Re: Null pointer constant

From	Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: Null pointer constant
Date	2017-06-19 22:10 +0100
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<878tknd6ow.fsf@bsb.me.uk> (permalink)
References	(5 earlier) <oi89cl$t3d$1@dont-email.me> <U5P1B.148289$GY6.107654@fx30.am4> <oi8geb$a5m$1@dont-email.me> <87shiwc4il.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <oi9cf4$q9s$1@dont-email.me>

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David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> writes:

> On 19/06/17 17:53, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> writes:
>>
>>> On 19/06/17 14:05, bartc wrote:
>>>> On 19/06/2017 11:38, David Brown wrote:
>>>>> On 19/06/17 11:11, bartc wrote:
>> <snip>
>>>>>> But given that the 0 in (a,b,0) appears to be a null-pointer-constant,
>>>>>> the machinations required within the rest of the standard to stop that
>>>>>> being used legally against pointer types is not at all clear.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is a big difference between (a, b, 0) and (a ? 0 : 0).
>>>>
>>>> (a,b,0) can't be an integer constant expression, even if a and b are
>>>> constants, because the language considers that nonsensical.
>>>
>>> True.  I suspect that is because the comma operator has a sequence
>>> point, and it would not make sense to have a sequence point in a
>>> constant expression.
>>
>> This is red-herring.  1 && 0 and 1 ? 0 : 0 are both constant expressions
>> and would have sequence points if there were ever evaluated at run-time.
>>
>>> (For what it is worth, I am not a fan of the comma operator, and I am
>>> not keen on sequence points inside an expression other than an
>>> assignment.)
>>
>> You are not keen on the short-cut semantics of && and ||?  I like them a
>> lot.
>
> Sometimes they can provide the best (clearest) way to write code, with idiomatic expressions like "if (p && *p)...".  But in general, no, I prefer code to have the same effect and validity if && and || had been "normal" operators without short-cut semantics.  If two bits of code must be executed in a particular order for the program to be correct, I prefer to write them as separate statements on separate lines.  However, I am not rigid about these rules, and will bend them if I think the result is clearer code.
>
>>
>>>> But I don't see why:
>>>>
>>>>    p = (a,b,0);
>>>>
>>>> can't be well-behaved. You evaluate a and b, then assign 0 to pointer p.
>>>> The language doesn't like it because implementing it is awkward (the
>>>> null-pointer-constant-ness of the terminal 0 doesn't propagate up in the
>>>> same way as the type of it would).
>>>
>>> No, the language does not like it because the sequence points spoil the
>>> special nature of the a pointer constant - there needs to be some rules
>>> to say when 0 is an int, and when it is a null pointer constant.
>>
>> Sequence points have nothing to do with it.  For one thing, a sequence
>> point is a run-time notion.  But consider 1 && 0.  It is a valid null
>> pointer constant despite the sequence point.
>
> Fair enough.
>
>>
>> Some syntactic forms are null pointer constants and some are not.  In
>> general, (a, b, 0) is not a null pointer constant because it is not an
>> integer constant expression but (1,2,0) is a null pointer constant.
>> Note that it would not be one without the ()s -- you need to check the
>> grammar to see why -- but I can't think of a way to check that compilers
>> get this right because all the obvious uses of comma expressions will
>> need ()s anyway.
>>
>> gcc complains about using (1,0) as a null pointer constant but I don't
>> see what grounds it has for doing that.
>>
>>> You can write:
>>>
>>> 	p = (a, b, (void*) 0);
>>>
>>> You can also write:
>>>
>>> 	p = (a, b, NULL);
>>>
>>> That is one of the purposes of having the NULL macro - it is /always/ a
>>> null pointer constant.
>>
>> That makes no difference at all: NULL may always be a null pointer
>> constant but then so is 0.  What matters is the rest of the expression.
>> (int *)NULL is not a null pointer constant and (1,NULL) may or may not
>> be depending on how NULL is defined.
>>
>> Your first example is now a valid assignment for other reasons, even if
>> a and b make the expression non-constant, and the second one will be
>> depending on how NULL is defined and the constant (or otherwise) nature
>> of a and b.
>>
>
> Thanks for the explanations here.  I hope Bart can follow it!

Except that I'm wrong!  Comma operators are explicitly excluded along
with assignments, ++, -- and function calls.  (I'd remembered the latter
ones but had forgotten about commas.)

However, the notion that sequence points don't matter is right and I
could have correctly illustrated it with a ? 0 : 0.  Also, my point
about adding NULL or (void *)0 is also right (I hope).  In other words

  1 ? (void *)0 : (void *)0

is not a null pointer constant but will work in your example for the
other reasons I alluded to -- it's an expression of type void * and can
be convert to other object types such as that of p above.

To test this, try

  void (*p)(void);
  p = (1 ? (void *)0 : (void *)0);

You should get a diagnostic (gcc gives one) because a void * can't be
implicitly converted to a function pointer.  Had

  (1 ? (void *)0 : (void *)0)

been a null pointer constant, no diagnostic would be required.

> My own knowledge here was enough for my own uses - if you never write
> "(a, b, 0)" then you don't need to know if it is a null pointer
> constant or not :-)

Just avoid any confusion: it isn't -- ever.  It can't even be a constant
expression.  I should have been more careful.

-- 
Ben.

Thread

Null pointer constant bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-06-18 17:15 +0100
  Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-18 11:20 -0700
  Re: Null pointer constant Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2017-06-18 19:23 +0100
    Re: Null pointer constant bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-06-18 20:57 +0100
      Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-18 13:38 -0700
        Re: Null pointer constant Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-06-19 04:35 -0700
          Re: Null pointer constant Nick Bowler <nbowler@draconx.ca> - 2017-06-19 18:08 +0000
            Re: Null pointer constant Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-06-19 21:05 -0700
          Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-19 12:12 -0700
            Re: Null pointer constant Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-06-19 21:08 -0700
      Re: Null pointer constant Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2017-06-19 00:34 +0100
        Re: Null pointer constant Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-06-19 04:45 -0700
          Re: Null pointer constant David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-19 13:55 +0200
        Re: Null pointer constant bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-06-19 13:16 +0100
          Re: Null pointer constant Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2017-06-19 16:58 +0100
  Re: Null pointer constant Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2017-06-18 20:58 +0000
    Re: Null pointer constant bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-06-19 00:11 +0100
      Re: Null pointer constant David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-19 03:21 +0200
        Re: Null pointer constant bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-06-19 10:11 +0100
          Re: Null pointer constant David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-19 12:38 +0200
            Re: Null pointer constant bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-06-19 13:05 +0100
              Re: Null pointer constant David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-19 14:39 +0200
                Re: Null pointer constant "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-06-19 11:06 -0400
                Re: Null pointer constant Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2017-06-19 15:51 +0000
                Re: Null pointer constant "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-06-19 12:22 -0400
                Re: Null pointer constant Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2017-06-19 17:29 +0000
                Re: Null pointer constant "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-06-19 13:45 -0400
                Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-19 12:31 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2017-06-19 15:10 +0000
                Re: Null pointer constant Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2017-06-19 16:53 +0100
                Re: Null pointer constant "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-06-19 13:06 -0400
                Re: Null pointer constant Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2017-06-19 20:03 +0100
                Re: Null pointer constant David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-19 22:37 +0200
                Re: Null pointer constant Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2017-06-19 22:10 +0100
                Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-19 14:25 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-06-19 22:46 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-20 08:43 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-06-20 09:17 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-06-21 00:56 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-21 10:07 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-06-21 23:52 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-22 10:12 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-06-22 17:33 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-06-23 08:54 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Manfred <invalid@invalid.add> - 2017-06-20 00:00 +0200
                Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-19 15:27 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-06-19 16:38 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2017-06-20 01:14 +0100
                Re: Null pointer constant Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2017-06-20 12:03 +0100
                Re: Null pointer constant Manfred <noname@invalid.add> - 2017-06-20 13:16 +0200
                Re: Null pointer constant jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2017-06-20 05:34 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-20 08:49 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2017-06-20 16:35 +0000
                Re: Null pointer constant "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-06-20 13:07 -0400
                Re: Null pointer constant Nick Bowler <nbowler@draconx.ca> - 2017-06-20 17:29 +0000
                Re: Null pointer constant "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-06-20 13:55 -0400
                Re: Null pointer constant Nick Bowler <nbowler@draconx.ca> - 2017-06-20 18:06 +0000
                Re: Null pointer constant "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-06-20 14:42 -0400
                Re: Null pointer constant Nick Bowler <nbowler@draconx.ca> - 2017-06-20 19:10 +0000
                Re: Null pointer constant Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2017-06-20 18:31 +0000
                Re: Null pointer constant Nick Bowler <nbowler@draconx.ca> - 2017-06-20 18:36 +0000
                Re: Null pointer constant "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-06-20 14:45 -0400
                Re: Null pointer constant Nick Bowler <nbowler@draconx.ca> - 2017-06-20 17:14 +0000
                Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-20 11:55 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Nick Bowler <nbowler@draconx.ca> - 2017-06-20 19:23 +0000
                Re: Null pointer constant "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-06-20 15:39 -0400
                Re: Null pointer constant scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2017-06-21 13:44 +0000
                Re: Null pointer constant scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2017-06-21 13:49 +0000
                Re: Null pointer constant Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-06-21 23:57 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2017-06-28 20:04 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-07-10 08:38 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-20 12:39 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-06-20 20:53 +0100
                Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-20 13:07 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Nick Bowler <nbowler@draconx.ca> - 2017-06-20 20:50 +0000
                Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-20 15:35 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-06-21 00:26 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-21 09:54 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-06-21 13:09 -0400
                Re: Null pointer constant Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-06-22 00:53 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-06-21 18:09 +0100
                Re: Null pointer constant Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-06-22 00:50 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-19 10:24 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-06-19 22:32 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-06-19 19:40 +0100
                Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-19 12:08 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-06-19 20:32 +0100
                Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-19 12:48 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2017-06-19 13:08 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Nick Bowler <nbowler@draconx.ca> - 2017-06-19 20:40 +0000
                Re: Null pointer constant bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-06-19 22:01 +0100
                Re: Null pointer constant supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-06-19 14:15 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2017-06-19 14:25 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2017-06-19 21:06 +0000
                Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-19 14:28 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2017-06-19 21:35 +0000
                Re: Null pointer constant supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-06-19 14:48 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2017-06-20 15:38 +0000
                Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-19 15:16 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-06-19 14:29 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-19 15:18 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-06-19 22:48 -0700
                Re: Null pointer constant bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-06-20 15:09 +0100
              Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-19 10:19 -0700
            Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-19 10:15 -0700
              Re: Null pointer constant David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-06-19 22:44 +0200
            Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-19 12:24 -0700
      Re: Null pointer constant Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2017-06-19 08:21 +0000
        Re: Null pointer constant bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-06-19 10:17 +0100
          Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-19 10:04 -0700
  Re: Null pointer constant Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-06-19 12:34 -0700

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