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Groups > sci.electronics.design > #452111
| From | Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | sci.electronics.design |
| Subject | Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility |
| Date | 2017-03-16 08:01 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <eivnl9FgafjU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink) |
| References | (7 earlier) <oa3nj6$7fm$1@dont-email.me> <eil739Fd6aqU1@mid.individual.net> <oa46l3$t1b$1@dont-email.me> <eio65pF11dfU1@mid.individual.net> <oac5t5$svd$1@dont-email.me> |
On 2017-03-15 12:52, Don Y wrote:
> On 3/13/2017 11:19 AM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-03-12 12:16, Don Y wrote:
>>> On 3/12/2017 8:16 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>
>>>>>> Square, round, who cares?
>>>>>
>>>>> When the other outlets nearby are one style, it's tacky to have a
>>>>> *different* style nearby. Also, covers for "in use" protection
>>>>> suit one or the other style. And, you tend to have a larger range
>>>>> of "quality" available in the "round" style (at a more affordable
>>>>> price). Finally, you aren't at the whim of the EXISTING WIRING
>>>>> in determining where to site the GFCI outlet which MUST be at the
>>>>> furthest upstream outlet on the branch circuit being protected
>>>>> (annoying if you're forced to locate the "master outlet" in a
>>>>> spot that is less accessible than you'd want; or, that is
>>>>> glaringly different, cosmetically, than the outlets 24 inches
>>>>> away on each side.)
>>>>
>>>> In Germany they sometimes had a GFI at the entrance of a room, usually
>>>> above
>>>> the door. That was really practical. I like protection devices to be
>>>> local and
>>>> accessible right where the action is, just like it is on aircraft.
>>>
>>> AFAICT, you're not living in Germany, now (?).
>>
>> No but I have lived there and in other countries. I makes sense to
>> learn from
>> others and adopt methods that work as long as legal in the new
>> jurisdiction.
>
> In the US, a GFCI *receptacle* can't be the sole protection on a circuit.
> So, you still have to have a breaker somewhere -- ELSE.
>
> Now, when your GFCI protected circuit is "dead", you have to look in
> two places to see which device interrupted the current flow.
>
A trip is nearly always a ground fault. In about 20 years didn't have a
circuit breaker trip for overcurrent or a short. The first couple of
trips after buying the house were because I came from Europe and had to
get used to the fact that US power circuits only deliver half the watts.
We did have ground fault trips. Then there is the cost.
Breaker with integrated GFCI: $50.
Normal breaker plus GFCI outlet: $5 plus $10, and you get a free outlet.
>>>>>> Aside from an order of
>>>>>> magnitude lower cost while affording the same protection the GFCI
>>>>>> outlet is
>>>>>> where the action is and not at the end of some dark hallway. So if
>>>>>> someone
>>>>>> plugs in a device and it goes click .. lights out .. they know what
>>>>>> happened.
>>>>>> They can reset it right there.
>>>>>
>>>>> In 20 years, the only time we've tripped a GFCI has been when the
>>>>> receptacle
>>>>> end of an extension cord plugged into an outdoor outlet was lying in a
>>>>> puddle of water adjacent to the outlet. Took multiple attempts to
>>>>> determine this
>>>>> to be the cause (because ANOTHER cord was plugged into another outlet
>>>>> on that same branch circuit with the same condition some 40 feet
>>>>> distant!)
>>>>> It was nice to know I wouldn't have my feet in that water as I
>>>>> "reset" the
>>>>> circuit!
>>>>>
>>>>> If the GFCI trips, I *know* where it is located (in the load
>>>>> center). I
>>>>> don't have to wander into the *other* bathroom to reset a fault in
>>>>> THIS
>>>>> bathroom.
>>>>
>>>> One shall not protect a bathroom with a device in another room. That's
>>>> bad layout.
>>>
>>> Most homes of this vintage have a single circuit feeding two or more
>>> bathrooms (because the lighting circuit there isn't GFCI). Especially
>>> true when multiple bathrooms tend to share a wet wall -- the electric
>>> outlets in each bathroom will tend to be as closely sited as the water
>>> closets!
>>
>> Not a good design and luckily not done that way in our 1970 house.
>
> In our 1980 house, that's the way it is. The same was true of the 1950
> home
> that I grew up in.
>
> It's only recent construction that has opted to put more branch circuits
> in place in rooms other than the kitchen.
>
My wife was house hunting and I was the QC guy. There were several red
flags I watched out for. If the glasses in a hutch clinked when I jumped
a bit in the center of a room that was one. If I found too few breakers
for the number of rooms that was another. I really do not like it when
my wife uses the hair dryer, I turn on the shop vac or printer and then
a breaker clicks off.
This might have to do with the fact that I lived in Europe before and
the adjustment to the typical US circuit size was sobering. Almost
everything is bigger in the US but not electrical circuits. In Europe we
had over 3600W per circuit so running the vaccuum plus laser printing
was no problem. Here all we get is 1800W on most and 2400W on the few
20A circuits. Which really puts a crimp into my home brewing activities.
>>> And, demand for power from a receptacle in a bathroom is sporadic and
>>> typically not excessive. E.g., a 20A circuit can handle the two hair
>>> dryers
>>> that *might* be in use simultaneously.
>>
>> Unless you have teenage daughters :-)
>
> We can run hairdryers in both bathrooms without a problem. I can put 4
> electric frying pans in use along with the 1KW microwave/broiler oven,
> dishwasher, garbage disposal, exhaust fan, electric oven, etc. without
> tripping a breaker.
>
Then I would seriously question the health of that breaker and thus your
safety, even if this is a 20A circuit. I doubt that all this combined is
under 2400W.
> The only time we've tripped a breaker has been with an outdoor GFCI
> feeding XMAS lights via extension cords strung across the yard lying
> in puddles of water or following the cords down the wires to bring water
> into the cord outlets.
>
Reminds me of Clark Griswold :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inWKw8nqQlI
>>>>> Or, wander around the exterior of the house looking to see which
>>>>> of the outdoor outlets has the GFCI installed, therein (ditto for the
>>>>> garage:
>>>>> "Is it behind THIS pile of stuff? or the NEXT pile?"). It's
>>>>> easier for
>>>>> SWMBO
>>>>> to KNOW that a "blown circuit" (for whatever reason, whatever
>>>>> circuit) is
>>>>> handled in the load center instead of forcing her to remember which
>>>>> circuits
>>>>> are protected by GFCI's (IN SERIES WITH CIRCUIT BREAKERS) and which
>>>>> are
>>>>> protected by *just* circuit breakers.
>>>>
>>>> That all becomes a pain when, like happened to me, you have a
>>>> thunderstorm and
>>>> ... THWOCK ... lights out. Now where is a flashlight in this building?
>>>> Where
>>>> could the breaker panel be? Basement? Which room in the basement? Or
>>>> is there a
>>>> subpanel on another floor? Maybe on this floor?
>>>
>>> And the GFCI is vulnerable to thunderstorms? Can you reset it when the
>>> power has *failed*?
>>
>> Yes on both.
>
> GFCI trips during thunderstorm? Sounds like a shitty GFCI.
>
> <http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=153998>
>
Nope. As one poster in this links wrote, quote "Remember that a GFCI has
a 5ma sensitivity and you may have just the right circumstances to trip
the GFCI during a lightning storm".
You can get a lot more ground current that even trips a staunch breaker.
IIRC the ones I saw tripping had 30mA or so.
I had the same happen in the Caribbean but the outlets were right in the
rooms, I heard the telltale "clack" and knew what to do. Fairly new US
name brand outlets, the good stuff. It all depends on the ferociousness
and closeness of the lightning effects.
>>> We have (tiny) flashlights by each bedside and work area. Along with
>>> "nightlights" in the public spaces that we leave on when entertaining
>>> overnight guests -- acknowledging they probably won't be familiar
>>> with the house layout to navigate it in the dark.
>>
>> So do we but there's other lights along the way which stay on because
>> GFCI is
>> only local.
>
> Our GFCI circuits protect places where required by code:
> - garage
> - kitchen
> - wet areas
> etc.
>
> Usually, there are other circuits serving the same physical areas that
> are on different breakers entirely (cuz our GFCI protection is done at the
> load center so you *know* a circuit is GFCI or non-GFCI, by definition).
If they are labeled. Most house don't have labels. I had to do a lot of
Sherlock Holmes when moving in here.
> Kitchen lighting is separate from counter circuits. Ditto bathroom
> lighting, garage lighting, outdoor lighting (our fixtures above 8ft).
>
> But, power can still "fail", regardless of a local fault. Hence the
> availability of flashlights throughout the house.
>
> And, assuming power to be available, having "night lights" for guests
> so they can navigate the house without having to "turn on" any
> lights (we can illuminate the entire house with a "soft glow" that
> is only noticeable when your eyes have acclimated to the dark (too
> dim to notice otherwise)
>
We have that as well but it is still more practical to have the GFCI local.
>>>>> If you enjoy the convenience of having the ability to reset a blown
>>>>> breaker
>>>>> AT the receptacle, why not put a GFCI on EACH branch circuit? ("Gee,
>>>>> which
>>>>> bedroom has the GFCI for *this* bedroom's outlets?")
>>>>
>>>> One per room suffices. Normally you even hear the click. Ah, over
>>>> there!
>>>
>>> Most (older) homes spread branch circuits over multiple rooms. E.g., a
>>> lighting circuit may cover three or four rooms. Ditto for outlets.
>>> Multiple GFCI's on a single branch circuit tend to be problematic.
>>
>> Then the builders have cut corners.
>
> Do you have a separate receptacle circuit for each room in your house?
Yes.
> Living room, dining room, family room, hallways, each bedroom, each
> bathroom (GFCI), garage, etc.? *And* different lighting circuits (so
> you don't lose ALL power in a room when a breaker fails)?
>
Some have the lighting separate but not the smaller bedrooms and bathrooms.
> We have dedicated circuits for ACbrrr, oven, swamp cooler, refrigerator,
> dryer,
> furnace and the 5 GFCI circuits (kitchen/bath/outdoor/garage). The
> bedrooms are distributed on 3 different circuits -- mixing outlets and
> lighting
> in a way that ensures one or the other is available in each room as long as
> no more than one of these breakers are tripped. Living/dining share a
> lighting circuit as do kitchen/family room. A total of 29 circuits (I
> think
> the load center can support 30) for a "modest" 3BR home.
>
Hah! Ours got 31 8-)
Also 3BR.
>>>>>>> We opted for GFCI breakers instead of relying on the outlets with
>>>>>>> daisy-chained
>>>>>>> (often shitty back-stabbed connections!) support for downstream
>>>>>>> outlets.
>>>>>>> Having friends in the business made them much more affordable (when
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> buying thousands of devices each year, it behooves their
>>>>>>> suppliers to
>>>>>>> cut
>>>>>>> them a good deal!)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bathrooms, garage, outdoors, kitchen, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some folks don't have "friends in the business" and $50 a pop is
>>>>>> outrageous. I
>>>>>> don't mind paying for good quality merchandise but I do mind when a
>>>>>> company
>>>>>> tried to rip me off.
>>>>>
>>>>> Find a more reputable company!
>>>>
>>>> Once you have a particular panel you no longer have that choice. Must
>>>> buy at
>>>> the company store.
>>>
>>> And, once you settle on a particular GFCI style, you no longer have that
>>> choice.
>>>
>>> Until you settle on a *different* GFCI style! :>
>>
>> Luckily my wife is oblivious to that sort of technical stuff.
>
> SWMBO was -- until she wasn't.
>
Mine came around in the other direction, thinking a bit more utilitarian
WRT those sort of details.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Back to sci.electronics.design | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread
Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-11 11:53 -0800
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-03-11 13:03 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-11 12:31 -0800
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-11 18:36 -0800
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-12 07:10 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-11 13:09 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-11 12:34 -0800
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-11 14:13 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-11 16:00 -0800
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-11 17:22 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-11 21:40 -0500
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-12 07:07 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-12 07:59 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-12 08:16 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-12 12:16 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-13 11:19 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-15 12:52 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-16 08:01 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-16 10:19 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-16 10:37 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-16 16:12 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-16 16:33 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-16 20:15 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-12 20:43 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-13 02:05 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-13 21:33 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-14 06:38 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-14 12:47 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-14 12:00 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-14 20:44 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-15 05:53 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-15 12:53 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility kevin93 <kevin@whitedigs.com> - 2017-03-15 15:11 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-15 16:34 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-15 20:38 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-16 08:03 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-16 20:36 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-17 16:54 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-17 22:35 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-18 07:42 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-18 10:47 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-03-14 05:12 +0000
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-14 12:48 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-13 11:20 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-12 20:39 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-03-13 16:53 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-13 17:13 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-14 08:06 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-12 20:36 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-13 11:54 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-11 13:27 -0800
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-11 16:02 -0800
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-11 16:33 -0800
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-12 07:14 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-12 11:38 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-13 15:49 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-14 06:40 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-14 07:59 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-14 12:51 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-14 11:57 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-14 14:01 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-14 14:21 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-14 16:59 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> - 2017-03-16 00:50 +1100
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-15 07:26 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-15 11:17 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-15 16:31 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-15 16:59 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-15 19:06 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> - 2017-03-16 23:26 +1100
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-16 10:12 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-14 20:47 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-14 20:47 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-16 08:06 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> - 2017-03-17 16:29 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-17 22:39 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 01:52 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-18 09:45 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 07:37 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-18 10:48 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 09:18 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-18 14:13 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 13:20 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-18 20:00 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 18:40 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-18 22:17 -0400
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> - 2017-03-19 12:14 -0400
) Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2017-03-12 01:12 -0500
Re: ) tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-12 03:51 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.really> - 2017-03-11 14:27 -0600
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-11 12:38 -0800
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> - 2017-03-12 23:57 +1100
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-12 07:17 -0700
Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2017-03-11 20:14 -0600
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