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Re: Advantages of C

From Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: Advantages of C
Date 2016-07-19 02:29 +0100
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <87bn1ufm9g.fsf@bsb.me.uk> (permalink)
References (3 earlier) <nmj019$il7$2@dont-email.me> <87twfmhdsw.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <nmjgd5$ein$1@dont-email.me> <878twyh4gc.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <nmjsd4$uii$1@dont-email.me>

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Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> writes:

> On 19/07/16 01:11, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> writes:
>>
>>> On 18/07/16 21:49, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>> Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 18/07/16 16:58, jacobnavia wrote:
>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Obviously too, a group that discusses C is full of people that tell
>>>>>> people here that C is doomed, nobody should really develop anything
>>>>>> important in C, since the C++ language fills all needs that you could
>>>>>> ever have.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think you overstate the case. There are at least two (and quite
>>>>> possibly more than two) people in this group for whom C is their
>>>>> development language of choice: you, and me.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure what than means.  Surely even for the most enthusiastic C
>>>> programmer it would depend on what you are doing?
>>>
>>> Of course. But the key word is "choice". When all else is equal, and
>>> all other factors have been taken into account, and you have
>>> eliminated unsuitable languages, and so you have a free choice among
>>> the survivors - if C is in the list of survivors, is that the language
>>> you choose? If so, then that's your language of choice (because,
>>> /given/ the choice, that's what you choose).
>>
>> But that does not help me understand.  You've replaced choice by "all
>> else is equal" in one place and "is not unsuitable" in another.
>
> Sorry. Let me try to be clear (or, at least, clearer!). But I really,
> really want to avoid specifics, because they'll just be grounds for
> arguments that are likely to end up being fruitless.
>
> Let's say you have a task X, and you have at your disposal the ten
> languages A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J. (Perhaps you had more, but you
> have already eliminated some, for any of various criteria that you've
> already applied to the list. These ten are the survivors.)
>
> One of the final criteria is, say, that the language must be available
> for the target platform. It happens that A and G are not available on
> the target platform. So your choice is reduced to B, C, D, E, F, H, I,
> J.
>
> And the very last criterion is that, since the task X is likely to be
> particularly CPU-intensive, the language has to be fast enough to
> cope, and a few carefully-written test programs reveal that (your
> implementations of) D, F, and H are not going to be fast enough. That
> leaves B, C, E, I, J.
>
> And now *all* objective criteria have been met, and these five are
> left, and the only criterion that remains is "personal preference". We
> will further assume that, by some miracle, these happen to be your
> five favourite languages (and that C is, by a happy chance, the C
> programming language). This is what I meant by "all else being equal"
> - we've eliminated the choices that are a poor fit for task X, for any
> of a number of reasons.

I don't recall being in that position with hard, binary, criteria to
reject a language often enough (ever?) to really know what I'd do.  If
I'm on my own, the notion of, say, portability might be very woolly.  C
is on these targets, but do I really need them all?  Maybe, maybe not.
If part of a team, the decision of often made for social reasons -- does
everyone know C?  Yes, so C it is!

> When you have no other grounds for selecting a language (because
> you've already applied all relevant criteria and eliminated those that
> do not meet those criteria), the one you choose from among the
> survivors is your language of choice. If you choose C, then C is your
> language of choice.

I have to imagine this situation because I don't recall ever being able
to rule out languages objectively whilst still having a free choice over
what's left.  But if I try to imagine it, I find that C is *not* my
language of choice.  I'd almost certainly use the one that I'd feel was
more fun -- often one I don't know well, but find interesting.

<snip>
-- 
Ben.

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Thread

Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-18 17:02 +0200
  Re: Advantages of C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-18 16:16 +0100
    Re: Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-18 19:13 +0200
    Re: Advantages of C Udyant Wig <udyant.wig@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 23:56 +0530
  Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-18 08:17 -0700
    Re: Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-18 17:38 +0200
  Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-18 16:48 +0100
    Re: Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-18 17:58 +0200
      Re: Advantages of C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-18 17:27 +0100
        Re: Advantages of C Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-07-18 15:19 -0400
        Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-18 21:49 +0100
          Re: Advantages of C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-18 22:06 +0100
            Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-19 01:11 +0100
              Re: Advantages of C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-19 01:31 +0100
                Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-19 02:29 +0100
                Re: Advantages of C Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-07-18 21:58 -0400
          Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-18 16:30 -0700
            Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-19 02:06 +0100
              Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-18 19:39 -0700
                Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-19 15:29 +0100
                Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-19 07:39 -0700
                Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-19 17:19 +0100
        Re: Advantages of C luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 21:16 -0700
      Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-18 22:47 +0100
        Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-18 16:48 -0700
      Re: Advantages of C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-07-19 10:21 +1200
        Re: Advantages of C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-07-23 19:43 +0000
    Re: Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-18 18:05 +0200
      Re: Advantages of C Jean-Marc Bourguet <jm@bourguet.org> - 2016-07-18 21:45 +0200
        Re: Advantages of C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-18 21:16 +0100
          Re: Advantages of C Udyant Wig <udyant.wig@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 11:00 +0530
            Re: Advantages of C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-19 11:00 +0100
              Re: Advantages of C Udyant Wig <udyant.wig@gmail.com> - 2016-07-20 10:08 +0530
        Re: Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-18 23:32 +0200
          Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-18 16:54 -0700
            Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-19 01:54 +0100
              Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-18 20:02 -0700
                Re: Advantages of C Udyant Wig <udyant.wig@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 11:26 +0530
                Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-19 01:43 -0700
                Re: Advantages of C Udyant Wig <udyant.wig@gmail.com> - 2016-07-20 10:33 +0530
                Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-20 01:07 -0700
                Re: Advantages of C Udyant Wig <udyant.wig@gmail.com> - 2016-07-21 12:53 +0530
                Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-19 15:33 +0100
                Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-19 08:04 -0700
                Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-19 17:35 +0100
              Re: Advantages of C Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 19:21 +0100
          Re: Advantages of C Jean-Marc Bourguet <jm@bourguet.org> - 2016-07-20 12:05 +0200
        Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-18 16:51 -0700
          Re: Advantages of C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-07-23 09:24 +0000
            Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-23 02:33 -0700
      Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-18 22:36 +0100
        Re: Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-19 00:00 +0200
          Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-19 01:46 +0100
          Re: Advantages of C Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-07-20 19:49 +0100
            Re: Advantages of C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-20 12:02 -0700
              Re: Advantages of C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-07-20 12:32 -0700
                Re: Advantages of C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-20 13:18 -0700
              Re: Advantages of C Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-07-20 20:37 +0100
            Re: Advantages of C jadill33@gmail.com - 2016-07-20 13:06 -0700
            Re: Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-20 23:07 +0200
              Re: Advantages of C jadill33@gmail.com - 2016-07-21 09:48 -0700
                Re: Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-22 10:14 +0200
                Re: Advantages of C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-07-22 20:25 +1200
                Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-22 02:17 -0700
                Re: Advantages of C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-07-22 23:56 +1200
                Re: Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-22 11:28 +0200
                Re: Advantages of C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-07-22 23:49 +1200
                Re: Advantages of C jadill33@gmail.com - 2016-07-22 06:46 -0700
        Re: Advantages of C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-18 23:13 +0100
          Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-19 01:45 +0100
    Re: Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-18 19:18 +0200
      Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-18 22:47 +0100
        Re: Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-19 00:07 +0200
          Re: Advantages of C Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-07-19 00:18 +0200
            Re: Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-19 01:36 +0200
          Re: Advantages of C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-07-19 10:28 +1200
            Re: Advantages of C Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-07-18 20:34 -0400
          Re: Advantages of C Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-07-18 20:33 -0400
            Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-18 19:30 -0700
        Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-18 17:01 -0700
  Re: Advantages of C Udyant Wig <udyant.wig@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 23:51 +0530
    Re: Advantages of C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-07-20 09:01 -0700

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