and
>>>>>>>>>>> see if that clears it. I _know_ this is frustrating as all
>>>>>>>>>>> get out for you
>>>>>>>>>>> but a clear approach, written down so that you can remember
>>>>>>>>>>> where you got
>>>>>>>>>>> to will be very helpful.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Any attempt to remove cura or brltty, removes gnome leaving me I
>>>>>>>> assume with a text only system by the time gnome takes all its
>>>>>>>> dependency's with it. Thanks Tom.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Have you actually tried uninstalling brltty only, as a separate
>>>>>>> action from all others?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have a number of gnome installations, unfortunately for this
>>>>>>> discussion all bookworm. None of them has brltty.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have a few installations of bullseye and an older stretch
>>>>>>> installation, but none with gnome installed. On all of them,
>>>>>>> though, "apt-rdepends -r gnome" fails to list brltty as a gnome
>>>>>>> dependency. And on the bookworm systems, simulated installation
>>>>>>> of gnome ("apt install -s gnome") shows brltty as a suggested
>>>>>>> package only and would not install it along with gnome; on the
>>>>>>> stretch system, gnome installation makes no reference at all to
>>>>>>> brltty.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> While I have both with only the radio buttons for keyboard and
>>>>>> rodent plugged into usb at install time. I have only one wired
>>>>>> keyboard and no wired mice as I've had a lightning strike on the
>>>>>> pole that serves this house reach up and tap me by way of my
>>>>>> fingers on the keyboard. Wasn't that much of a tap, I've been
>>>>>> tapped a lot harder that that, hard enough to trigger a 6 month
>>>>>> round of shingles and the burns were months healing. And in this
>>>>>> case did not damage the keyboard or computer, but I did get the
>>>>>> message. I've had many strikes on that pole since I built a garage
>>>>>> on the end of the house, which caused me to install a 200 amp
>>>>>> service and bring my grounding specs up to NEC. Zero problems
>>>>>> since then (2008)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is it possible you have apt settings that automatically pull in
>>>>>>> suggested packages, and that is interfering with attempts to
>>>>>>> remove brltty? I am not expert enough wrt apt and its relatives
>>>>>>> to know whether that even makes sense, and it seems a bit far
>>>>>>> fetched if maybe barely possible.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Maybe if you post the output from "apt-rdepends -r brltty" and
>>>>>>> "apt purge --simulate brltty" it will be informative.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Neither of those utils are installed. Should they be?
>>>>>
>>>>> apt should be installed. As far as I know it has been included by
>>>>> default in the Debian base system as the preferred command line
>>>>> package management program since buster or earlier. I have never
>>>>> had to install it. You probably should if it is missing.
>>>>>
>>>>> apt-rdepends is at least partly redundant with apt.
>>>>> The command "apt-rdepends -r <package-name>", and "apt rdepends
>>>>> <package-name>" both show reverse dependencies of <package-name>;
>>>>> the latter also shows suggestions (packages that suggest <package
>>>>> name, I think).
>>>>> If you have apt installed, you probably do not need apt-rdepends.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Tom Dial
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Tom Dial
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If all else fails, you can then share it with the list and
>>>>>>>>>>> say "I got to
>>>>>>>>>>> step X with no problems, then Y happened - help me out here"
>>>>>>>>>>> and we'll
>>>>>>>>>>> have some better idea. We all jib at you for being vague/not
>>>>>>>>>>> indluding
>>>>>>>>>>> details but otherwise it is all just guesswork for the usual
>>>>>>>>>>> folk that
>>>>>>>>>>> hang out here.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> All the very best, as ever,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Andy Cater
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How much longer till trixie is officially out?? What you are
>>>>>>>>>> proposing sounds like several days work, and i have other
>>>>>>>>>> irons in the fire. This release has been such a disaster for
>>>>>>>>>> me because the install insists on installing and configuring
>>>>>>>>>> orca and brltty w/o asking. I've done 40 some installs now,
>>>>>>>>>> trying to stop it from wasting about a second while its
>>>>>>>>>> yelling every keystroke at me because it thinks I'm blind. I
>>>>>>>>>> finally have orca disabled and the computer is useful. The
>>>>>>>>>> delays are a pain in the a$$ but i can do work now. It is not
>>>>>>>>>> useful when orca is using 90% of a 6 core I5 yelling at me
>>>>>>>>>> loud enough to announce and pronounce every keystroke or mouse
>>>>>>>>>> motion/click loud enough to wake the neighbors. The first 23
>>>>>>>>>> installs never asked me if I wanted that crap. And if you
>>>>>>>>>> nuked the orca executable it would not reboot but hung forever
>>>>>>>>>> waiting for orca to start. I have it usable, the installer
>>>>>>>>>> AFAIAC is broken and I don't want to have to go through all
>>>>>>>>>> that again. Until the installer ASKS me if I want it because
>>>>>>>>>> it thinks I am blind, I have only one nerve left and and the
>>>>>>>>>> suggestion that I do yet another install, is standing on it.
>>>>>>>>>> Trying to remove it now, it insists on removing gnome and
>>>>>>>>>> every dependency. I just checked again with synaptic, removing
>>>>>>>>>> either orca or brltty still wants to destroy the system, Yet
>>>>>>>>>> all I get when I fuss about the broken installer is "won't
>>>>>>>>>> fix, not broken'.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Gene,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I, too, am not in need of the services that brltty or orca
>>>>>>>>> provide, and have noticed them hanging about from time to time,
>>>>>>>>> although I have not encountered any difficulties like you
>>>>>>>>> describe.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On a bullseye system, apt-rdepends -r brltty informs me:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> # apt-rdepends -r brltty
>>>>>>>>> Reading package lists... Done
>>>>>>>>> Building dependency tree... Done
>>>>>>>>> Reading state information... Done
>>>>>>>>> brltty
>>>>>>>>> Reverse Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>> Reverse Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>> Reverse Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>> Reverse Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>> brltty-espeak
>>>>>>>>> brltty-flite
>>>>>>>>> brltty-speechd
>>>>>>>>> brltty-x11
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If I understand apt-rdepends correctly, you should be able to
>>>>>>>>> remove/purge brltty ("apt purge brltty") without removing any
>>>>>>>>> installed packages other than the four listed above.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> apt-rdepends -r orca tells me:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> # apt-rdepends -r orca
>>>>>>>>> Reading package lists... Done
>>>>>>>>> Building dependency tree... Done
>>>>>>>>> Reading state information... Done
>>>>>>>>> orca
>>>>>>>>> Reverse Depends: gnome (>= 1:3.38+3)
>>>>>>>>> Reverse Depends: gnome-orca (3.38.2-2)
>>>>>>>>> Reverse Depends: orca-sops (1.0.2-2)
>>>>>>>>> gnome
>>>>>>>>> gnome-orca
>>>>>>>>> orca-sops
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So removing orca would also take gnome, and that probably is
>>>>>>>>> unacceptable to you. Accordingly, you need to tame orca to find
>>>>>>>>> the process that causes it to run and persuade it not to do that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I found, on a bookworm install (I have no bullseye with gnome
>>>>>>>>> and orca), that running orca -s from a terminal will bring up a
>>>>>>>>> settings panel with a check box for "Enable speech" under the
>>>>>>>>> "Speech" tab. Unchecking that box and selecting the "Apply"
>>>>>>>>> button will silence Orca. I think that leaves some of its
>>>>>>>>> subtasks running, as children of the systemd --user task; I am
>>>>>>>>> far from expert here. They do not seem to use significant
>>>>>>>>> resources, however.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Alternatively, you can find orca's process, for instance, with
>>>>>>>>> "ps -ef | grep orca", and kill it. The -HUP signal is enough.
>>>>>>>>> Or you can kill its parent process (third column in the ps -ef
>>>>>>>>> output) if it is not a necessary one, or maybe teach it how to
>>>>>>>>> not start orca in the first place,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I hope this is useful. Things like this can be very annoying.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Tom Dial
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you Tom
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
>>>> In experimenting I've found a name clash, there are appprently two
>>>> orca's. one is a speech synth, one is a slicer for 3d printers I
>>>> don't use. Typing orca in a shell locks the shell wo any output, for
>>>> several minutes but comes back to a prompt with a ctl-c, so I've NDC
>>>> which was being executed. Whatevver, the installation is quite
>>>> voluminous:
>>>> gene@coyote:~/AppImages$ locate orca |wc -l
>>>> 1560
>>>
>>> The output of "which orca" would have told you the path to the orca
>>> program you ran. The orca program (Python script) that Debian
>>> installs with gnome is /usr/bin/orca.
>>>
>>> With the orca that Debian installs along with gnome, typing "orca" in
>>> a command line and hitting the <Enter> key starts orca in its working
>>> mode. To get the GUI settings panel, you have to use "orca -s". See
>>> the orca man page for setup details.
>>>
>>> orca's normal run mode is in the background with no screen presence
>>>>
>>>> So I took orca out, which took gnome out. But now gnomes
>>>> dependencies will put orca back in. So now I can't run autoremove.
>>>> So one more time this broken damned bookworm install has bit me in a
>>>> rear.
>>>
>>> It appears you had more than one orca, different programs and for
>>> different, unrelated purposes. Debian installed only one of them. The
>>> other, hinted by the directory in which you ran the locate command,
>>> presumably was installed by you, and may be part of an AppImage. Or
>>> maybe it is the same orca, but installed with an appimage. I don't
>>> use AppImage packages knowingly, and only use non-distribution
>>> packages very sparingly, so have little to contribute on that subject.
>>
>> I OTOH, have found AppImages a good way to get uptodate, and keep
>> uptodate, packages like OpenSCAD, FreeCAD and the miriad 3d slicers,
>> most of which do a new AppImage in the first week of the month. So the
>> OpenSCAD I'm running is nearly 4 years newer than the repo version,
>> and probably 20x faster.
>
>>>
>>> You stated above that the "other" - non-Debian - orca was for 3D
>>> printers you don't use. That suggests you could remove it without
>>> interfering with anything.
>>
>> It was an AppImage, rm-able.ff>
>>> But you removed orca - the Debian-installed one - and just as apt (or
>>> apt-get) said when you did it, it removed gnome. And the result was
>>> unsatisfactory, as I said it probably would be in an earlier message
>>> on this thread.
>>>
>>> The obvious solution is remove the other - non-Debian - Orca, note
>>> uppercase with whatever tools are appropriate to that. Then reinstall
>>> gnome. As you said, that will reinstall orca as a dependency. But
>>> once it is done, you can tune orca - the Debian one - to be less
>>> obtrusive, or even silent, in the way I described earlier.
>
>>
>>>
>>> If, for reasons, you can't remove the non-Debian orca, it might not
>>> even matter, since it silencing the Debian one is pretty easy
>>
>> That I did not find easy. Disabling it also removes the ability to
>> reboot as the boot hangs forever waiting for orca to start, quite
>> early in the boot. That little detail is responsible for the first 23
>> re-installs.
>
> I don't oppose appimage use, except on a sort of vague esthetic basis or
> misplaced/unnecessary concern with resource use "efficiency." They
> certainly have valid use cases.
>
> At this point, I have no idea about the state of your system, so recommend:
>
> Restore the system to the point where it has the software installed that
> you want, plus gnome, plus the orca that came with gnome. Make sure
> brltty is gone, since you don't want it.
>
> apt purge brltty --yes
>
> Reboot.
>
> (Probably unnecessary, but it won't hurt and will ensure the system is
> in a fairly normal state).
>
> Log on to your account and disable orca speech:
>
> orca -s &
>
> In 5 - 10 seconds, the "Screen Reader Preferences" panel should be
> displayed, with 8 tabs under the title. Left-click the "Speech" tab and
> make sure the "Enable speech" box is unchecked. Then left-click the
> "Apply" button at the bottom of the panel, and after that the "OK"
> button. The preferences panel will close in a few seconds.
>
> Orca should no longer read screens. And the change should be persistent
> across logins and reboots: the settings are saved in your
> ~/.local/share/orca/ for later.
orca is gone, as is gnome. Apt and synaptic refuse to re-install gnome
w/o dragging in orca too. Good night, whats left of it, Tom.
>
> You also could take care of orca for the current session by
>
> killall orca
>
> but it would not be persistent across logins.
>
> Also see
> https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
>
> https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/commands_speech_settings.html.en
>
> On your system:
> man orca
> /usr/share/doc/orca/README
>
> I won't say it's the best documentation I have seen, but it is
> documentation, and better than some.
>
>
> Regards,
> Tom
>> .
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Tom Dial
>>
>> Thanks Tom.
>>
>> No Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-04 12:30 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2024-06-04 20:20 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-06-05 04:50 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2024-06-05 08:40 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2024-06-05 12:10 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-05 17:00 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-05 17:20 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-05 17:50 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-05 18:10 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Anssi Saari <anssi.saari@debian-user.mail.kapsi.fi> - 2024-06-06 11:50 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2024-06-05 23:50 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-06 04:00 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2024-06-07 00:00 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-07 06:30 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-07 07:20 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-07 13:20 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-07 14:10 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-07 14:10 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-07 13:40 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-07 23:30 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-06-08 00:20 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-08 01:20 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2024-06-08 03:00 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-08 07:50 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-06-08 09:30 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-08 21:20 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-06-09 00:10 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-09 08:10 +0200
Snaps and Co [was: about 10th new install of bullseye] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-06-09 07:00 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2024-06-09 01:30 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-09 08:20 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2024-06-09 14:00 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-09 15:00 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-09 16:20 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2024-06-09 22:10 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye BUT its not Bullseye, its bookworm! gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-05 17:30 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bookworm! Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2024-06-06 00:50 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bookworm! gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-06 04:10 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bookworm! Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2024-06-06 04:30 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye BUT its not Bullseye, its bookworm! David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-06-06 03:00 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2024-06-05 19:20 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-05 23:10 +0200
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