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Groups > sci.electronics.design > #451479

Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility

From Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>
Newsgroups sci.electronics.design
Subject Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility
Date 2017-03-12 07:59 -0700
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <oa3nj6$7fm$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (2 earlier) <eij5a9F10r1U2@mid.individual.net> <oa1p57$nb2$1@dont-email.me> <eijhbpF3douU1@mid.individual.net> <oa247j$tqu$1@dont-email.me> <eil31iFccf2U1@mid.individual.net>

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On 3/12/2017 7:07 AM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-03-11 16:22, Don Y wrote:
>> On 3/11/2017 5:00 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>>> No GFCI but I may add a GFCI outlet externally for some circuits and
>>>>> run them
>>>>> off of those. Even if not required by code.
>>>>
>>>> Consider AFCI, instead.
>>>
>>> Just came back from the HW store and luckily the guy at the electical
>>> aisle was
>>> a former electrician. He said the new Murray breakers fit the panel
>>> and (so
>>> far) they do. I looked at GFCI and got sticker shock. $50 (fifty!) a pop.
>>> Yikes. If I want GF protection I'll just come off with a stub into a GFCI
>>> outlet and then on from there. It's now all 15A, was 20A but the
>>> <expletive
>>> censored> dude who built this panel chose to use 14AWG wire on a 30A
>>> (!) breaker.
>>
>> The GFCI *outlets* don't seem to hold up, well.  There are also
>> cosmetic issues ("Why does this outlet have two little buttons?"
>> or "Why is this outlet SQUARE while these others are ROUNDED?"
>
> Here they do hold up.

I've been called on to replace several for friends/neighbors.
Particularly outdoor installations (water/moisture/critters
foul the mechanism).

I've replaced some of the "standard" outlets on our GFCI branch circuits
over the years simply because they've seen too much wear (kitchen counter
circuits and outdoor circuits see lots of plug insertion events).

> Square, round, who cares?

When the other outlets nearby are one style, it's tacky to have a
*different* style nearby.  Also, covers for "in use" protection
suit one or the other style.  And, you tend to have a larger range
of "quality" available in the "round" style (at a more affordable
price).  Finally, you aren't at the whim of the EXISTING WIRING
in determining where to site the GFCI outlet which MUST be at the
furthest upstream outlet on the branch circuit being protected
(annoying if you're forced to locate the "master outlet" in a
spot that is less accessible than you'd want; or, that is
glaringly different, cosmetically, than the outlets 24 inches
away on each side.)

> Aside from an order of
> magnitude lower cost while affording the same protection the GFCI outlet is
> where the action is and not at the end of some dark hallway. So if someone
> plugs in a device and it goes click .. lights out .. they know what happened.
> They can reset it right there.

In 20 years, the only time we've tripped a GFCI has been when the receptacle
end of an extension cord plugged into an outdoor outlet was lying in a puddle 
of water adjacent to the outlet.  Took multiple attempts to determine this
to be the cause (because ANOTHER cord was plugged into another outlet
on that same branch circuit with the same condition some 40 feet distant!)
It was nice to know I wouldn't have my feet in that water as I "reset" the
circuit!

If the GFCI trips, I *know* where it is located (in the load center).  I
don't have to wander into the *other* bathroom to reset a fault in THIS
bathroom.  Or, wander around the exterior of the house looking to see which
of the outdoor outlets has the GFCI installed, therein (ditto for the garage:
"Is it behind THIS pile of stuff?  or the NEXT pile?").  It's easier for SWMBO
to KNOW that a "blown circuit" (for whatever reason, whatever circuit) is
handled in the load center instead of forcing her to remember which circuits
are protected by GFCI's (IN SERIES WITH CIRCUIT BREAKERS) and which are
protected by *just* circuit breakers.

If you enjoy the convenience of having the ability to reset a blown breaker
AT the receptacle, why not put a GFCI on EACH branch circuit?  ("Gee, which
bedroom has the GFCI for *this* bedroom's outlets?")

> An electrician told me that is is quite common that people opt for the outlet
> instead of the breaker. He couldn't understand the high prices either.

It's common because its easier to replace (install) a receptacle than a
breaker.  The cost difference is undoubtedly related to differences in
manufacturing quantity.

>> We opted for GFCI breakers instead of relying on the outlets with
>> daisy-chained
>> (often shitty back-stabbed connections!) support for downstream outlets.
>> Having friends in the business made them much more affordable (when they
>> are
>> buying thousands of devices each year, it behooves their suppliers to cut
>> them a good deal!)
>>
>> Bathrooms, garage, outdoors, kitchen, etc.
>
> Some folks don't have "friends in the business" and $50 a pop is outrageous. I
> don't mind paying for good quality merchandise but I do mind when a company
> tried to rip me off.

Find a more reputable company!

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Thread

Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-11 11:53 -0800
  Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-03-11 13:03 -0700
    Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-11 12:31 -0800
      Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-11 18:36 -0800
        Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-12 07:10 -0700
  Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-11 13:09 -0700
    Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-11 12:34 -0800
      Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-11 14:13 -0700
        Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-11 16:00 -0800
          Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-11 17:22 -0700
            Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-11 21:40 -0500
            Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-12 07:07 -0700
              Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-12 07:59 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-12 08:16 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-12 12:16 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-13 11:19 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-15 12:52 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-16 08:01 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-16 10:19 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-16 10:37 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-16 16:12 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-16 16:33 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-16 20:15 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-12 20:43 -0400
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-13 02:05 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-13 21:33 -0400
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-14 06:38 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-14 12:47 -0400
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-14 12:00 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-14 20:44 -0400
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-15 05:53 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-15 12:53 -0400
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility kevin93 <kevin@whitedigs.com> - 2017-03-15 15:11 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-15 16:34 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-15 20:38 -0400
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-16 08:03 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-16 20:36 -0400
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-17 16:54 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-17 22:35 -0400
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-18 07:42 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-18 10:47 -0400
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-03-14 05:12 +0000
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-14 12:48 -0400
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-13 11:20 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-12 20:39 -0400
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-03-13 16:53 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-03-13 17:13 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-14 08:06 -0700
              Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-12 20:36 -0400
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-13 11:54 -0700
      Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-11 13:27 -0800
        Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-11 16:02 -0800
          Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-11 16:33 -0800
            Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-12 07:14 -0700
              Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-12 11:38 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-13 15:49 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-14 06:40 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-14 07:59 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-14 12:51 -0400
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-14 11:57 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-14 14:01 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-14 14:21 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-14 16:59 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> - 2017-03-16 00:50 +1100
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-15 07:26 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-15 11:17 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-15 16:31 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-03-15 16:59 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-15 19:06 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> - 2017-03-16 23:26 +1100
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-16 10:12 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-14 20:47 -0400
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-14 20:47 -0400
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-16 08:06 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> - 2017-03-17 16:29 -0400
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-17 22:39 -0400
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 01:52 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-18 09:45 -0400
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 07:37 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-18 10:48 -0400
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 09:18 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-18 14:13 -0400
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 13:20 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-18 20:00 -0400
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-18 18:40 -0700
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility krw@notreal.com - 2017-03-18 22:17 -0400
                Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> - 2017-03-19 12:14 -0400
    ) Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2017-03-12 01:12 -0500
      Re: ) tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-03-12 03:51 -0700
  Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.really> - 2017-03-11 14:27 -0600
    Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-11 12:38 -0800
      Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> - 2017-03-12 23:57 +1100
        Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-03-12 07:17 -0700
  Re: Very slightly OT: Circuit breaker compatibility Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2017-03-11 20:14 -0600

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