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Groups > sci.electronics.design > #451353 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2017-03-11 11:53 -0800 |
| Last post | 2017-03-11 20:14 -0600 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 94 — 14 participants |
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Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-11 11:53 -0800
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-03-11 13:03 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-11 12:31 -0800
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-11 18:36 -0800
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-12 07:10 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-11 13:09 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-11 12:34 -0800
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-11 14:13 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-11 16:00 -0800
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-11 17:22 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-11 21:40 -0500
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-12 07:07 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-12 07:59 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-12 08:16 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-12 12:16 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-13 11:19 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-15 12:52 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-16 08:01 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-16 10:19 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-16 10:37 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-16 16:12 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-16 16:33 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-16 20:15 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-12 20:43 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-13 02:05 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-13 21:33 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-14 06:38 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-14 12:47 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-14 12:00 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-14 20:44 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-15 05:53 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-15 12:53 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility kevin93 <kevin@whitedigs.com> - 2017-03-15 15:11 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-15 16:34 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-15 20:38 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-16 08:03 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-16 20:36 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-17 16:54 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-17 22:35 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-18 07:42 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-18 10:47 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-03-14 05:12 +0000
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-14 12:48 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-13 11:20 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-12 20:39 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-03-13 16:53 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-13 17:13 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-14 08:06 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-12 20:36 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-13 11:54 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-11 13:27 -0800
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-11 16:02 -0800
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-11 16:33 -0800
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-12 07:14 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-12 11:38 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-13 15:49 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-14 06:40 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-14 07:59 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-14 12:51 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-14 11:57 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-14 14:01 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-14 14:21 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-14 16:59 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> - 2017-03-16 00:50 +1100
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-15 07:26 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-15 11:17 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-15 16:31 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-15 16:59 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-15 19:06 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> - 2017-03-16 23:26 +1100
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-16 10:12 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-14 20:47 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-14 20:47 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-16 08:06 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> - 2017-03-17 16:29 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-17 22:39 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 01:52 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-18 09:45 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 07:37 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-18 10:48 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 09:18 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-18 14:13 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 13:20 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-18 20:00 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 18:40 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-18 22:17 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> - 2017-03-19 12:14 -0400
) Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2017-03-12 01:12 -0500
Re: ) tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-12 03:51 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.really> - 2017-03-11 14:27 -0600
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-11 12:38 -0800
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> - 2017-03-12 23:57 +1100
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-12 07:17 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2017-03-11 20:14 -0600
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| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-11 11:53 -0800 |
| Subject | Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility |
| Message-ID | <eij2slFirdU1@mid.individual.net> |
Ok, not electronics but electrons flow here: I just disassembled a panel that was so throughly botched by a "licensed" electrician that major corrections are in order. Among many mistakes he didn't properly protect it from the elements, a breaker has rusted and the tap-off is loose. Needless to say, the usual ancient stuff. Question: Can I replace EQ-P breakers from ITE with these from Siemens? http://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-25-Amp-Double-Pole-Type-QP-Circuit-Breaker-Q225/100183751 One of the customer questions asks that and a guy answered yes but I am skeptical because there are a lot of incompatibilities in American breaker systems. For example, while the Cruise Hinds breakers I have (I think that's now Murray) look identical they do not fit. Almost but not quite, going only 90% of the way in and they are 1/20" too fat. Roughing in a whole new panel would be MAJOR structural rework. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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| From | Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-11 13:03 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <dql8cc1osl5j30pa0nfocv10mca9o5j589@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #451353 |
On Sat, 11 Mar 2017 11:53:07 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:
>Ok, not electronics but electrons flow here:
>
>I just disassembled a panel that was so throughly botched by a
>"licensed" electrician that major corrections are in order. Among many
>mistakes he didn't properly protect it from the elements, a breaker has
>rusted and the tap-off is loose.
[snip]
They don't have electrical inspectors in Californica? A breaker
without an enclosure?
Somewhere you can look up compatibility. I had the problem many years
ago when I needed to replace the pool breaker that had failed.
Somewhere on the web I found a guide.
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
Thinking outside the box... producing elegant solutions.
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| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-11 12:31 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <eij550F10r1U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #451354 |
On 2017-03-11 12:03, Jim Thompson wrote: > On Sat, 11 Mar 2017 11:53:07 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> > wrote: > >> Ok, not electronics but electrons flow here: >> >> I just disassembled a panel that was so throughly botched by a >> "licensed" electrician that major corrections are in order. Among many >> mistakes he didn't properly protect it from the elements, a breaker has >> rusted and the tap-off is loose. > > [snip] > > They don't have electrical inspectors in Californica? A breaker > without an enclosure? > Oh, it has an enclosure. Inspection ... phhhht ... I don't know how that ever passed. > Somewhere you can look up compatibility. I had the problem many years > ago when I needed to replace the pool breaker that had failed. > Somewhere on the web I found a guide. > I found them as well. However, even their own search site does not find the breakers that were in there: http://www.circuitbreakerservice.com/ITE-Siemens/ Problem is, manufacturers change the stuff a lot so new stuff may not fit a 30-40 year old panel. That sure was better in Europe, all standardized and you were independent of manufacturers. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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| From | tabbypurr@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-11 18:36 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <1a37d809-0431-4e04-ad2f-50dfc3adf1e5@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #451359 |
On Saturday, 11 March 2017 20:31:32 UTC, Joerg wrote: > On 2017-03-11 12:03, Jim Thompson wrote: > > On Sat, 11 Mar 2017 11:53:07 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> > > wrote: snip snip > >> I just disassembled a panel that was so throughly botched by a > >> "licensed" electrician that major corrections are in order. Among many > >> mistakes he didn't properly protect it from the elements, a breaker has > >> rusted and the tap-off is loose. > > Somewhere you can look up compatibility. I had the problem many years > > ago when I needed to replace the pool breaker that had failed. > > Somewhere on the web I found a guide. > Problem is, manufacturers change the stuff a lot so new stuff may not > fit a 30-40 year old panel. That sure was better in Europe, all > standardized and you were independent of manufacturers. sounds like we got it better here http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Consumer_unit#Device_interchangeability NT
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| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-12 07:10 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <eil36sFccf2U2@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #451430 |
On 2017-03-11 18:36, tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote: > On Saturday, 11 March 2017 20:31:32 UTC, Joerg wrote: >> On 2017-03-11 12:03, Jim Thompson wrote: >>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2017 11:53:07 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>> wrote: > snip snip > >>>> I just disassembled a panel that was so throughly botched by a >>>> "licensed" electrician that major corrections are in order. Among many >>>> mistakes he didn't properly protect it from the elements, a breaker has >>>> rusted and the tap-off is loose. > >>> Somewhere you can look up compatibility. I had the problem many years >>> ago when I needed to replace the pool breaker that had failed. >>> Somewhere on the web I found a guide. > >> Problem is, manufacturers change the stuff a lot so new stuff may not >> fit a 30-40 year old panel. That sure was better in Europe, all >> standardized and you were independent of manufacturers. > > sounds like we got it better here > http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Consumer_unit#Device_interchangeability > Ouch. That looks even worse than here. In the US we also have the phenomenon that a series is dropped completely. For example, here at the house we have Zinsco panels for which there are no more breakers. Used ones almost cost collectors prices and aftermarket ones used to be "a Dollar an amp" and now it's more like "two Dollars an amp". -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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| From | Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-11 13:09 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <oa1ld8$ism$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #451353 |
On 3/11/2017 12:53 PM, Joerg wrote: > Ok, not electronics but electrons flow here: > > I just disassembled a panel that was so throughly botched by a "licensed" > electrician that major corrections are in order. Among many mistakes he didn't > properly protect it from the elements, a breaker has rusted and the tap-off is > loose. Needless to say, the usual ancient stuff. Question: > > Can I replace EQ-P breakers from ITE with these from Siemens? > > http://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-25-Amp-Double-Pole-Type-QP-Circuit-Breaker-Q225/100183751 In general, its easier to just spend some time hunting down a "genuine" replacement. eBay, local "construction surplus" sites, folks who "reclaim" demoed buildings, etc. are good starting places. I chased down a 60 year old "bulldog" PUSHbutton breaker this way (totally different form factor from modern breakers so panel replacement or subpanel was the only viable option) > One of the customer questions asks that and a guy answered yes but I am > skeptical because there are a lot of incompatibilities in American breaker > systems. For example, while the Cruise Hinds breakers I have (I think that's > now Murray) look identical they do not fit. Almost but not quite, going only > 90% of the way in and they are 1/20" too fat. > > Roughing in a whole new panel would be MAJOR structural rework. When you find a replacement, buy a few spares. If you have any GFCI breakers, take that advice *doubly* so! "Banking" a $50 breaker now can save you lots of pain, later!
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| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-11 12:34 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <eij5a9F10r1U2@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #451355 |
On 2017-03-11 12:09, Don Y wrote: > On 3/11/2017 12:53 PM, Joerg wrote: >> Ok, not electronics but electrons flow here: >> >> I just disassembled a panel that was so throughly botched by a "licensed" >> electrician that major corrections are in order. Among many mistakes >> he didn't >> properly protect it from the elements, a breaker has rusted and the >> tap-off is >> loose. Needless to say, the usual ancient stuff. Question: >> >> Can I replace EQ-P breakers from ITE with these from Siemens? >> >> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-25-Amp-Double-Pole-Type-QP-Circuit-Breaker-Q225/100183751 >> > > In general, its easier to just spend some time hunting down a "genuine" > replacement. eBay, local "construction surplus" sites, folks who "reclaim" > demoed buildings, etc. are good starting places. > That will be very tedious. > I chased down a 60 year old "bulldog" PUSHbutton breaker this way (totally > different form factor from modern breakers so panel replacement or subpanel > was the only viable option) > If I had to do that I'd rather drop a serious check and have the whole wall ripped out and everything installed new. >> One of the customer questions asks that and a guy answered yes but I am >> skeptical because there are a lot of incompatibilities in American >> breaker >> systems. For example, while the Cruise Hinds breakers I have (I think >> that's >> now Murray) look identical they do not fit. Almost but not quite, >> going only >> 90% of the way in and they are 1/20" too fat. >> >> Roughing in a whole new panel would be MAJOR structural rework. > > When you find a replacement, buy a few spares. > > If you have any GFCI breakers, take that advice *doubly* so! "Banking" > a $50 > breaker now can save you lots of pain, later! No GFCI but I may add a GFCI outlet externally for some circuits and run them off of those. Even if not required by code. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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| From | Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-11 14:13 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <oa1p57$nb2$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #451360 |
On 3/11/2017 1:34 PM, Joerg wrote: >>> Can I replace EQ-P breakers from ITE with these from Siemens? >>> >>> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-25-Amp-Double-Pole-Type-QP-Circuit-Breaker-Q225/100183751 >> >> In general, its easier to just spend some time hunting down a "genuine" >> replacement. eBay, local "construction surplus" sites, folks who "reclaim" >> demoed buildings, etc. are good starting places. > > That will be very tedious. <shrug> depends on how you spend your time, your "regular haunts", the resources (people you know) available to you, etc. In my case, I swapped the breaker for one that could be "left off" to buy the time to locate the replacement. Expect never to have to do this, again! :> Same thing happened in this house as panel styles have changed over the years (decades). When I wanted to install 5 GFCI breakers I had to call in a few favors (to access certain vendors and get "better" pricing). But, beats the alternative (a separate subpanel) by many hundreds of dollars! >> I chased down a 60 year old "bulldog" PUSHbutton breaker this way (totally >> different form factor from modern breakers so panel replacement or subpanel >> was the only viable option) > > If I had to do that I'd rather drop a serious check and have the whole wall > ripped out and everything installed new. Inspections can be pricey and add significantly to the inconvenience, especially if you are living in the house at the time! >>> One of the customer questions asks that and a guy answered yes but I am >>> skeptical because there are a lot of incompatibilities in American >>> breaker >>> systems. For example, while the Cruise Hinds breakers I have (I think >>> that's >>> now Murray) look identical they do not fit. Almost but not quite, >>> going only >>> 90% of the way in and they are 1/20" too fat. >>> >>> Roughing in a whole new panel would be MAJOR structural rework. >> >> When you find a replacement, buy a few spares. >> >> If you have any GFCI breakers, take that advice *doubly* so! "Banking" >> a $50 >> breaker now can save you lots of pain, later! > > No GFCI but I may add a GFCI outlet externally for some circuits and run them > off of those. Even if not required by code. Consider AFCI, instead.
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| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-11 16:00 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <eijhbpF3douU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #451363 |
On 2017-03-11 13:13, Don Y wrote: > On 3/11/2017 1:34 PM, Joerg wrote: >>>> Can I replace EQ-P breakers from ITE with these from Siemens? >>>> >>>> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-25-Amp-Double-Pole-Type-QP-Circuit-Breaker-Q225/100183751 >>>> >>> >>> In general, its easier to just spend some time hunting down a "genuine" >>> replacement. eBay, local "construction surplus" sites, folks who >>> "reclaim" >>> demoed buildings, etc. are good starting places. >> >> That will be very tedious. > > <shrug> depends on how you spend your time, your "regular haunts", the > resources (people you know) available to you, etc. > > In my case, I swapped the breaker for one that could be "left off" > to buy the time to locate the replacement. Expect never to have to > do this, again! :> > > Same thing happened in this house as panel styles have changed over the > years > (decades). When I wanted to install 5 GFCI breakers I had to call in a few > favors (to access certain vendors and get "better" pricing). But, beats > the alternative (a separate subpanel) by many hundreds of dollars! > >>> I chased down a 60 year old "bulldog" PUSHbutton breaker this way >>> (totally >>> different form factor from modern breakers so panel replacement or >>> subpanel >>> was the only viable option) >> >> If I had to do that I'd rather drop a serious check and have the whole >> wall >> ripped out and everything installed new. > > Inspections can be pricey and add significantly to the inconvenience, > especially if you are living in the house at the time! > >>>> One of the customer questions asks that and a guy answered yes but I am >>>> skeptical because there are a lot of incompatibilities in American >>>> breaker >>>> systems. For example, while the Cruise Hinds breakers I have (I think >>>> that's >>>> now Murray) look identical they do not fit. Almost but not quite, >>>> going only >>>> 90% of the way in and they are 1/20" too fat. >>>> >>>> Roughing in a whole new panel would be MAJOR structural rework. >>> >>> When you find a replacement, buy a few spares. >>> >>> If you have any GFCI breakers, take that advice *doubly* so! "Banking" >>> a $50 >>> breaker now can save you lots of pain, later! >> >> No GFCI but I may add a GFCI outlet externally for some circuits and >> run them >> off of those. Even if not required by code. > > Consider AFCI, instead. > Just came back from the HW store and luckily the guy at the electical aisle was a former electrician. He said the new Murray breakers fit the panel and (so far) they do. I looked at GFCI and got sticker shock. $50 (fifty!) a pop. Yikes. If I want GF protection I'll just come off with a stub into a GFCI outlet and then on from there. It's now all 15A, was 20A but the <expletive censored> dude who built this panel chose to use 14AWG wire on a 30A (!) breaker. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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| From | Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-11 17:22 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <oa247j$tqu$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #451392 |
On 3/11/2017 5:00 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>> No GFCI but I may add a GFCI outlet externally for some circuits and
>>> run them
>>> off of those. Even if not required by code.
>>
>> Consider AFCI, instead.
>
> Just came back from the HW store and luckily the guy at the electical aisle was
> a former electrician. He said the new Murray breakers fit the panel and (so
> far) they do. I looked at GFCI and got sticker shock. $50 (fifty!) a pop.
> Yikes. If I want GF protection I'll just come off with a stub into a GFCI
> outlet and then on from there. It's now all 15A, was 20A but the <expletive
> censored> dude who built this panel chose to use 14AWG wire on a 30A (!) breaker.
The GFCI *outlets* don't seem to hold up, well. There are also
cosmetic issues ("Why does this outlet have two little buttons?"
or "Why is this outlet SQUARE while these others are ROUNDED?"
We opted for GFCI breakers instead of relying on the outlets with daisy-chained
(often shitty back-stabbed connections!) support for downstream outlets.
Having friends in the business made them much more affordable (when they are
buying thousands of devices each year, it behooves their suppliers to cut
them a good deal!)
Bathrooms, garage, outdoors, kitchen, etc.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | krw@notreal.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-11 21:40 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <e1d9ccdgn1r8717e1tp7is3rh6n15qmkjs@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #451398 |
On Sat, 11 Mar 2017 17:22:57 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>On 3/11/2017 5:00 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>> No GFCI but I may add a GFCI outlet externally for some circuits and
>>>> run them
>>>> off of those. Even if not required by code.
>>>
>>> Consider AFCI, instead.
>>
>> Just came back from the HW store and luckily the guy at the electical aisle was
>> a former electrician. He said the new Murray breakers fit the panel and (so
>> far) they do. I looked at GFCI and got sticker shock. $50 (fifty!) a pop.
>> Yikes. If I want GF protection I'll just come off with a stub into a GFCI
>> outlet and then on from there. It's now all 15A, was 20A but the <expletive
>> censored> dude who built this panel chose to use 14AWG wire on a 30A (!) breaker.
>
>The GFCI *outlets* don't seem to hold up, well. There are also
>cosmetic issues ("Why does this outlet have two little buttons?"
>or "Why is this outlet SQUARE while these others are ROUNDED?"
I don't think I've had the GFCI feature fail. I've had the contacts
loosen but that's not unusal for regular outlets, either.
I just put the GFCI outlets where they don't show (except the kitchen
where they have to be accessible). The "square" outlets are simply
"Decora". If havign outlets that don't match bothers you so much, you
can change them all to Decora.
>
>We opted for GFCI breakers instead of relying on the outlets with daisy-chained
>(often shitty back-stabbed connections!) support for downstream outlets.
>Having friends in the business made them much more affordable (when they are
>buying thousands of devices each year, it behooves their suppliers to cut
>them a good deal!)
No need to use the back-stabs, though the outlets where the wires go
into holes in the back and are tightened down with the side-screws are
great.
>
>Bathrooms, garage, outdoors, kitchen, etc.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-12 07:07 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <eil31iFccf2U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #451398 |
On 2017-03-11 16:22, Don Y wrote:
> On 3/11/2017 5:00 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>> No GFCI but I may add a GFCI outlet externally for some circuits and
>>>> run them
>>>> off of those. Even if not required by code.
>>>
>>> Consider AFCI, instead.
>>
>> Just came back from the HW store and luckily the guy at the electical
>> aisle was
>> a former electrician. He said the new Murray breakers fit the panel
>> and (so
>> far) they do. I looked at GFCI and got sticker shock. $50 (fifty!) a pop.
>> Yikes. If I want GF protection I'll just come off with a stub into a GFCI
>> outlet and then on from there. It's now all 15A, was 20A but the
>> <expletive
>> censored> dude who built this panel chose to use 14AWG wire on a 30A
>> (!) breaker.
>
> The GFCI *outlets* don't seem to hold up, well. There are also
> cosmetic issues ("Why does this outlet have two little buttons?"
> or "Why is this outlet SQUARE while these others are ROUNDED?"
>
Here they do hold up. Square, round, who cares? Aside from an order of
magnitude lower cost while affording the same protection the GFCI outlet
is where the action is and not at the end of some dark hallway. So if
someone plugs in a device and it goes click .. lights out .. they know
what happened. They can reset it right there.
An electrician told me that is is quite common that people opt for the
outlet instead of the breaker. He couldn't understand the high prices
either.
> We opted for GFCI breakers instead of relying on the outlets with
> daisy-chained
> (often shitty back-stabbed connections!) support for downstream outlets.
> Having friends in the business made them much more affordable (when they
> are
> buying thousands of devices each year, it behooves their suppliers to cut
> them a good deal!)
>
> Bathrooms, garage, outdoors, kitchen, etc.
Some folks don't have "friends in the business" and $50 a pop is
outrageous. I don't mind paying for good quality merchandise but I do
mind when a company tried to rip me off.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-12 07:59 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <oa3nj6$7fm$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #451469 |
On 3/12/2017 7:07 AM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-03-11 16:22, Don Y wrote:
>> On 3/11/2017 5:00 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>>> No GFCI but I may add a GFCI outlet externally for some circuits and
>>>>> run them
>>>>> off of those. Even if not required by code.
>>>>
>>>> Consider AFCI, instead.
>>>
>>> Just came back from the HW store and luckily the guy at the electical
>>> aisle was
>>> a former electrician. He said the new Murray breakers fit the panel
>>> and (so
>>> far) they do. I looked at GFCI and got sticker shock. $50 (fifty!) a pop.
>>> Yikes. If I want GF protection I'll just come off with a stub into a GFCI
>>> outlet and then on from there. It's now all 15A, was 20A but the
>>> <expletive
>>> censored> dude who built this panel chose to use 14AWG wire on a 30A
>>> (!) breaker.
>>
>> The GFCI *outlets* don't seem to hold up, well. There are also
>> cosmetic issues ("Why does this outlet have two little buttons?"
>> or "Why is this outlet SQUARE while these others are ROUNDED?"
>
> Here they do hold up.
I've been called on to replace several for friends/neighbors.
Particularly outdoor installations (water/moisture/critters
foul the mechanism).
I've replaced some of the "standard" outlets on our GFCI branch circuits
over the years simply because they've seen too much wear (kitchen counter
circuits and outdoor circuits see lots of plug insertion events).
> Square, round, who cares?
When the other outlets nearby are one style, it's tacky to have a
*different* style nearby. Also, covers for "in use" protection
suit one or the other style. And, you tend to have a larger range
of "quality" available in the "round" style (at a more affordable
price). Finally, you aren't at the whim of the EXISTING WIRING
in determining where to site the GFCI outlet which MUST be at the
furthest upstream outlet on the branch circuit being protected
(annoying if you're forced to locate the "master outlet" in a
spot that is less accessible than you'd want; or, that is
glaringly different, cosmetically, than the outlets 24 inches
away on each side.)
> Aside from an order of
> magnitude lower cost while affording the same protection the GFCI outlet is
> where the action is and not at the end of some dark hallway. So if someone
> plugs in a device and it goes click .. lights out .. they know what happened.
> They can reset it right there.
In 20 years, the only time we've tripped a GFCI has been when the receptacle
end of an extension cord plugged into an outdoor outlet was lying in a puddle
of water adjacent to the outlet. Took multiple attempts to determine this
to be the cause (because ANOTHER cord was plugged into another outlet
on that same branch circuit with the same condition some 40 feet distant!)
It was nice to know I wouldn't have my feet in that water as I "reset" the
circuit!
If the GFCI trips, I *know* where it is located (in the load center). I
don't have to wander into the *other* bathroom to reset a fault in THIS
bathroom. Or, wander around the exterior of the house looking to see which
of the outdoor outlets has the GFCI installed, therein (ditto for the garage:
"Is it behind THIS pile of stuff? or the NEXT pile?"). It's easier for SWMBO
to KNOW that a "blown circuit" (for whatever reason, whatever circuit) is
handled in the load center instead of forcing her to remember which circuits
are protected by GFCI's (IN SERIES WITH CIRCUIT BREAKERS) and which are
protected by *just* circuit breakers.
If you enjoy the convenience of having the ability to reset a blown breaker
AT the receptacle, why not put a GFCI on EACH branch circuit? ("Gee, which
bedroom has the GFCI for *this* bedroom's outlets?")
> An electrician told me that is is quite common that people opt for the outlet
> instead of the breaker. He couldn't understand the high prices either.
It's common because its easier to replace (install) a receptacle than a
breaker. The cost difference is undoubtedly related to differences in
manufacturing quantity.
>> We opted for GFCI breakers instead of relying on the outlets with
>> daisy-chained
>> (often shitty back-stabbed connections!) support for downstream outlets.
>> Having friends in the business made them much more affordable (when they
>> are
>> buying thousands of devices each year, it behooves their suppliers to cut
>> them a good deal!)
>>
>> Bathrooms, garage, outdoors, kitchen, etc.
>
> Some folks don't have "friends in the business" and $50 a pop is outrageous. I
> don't mind paying for good quality merchandise but I do mind when a company
> tried to rip me off.
Find a more reputable company!
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-12 08:16 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <eil739Fd6aqU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #451479 |
On 2017-03-12 07:59, Don Y wrote:
> On 3/12/2017 7:07 AM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-03-11 16:22, Don Y wrote:
>>> On 3/11/2017 5:00 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>>>> No GFCI but I may add a GFCI outlet externally for some circuits and
>>>>>> run them
>>>>>> off of those. Even if not required by code.
>>>>>
>>>>> Consider AFCI, instead.
>>>>
>>>> Just came back from the HW store and luckily the guy at the electical
>>>> aisle was
>>>> a former electrician. He said the new Murray breakers fit the panel
>>>> and (so
>>>> far) they do. I looked at GFCI and got sticker shock. $50 (fifty!) a
>>>> pop.
>>>> Yikes. If I want GF protection I'll just come off with a stub into a
>>>> GFCI
>>>> outlet and then on from there. It's now all 15A, was 20A but the
>>>> <expletive
>>>> censored> dude who built this panel chose to use 14AWG wire on a 30A
>>>> (!) breaker.
>>>
>>> The GFCI *outlets* don't seem to hold up, well. There are also
>>> cosmetic issues ("Why does this outlet have two little buttons?"
>>> or "Why is this outlet SQUARE while these others are ROUNDED?"
>>
>> Here they do hold up.
>
> I've been called on to replace several for friends/neighbors.
I try to avoid those kinds of calls. "No, I am more into electronics".
> Particularly outdoor installations (water/moisture/critters
> foul the mechanism).
>
The trick is to have that one outlet covered and at the most be a
convenience outlet. One that is only used if you have to work on
equipment nearby and need more than a Li-Ion drill.
> I've replaced some of the "standard" outlets on our GFCI branch circuits
> over the years simply because they've seen too much wear (kitchen counter
> circuits and outdoor circuits see lots of plug insertion events).
>
Par for the course in a kitchen. Though more and more I use battery
tools there. Like Friday. Whenever I make beer and rack off from primary
we use the trub, the "yeast cake" in the bottom of the fermenter that
many brewer just dump. After harvesting some of the yeast it becomes a
bread starter. Later when mixing the dough I use a powerful Li-Ion
drill. A kitchen mixer would not stand a chance with this tough stuff.
After rising enough we bake it outdoors in the Weber barbecue. If I am
involved in cooking it's all wood or charcoal, no kitchen.
>> Square, round, who cares?
>
> When the other outlets nearby are one style, it's tacky to have a
> *different* style nearby. Also, covers for "in use" protection
> suit one or the other style. And, you tend to have a larger range
> of "quality" available in the "round" style (at a more affordable
> price). Finally, you aren't at the whim of the EXISTING WIRING
> in determining where to site the GFCI outlet which MUST be at the
> furthest upstream outlet on the branch circuit being protected
> (annoying if you're forced to locate the "master outlet" in a
> spot that is less accessible than you'd want; or, that is
> glaringly different, cosmetically, than the outlets 24 inches
> away on each side.)
>
In Germany they sometimes had a GFI at the entrance of a room, usually
above the door. That was really practical. I like protection devices to
be local and accessible right where the action is, just like it is on
aircraft.
>> Aside from an order of
>> magnitude lower cost while affording the same protection the GFCI
>> outlet is
>> where the action is and not at the end of some dark hallway. So if
>> someone
>> plugs in a device and it goes click .. lights out .. they know what
>> happened.
>> They can reset it right there.
>
> In 20 years, the only time we've tripped a GFCI has been when the
> receptacle
> end of an extension cord plugged into an outdoor outlet was lying in a
> puddle of water adjacent to the outlet. Took multiple attempts to
> determine this
> to be the cause (because ANOTHER cord was plugged into another outlet
> on that same branch circuit with the same condition some 40 feet distant!)
> It was nice to know I wouldn't have my feet in that water as I "reset" the
> circuit!
>
> If the GFCI trips, I *know* where it is located (in the load center). I
> don't have to wander into the *other* bathroom to reset a fault in THIS
> bathroom.
One shall not protect a bathroom with a device in another room. That's
bad layout.
> Or, wander around the exterior of the house looking to see which
> of the outdoor outlets has the GFCI installed, therein (ditto for the
> garage:
> "Is it behind THIS pile of stuff? or the NEXT pile?"). It's easier for
> SWMBO
> to KNOW that a "blown circuit" (for whatever reason, whatever circuit) is
> handled in the load center instead of forcing her to remember which
> circuits
> are protected by GFCI's (IN SERIES WITH CIRCUIT BREAKERS) and which are
> protected by *just* circuit breakers.
>
That all becomes a pain when, like happened to me, you have a
thunderstorm and ... THWOCK ... lights out. Now where is a flashlight in
this building? Where could the breaker panel be? Basement? Which room in
the basement? Or is there a subpanel on another floor? Maybe on this floor?
> If you enjoy the convenience of having the ability to reset a blown breaker
> AT the receptacle, why not put a GFCI on EACH branch circuit? ("Gee, which
> bedroom has the GFCI for *this* bedroom's outlets?")
>
One per room suffices. Normally you even hear the click. Ah, over there!
>> An electrician told me that is is quite common that people opt for the
>> outlet
>> instead of the breaker. He couldn't understand the high prices either.
>
> It's common because its easier to replace (install) a receptacle than a
> breaker. The cost difference is undoubtedly related to differences in
> manufacturing quantity.
>
>>> We opted for GFCI breakers instead of relying on the outlets with
>>> daisy-chained
>>> (often shitty back-stabbed connections!) support for downstream outlets.
>>> Having friends in the business made them much more affordable (when they
>>> are
>>> buying thousands of devices each year, it behooves their suppliers to
>>> cut
>>> them a good deal!)
>>>
>>> Bathrooms, garage, outdoors, kitchen, etc.
>>
>> Some folks don't have "friends in the business" and $50 a pop is
>> outrageous. I
>> don't mind paying for good quality merchandise but I do mind when a
>> company
>> tried to rip me off.
>
> Find a more reputable company!
Once you have a particular panel you no longer have that choice. Must
buy at the company store.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-12 12:16 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <oa46l3$t1b$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #451484 |
On 3/12/2017 8:16 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>>> The GFCI *outlets* don't seem to hold up, well. There are also
>>>> cosmetic issues ("Why does this outlet have two little buttons?"
>>>> or "Why is this outlet SQUARE while these others are ROUNDED?"
>>>
>>> Here they do hold up.
>>
>> I've been called on to replace several for friends/neighbors.
>
> I try to avoid those kinds of calls. "No, I am more into electronics".
I do "whatever I can" for my friends. Far less for clients! :>
>> Particularly outdoor installations (water/moisture/critters
>> foul the mechanism).
>
> The trick is to have that one outlet covered and at the most be a convenience
> outlet. One that is only used if you have to work on equipment nearby and need
> more than a Li-Ion drill.
You don't often have a choice of where that outlet will be located
unless you're doing new construction. You're at the mercy of the
electrician who originally wired the house as to where the "most
upstream" receptacle on a particular branch circuit is located.
This is true for any circuit intending to be GFCI protected -- if
you want to slave outlets off a "master" outlet.
>> I've replaced some of the "standard" outlets on our GFCI branch circuits
>> over the years simply because they've seen too much wear (kitchen counter
>> circuits and outdoor circuits see lots of plug insertion events).
>
> Par for the course in a kitchen. Though more and more I use battery tools
Most countertop appliances are designed with short cords to encourage being
unplugged as the counters are routinely cleaned. So, the repeated plug/unplug
of appliances into the same set of receptacles eventually makes a visible
impact on them.
Then, there are the issues of stylistic changes as preferences change
over the years. E.g., originally, all our devices were cream colored.
Then summarily replaced with white. Then, the "Decora" style. Now,
entertaining the Adorne/square style. As the GFCI issue is not tied to the
actual device, we are free to make that change without having to chase
down $35 GFCI "square" replacements.
> there. Like Friday. Whenever I make beer and rack off from primary we use the
> trub, the "yeast cake" in the bottom of the fermenter that many brewer just
> dump. After harvesting some of the yeast it becomes a bread starter. Later when
> mixing the dough I use a powerful Li-Ion drill. A kitchen mixer would not stand
> a chance with this tough stuff. After rising enough we bake it outdoors in the
> Weber barbecue. If I am involved in cooking it's all wood or charcoal, no kitchen.
>
>>> Square, round, who cares?
>>
>> When the other outlets nearby are one style, it's tacky to have a
>> *different* style nearby. Also, covers for "in use" protection
>> suit one or the other style. And, you tend to have a larger range
>> of "quality" available in the "round" style (at a more affordable
>> price). Finally, you aren't at the whim of the EXISTING WIRING
>> in determining where to site the GFCI outlet which MUST be at the
>> furthest upstream outlet on the branch circuit being protected
>> (annoying if you're forced to locate the "master outlet" in a
>> spot that is less accessible than you'd want; or, that is
>> glaringly different, cosmetically, than the outlets 24 inches
>> away on each side.)
>
> In Germany they sometimes had a GFI at the entrance of a room, usually above
> the door. That was really practical. I like protection devices to be local and
> accessible right where the action is, just like it is on aircraft.
AFAICT, you're not living in Germany, now (?).
>>> Aside from an order of
>>> magnitude lower cost while affording the same protection the GFCI
>>> outlet is
>>> where the action is and not at the end of some dark hallway. So if
>>> someone
>>> plugs in a device and it goes click .. lights out .. they know what
>>> happened.
>>> They can reset it right there.
>>
>> In 20 years, the only time we've tripped a GFCI has been when the
>> receptacle
>> end of an extension cord plugged into an outdoor outlet was lying in a
>> puddle of water adjacent to the outlet. Took multiple attempts to
>> determine this
>> to be the cause (because ANOTHER cord was plugged into another outlet
>> on that same branch circuit with the same condition some 40 feet distant!)
>> It was nice to know I wouldn't have my feet in that water as I "reset" the
>> circuit!
>>
>> If the GFCI trips, I *know* where it is located (in the load center). I
>> don't have to wander into the *other* bathroom to reset a fault in THIS
>> bathroom.
>
> One shall not protect a bathroom with a device in another room. That's bad layout.
Most homes of this vintage have a single circuit feeding two or more
bathrooms (because the lighting circuit there isn't GFCI). Especially
true when multiple bathrooms tend to share a wet wall -- the electric
outlets in each bathroom will tend to be as closely sited as the water
closets!
And, demand for power from a receptacle in a bathroom is sporadic and
typically not excessive. E.g., a 20A circuit can handle the two hair dryers
that *might* be in use simultaneously.
>> Or, wander around the exterior of the house looking to see which
>> of the outdoor outlets has the GFCI installed, therein (ditto for the
>> garage:
>> "Is it behind THIS pile of stuff? or the NEXT pile?"). It's easier for
>> SWMBO
>> to KNOW that a "blown circuit" (for whatever reason, whatever circuit) is
>> handled in the load center instead of forcing her to remember which
>> circuits
>> are protected by GFCI's (IN SERIES WITH CIRCUIT BREAKERS) and which are
>> protected by *just* circuit breakers.
>
> That all becomes a pain when, like happened to me, you have a thunderstorm and
> ... THWOCK ... lights out. Now where is a flashlight in this building? Where
> could the breaker panel be? Basement? Which room in the basement? Or is there a
> subpanel on another floor? Maybe on this floor?
And the GFCI is vulnerable to thunderstorms? Can you reset it when the
power has *failed*?
We have (tiny) flashlights by each bedside and work area. Along with
"nightlights" in the public spaces that we leave on when entertaining
overnight guests -- acknowledging they probably won't be familiar
with the house layout to navigate it in the dark.
>> If you enjoy the convenience of having the ability to reset a blown breaker
>> AT the receptacle, why not put a GFCI on EACH branch circuit? ("Gee, which
>> bedroom has the GFCI for *this* bedroom's outlets?")
>
> One per room suffices. Normally you even hear the click. Ah, over there!
Most (older) homes spread branch circuits over multiple rooms. E.g., a
lighting circuit may cover three or four rooms. Ditto for outlets.
Multiple GFCI's on a single branch circuit tend to be problematic.
>>> An electrician told me that is is quite common that people opt for the
>>> outlet
>>> instead of the breaker. He couldn't understand the high prices either.
>>
>> It's common because its easier to replace (install) a receptacle than a
>> breaker. The cost difference is undoubtedly related to differences in
>> manufacturing quantity.
>>
>>>> We opted for GFCI breakers instead of relying on the outlets with
>>>> daisy-chained
>>>> (often shitty back-stabbed connections!) support for downstream outlets.
>>>> Having friends in the business made them much more affordable (when they
>>>> are
>>>> buying thousands of devices each year, it behooves their suppliers to
>>>> cut
>>>> them a good deal!)
>>>>
>>>> Bathrooms, garage, outdoors, kitchen, etc.
>>>
>>> Some folks don't have "friends in the business" and $50 a pop is
>>> outrageous. I
>>> don't mind paying for good quality merchandise but I do mind when a
>>> company
>>> tried to rip me off.
>>
>> Find a more reputable company!
>
> Once you have a particular panel you no longer have that choice. Must buy at
> the company store.
And, once you settle on a particular GFCI style, you no longer have that
choice.
Until you settle on a *different* GFCI style! :>
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-13 11:19 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <eio65pF11dfU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #451507 |
On 2017-03-12 12:16, Don Y wrote:
> On 3/12/2017 8:16 AM, Joerg wrote:
[...]
>>>> Square, round, who cares?
>>>
>>> When the other outlets nearby are one style, it's tacky to have a
>>> *different* style nearby. Also, covers for "in use" protection
>>> suit one or the other style. And, you tend to have a larger range
>>> of "quality" available in the "round" style (at a more affordable
>>> price). Finally, you aren't at the whim of the EXISTING WIRING
>>> in determining where to site the GFCI outlet which MUST be at the
>>> furthest upstream outlet on the branch circuit being protected
>>> (annoying if you're forced to locate the "master outlet" in a
>>> spot that is less accessible than you'd want; or, that is
>>> glaringly different, cosmetically, than the outlets 24 inches
>>> away on each side.)
>>
>> In Germany they sometimes had a GFI at the entrance of a room, usually
>> above
>> the door. That was really practical. I like protection devices to be
>> local and
>> accessible right where the action is, just like it is on aircraft.
>
> AFAICT, you're not living in Germany, now (?).
>
No but I have lived there and in other countries. I makes sense to learn
from others and adopt methods that work as long as legal in the new
jurisdiction.
>>>> Aside from an order of
>>>> magnitude lower cost while affording the same protection the GFCI
>>>> outlet is
>>>> where the action is and not at the end of some dark hallway. So if
>>>> someone
>>>> plugs in a device and it goes click .. lights out .. they know what
>>>> happened.
>>>> They can reset it right there.
>>>
>>> In 20 years, the only time we've tripped a GFCI has been when the
>>> receptacle
>>> end of an extension cord plugged into an outdoor outlet was lying in a
>>> puddle of water adjacent to the outlet. Took multiple attempts to
>>> determine this
>>> to be the cause (because ANOTHER cord was plugged into another outlet
>>> on that same branch circuit with the same condition some 40 feet
>>> distant!)
>>> It was nice to know I wouldn't have my feet in that water as I
>>> "reset" the
>>> circuit!
>>>
>>> If the GFCI trips, I *know* where it is located (in the load center). I
>>> don't have to wander into the *other* bathroom to reset a fault in THIS
>>> bathroom.
>>
>> One shall not protect a bathroom with a device in another room. That's
>> bad layout.
>
> Most homes of this vintage have a single circuit feeding two or more
> bathrooms (because the lighting circuit there isn't GFCI). Especially
> true when multiple bathrooms tend to share a wet wall -- the electric
> outlets in each bathroom will tend to be as closely sited as the water
> closets!
>
Not a good design and luckily not done that way in our 1970 house.
> And, demand for power from a receptacle in a bathroom is sporadic and
> typically not excessive. E.g., a 20A circuit can handle the two hair
> dryers
> that *might* be in use simultaneously.
>
Unless you have teenage daughters :-)
>>> Or, wander around the exterior of the house looking to see which
>>> of the outdoor outlets has the GFCI installed, therein (ditto for the
>>> garage:
>>> "Is it behind THIS pile of stuff? or the NEXT pile?"). It's easier for
>>> SWMBO
>>> to KNOW that a "blown circuit" (for whatever reason, whatever
>>> circuit) is
>>> handled in the load center instead of forcing her to remember which
>>> circuits
>>> are protected by GFCI's (IN SERIES WITH CIRCUIT BREAKERS) and which are
>>> protected by *just* circuit breakers.
>>
>> That all becomes a pain when, like happened to me, you have a
>> thunderstorm and
>> ... THWOCK ... lights out. Now where is a flashlight in this building?
>> Where
>> could the breaker panel be? Basement? Which room in the basement? Or
>> is there a
>> subpanel on another floor? Maybe on this floor?
>
> And the GFCI is vulnerable to thunderstorms? Can you reset it when the
> power has *failed*?
>
Yes on both.
> We have (tiny) flashlights by each bedside and work area. Along with
> "nightlights" in the public spaces that we leave on when entertaining
> overnight guests -- acknowledging they probably won't be familiar
> with the house layout to navigate it in the dark.
>
So do we but there's other lights along the way which stay on because
GFCI is only local.
>>> If you enjoy the convenience of having the ability to reset a blown
>>> breaker
>>> AT the receptacle, why not put a GFCI on EACH branch circuit? ("Gee,
>>> which
>>> bedroom has the GFCI for *this* bedroom's outlets?")
>>
>> One per room suffices. Normally you even hear the click. Ah, over there!
>
> Most (older) homes spread branch circuits over multiple rooms. E.g., a
> lighting circuit may cover three or four rooms. Ditto for outlets.
> Multiple GFCI's on a single branch circuit tend to be problematic.
>
Then the builders have cut corners.
[...]
>>>>> We opted for GFCI breakers instead of relying on the outlets with
>>>>> daisy-chained
>>>>> (often shitty back-stabbed connections!) support for downstream
>>>>> outlets.
>>>>> Having friends in the business made them much more affordable (when
>>>>> they
>>>>> are
>>>>> buying thousands of devices each year, it behooves their suppliers to
>>>>> cut
>>>>> them a good deal!)
>>>>>
>>>>> Bathrooms, garage, outdoors, kitchen, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Some folks don't have "friends in the business" and $50 a pop is
>>>> outrageous. I
>>>> don't mind paying for good quality merchandise but I do mind when a
>>>> company
>>>> tried to rip me off.
>>>
>>> Find a more reputable company!
>>
>> Once you have a particular panel you no longer have that choice. Must
>> buy at
>> the company store.
>
> And, once you settle on a particular GFCI style, you no longer have that
> choice.
>
> Until you settle on a *different* GFCI style! :>
Luckily my wife is oblivious to that sort of technical stuff.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-15 12:52 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <oac5t5$svd$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #451642 |
On 3/13/2017 11:19 AM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-03-12 12:16, Don Y wrote:
>> On 3/12/2017 8:16 AM, Joerg wrote:
>
>>>>> Square, round, who cares?
>>>>
>>>> When the other outlets nearby are one style, it's tacky to have a
>>>> *different* style nearby. Also, covers for "in use" protection
>>>> suit one or the other style. And, you tend to have a larger range
>>>> of "quality" available in the "round" style (at a more affordable
>>>> price). Finally, you aren't at the whim of the EXISTING WIRING
>>>> in determining where to site the GFCI outlet which MUST be at the
>>>> furthest upstream outlet on the branch circuit being protected
>>>> (annoying if you're forced to locate the "master outlet" in a
>>>> spot that is less accessible than you'd want; or, that is
>>>> glaringly different, cosmetically, than the outlets 24 inches
>>>> away on each side.)
>>>
>>> In Germany they sometimes had a GFI at the entrance of a room, usually
>>> above
>>> the door. That was really practical. I like protection devices to be
>>> local and
>>> accessible right where the action is, just like it is on aircraft.
>>
>> AFAICT, you're not living in Germany, now (?).
>
> No but I have lived there and in other countries. I makes sense to learn from
> others and adopt methods that work as long as legal in the new jurisdiction.
In the US, a GFCI *receptacle* can't be the sole protection on a circuit.
So, you still have to have a breaker somewhere -- ELSE.
Now, when your GFCI protected circuit is "dead", you have to look in
two places to see which device interrupted the current flow.
>>>>> Aside from an order of
>>>>> magnitude lower cost while affording the same protection the GFCI
>>>>> outlet is
>>>>> where the action is and not at the end of some dark hallway. So if
>>>>> someone
>>>>> plugs in a device and it goes click .. lights out .. they know what
>>>>> happened.
>>>>> They can reset it right there.
>>>>
>>>> In 20 years, the only time we've tripped a GFCI has been when the
>>>> receptacle
>>>> end of an extension cord plugged into an outdoor outlet was lying in a
>>>> puddle of water adjacent to the outlet. Took multiple attempts to
>>>> determine this
>>>> to be the cause (because ANOTHER cord was plugged into another outlet
>>>> on that same branch circuit with the same condition some 40 feet
>>>> distant!)
>>>> It was nice to know I wouldn't have my feet in that water as I
>>>> "reset" the
>>>> circuit!
>>>>
>>>> If the GFCI trips, I *know* where it is located (in the load center). I
>>>> don't have to wander into the *other* bathroom to reset a fault in THIS
>>>> bathroom.
>>>
>>> One shall not protect a bathroom with a device in another room. That's
>>> bad layout.
>>
>> Most homes of this vintage have a single circuit feeding two or more
>> bathrooms (because the lighting circuit there isn't GFCI). Especially
>> true when multiple bathrooms tend to share a wet wall -- the electric
>> outlets in each bathroom will tend to be as closely sited as the water
>> closets!
>
> Not a good design and luckily not done that way in our 1970 house.
In our 1980 house, that's the way it is. The same was true of the 1950 home
that I grew up in.
It's only recent construction that has opted to put more branch circuits
in place in rooms other than the kitchen.
>> And, demand for power from a receptacle in a bathroom is sporadic and
>> typically not excessive. E.g., a 20A circuit can handle the two hair
>> dryers
>> that *might* be in use simultaneously.
>
> Unless you have teenage daughters :-)
We can run hairdryers in both bathrooms without a problem. I can put 4
electric frying pans in use along with the 1KW microwave/broiler oven,
dishwasher, garbage disposal, exhaust fan, electric oven, etc. without
tripping a breaker.
The only time we've tripped a breaker has been with an outdoor GFCI
feeding XMAS lights via extension cords strung across the yard lying
in puddles of water or following the cords down the wires to bring water
into the cord outlets.
>>>> Or, wander around the exterior of the house looking to see which
>>>> of the outdoor outlets has the GFCI installed, therein (ditto for the
>>>> garage:
>>>> "Is it behind THIS pile of stuff? or the NEXT pile?"). It's easier for
>>>> SWMBO
>>>> to KNOW that a "blown circuit" (for whatever reason, whatever
>>>> circuit) is
>>>> handled in the load center instead of forcing her to remember which
>>>> circuits
>>>> are protected by GFCI's (IN SERIES WITH CIRCUIT BREAKERS) and which are
>>>> protected by *just* circuit breakers.
>>>
>>> That all becomes a pain when, like happened to me, you have a
>>> thunderstorm and
>>> ... THWOCK ... lights out. Now where is a flashlight in this building?
>>> Where
>>> could the breaker panel be? Basement? Which room in the basement? Or
>>> is there a
>>> subpanel on another floor? Maybe on this floor?
>>
>> And the GFCI is vulnerable to thunderstorms? Can you reset it when the
>> power has *failed*?
>
> Yes on both.
GFCI trips during thunderstorm? Sounds like a shitty GFCI.
<http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=153998>
>> We have (tiny) flashlights by each bedside and work area. Along with
>> "nightlights" in the public spaces that we leave on when entertaining
>> overnight guests -- acknowledging they probably won't be familiar
>> with the house layout to navigate it in the dark.
>
> So do we but there's other lights along the way which stay on because GFCI is
> only local.
Our GFCI circuits protect places where required by code:
- garage
- kitchen
- wet areas
etc.
Usually, there are other circuits serving the same physical areas that
are on different breakers entirely (cuz our GFCI protection is done at the
load center so you *know* a circuit is GFCI or non-GFCI, by definition).
Kitchen lighting is separate from counter circuits. Ditto bathroom
lighting, garage lighting, outdoor lighting (our fixtures above 8ft).
But, power can still "fail", regardless of a local fault. Hence the
availability of flashlights throughout the house.
And, assuming power to be available, having "night lights" for guests
so they can navigate the house without having to "turn on" any
lights (we can illuminate the entire house with a "soft glow" that
is only noticeable when your eyes have acclimated to the dark (too
dim to notice otherwise)
>>>> If you enjoy the convenience of having the ability to reset a blown
>>>> breaker
>>>> AT the receptacle, why not put a GFCI on EACH branch circuit? ("Gee,
>>>> which
>>>> bedroom has the GFCI for *this* bedroom's outlets?")
>>>
>>> One per room suffices. Normally you even hear the click. Ah, over there!
>>
>> Most (older) homes spread branch circuits over multiple rooms. E.g., a
>> lighting circuit may cover three or four rooms. Ditto for outlets.
>> Multiple GFCI's on a single branch circuit tend to be problematic.
>
> Then the builders have cut corners.
Do you have a separate receptacle circuit for each room in your house?
Living room, dining room, family room, hallways, each bedroom, each
bathroom (GFCI), garage, etc.? *And* different lighting circuits (so
you don't lose ALL power in a room when a breaker fails)?
We have dedicated circuits for ACbrrr, oven, swamp cooler, refrigerator, dryer,
furnace and the 5 GFCI circuits (kitchen/bath/outdoor/garage). The bedrooms
are distributed on 3 different circuits -- mixing outlets and lighting
in a way that ensures one or the other is available in each room as long as
no more than one of these breakers are tripped. Living/dining share a
lighting circuit as do kitchen/family room. A total of 29 circuits (I think
the load center can support 30) for a "modest" 3BR home.
>>>>>> We opted for GFCI breakers instead of relying on the outlets with
>>>>>> daisy-chained
>>>>>> (often shitty back-stabbed connections!) support for downstream
>>>>>> outlets.
>>>>>> Having friends in the business made them much more affordable (when
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> buying thousands of devices each year, it behooves their suppliers to
>>>>>> cut
>>>>>> them a good deal!)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bathrooms, garage, outdoors, kitchen, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some folks don't have "friends in the business" and $50 a pop is
>>>>> outrageous. I
>>>>> don't mind paying for good quality merchandise but I do mind when a
>>>>> company
>>>>> tried to rip me off.
>>>>
>>>> Find a more reputable company!
>>>
>>> Once you have a particular panel you no longer have that choice. Must
>>> buy at
>>> the company store.
>>
>> And, once you settle on a particular GFCI style, you no longer have that
>> choice.
>>
>> Until you settle on a *different* GFCI style! :>
>
> Luckily my wife is oblivious to that sort of technical stuff.
SWMBO was -- until she wasn't.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-16 08:01 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <eivnl9FgafjU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #451994 |
On 2017-03-15 12:52, Don Y wrote:
> On 3/13/2017 11:19 AM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-03-12 12:16, Don Y wrote:
>>> On 3/12/2017 8:16 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>
>>>>>> Square, round, who cares?
>>>>>
>>>>> When the other outlets nearby are one style, it's tacky to have a
>>>>> *different* style nearby. Also, covers for "in use" protection
>>>>> suit one or the other style. And, you tend to have a larger range
>>>>> of "quality" available in the "round" style (at a more affordable
>>>>> price). Finally, you aren't at the whim of the EXISTING WIRING
>>>>> in determining where to site the GFCI outlet which MUST be at the
>>>>> furthest upstream outlet on the branch circuit being protected
>>>>> (annoying if you're forced to locate the "master outlet" in a
>>>>> spot that is less accessible than you'd want; or, that is
>>>>> glaringly different, cosmetically, than the outlets 24 inches
>>>>> away on each side.)
>>>>
>>>> In Germany they sometimes had a GFI at the entrance of a room, usually
>>>> above
>>>> the door. That was really practical. I like protection devices to be
>>>> local and
>>>> accessible right where the action is, just like it is on aircraft.
>>>
>>> AFAICT, you're not living in Germany, now (?).
>>
>> No but I have lived there and in other countries. I makes sense to
>> learn from
>> others and adopt methods that work as long as legal in the new
>> jurisdiction.
>
> In the US, a GFCI *receptacle* can't be the sole protection on a circuit.
> So, you still have to have a breaker somewhere -- ELSE.
>
> Now, when your GFCI protected circuit is "dead", you have to look in
> two places to see which device interrupted the current flow.
>
A trip is nearly always a ground fault. In about 20 years didn't have a
circuit breaker trip for overcurrent or a short. The first couple of
trips after buying the house were because I came from Europe and had to
get used to the fact that US power circuits only deliver half the watts.
We did have ground fault trips. Then there is the cost.
Breaker with integrated GFCI: $50.
Normal breaker plus GFCI outlet: $5 plus $10, and you get a free outlet.
>>>>>> Aside from an order of
>>>>>> magnitude lower cost while affording the same protection the GFCI
>>>>>> outlet is
>>>>>> where the action is and not at the end of some dark hallway. So if
>>>>>> someone
>>>>>> plugs in a device and it goes click .. lights out .. they know what
>>>>>> happened.
>>>>>> They can reset it right there.
>>>>>
>>>>> In 20 years, the only time we've tripped a GFCI has been when the
>>>>> receptacle
>>>>> end of an extension cord plugged into an outdoor outlet was lying in a
>>>>> puddle of water adjacent to the outlet. Took multiple attempts to
>>>>> determine this
>>>>> to be the cause (because ANOTHER cord was plugged into another outlet
>>>>> on that same branch circuit with the same condition some 40 feet
>>>>> distant!)
>>>>> It was nice to know I wouldn't have my feet in that water as I
>>>>> "reset" the
>>>>> circuit!
>>>>>
>>>>> If the GFCI trips, I *know* where it is located (in the load
>>>>> center). I
>>>>> don't have to wander into the *other* bathroom to reset a fault in
>>>>> THIS
>>>>> bathroom.
>>>>
>>>> One shall not protect a bathroom with a device in another room. That's
>>>> bad layout.
>>>
>>> Most homes of this vintage have a single circuit feeding two or more
>>> bathrooms (because the lighting circuit there isn't GFCI). Especially
>>> true when multiple bathrooms tend to share a wet wall -- the electric
>>> outlets in each bathroom will tend to be as closely sited as the water
>>> closets!
>>
>> Not a good design and luckily not done that way in our 1970 house.
>
> In our 1980 house, that's the way it is. The same was true of the 1950
> home
> that I grew up in.
>
> It's only recent construction that has opted to put more branch circuits
> in place in rooms other than the kitchen.
>
My wife was house hunting and I was the QC guy. There were several red
flags I watched out for. If the glasses in a hutch clinked when I jumped
a bit in the center of a room that was one. If I found too few breakers
for the number of rooms that was another. I really do not like it when
my wife uses the hair dryer, I turn on the shop vac or printer and then
a breaker clicks off.
This might have to do with the fact that I lived in Europe before and
the adjustment to the typical US circuit size was sobering. Almost
everything is bigger in the US but not electrical circuits. In Europe we
had over 3600W per circuit so running the vaccuum plus laser printing
was no problem. Here all we get is 1800W on most and 2400W on the few
20A circuits. Which really puts a crimp into my home brewing activities.
>>> And, demand for power from a receptacle in a bathroom is sporadic and
>>> typically not excessive. E.g., a 20A circuit can handle the two hair
>>> dryers
>>> that *might* be in use simultaneously.
>>
>> Unless you have teenage daughters :-)
>
> We can run hairdryers in both bathrooms without a problem. I can put 4
> electric frying pans in use along with the 1KW microwave/broiler oven,
> dishwasher, garbage disposal, exhaust fan, electric oven, etc. without
> tripping a breaker.
>
Then I would seriously question the health of that breaker and thus your
safety, even if this is a 20A circuit. I doubt that all this combined is
under 2400W.
> The only time we've tripped a breaker has been with an outdoor GFCI
> feeding XMAS lights via extension cords strung across the yard lying
> in puddles of water or following the cords down the wires to bring water
> into the cord outlets.
>
Reminds me of Clark Griswold :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inWKw8nqQlI
>>>>> Or, wander around the exterior of the house looking to see which
>>>>> of the outdoor outlets has the GFCI installed, therein (ditto for the
>>>>> garage:
>>>>> "Is it behind THIS pile of stuff? or the NEXT pile?"). It's
>>>>> easier for
>>>>> SWMBO
>>>>> to KNOW that a "blown circuit" (for whatever reason, whatever
>>>>> circuit) is
>>>>> handled in the load center instead of forcing her to remember which
>>>>> circuits
>>>>> are protected by GFCI's (IN SERIES WITH CIRCUIT BREAKERS) and which
>>>>> are
>>>>> protected by *just* circuit breakers.
>>>>
>>>> That all becomes a pain when, like happened to me, you have a
>>>> thunderstorm and
>>>> ... THWOCK ... lights out. Now where is a flashlight in this building?
>>>> Where
>>>> could the breaker panel be? Basement? Which room in the basement? Or
>>>> is there a
>>>> subpanel on another floor? Maybe on this floor?
>>>
>>> And the GFCI is vulnerable to thunderstorms? Can you reset it when the
>>> power has *failed*?
>>
>> Yes on both.
>
> GFCI trips during thunderstorm? Sounds like a shitty GFCI.
>
> <http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=153998>
>
Nope. As one poster in this links wrote, quote "Remember that a GFCI has
a 5ma sensitivity and you may have just the right circumstances to trip
the GFCI during a lightning storm".
You can get a lot more ground current that even trips a staunch breaker.
IIRC the ones I saw tripping had 30mA or so.
I had the same happen in the Caribbean but the outlets were right in the
rooms, I heard the telltale "clack" and knew what to do. Fairly new US
name brand outlets, the good stuff. It all depends on the ferociousness
and closeness of the lightning effects.
>>> We have (tiny) flashlights by each bedside and work area. Along with
>>> "nightlights" in the public spaces that we leave on when entertaining
>>> overnight guests -- acknowledging they probably won't be familiar
>>> with the house layout to navigate it in the dark.
>>
>> So do we but there's other lights along the way which stay on because
>> GFCI is
>> only local.
>
> Our GFCI circuits protect places where required by code:
> - garage
> - kitchen
> - wet areas
> etc.
>
> Usually, there are other circuits serving the same physical areas that
> are on different breakers entirely (cuz our GFCI protection is done at the
> load center so you *know* a circuit is GFCI or non-GFCI, by definition).
If they are labeled. Most house don't have labels. I had to do a lot of
Sherlock Holmes when moving in here.
> Kitchen lighting is separate from counter circuits. Ditto bathroom
> lighting, garage lighting, outdoor lighting (our fixtures above 8ft).
>
> But, power can still "fail", regardless of a local fault. Hence the
> availability of flashlights throughout the house.
>
> And, assuming power to be available, having "night lights" for guests
> so they can navigate the house without having to "turn on" any
> lights (we can illuminate the entire house with a "soft glow" that
> is only noticeable when your eyes have acclimated to the dark (too
> dim to notice otherwise)
>
We have that as well but it is still more practical to have the GFCI local.
>>>>> If you enjoy the convenience of having the ability to reset a blown
>>>>> breaker
>>>>> AT the receptacle, why not put a GFCI on EACH branch circuit? ("Gee,
>>>>> which
>>>>> bedroom has the GFCI for *this* bedroom's outlets?")
>>>>
>>>> One per room suffices. Normally you even hear the click. Ah, over
>>>> there!
>>>
>>> Most (older) homes spread branch circuits over multiple rooms. E.g., a
>>> lighting circuit may cover three or four rooms. Ditto for outlets.
>>> Multiple GFCI's on a single branch circuit tend to be problematic.
>>
>> Then the builders have cut corners.
>
> Do you have a separate receptacle circuit for each room in your house?
Yes.
> Living room, dining room, family room, hallways, each bedroom, each
> bathroom (GFCI), garage, etc.? *And* different lighting circuits (so
> you don't lose ALL power in a room when a breaker fails)?
>
Some have the lighting separate but not the smaller bedrooms and bathrooms.
> We have dedicated circuits for ACbrrr, oven, swamp cooler, refrigerator,
> dryer,
> furnace and the 5 GFCI circuits (kitchen/bath/outdoor/garage). The
> bedrooms are distributed on 3 different circuits -- mixing outlets and
> lighting
> in a way that ensures one or the other is available in each room as long as
> no more than one of these breakers are tripped. Living/dining share a
> lighting circuit as do kitchen/family room. A total of 29 circuits (I
> think
> the load center can support 30) for a "modest" 3BR home.
>
Hah! Ours got 31 8-)
Also 3BR.
>>>>>>> We opted for GFCI breakers instead of relying on the outlets with
>>>>>>> daisy-chained
>>>>>>> (often shitty back-stabbed connections!) support for downstream
>>>>>>> outlets.
>>>>>>> Having friends in the business made them much more affordable (when
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> buying thousands of devices each year, it behooves their
>>>>>>> suppliers to
>>>>>>> cut
>>>>>>> them a good deal!)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bathrooms, garage, outdoors, kitchen, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some folks don't have "friends in the business" and $50 a pop is
>>>>>> outrageous. I
>>>>>> don't mind paying for good quality merchandise but I do mind when a
>>>>>> company
>>>>>> tried to rip me off.
>>>>>
>>>>> Find a more reputable company!
>>>>
>>>> Once you have a particular panel you no longer have that choice. Must
>>>> buy at
>>>> the company store.
>>>
>>> And, once you settle on a particular GFCI style, you no longer have that
>>> choice.
>>>
>>> Until you settle on a *different* GFCI style! :>
>>
>> Luckily my wife is oblivious to that sort of technical stuff.
>
> SWMBO was -- until she wasn't.
>
Mine came around in the other direction, thinking a bit more utilitarian
WRT those sort of details.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | tabbypurr@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-16 10:19 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <b7d482b0-6d89-439f-9bf1-3b348dfa4dce@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #452111 |
On Thursday, 16 March 2017 15:01:04 UTC, Joerg wrote: > On 2017-03-15 12:52, Don Y wrote: > > On 3/13/2017 11:19 AM, Joerg wrote: > >> On 2017-03-12 12:16, Don Y wrote: > >>> On 3/12/2017 8:16 AM, Joerg wrote: > A trip is nearly always a ground fault. In about 20 years didn't have a > circuit breaker trip for overcurrent or a short. The first couple of > trips after buying the house were because I came from Europe and had to > get used to the fact that US power circuits only deliver half the watts. > We did have ground fault trips. Then there is the cost. > > Breaker with integrated GFCI: $50. > > Normal breaker plus GFCI outlet: $5 plus $10, and you get a free outlet. both seem a bit steep > >>> Most homes of this vintage have a single circuit feeding two or more > >>> bathrooms (because the lighting circuit there isn't GFCI). Especially > >>> true when multiple bathrooms tend to share a wet wall -- the electric > >>> outlets in each bathroom will tend to be as closely sited as the water > >>> closets! > >> > >> Not a good design and luckily not done that way in our 1970 house. > > > > In our 1980 house, that's the way it is. The same was true of the 1950 > > home > > that I grew up in. Almost all houses here have breakers feed several rooms. I've not found it to be a problem. > > It's only recent construction that has opted to put more branch circuits > > in place in rooms other than the kitchen. radial circuits however are a safety issue. > My wife was house hunting and I was the QC guy. There were several red > flags I watched out for. If the glasses in a hutch clinked when I jumped > a bit in the center of a room that was one. If I found too few breakers > for the number of rooms that was another. I take it you've not spent time in the uk. Some houses shake if you jump on the floor. Lots of houses & flats still run on 4 fuses total, no GFCI. > I really do not like it when > my wife uses the hair dryer, I turn on the shop vac or printer and then > a breaker clicks off. > > This might have to do with the fact that I lived in Europe before and > the adjustment to the typical US circuit size was sobering. Almost > everything is bigger in the US but not electrical circuits. In Europe we > had over 3600W per circuit so running the vaccuum plus laser printing > was no problem. Here all we get is 1800W on most and 2400W on the few > 20A circuits. Which really puts a crimp into my home brewing activities. A tyipcal socket circuit here has a 32A breaker providing 7.68kW continuous, and much more short term. It's common to run 45 or 50A short term as multiple appliances heat simultaneously. NT
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-03-16 10:37 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ej00pvFi7skU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #452144 |
On 2017-03-16 10:19, tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote: > On Thursday, 16 March 2017 15:01:04 UTC, Joerg wrote: >> On 2017-03-15 12:52, Don Y wrote: >>> On 3/13/2017 11:19 AM, Joerg wrote: >>>> On 2017-03-12 12:16, Don Y wrote: >>>>> On 3/12/2017 8:16 AM, Joerg wrote: > >> A trip is nearly always a ground fault. In about 20 years didn't >> have a circuit breaker trip for overcurrent or a short. The first >> couple of trips after buying the house were because I came from >> Europe and had to get used to the fact that US power circuits only >> deliver half the watts. We did have ground fault trips. Then there >> is the cost. >> >> Breaker with integrated GFCI: $50. >> >> Normal breaker plus GFCI outlet: $5 plus $10, and you get a free >> outlet. > > both seem a bit steep > GFCI outlets used to be around $5. "There is no inflation, trust us". Yeah, right. The breakers with integrated GFCI are a rip-off IMHO. The clerk at the store used to be an electrician and when I said I rather use a regular breaker and GFCI outlet he smiled and nodded knowingly. > >>>>> Most homes of this vintage have a single circuit feeding two >>>>> or more bathrooms (because the lighting circuit there isn't >>>>> GFCI). Especially true when multiple bathrooms tend to share >>>>> a wet wall -- the electric outlets in each bathroom will tend >>>>> to be as closely sited as the water closets! >>>> >>>> Not a good design and luckily not done that way in our 1970 >>>> house. >>> >>> In our 1980 house, that's the way it is. The same was true of >>> the 1950 home that I grew up in. > > Almost all houses here have breakers feed several rooms. I've not > found it to be a problem. > Until someone turns a bedroom into an office. >>> It's only recent construction that has opted to put more branch >>> circuits in place in rooms other than the kitchen. > > radial circuits however are a safety issue. > Why? >> My wife was house hunting and I was the QC guy. There were several >> red flags I watched out for. If the glasses in a hutch clinked when >> I jumped a bit in the center of a room that was one. If I found too >> few breakers for the number of rooms that was another. > > I take it you've not spent time in the uk. Some houses shake if you > jump on the floor. Lots of houses & flats still run on 4 fuses total, > no GFCI. > I lived on the upper floor of a free-standing house near Aberdeen for a short while. That house had solid granite blocks as outer walls and was the sturdies place I ever lived in. The neighboring homes were built that way as well. IIRC each outlet had its own little fuse of 13A or so locally. >> I really do not like it when my wife uses the hair dryer, I turn on >> the shop vac or printer and then a breaker clicks off. >> >> This might have to do with the fact that I lived in Europe before >> and the adjustment to the typical US circuit size was sobering. >> Almost everything is bigger in the US but not electrical circuits. >> In Europe we had over 3600W per circuit so running the vaccuum plus >> laser printing was no problem. Here all we get is 1800W on most and >> 2400W on the few 20A circuits. Which really puts a crimp into my >> home brewing activities. > > A tyipcal socket circuit here has a 32A breaker providing 7.68kW > continuous, and much more short term. It's common to run 45 or 50A > short term as multiple appliances heat simultaneously. > 32A is even better though in the UK each regular socket is limited to 13A while in Germany that is 16A: http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/guides-and-advice/electrical-items/amps-and-watts/ In the US you can have a NEMA outlet for 240V/20A but that's a custom installation. Except in the garage in newer homes where a 240V/30A outlet is often required to enable the use of electric vehicles. Unfortunately I can't do my home brewing in the garage because there is no sink and it's too hot there in summer and too cold in winter. And there is no pool table :-) -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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