Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #405251

Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course

Newsgroups	sci.physics.relativity
Date	2017-01-12 05:06 -0800
References	(17 earlier) <edlnuqF2ojuU1@mid.individual.net> <84ddb5a1-5b5d-4620-9dbb-de6e69424255@googlegroups.com> <ednl22Fh7cvU1@mid.individual.net> <fd349bef-a97e-46a7-98f3-52cca93ef694@googlegroups.com> <edon34Fome3U1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID	<2f072a5f-5c63-4481-ab8a-e4580486f019@googlegroups.com> (permalink)
Subject	Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course
From	Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com>

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On Wednesday, January 11, 2017 at 11:47:03 PM UTC-7, Thomas Heger wrote:
>
> Am 12.01.2017 01:40, schrieb Gary Harnagel:
> >
> > So you never got to calculus in math?  How do you expect to even TALK
> > intelligently about physics?
> >
> >>>>>>>>> E = sqrt(p^2*c^2 + m^2*c^4)
> > >
> > > In my understanding there are two terms, which contain 'm' and that
> > > is zero.
> >
> > There's only ONE term that contains m.  Do you have double vision?
> 
> P= m* v

Yes and no.  p has the UNITS of kg*m/sec but actually, p = gamma*m*v, so
again we have 0/0 when m = 0 because when m is zero, ANY tiny, tiny
fluctuation in force, a random radio photon, will make its velocity c.

> so in momentum is another m hidden.
>
> You want to say, that light has momentum, even if it has no mass.

That's the conventional way to look at it.  The old way to look at it
(and I still wonder about it) is to say that light has "relativistic"
mass.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass%E2%80%93energy_equivalence#Relativistic_mass

> This should make you scratch your head, since momentum is depending on mass.
> 
> So how does light gets mass?

See above.  Also, energy has mass:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass%E2%80%93energy_equivalence#Practical_examples

"Raising the temperature of an object (increasing its heat energy) increases
its mass."

> Right: light 'materialises' upon impact.
> 
> And do we know about such an effect?
> 
> Sure: the photo-electric effect.

Actually, it happens when light heats up whatever it hits.  You DO realize
a hot cup of water weighs more than a cold cup of water, don't you?

> > > Now you say, that dividing zero by zero gives a different result then
> > > dividing one by zero.
> > >
> > > Sorry, but I cannot follow.
> >
> > So you never went beyond arithmetic in school?  Never studied calculus?
> 
> In Germany we have a certain system in the school-type called 
> 'Gymnasium'. This school is finished with an examination called 'Abitur'.
> 
> The system is called 'Reformierte Oberstufe' (reformed higher classes 
> stage).
> 
> In this you have to chose two 'Leistungskurse' (roughly: classes at 
> higher level of education).
> 
> These special classes are quite high in level, but little lower than 
> academic.
> 
> I had mathematics and chemistry.
> 
> I was actually quite good at both and won a (small) price in mathematics.
> 
> I have also a university degree as Engineer (Dipl. Ing.).

And you never heard of L'Hopital's rule?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27H%C3%B4pital%27s_rule

> >>>> Now you have told me, this would be the correct equation, while I have
> >>>> rejected your claim.
> >
> > You can reject that truth is truth, too.
> 
> The problem is: what actually is the truth?
> 
> This was a question of debate. So 'truth' is the final stage of 
> knowledge, not what you could base your argumentation on.

I was using an analogy.  It's not a good idea to reject something you don't
know anything about.

> > > > Why do you avoid E = sqrt(p^*c^2 + m^2*c^4)?  Are you just being OCD?
> > >
> > > We had that already.
> >
> > You had OCD?
> 
> Don't know what that is, but most likely an insult.

Oppositional Compulsive Disorder :-)

> > > My question was: how do you solve the problem with mass = zero ?
> >
> > We've been through that, but you're not smart at math.
> 
> Well, depends on your definition of 'smart'.
> 
> Somehow I'm a little out of training, but certainly smart enough.

Okay.

> > > You say, that light has momentum, but no mass.
> > >
> > > I wrote: no, photons and electrons are the same thing. This is what
> > > causes the photoelectric effect.
> > >
> > > And this is why light has momentum.
> > >
> >
> > And that's not smart, either.
> 
> Well, we were not searching for smartness, but for truth.

I was using "smart" as defined by "reality."  I see NO justification for
asserting that photons and electrons are the same thing.  First of all,
electrons have electrical charge and photons don't.  That flies in the
face of charge conservation.  Second, electrons have spin h/4pi, photons
have spin h/2pi.  That destroys conservation of spin.  Third, a lone
electron has NEVER been observed turning into a photon.

> It does not make much difference, if such wisdom is delivered by an 
> idiot or by a genius, thou smarter people are more likely among the 
> inventors.
> 
> TH

There's more than one way around the 0/0 problem.  One way is by L'Hopital's
rule:

"In mathematics, and more specifically in calculus, L'Hôpital's rule or
L'Hospital's rule (French: [lopital]) uses derivatives to help evaluate
limits involving indeterminate forms."

Thread

E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Pentcho Valev <pvalev@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-29 11:35 -0800
  Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Demetrice Barren <teercere@tmerunin.tme> - 2016-12-29 22:28 +0000
  Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2016-12-29 19:23 -0800
    Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2016-12-30 00:00 -0800
    Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Tiffany Wuest <eesio@esufsi.info> - 2016-12-30 10:00 +0000
      Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-12-30 22:19 +0100
        Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Tiffany Wuest <eesio@esufsi.info> - 2016-12-30 21:27 +0000
          Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2016-12-31 06:23 +0100
            Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2017-01-02 08:16 +0100
              Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-01-02 04:59 -0800
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2017-01-03 04:28 +0100
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-01-03 05:16 -0800
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2017-01-03 19:25 +0100
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-01-03 13:52 -0800
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course "David (Lord Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-01-03 14:02 -0800
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-01-03 19:05 -0800
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2017-01-04 07:26 +0100
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-01-04 15:11 -0800
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Kurt Getman <erttarnKmu@erttarnKmu.ert> - 2017-01-05 00:05 +0000
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-01-04 18:21 -0800
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Sharilyn Vore <inolr@nryowno.an> - 2017-01-09 21:22 +0000
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Kurt Getman <erttarnKmu@erttarnKmu.ert> - 2017-01-05 00:06 +0000
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2017-01-07 08:15 +0100
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-01-07 08:10 -0800
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2017-01-07 22:24 +0100
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Sharilyn Vore <inolr@nryowno.an> - 2017-01-07 21:52 +0000
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2017-01-08 07:21 +0100
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Sharilyn Vore <inolr@nryowno.an> - 2017-01-08 11:29 +0000
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Sharilyn Vore <inolr@nryowno.an> - 2017-01-08 11:30 +0000
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Sharilyn Vore <inolr@nryowno.an> - 2017-01-08 11:32 +0000
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-01-08 12:01 -0800
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2017-01-08 22:49 +0100
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-01-08 14:57 -0800
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2017-01-09 06:05 +0100
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-01-09 03:35 -0800
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2017-01-10 06:52 +0100
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-01-10 04:41 -0800
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2017-01-11 04:43 +0100
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-01-10 20:30 -0800
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2017-01-11 22:06 +0100
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-01-11 16:40 -0800
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2017-01-12 07:46 +0100
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-01-12 05:06 -0800
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2017-01-12 18:33 +0100
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Ward Nusbaum <uqowm@msdmmsuus.org> - 2017-01-12 19:38 +0000
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-01-12 14:09 -0800
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-01-13 09:38 +0100
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course "David (Lord Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-01-13 08:05 -0800
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2017-01-14 07:43 +0100
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-01-14 11:33 +0100
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2017-01-14 21:08 +0100
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2017-01-13 08:11 -0800
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Ward Nusbaum <uqowm@msdmmsuus.org> - 2017-01-13 18:58 +0000
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2017-01-13 20:51 +0100
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Reid Schaffner <dnfoonio@acdnfni.info> - 2017-01-14 17:17 +0000
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2017-01-14 20:58 +0100
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course alsor@interia.pl - 2017-01-14 12:31 -0800
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Reid Schaffner <dnfoonio@acdnfni.info> - 2017-01-14 20:43 +0000
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Reid Schaffner <dnfoonio@acdnfni.info> - 2017-01-14 20:47 +0000
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2017-01-14 22:32 +0100
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Reid Schaffner <dnfoonio@acdnfni.info> - 2017-01-15 19:21 +0000
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course alsor@interia.pl - 2017-01-15 12:11 -0800
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Reid Schaffner <dnfoonio@acdnfni.info> - 2017-01-15 20:22 +0000
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course alsor@interia.pl - 2017-01-15 14:13 -0800
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Reid Schaffner <dnfoonio@acdnfni.info> - 2017-01-15 22:54 +0000
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course alsor@interia.pl - 2017-01-15 15:31 -0800
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Reid Schaffner <dnfoonio@acdnfni.info> - 2017-01-15 23:58 +0000
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course alsor@interia.pl - 2017-01-15 16:27 -0800
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2017-01-16 06:57 +0100
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2017-01-12 07:57 +0100
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2017-01-12 08:04 +0100
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Helmut Wabnig <hwabnig@.- --- -.dotat> - 2017-01-12 09:21 +0100
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2017-01-12 18:20 +0100
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course alsor@interia.pl - 2017-01-12 09:41 -0800
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2017-01-12 19:58 +0100
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course "David (Lord Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-01-12 11:34 -0800
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2017-01-13 21:06 +0100
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-01-13 14:07 -0600
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course alsor@interia.pl - 2017-01-14 10:29 -0800
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-01-14 14:26 -0600
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-01-12 14:26 -0800
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Ward Nusbaum <uqowm@msdmmsuus.org> - 2017-01-12 23:42 +0000
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course alsor@interia.pl - 2017-01-12 15:48 -0800
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-01-12 16:27 -0800
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Ward Nusbaum <uqowm@msdmmsuus.org> - 2017-01-13 18:36 +0000
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2017-01-11 18:06 -0800
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2017-01-11 18:03 -0800
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course alsor@interia.pl - 2017-01-08 14:11 -0800
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-01-08 15:01 -0800
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course alsor@interia.pl - 2017-01-08 15:31 -0800
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-01-08 16:57 -0800
                Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course alsor@interia.pl - 2017-01-10 10:32 -0800
        Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Alan Folmsbee <omnilobe@gmail.com> - 2017-01-04 20:15 -0800
          Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2017-01-05 06:43 +0100
  E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Pentcho Valev <pvalev@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-30 12:57 -0800
  Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Eric Baird <erkdemon@gmail.com> - 2016-12-30 17:47 -0800
  Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course Helmut Wabnig <hwabnig@.- --- -.dotat> - 2017-01-04 22:52 +0100
  Re: E = mc^2 : Einstein was not the author of course alsor@interia.pl - 2017-01-05 09:26 -0800

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