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Groups > linux.debian.user > #269991
| From | gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | linux.debian.user |
| Subject | Re: about 10th new install of bullseye |
| Date | 2024-06-08 07:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <IMX7H-1pPF-1@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink) |
| References | (3 earlier) <IM6G5-TnL-17@gated-at.bofh.it> <IMaA1-VGK-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <IMtjj-17aP-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <IMAb7-1bO3-3@gated-at.bofh.it> <IMSB3-1mYh-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| Organization | linux.* mail to news gateway |
On 6/7/24 20:38, Tom Dial wrote:
>
>
> On 6/6/24 23:14, gene heskett wrote:
>> On 6/6/24 19:00, Tom Dial wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/5/24 19:53, gene heskett wrote:
>>>> On 6/5/24 17:25, Tom Dial wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 6/5/24 08:58, gene heskett wrote:
>>>>>> On 6/5/24 02:05, Tom Dial wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 6/4/24 04:26, gene heskett wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2/19/22 06:31, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi Gene,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If this was someone calling you from a TV station saying they
>>>>>>>>> had a TV
>>>>>>>>> transmitter that was varying in power output - you'd have a
>>>>>>>>> mental checklist.
>>>>>>>>> You'd get down there, perhaps schedule some sort of power down
>>>>>>>>> / reduced
>>>>>>>>> power operation and then you'd check - power supplies, feeder
>>>>>>>>> cables, hot
>>>>>>>>> spots on cables - whatever. Divide and conquer- working back to
>>>>>>>>> a baseline
>>>>>>>>> of known working conditions and eliminating causes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My suggestion to you of a reinstall is partly designed to get
>>>>>>>>> you out of this
>>>>>>>>> "X happens, I did Y, now I've got Z" - to get to a known
>>>>>>>>> initial state.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Take out all the serial converters to UPS, lathe and so on.
>>>>>>>>> Wireless keyboard
>>>>>>>>> doesn't present as serial in the same way that brltty does - if
>>>>>>>>> it did, I'd
>>>>>>>>> have brltty with every install on this laptop.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Copy off your home directory as you did before - maybe using
>>>>>>>>> tar.gz and preserving permissions. Start with the .iso that
>>>>>>>>> includes firmware - the unofficial one.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Build back slowly - do an expert text mode install if you can.
>>>>>>>>> Then add your
>>>>>>>>> Trinity desktop - I don't think any of us can help you there,
>>>>>>>>> since we don't
>>>>>>>>> run trinity.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Check and you should find that brltty isn't installed at all.
>>>>>>>>> Then re-add thingsgradually until you have the working system
>>>>>>>>> you want. Document it - write down
>>>>>>>>> the steps you take / copy configuration files you change.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That will also reveal logging / login slowdowns or whatever
>>>>>>>>> caused by
>>>>>>>>> individual devices as you add them back. Keep a list as you go.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That's the counsel of perfection: alternatively:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> apt rdepends brltty gives me:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> me@mymachine:~$ apt rdepends brltty
>>>>>>>>> brltty
>>>>>>>>> Reverse Depends:
>>>>>>>>> Suggests: speechd-el (>= 3.7.2)
>>>>>>>>> Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>> Suggests: orca
>>>>>>>>> Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>> Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>> Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You could try apt-get remove (or equivalent) on each of those
>>>>>>>>> packages and
>>>>>>>>> see if that clears it. I _know_ this is frustrating as all get
>>>>>>>>> out for you
>>>>>>>>> but a clear approach, written down so that you can remember
>>>>>>>>> where you got
>>>>>>>>> to will be very helpful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any attempt to remove cura or brltty, removes gnome leaving me I
>>>>>> assume with a text only system by the time gnome takes all its
>>>>>> dependency's with it. Thanks Tom.
>>>>>
>>>>> Have you actually tried uninstalling brltty only, as a separate
>>>>> action from all others?
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a number of gnome installations, unfortunately for this
>>>>> discussion all bookworm. None of them has brltty.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a few installations of bullseye and an older stretch
>>>>> installation, but none with gnome installed. On all of them,
>>>>> though, "apt-rdepends -r gnome" fails to list brltty as a gnome
>>>>> dependency. And on the bookworm systems, simulated installation of
>>>>> gnome ("apt install -s gnome") shows brltty as a suggested package
>>>>> only and would not install it along with gnome; on the stretch
>>>>> system, gnome installation makes no reference at all to brltty.
>>>>>
>>>> While I have both with only the radio buttons for keyboard and
>>>> rodent plugged into usb at install time. I have only one wired
>>>> keyboard and no wired mice as I've had a lightning strike on the
>>>> pole that serves this house reach up and tap me by way of my fingers
>>>> on the keyboard. Wasn't that much of a tap, I've been tapped a lot
>>>> harder that that, hard enough to trigger a 6 month round of shingles
>>>> and the burns were months healing. And in this case did not damage
>>>> the keyboard or computer, but I did get the message. I've had many
>>>> strikes on that pole since I built a garage on the end of the house,
>>>> which caused me to install a 200 amp service and bring my grounding
>>>> specs up to NEC. Zero problems since then (2008)
>>>>
>>>>> Is it possible you have apt settings that automatically pull in
>>>>> suggested packages, and that is interfering with attempts to remove
>>>>> brltty? I am not expert enough wrt apt and its relatives to know
>>>>> whether that even makes sense, and it seems a bit far fetched if
>>>>> maybe barely possible.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe if you post the output from "apt-rdepends -r brltty" and "apt
>>>>> purge --simulate brltty" it will be informative.
>>>>
>>>> Neither of those utils are installed. Should they be?
>>>
>>> apt should be installed. As far as I know it has been included by
>>> default in the Debian base system as the preferred command line
>>> package management program since buster or earlier. I have never had
>>> to install it. You probably should if it is missing.
>>>
>>> apt-rdepends is at least partly redundant with apt.
>>> The command "apt-rdepends -r <package-name>", and "apt rdepends
>>> <package-name>" both show reverse dependencies of <package-name>; the
>>> latter also shows suggestions (packages that suggest <package name, I
>>> think).
>>> If you have apt installed, you probably do not need apt-rdepends.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Tom Dial
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Tom Dial
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If all else fails, you can then share it with the list and say
>>>>>>>>> "I got to
>>>>>>>>> step X with no problems, then Y happened - help me out here"
>>>>>>>>> and we'll
>>>>>>>>> have some better idea. We all jib at you for being vague/not
>>>>>>>>> indluding
>>>>>>>>> details but otherwise it is all just guesswork for the usual
>>>>>>>>> folk that
>>>>>>>>> hang out here.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> All the very best, as ever,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Andy Cater
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How much longer till trixie is officially out?? What you are
>>>>>>>> proposing sounds like several days work, and i have other irons
>>>>>>>> in the fire. This release has been such a disaster for me
>>>>>>>> because the install insists on installing and configuring orca
>>>>>>>> and brltty w/o asking. I've done 40 some installs now, trying to
>>>>>>>> stop it from wasting about a second while its yelling every
>>>>>>>> keystroke at me because it thinks I'm blind. I finally have orca
>>>>>>>> disabled and the computer is useful. The delays are a pain in
>>>>>>>> the a$$ but i can do work now. It is not useful when orca is
>>>>>>>> using 90% of a 6 core I5 yelling at me loud enough to announce
>>>>>>>> and pronounce every keystroke or mouse motion/click loud enough
>>>>>>>> to wake the neighbors. The first 23 installs never asked me if
>>>>>>>> I wanted that crap. And if you nuked the orca executable it
>>>>>>>> would not reboot but hung forever waiting for orca to start. I
>>>>>>>> have it usable, the installer AFAIAC is broken and I don't want
>>>>>>>> to have to go through all that again. Until the installer ASKS
>>>>>>>> me if I want it because it thinks I am blind, I have only one
>>>>>>>> nerve left and and the suggestion that I do yet another install,
>>>>>>>> is standing on it. Trying to remove it now, it insists on
>>>>>>>> removing gnome and every dependency. I just checked again with
>>>>>>>> synaptic, removing either orca or brltty still wants to destroy
>>>>>>>> the system, Yet all I get when I fuss about the broken installer
>>>>>>>> is "won't fix, not broken'.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Gene,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I, too, am not in need of the services that brltty or orca
>>>>>>> provide, and have noticed them hanging about from time to time,
>>>>>>> although I have not encountered any difficulties like you describe.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On a bullseye system, apt-rdepends -r brltty informs me:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> # apt-rdepends -r brltty
>>>>>>> Reading package lists... Done
>>>>>>> Building dependency tree... Done
>>>>>>> Reading state information... Done
>>>>>>> brltty
>>>>>>> Reverse Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>> Reverse Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>> Reverse Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>> Reverse Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>> brltty-espeak
>>>>>>> brltty-flite
>>>>>>> brltty-speechd
>>>>>>> brltty-x11
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If I understand apt-rdepends correctly, you should be able to
>>>>>>> remove/purge brltty ("apt purge brltty") without removing any
>>>>>>> installed packages other than the four listed above.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> apt-rdepends -r orca tells me:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> # apt-rdepends -r orca
>>>>>>> Reading package lists... Done
>>>>>>> Building dependency tree... Done
>>>>>>> Reading state information... Done
>>>>>>> orca
>>>>>>> Reverse Depends: gnome (>= 1:3.38+3)
>>>>>>> Reverse Depends: gnome-orca (3.38.2-2)
>>>>>>> Reverse Depends: orca-sops (1.0.2-2)
>>>>>>> gnome
>>>>>>> gnome-orca
>>>>>>> orca-sops
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So removing orca would also take gnome, and that probably is
>>>>>>> unacceptable to you. Accordingly, you need to tame orca to find
>>>>>>> the process that causes it to run and persuade it not to do that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I found, on a bookworm install (I have no bullseye with gnome and
>>>>>>> orca), that running orca -s from a terminal will bring up a
>>>>>>> settings panel with a check box for "Enable speech" under the
>>>>>>> "Speech" tab. Unchecking that box and selecting the "Apply"
>>>>>>> button will silence Orca. I think that leaves some of its
>>>>>>> subtasks running, as children of the systemd --user task; I am
>>>>>>> far from expert here. They do not seem to use significant
>>>>>>> resources, however.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Alternatively, you can find orca's process, for instance, with
>>>>>>> "ps -ef | grep orca", and kill it. The -HUP signal is enough. Or
>>>>>>> you can kill its parent process (third column in the ps -ef
>>>>>>> output) if it is not a necessary one, or maybe teach it how to
>>>>>>> not start orca in the first place,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I hope this is useful. Things like this can be very annoying.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Tom Dial
>>>>
>>>> Thank you Tom
>>>>
>>>> Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
>> In experimenting I've found a name clash, there are appprently two
>> orca's. one is a speech synth, one is a slicer for 3d printers I don't
>> use. Typing orca in a shell locks the shell wo any output, for several
>> minutes but comes back to a prompt with a ctl-c, so I've NDC which was
>> being executed. Whatevver, the installation is quite voluminous:
>> gene@coyote:~/AppImages$ locate orca |wc -l
>> 1560
>
> The output of "which orca" would have told you the path to the orca
> program you ran. The orca program (Python script) that Debian installs
> with gnome is /usr/bin/orca.
>
> With the orca that Debian installs along with gnome, typing "orca" in a
> command line and hitting the <Enter> key starts orca in its working
> mode. To get the GUI settings panel, you have to use "orca -s". See the
> orca man page for setup details.
>
> orca's normal run mode is in the background with no screen presence
>>
>> So I took orca out, which took gnome out. But now gnomes dependencies
>> will put orca back in. So now I can't run autoremove. So one more time
>> this broken damned bookworm install has bit me in a rear.
>
> It appears you had more than one orca, different programs and for
> different, unrelated purposes. Debian installed only one of them. The
> other, hinted by the directory in which you ran the locate command,
> presumably was installed by you, and may be part of an AppImage. Or
> maybe it is the same orca, but installed with an appimage. I don't use
> AppImage packages knowingly, and only use non-distribution packages very
> sparingly, so have little to contribute on that subject.
I OTOH, have found AppImages a good way to get uptodate, and keep
uptodate, packages like OpenSCAD, FreeCAD and the miriad 3d slicers,
most of which do a new AppImage in the first week of the month. So the
OpenSCAD I'm running is nearly 4 years newer than the repo version, and
probably 20x faster.
>
> You stated above that the "other" - non-Debian - orca was for 3D
> printers you don't use. That suggests you could remove it without
> interfering with anything.
It was an AppImage, rm-able.
> But you removed orca - the Debian-installed one - and just as apt (or
> apt-get) said when you did it, it removed gnome. And the result was
> unsatisfactory, as I said it probably would be in an earlier message on
> this thread.
>
> The obvious solution is remove the other - non-Debian - Orca, note uppercase with
> whatever tools are appropriate to that. Then reinstall gnome. As you
> said, that will reinstall orca as a dependency. But once it is done, you
> can tune orca - the Debian one - to be less obtrusive, or even silent,
> in the way I described earlier.
>
> If, for reasons, you can't remove the non-Debian orca, it might not even
> matter, since it silencing the Debian one is pretty easy
That I did not find easy. Disabling it also removes the ability to
reboot as the boot hangs forever waiting for orca to start, quite early
in the boot. That little detail is responsible for the first 23
re-installs.
.
>
> Regards,
> Tom Dial
Thanks Tom.
No Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-04 12:30 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2024-06-04 20:20 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-06-05 04:50 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2024-06-05 08:40 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2024-06-05 12:10 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-05 17:00 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-05 17:20 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-05 17:50 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-05 18:10 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Anssi Saari <anssi.saari@debian-user.mail.kapsi.fi> - 2024-06-06 11:50 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2024-06-05 23:50 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-06 04:00 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2024-06-07 00:00 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-07 06:30 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-07 07:20 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-07 13:20 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-07 14:10 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-07 14:10 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-07 13:40 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-07 23:30 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-06-08 00:20 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-08 01:20 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2024-06-08 03:00 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-08 07:50 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-06-08 09:30 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-08 21:20 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-06-09 00:10 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-09 08:10 +0200
Snaps and Co [was: about 10th new install of bullseye] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-06-09 07:00 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2024-06-09 01:30 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-09 08:20 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2024-06-09 14:00 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-09 15:00 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-09 16:20 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2024-06-09 22:10 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye BUT its not Bullseye, its bookworm! gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-05 17:30 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bookworm! Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2024-06-06 00:50 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bookworm! gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-06 04:10 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bookworm! Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2024-06-06 04:30 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye BUT its not Bullseye, its bookworm! David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-06-06 03:00 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2024-06-05 19:20 +0200
Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-05 23:10 +0200
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