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Re: Advantages of C

From Udyant Wig <udyant.wig@gmail.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: Advantages of C
Date 2016-07-18 23:51 +0530
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <nmj6nu$bsn$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References <nmir1h$t2$1@dont-email.me>

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On 07/18/2016 08:32 PM, jacobnavia wrote:
> This continues the discussion I proposed in my previous message "High
> level C".
> 
> The essential part of that message was this:
> 
> C doesn't impose a particular view of your data. That doesn't at all
> imply that you can't use data structures like flexible arrays, lists,
> hash tables, whatever. But there is no further assumptions or concepts
> behind those C constructs. Actually, as language mechanisms go, all
> those containers are written in C89.

  Can these containers not be written as per other language standards
  such as C99 and C11?

> And that is the advantage: you do not have to fit your data into some
> complicated language construct: the complex data structures are just
> that: complex data structures, with no further categorization into
> "maps" or other stuff. A list of files is just that: a list of files.

  A list of files is a list of files anywhere.

  It is hard to have maps and folds and closures in C.  These are
  usually said to be at a higher level than what C deals with.  This is
  no slight: C was designed to operate at a particular level between man
  and machine.  Languages since C (and some long before it) have usually
  targeted levels above it.
  
> The advantage here ist the simplicity and economy of effort that C
> allows.
> 
> Apparently (besides the religious people) in this group there are many
> lisp heads. They say that lisp notation is better than the notation we
> learned at school. Actually most of the messages were about lisp in
> the replies I got. It was maybe my fault because I spoke about lambda
> calculus in a reply. And then, it went downwards.

  Leaving aside the misrepresentation about the Lisp notation, this was
  an exchange between Jacob Navia and Ben Bacarisse:

 On 07/16/2016 12:43 PM, jacobnavia wrote:
 > Le 16/07/2016 à 00:27, Ben Bacarisse a écrit :
 >> jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> writes:
 >> <snip>
 >>> .... Object oriented programming is no longer "en vogue" and the
 >>> fad went for templates, now lambdas, and tomorrow whatever computer
 >>> science students learn at the university, where those fads are
 >>> fabricated.
 >>
 >> Lambdas date from the 1930s.  There were amongst the very first
 >> concepts to be implemented in a programming language (in the 1950s).
 >> They are a very long-lived fad.
 > 
 > Lambda Calculus dates from 1930s. There was no lisp then.

  Jacob Navia made Lisp relevant to his discussion by trying to (and
  failing to) refute Ben Bacarisse, who did not even say that Lisp was
  there in the 1930s.
  
> It could be, it could be that for the needs of the machine, some other
> kind of notation is more adequate. But I would say that in that sense
> C has the advantage of being more readable by non lisp heads.

  Perhaps, it could also be that some people find the notation better to
  think in.  Then, you would not have to categorize people as "lisp
  heads" and non-"lisp heads."
  
> You can write lisp in C too of course, you can write anything in C:

  Really?  Can you have closures, generic functions, n-ary comparators,
  Lisp macros in C?  I would _love_ to know if you can.

> a+(b+4)/5
> 
> add(a,divide(add(b,4),5)));
> 
> with a suitable definition of the functions "add", "div", etc. C gives
> you the choice and lisp heads should be happy with it, since it
> accepts almost unmodified, their notation.
> 
> !!!!!!!!!!!

  The last line lit up my troll sensors, so I won't respond further.
  
-- 
Udyant Wig

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Thread

Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-18 17:02 +0200
  Re: Advantages of C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-18 16:16 +0100
    Re: Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-18 19:13 +0200
    Re: Advantages of C Udyant Wig <udyant.wig@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 23:56 +0530
  Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-18 08:17 -0700
    Re: Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-18 17:38 +0200
  Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-18 16:48 +0100
    Re: Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-18 17:58 +0200
      Re: Advantages of C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-18 17:27 +0100
        Re: Advantages of C Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-07-18 15:19 -0400
        Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-18 21:49 +0100
          Re: Advantages of C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-18 22:06 +0100
            Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-19 01:11 +0100
              Re: Advantages of C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-19 01:31 +0100
                Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-19 02:29 +0100
                Re: Advantages of C Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-07-18 21:58 -0400
          Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-18 16:30 -0700
            Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-19 02:06 +0100
              Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-18 19:39 -0700
                Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-19 15:29 +0100
                Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-19 07:39 -0700
                Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-19 17:19 +0100
        Re: Advantages of C luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 21:16 -0700
      Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-18 22:47 +0100
        Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-18 16:48 -0700
      Re: Advantages of C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-07-19 10:21 +1200
        Re: Advantages of C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-07-23 19:43 +0000
    Re: Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-18 18:05 +0200
      Re: Advantages of C Jean-Marc Bourguet <jm@bourguet.org> - 2016-07-18 21:45 +0200
        Re: Advantages of C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-18 21:16 +0100
          Re: Advantages of C Udyant Wig <udyant.wig@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 11:00 +0530
            Re: Advantages of C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-19 11:00 +0100
              Re: Advantages of C Udyant Wig <udyant.wig@gmail.com> - 2016-07-20 10:08 +0530
        Re: Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-18 23:32 +0200
          Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-18 16:54 -0700
            Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-19 01:54 +0100
              Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-18 20:02 -0700
                Re: Advantages of C Udyant Wig <udyant.wig@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 11:26 +0530
                Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-19 01:43 -0700
                Re: Advantages of C Udyant Wig <udyant.wig@gmail.com> - 2016-07-20 10:33 +0530
                Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-20 01:07 -0700
                Re: Advantages of C Udyant Wig <udyant.wig@gmail.com> - 2016-07-21 12:53 +0530
                Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-19 15:33 +0100
                Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-19 08:04 -0700
                Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-19 17:35 +0100
              Re: Advantages of C Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 19:21 +0100
          Re: Advantages of C Jean-Marc Bourguet <jm@bourguet.org> - 2016-07-20 12:05 +0200
        Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-18 16:51 -0700
          Re: Advantages of C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-07-23 09:24 +0000
            Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-23 02:33 -0700
      Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-18 22:36 +0100
        Re: Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-19 00:00 +0200
          Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-19 01:46 +0100
          Re: Advantages of C Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-07-20 19:49 +0100
            Re: Advantages of C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-20 12:02 -0700
              Re: Advantages of C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-07-20 12:32 -0700
                Re: Advantages of C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-20 13:18 -0700
              Re: Advantages of C Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-07-20 20:37 +0100
            Re: Advantages of C jadill33@gmail.com - 2016-07-20 13:06 -0700
            Re: Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-20 23:07 +0200
              Re: Advantages of C jadill33@gmail.com - 2016-07-21 09:48 -0700
                Re: Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-22 10:14 +0200
                Re: Advantages of C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-07-22 20:25 +1200
                Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-22 02:17 -0700
                Re: Advantages of C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-07-22 23:56 +1200
                Re: Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-22 11:28 +0200
                Re: Advantages of C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-07-22 23:49 +1200
                Re: Advantages of C jadill33@gmail.com - 2016-07-22 06:46 -0700
        Re: Advantages of C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-18 23:13 +0100
          Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-19 01:45 +0100
    Re: Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-18 19:18 +0200
      Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-18 22:47 +0100
        Re: Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-19 00:07 +0200
          Re: Advantages of C Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-07-19 00:18 +0200
            Re: Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-19 01:36 +0200
          Re: Advantages of C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-07-19 10:28 +1200
            Re: Advantages of C Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-07-18 20:34 -0400
          Re: Advantages of C Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-07-18 20:33 -0400
            Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-18 19:30 -0700
        Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-18 17:01 -0700
  Re: Advantages of C Udyant Wig <udyant.wig@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 23:51 +0530
    Re: Advantages of C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-07-20 09:01 -0700

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