Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]
Groups > sci.electronics.design > #451484
| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | sci.electronics.design |
| Subject | Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility |
| Date | 2017-03-12 08:16 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <eil739Fd6aqU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink) |
| References | (3 earlier) <oa1p57$nb2$1@dont-email.me> <eijhbpF3douU1@mid.individual.net> <oa247j$tqu$1@dont-email.me> <eil31iFccf2U1@mid.individual.net> <oa3nj6$7fm$1@dont-email.me> |
On 2017-03-12 07:59, Don Y wrote:
> On 3/12/2017 7:07 AM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-03-11 16:22, Don Y wrote:
>>> On 3/11/2017 5:00 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>>>> No GFCI but I may add a GFCI outlet externally for some circuits and
>>>>>> run them
>>>>>> off of those. Even if not required by code.
>>>>>
>>>>> Consider AFCI, instead.
>>>>
>>>> Just came back from the HW store and luckily the guy at the electical
>>>> aisle was
>>>> a former electrician. He said the new Murray breakers fit the panel
>>>> and (so
>>>> far) they do. I looked at GFCI and got sticker shock. $50 (fifty!) a
>>>> pop.
>>>> Yikes. If I want GF protection I'll just come off with a stub into a
>>>> GFCI
>>>> outlet and then on from there. It's now all 15A, was 20A but the
>>>> <expletive
>>>> censored> dude who built this panel chose to use 14AWG wire on a 30A
>>>> (!) breaker.
>>>
>>> The GFCI *outlets* don't seem to hold up, well. There are also
>>> cosmetic issues ("Why does this outlet have two little buttons?"
>>> or "Why is this outlet SQUARE while these others are ROUNDED?"
>>
>> Here they do hold up.
>
> I've been called on to replace several for friends/neighbors.
I try to avoid those kinds of calls. "No, I am more into electronics".
> Particularly outdoor installations (water/moisture/critters
> foul the mechanism).
>
The trick is to have that one outlet covered and at the most be a
convenience outlet. One that is only used if you have to work on
equipment nearby and need more than a Li-Ion drill.
> I've replaced some of the "standard" outlets on our GFCI branch circuits
> over the years simply because they've seen too much wear (kitchen counter
> circuits and outdoor circuits see lots of plug insertion events).
>
Par for the course in a kitchen. Though more and more I use battery
tools there. Like Friday. Whenever I make beer and rack off from primary
we use the trub, the "yeast cake" in the bottom of the fermenter that
many brewer just dump. After harvesting some of the yeast it becomes a
bread starter. Later when mixing the dough I use a powerful Li-Ion
drill. A kitchen mixer would not stand a chance with this tough stuff.
After rising enough we bake it outdoors in the Weber barbecue. If I am
involved in cooking it's all wood or charcoal, no kitchen.
>> Square, round, who cares?
>
> When the other outlets nearby are one style, it's tacky to have a
> *different* style nearby. Also, covers for "in use" protection
> suit one or the other style. And, you tend to have a larger range
> of "quality" available in the "round" style (at a more affordable
> price). Finally, you aren't at the whim of the EXISTING WIRING
> in determining where to site the GFCI outlet which MUST be at the
> furthest upstream outlet on the branch circuit being protected
> (annoying if you're forced to locate the "master outlet" in a
> spot that is less accessible than you'd want; or, that is
> glaringly different, cosmetically, than the outlets 24 inches
> away on each side.)
>
In Germany they sometimes had a GFI at the entrance of a room, usually
above the door. That was really practical. I like protection devices to
be local and accessible right where the action is, just like it is on
aircraft.
>> Aside from an order of
>> magnitude lower cost while affording the same protection the GFCI
>> outlet is
>> where the action is and not at the end of some dark hallway. So if
>> someone
>> plugs in a device and it goes click .. lights out .. they know what
>> happened.
>> They can reset it right there.
>
> In 20 years, the only time we've tripped a GFCI has been when the
> receptacle
> end of an extension cord plugged into an outdoor outlet was lying in a
> puddle of water adjacent to the outlet. Took multiple attempts to
> determine this
> to be the cause (because ANOTHER cord was plugged into another outlet
> on that same branch circuit with the same condition some 40 feet distant!)
> It was nice to know I wouldn't have my feet in that water as I "reset" the
> circuit!
>
> If the GFCI trips, I *know* where it is located (in the load center). I
> don't have to wander into the *other* bathroom to reset a fault in THIS
> bathroom.
One shall not protect a bathroom with a device in another room. That's
bad layout.
> Or, wander around the exterior of the house looking to see which
> of the outdoor outlets has the GFCI installed, therein (ditto for the
> garage:
> "Is it behind THIS pile of stuff? or the NEXT pile?"). It's easier for
> SWMBO
> to KNOW that a "blown circuit" (for whatever reason, whatever circuit) is
> handled in the load center instead of forcing her to remember which
> circuits
> are protected by GFCI's (IN SERIES WITH CIRCUIT BREAKERS) and which are
> protected by *just* circuit breakers.
>
That all becomes a pain when, like happened to me, you have a
thunderstorm and ... THWOCK ... lights out. Now where is a flashlight in
this building? Where could the breaker panel be? Basement? Which room in
the basement? Or is there a subpanel on another floor? Maybe on this floor?
> If you enjoy the convenience of having the ability to reset a blown breaker
> AT the receptacle, why not put a GFCI on EACH branch circuit? ("Gee, which
> bedroom has the GFCI for *this* bedroom's outlets?")
>
One per room suffices. Normally you even hear the click. Ah, over there!
>> An electrician told me that is is quite common that people opt for the
>> outlet
>> instead of the breaker. He couldn't understand the high prices either.
>
> It's common because its easier to replace (install) a receptacle than a
> breaker. The cost difference is undoubtedly related to differences in
> manufacturing quantity.
>
>>> We opted for GFCI breakers instead of relying on the outlets with
>>> daisy-chained
>>> (often shitty back-stabbed connections!) support for downstream outlets.
>>> Having friends in the business made them much more affordable (when they
>>> are
>>> buying thousands of devices each year, it behooves their suppliers to
>>> cut
>>> them a good deal!)
>>>
>>> Bathrooms, garage, outdoors, kitchen, etc.
>>
>> Some folks don't have "friends in the business" and $50 a pop is
>> outrageous. I
>> don't mind paying for good quality merchandise but I do mind when a
>> company
>> tried to rip me off.
>
> Find a more reputable company!
Once you have a particular panel you no longer have that choice. Must
buy at the company store.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Back to sci.electronics.design | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread
Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-11 11:53 -0800
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-03-11 13:03 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-11 12:31 -0800
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-11 18:36 -0800
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-12 07:10 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-11 13:09 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-11 12:34 -0800
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-11 14:13 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-11 16:00 -0800
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-11 17:22 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-11 21:40 -0500
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-12 07:07 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-12 07:59 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-12 08:16 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-12 12:16 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-13 11:19 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-15 12:52 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-16 08:01 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-16 10:19 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-16 10:37 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-16 16:12 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-16 16:33 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-16 20:15 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-12 20:43 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-13 02:05 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-13 21:33 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-14 06:38 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-14 12:47 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-14 12:00 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-14 20:44 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-15 05:53 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-15 12:53 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility kevin93 <kevin@whitedigs.com> - 2017-03-15 15:11 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-15 16:34 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-15 20:38 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-16 08:03 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-16 20:36 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-17 16:54 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-17 22:35 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-18 07:42 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-18 10:47 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-03-14 05:12 +0000
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-14 12:48 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-13 11:20 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-12 20:39 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-03-13 16:53 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-13 17:13 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-14 08:06 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-12 20:36 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-13 11:54 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-11 13:27 -0800
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-11 16:02 -0800
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-11 16:33 -0800
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-12 07:14 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-12 11:38 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-13 15:49 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-14 06:40 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-14 07:59 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-14 12:51 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-14 11:57 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-14 14:01 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-14 14:21 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-14 16:59 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> - 2017-03-16 00:50 +1100
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-15 07:26 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-15 11:17 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-15 16:31 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-15 16:59 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-15 19:06 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> - 2017-03-16 23:26 +1100
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-16 10:12 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-14 20:47 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-14 20:47 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-16 08:06 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> - 2017-03-17 16:29 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-17 22:39 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 01:52 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-18 09:45 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 07:37 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-18 10:48 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 09:18 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-18 14:13 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 13:20 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-18 20:00 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 18:40 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-18 22:17 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> - 2017-03-19 12:14 -0400
) Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2017-03-12 01:12 -0500
Re: ) tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-12 03:51 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.really> - 2017-03-11 14:27 -0600
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-11 12:38 -0800
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> - 2017-03-12 23:57 +1100
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-12 07:17 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2017-03-11 20:14 -0600
csiph-web