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Groups > rec.arts.sf.written > #420895 > unrolled thread
| Started by | lal_truckee <lal_truckee@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2015-08-23 12:44 -0700 |
| Last post | 2015-09-08 05:16 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 355 — 50 participants |
Back to article view | Back to rec.arts.sf.written
puppies lal_truckee <lal_truckee@yahoo.com> - 2015-08-23 12:44 -0700
Re: puppies lal_truckee <lal_truckee@yahoo.com> - 2015-08-23 12:46 -0700
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-24 08:09 -0400
Re: puppies jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) - 2015-08-23 22:28 +0100
Re: puppies Konrad Gaertner <kgaertner@tx.rr.com> - 2015-08-23 16:53 -0500
Re: puppies Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2015-08-24 10:27 +0100
Re: puppies "Gary R. Schmidt" <grschmidt@acm.org> - 2015-08-24 20:43 +1000
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-24 08:11 -0400
Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-08-24 05:37 -0700
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-24 08:49 -0400
Re: puppies Richard Hershberger <rrhersh@gmail.com> - 2015-08-24 08:43 -0700
Re: puppies "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-08-25 01:58 -0400
Re: puppies Steve Coltrin <spcoltri@omcl.org> - 2015-08-24 17:48 -0600
Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-08-24 22:46 -0700
Re: puppies Kay Shapero <kay@invalid.net> - 2015-08-24 22:52 -0700
Re: puppies goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) - 2015-08-23 22:53 +0000
Re: puppies "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2015-08-23 19:14 -0400
Re: puppies goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) - 2015-08-24 03:08 +0000
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-24 09:20 -0700
Re: puppies Magewolf <Magewolf@nc.rr.com> - 2015-08-24 14:48 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-24 12:07 -0700
Re: puppies petertrei@gmail.com - 2015-08-24 12:49 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-24 14:16 -0700
Re: puppies petertrei@gmail.com - 2015-08-24 14:55 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-24 16:31 -0700
Re: puppies "Robert A. Woodward" <robertaw@drizzle.com> - 2015-08-24 22:04 -0700
Re: puppies Magewolf <Magewolf@nc.rr.com> - 2015-08-24 15:53 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-24 14:24 -0700
Re: puppies Magewolf <Magewolf@nc.rr.com> - 2015-08-24 19:13 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-24 16:36 -0700
Re: puppies David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2015-08-24 18:51 -0500
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-24 16:54 -0700
Re: puppies Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2015-08-24 20:20 -0400
Re: puppies goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) - 2015-08-25 05:31 +0000
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-25 09:01 -0700
Re: puppies Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2015-08-25 12:15 -0400
Re: puppies petertrei@gmail.com - 2015-08-25 09:26 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-25 09:38 -0700
Re: puppies "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2015-08-25 17:57 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-25 16:03 -0700
Re: puppies lal_truckee <lal_truckee@yahoo.com> - 2015-08-25 16:32 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-26 09:13 -0700
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-25 20:28 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-26 09:16 -0700
Re: puppies "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2015-08-25 22:34 -0400
Re: puppies "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2015-08-25 22:40 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-26 09:27 -0700
Re: puppies "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2015-08-26 20:46 -0400
Re: puppies Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2015-08-26 20:41 -0500
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 09:22 -0700
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-27 13:23 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 10:43 -0700
Re: puppies David Johnston <David@block.net> - 2015-08-27 11:56 -0600
Re: puppies "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-08-27 16:37 -0400
Re: puppies "John F. Eldredge" <john@jfeldredge.com> - 2015-09-28 03:08 +0000
Re: puppies Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2015-09-27 20:31 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-27 22:34 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-27 22:33 -0700
Re: puppies Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2015-08-28 09:15 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 10:42 -0700
Re: puppies Stephen Graham <graham1@speakeasy.net> - 2015-08-26 16:39 -0700
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-26 00:24 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-26 09:25 -0700
Re: puppies Erik Trulsson <erikt@Update.UU.SE> - 2015-08-27 10:50 +0000
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 09:26 -0700
Re: puppies "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2015-08-27 19:11 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 08:49 -0700
Re: puppies "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-08-28 13:45 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 10:52 -0700
Re: puppies "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-08-28 14:09 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 11:13 -0700
Re: puppies Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> - 2015-08-30 03:36 +0000
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-25 20:21 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-26 09:14 -0700
Re: puppies Torbjorn Lindgren <tl@none.invalid> - 2015-08-26 23:50 +0000
Re: puppies "Robert A. Woodward" <robertaw@drizzle.com> - 2015-08-26 22:04 -0700
Re: puppies Catherine Jefferson <spamtrap@spambouncer.org> - 2015-08-26 22:25 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 09:16 -0700
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-27 08:00 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 09:17 -0700
Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-08-27 05:03 -0700
Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-08-27 05:09 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 09:18 -0700
Re: puppies Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2015-08-27 11:59 -0500
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 10:38 -0700
Re: puppies jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) - 2015-08-28 17:49 +0000
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 10:53 -0700
Re: puppies hamish.laws@gmail.com - 2015-09-13 05:52 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-13 10:40 -0700
Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-08-27 10:12 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 10:39 -0700
Re: puppies "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2015-08-27 19:09 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 08:47 -0700
Re: puppies David Johnston <David@block.net> - 2015-08-27 11:52 -0600
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 10:54 -0700
Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-08-27 12:18 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 13:06 -0700
Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-08-27 13:41 -0700
Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-08-27 13:48 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 13:56 -0700
Re: puppies Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2015-08-27 14:21 -0700
Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-08-27 14:30 -0700
Re: puppies petertrei@gmail.com - 2015-08-27 15:11 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 15:39 -0700
Re: puppies Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2015-08-27 16:43 -0700
Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-08-27 17:50 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 13:55 -0700
Re: puppies "John F. Eldredge" <john@jfeldredge.com> - 2015-09-26 17:40 +0000
Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-27 13:54 -0700
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-27 20:29 -0400
Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-28 04:49 -0700
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-28 09:12 -0400
Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-28 08:19 -0700
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-28 14:35 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-28 11:55 -0700
Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-28 15:35 -0700
Re: puppies Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2015-09-30 01:35 -0700
Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-30 05:19 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-30 08:55 -0700
Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-30 13:48 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-30 14:12 -0700
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-30 18:49 -0400
Re: puppies Konrad Gaertner <kgaertner@tx.rr.com> - 2015-09-30 17:56 -0500
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-10-01 08:15 -0400
Re: puppies Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2015-10-01 05:45 -0700
Re: puppies William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> - 2015-10-01 11:56 -0700
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-28 18:46 -0400
Re: puppies petertrei@gmail.com - 2015-09-28 07:26 -0700
Re: puppies Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2015-08-28 09:32 -0700
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-28 20:42 -0400
Re: puppies Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-08-28 23:10 -0700
Re: puppies "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-08-29 15:16 -0400
Re: puppies Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2015-08-29 06:21 -0700
Re: puppies Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> - 2015-09-01 10:05 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 09:16 -0700
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-27 13:38 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 10:51 -0700
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-27 21:23 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 08:55 -0700
Re: puppies jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) - 2015-08-28 17:44 +0000
Re: puppies Torbjorn Lindgren <tl@invalid.none> - 2015-08-30 23:10 +0000
Re: puppies goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) - 2015-08-31 07:44 +0000
Re: puppies jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) - 2015-08-31 14:04 +0000
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-01 06:45 -0400
Re: puppies jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) - 2015-09-01 17:10 +0000
Re: puppies Steve Coltrin <spcoltri@omcl.org> - 2015-09-01 12:14 -0600
Re: puppies David Johnston <David@block.net> - 2015-09-01 12:19 -0600
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-01 23:24 -0400
Re: puppies goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) - 2015-08-29 08:12 +0000
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-30 01:26 -0400
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-27 07:56 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 09:29 -0700
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-27 13:39 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 10:52 -0700
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-27 21:25 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 08:59 -0700
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-24 22:24 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-25 09:02 -0700
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-25 20:30 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-26 09:18 -0700
Re: puppies Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-08-26 17:07 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 09:19 -0700
Re: puppies Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-08-27 17:49 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 08:50 -0700
Re: puppies Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-08-28 14:30 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 15:24 -0700
Re: puppies Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-08-28 23:15 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-01 09:20 -0700
Re: puppies Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2015-09-01 15:22 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-01 15:38 -0700
Re: puppies Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-09-02 11:10 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 11:43 -0700
Re: puppies Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-09-02 22:54 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 09:27 -0700
Re: puppies goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) - 2015-08-24 22:47 +0000
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-24 16:31 -0700
Re: puppies jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) - 2015-08-28 17:38 +0000
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-24 19:03 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-24 16:32 -0700
Re: puppies Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2015-08-23 16:31 -0700
Re: puppies Steve Coltrin <spcoltri@omcl.org> - 2015-08-24 17:50 -0600
Re: puppies Wolffan <AKWolffan@gmail.com> - 2015-08-23 21:49 -0400
Re: puppies Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2015-08-23 22:17 -0500
Re: puppies Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2015-08-24 02:44 -0600
Re: puppies Wolffan <AKWolffan@gmail.com> - 2015-08-24 05:21 -0400
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-27 11:06 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 09:30 -0700
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-27 13:41 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 10:53 -0700
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-27 21:26 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 09:00 -0700
Re: puppies Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> - 2015-08-28 15:12 +0000
Re: puppies David Johnston <David@block.net> - 2015-08-28 09:26 -0600
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 09:11 -0700
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-28 12:19 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 10:44 -0700
Re: puppies David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2015-08-28 22:56 -0500
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-01 09:19 -0700
Re: puppies "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-09-01 13:43 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-01 11:16 -0700
Re: puppies Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2015-09-01 16:39 -0600
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-01 16:08 -0700
Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-01 17:42 -0700
Re: puppies "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-09-01 20:52 -0400
Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-02 08:26 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 08:13 -0700
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-01 23:26 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 08:14 -0700
Re: puppies petertrei@gmail.com - 2015-09-02 08:36 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 10:18 -0700
Re: puppies petertrei@gmail.com - 2015-09-02 10:38 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 11:42 -0700
Re: puppies scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-09-02 18:35 +0000
Re: puppies David Johnston <David@block.net> - 2015-09-02 12:38 -0600
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 11:45 -0700
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-02 15:46 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 13:53 -0700
Re: puppies David Johnston <David@block.net> - 2015-09-02 15:04 -0600
Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-02 14:19 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 14:22 -0700
Re: puppies leif.roar@dimnakorr.com - 2015-09-03 02:55 -0500
Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-03 05:23 -0700
Re: puppies petertrei@gmail.com - 2015-09-03 06:28 -0700
Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-03 07:44 -0700
Re: puppies Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2015-09-03 09:10 -0700
Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-03 09:33 -0700
Re: puppies David Johnston <David@block.net> - 2015-09-03 10:59 -0600
Re: puppies jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) - 2015-09-03 17:46 +0000
Re: puppies petertrei@gmail.com - 2015-09-03 11:05 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 11:09 -0700
Re: puppies petertrei@gmail.com - 2015-09-03 11:24 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 11:39 -0700
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-03 17:37 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 15:21 -0700
Re: puppies Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 18:48 -0500
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 16:51 -0700
Re: puppies Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2015-09-03 18:19 -0700
Re: puppies jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) - 2015-09-03 19:14 +0000
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 13:05 -0700
Re: puppies petertrei@gmail.com - 2015-09-03 13:08 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 13:19 -0700
Re: puppies jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) - 2015-09-04 14:57 +0000
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 11:06 -0700
Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-03 11:40 -0700
Re: puppies Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2015-09-03 15:13 -0400
Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-03 12:54 -0700
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-03 17:41 -0400
Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-03 19:29 -0700
Re: puppies Ahasuerus <ahasuerus@email.com> - 2015-09-03 20:53 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-04 09:12 -0700
Re: puppies Konrad Gaertner <kgaertner@tx.rr.com> - 2015-09-04 13:48 -0500
Re: puppies Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2015-09-04 15:09 -0400
Re: puppies "Michael R N Dolbear" <me@privacy.net> - 2015-09-04 21:16 +0100
Re: puppies Ahasuerus <ahasuerus@email.com> - 2015-09-04 13:29 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-04 13:44 -0700
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-05 06:40 -0400
Re: puppies Ahasuerus <ahasuerus@email.com> - 2015-09-05 11:45 -0700
Re: puppies goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) - 2015-09-05 00:30 +0000
Re: puppies Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2015-09-04 20:01 -0500
Re: puppies Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2015-09-05 01:43 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 09:02 -0700
Re: puppies "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-09-08 15:02 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 12:55 -0700
Re: puppies hamish.laws@gmail.com - 2015-09-13 07:22 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-13 10:42 -0700
Re: puppies Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2015-09-13 11:46 -0600
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-13 14:02 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-13 22:18 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-13 22:13 -0700
Re: puppies "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-09-13 16:25 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-13 22:20 -0700
Re: puppies "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-09-06 21:42 -0400
Re: puppies Ahasuerus <ahasuerus@email.com> - 2015-09-04 12:39 -0700
Re: puppies "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2015-09-04 23:58 -0400
Re: puppies Ahasuerus <ahasuerus@email.com> - 2015-09-05 11:31 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 09:03 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-04 09:10 -0700
Re: puppies scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-09-04 16:19 +0000
Re: puppies David Johnston <David@block.net> - 2015-09-04 10:24 -0600
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-04 09:44 -0700
Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-04 10:43 -0700
Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-04 10:20 -0700
Re: puppies David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2015-09-02 20:52 -0500
Re: puppies David Johnston <David@block.net> - 2015-09-02 20:21 -0600
Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-02 20:41 -0700
Re: puppies leif.roar@dimnakorr.com - 2015-09-03 04:27 -0500
Re: puppies Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2015-09-03 18:17 -0700
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-03 07:30 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 09:26 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 09:25 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 11:44 -0700
Re: puppies David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2015-09-02 20:53 -0500
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 09:26 -0700
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-03 07:32 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 09:30 -0700
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-03 13:14 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 11:05 -0700
Re: puppies David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2015-09-03 20:06 -0500
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-02 15:41 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 13:52 -0700
Re: puppies leif.roar@dimnakorr.com - 2015-09-03 04:20 -0500
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 09:29 -0700
Re: puppies David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2015-09-03 20:02 -0500
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-04 09:07 -0700
Re: puppies David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2015-09-04 11:52 -0500
Re: puppies Ahasuerus <ahasuerus@email.com> - 2015-09-04 10:14 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-04 10:55 -0700
Re: puppies "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-09-04 14:57 -0400
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-05 07:05 -0400
Re: puppies "Gary R. Schmidt" <grschmidt@acm.org> - 2015-08-29 00:09 +1000
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-28 10:32 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 09:03 -0700
Re: puppies "Gary R. Schmidt" <grschmidt@acm.org> - 2015-08-29 02:20 +1000
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 10:45 -0700
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 09:02 -0700
Re: puppies "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-08-28 14:02 -0400
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 11:10 -0700
Re: puppies Stephen Harker <sjharker@netspace.net.au> - 2015-08-29 08:00 +1000
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 15:25 -0700
Re: puppies "Kevin C." <kevin_c75@yahoo.com> - 2015-08-31 17:02 -0700
Re: puppies "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-08-31 20:23 -0400
Re: puppies "Kevin C." <kevin_c75@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-01 04:12 -0700
Re: puppies "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-09-01 14:05 -0400
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-01 23:28 -0400
Re: puppies "Kevin C." <kevin_c75@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-04 17:07 -0700
Re: puppies Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2015-09-04 19:20 -0500
Re: puppies jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) - 2015-09-05 01:38 +0000
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 08:56 -0700
Re: puppies Konrad Gaertner <kgaertner@tx.rr.com> - 2015-09-04 20:15 -0500
Re: puppies "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2015-09-04 23:55 -0400
Re: puppies Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2015-09-04 23:32 -0500
Re: puppies Ahasuerus <ahasuerus@email.com> - 2015-09-05 10:39 -0700
Re: puppies "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2015-09-06 10:05 -0400
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-05 06:49 -0400
Re: puppies Mart van de Wege <mvdwege@gmail.com> - 2015-09-06 07:28 +0200
Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 09:00 -0700
Re: puppies Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2015-08-31 19:30 -0500
Re: puppies "Kevin C." <kevin_c75@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-01 04:14 -0700
Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-01 06:43 -0400
Re: puppies Konrad Gaertner <kgaertner@tx.rr.com> - 2015-09-01 14:08 -0500
Re: puppies "Kevin C." <kevin_c75@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-01 15:50 -0700
"Honey Badgers"? (was: puppies) wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-06 07:50 -0400
Re: "Honey Badgers"? (was: puppies) Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-06 06:20 -0700
Re: "Honey Badgers"? (was: puppies) wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-06 10:42 -0400
Re: "Honey Badgers"? (was: puppies) Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2015-09-06 09:11 -0600
Re: "Honey Badgers"? (was: puppies) Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-06 10:34 -0700
Re: "Honey Badgers"? (was: puppies) Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2015-09-06 12:48 -0700
Re: "Honey Badgers"? (was: puppies) nebusj-@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) - 2015-09-07 04:24 +0000
Re: "Honey Badgers"? (was: puppies) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 11:25 -0400
Re: "Honey Badgers"? (was: puppies) Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 10:46 -0500
Re: "Honey Badgers"? "Gary R. Schmidt" <grschmidt@acm.org> - 2015-09-08 14:49 +1000
Re: "Honey Badgers"? lal_truckee <lal_truckee@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-07 11:43 -0700
Re: "Honey Badgers"? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-09-07 19:18 +0000
Re: "Honey Badgers"? (was: puppies) wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-07 15:34 -0400
Re: "Honey Badgers"? (was: puppies) Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-08 05:16 -0700
Page 4 of 18 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 … 18 Next page →
| From | Stephen Graham <graham1@speakeasy.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-26 16:39 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <d4711sF6enhU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #421112 |
On 8/25/2015 7:40 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote: > They had one obviously decent book choice (Jim Butcher's) and they > agreed with a lot of non-Puppies that Guardians of the Galaxy was > awesome. Other than that the stuff they offered wasn't terribly > impressive. Of the novella nominations, "Flow" was decent; the three Wright entries were the type of thing I thought they wanted to get away from; and the fifth nominee appeared to be a reject from a late-run Bolo collection with the serial numbers scraped off.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-26 00:24 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <mrjf2n$t5i$1@panix2.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #421111 |
In article <mrj8g7$7ks$1@dont-email.me>, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> said: > Had I voted, I'd have done the same as most of them. They weren't > voting against the puppies' WORKs, they were voting against them > being assholes and forcing their way onto the ballot in a > technically legal but obviously wrongheaded manner. The vote said > "WE DO NOT LIKE YOUR TACTICS". The "and your books suck" was a > distant, distant second or third. Third, behind No Award. -- wds
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-26 09:25 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA5025FD8E7DDtaustingmail@69.16.179.43> |
| In reply to | #421111 |
"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in
news:mrj8g7$7ks$1@dont-email.me:
> On 8/25/15 7:03 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in
>> news:mrio9d$ql1$1@dont-email.me:
>>
>>> On 8/25/15 12:38 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>>>> petertrei@gmail.com wrote in
>>>> news:f8752e4a-86c5-4e2d-bee8-bbb35654bcec@googlegroups.com:
>>>>
>>>>> I'd really like to see Torgersen repudiate Beale, but it
>>>>> hasn't happened yet.
>>>>>
>>>> Indeed. Though perhaps "denounce" would be a better idea. If
>>>> he did, he would gain considerable credibility for his stated
>>>> cause. Of course, that would require that his stated cause be
>>>> his actual cause, and so far, it's not at all clear that's
>>>> the case.
>>>>
>>>> If he doesn't repudiate Beale, he'll be taken as endorsing
>>>> him.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It'd also help if they actually had a clearly stated
>>> cause rather than
>>> a sort of potpourri of vague accusations and handwaving. They
>>> couldn't be consistent about what they wanted,
>>
>> There's no consistency between wingnuts, but Torgensen was
>> pretty consisten and moderatly conherent in his agenda.
>>
>>> and in the few
>>> instances I thought I saw a consistent message, what they DID
>>> was in opposition to what they CLAIMED.
>>
>> Again, there's wide variation between different wingnuts, but I
>> find it hard to argue with your point.
>>>
>>> And if they REALLY wanted to fix the Hugos, they chose
>>> pretty much the
>>> worst possible way to try to do it. At least Vox Day became
>>> up-front about his intentions being to just piss all over the
>>> Hugos; the Puppies were mostly avoiding such claims, but the
>>> way they approached it seemed only likely to produce the
>>> result that it did.
>>>
>> No, they accomplished exactly what they intended to do. They
>> predicted that the insiders who run the Hugos
>
>
> There aren't any.
But they made it look like there are. And perception is what
counts. The reality is irrelevant, if nobody believes it.
>
> There's the Worldcon fans, and people sympathetic to them,
> but to
> portray them as "insiders" implies a small group. The puppies,
> put together, were about a thousand. They were smacked down by
> about three times that many people, implying that their claims
> to represent a larger population is at best questionable and at
> worst laughable.
25% is a big enough majority that they should be given some
consideration. "Tyranny of the majority" isn't a good thing.
>
> Had I voted, I'd have done the same as most of them. They
> weren't
> voting against the puppies' WORKs, they were voting against them
> being assholes and forcing their way onto the ballot in a
> technically legal but obviously wrongheaded manner.
Which is to say, you agree that the Puppies were _correct_ when
they predicted that voting would not be based on the quality of the
writing, and you apparently agree that it shouldn't be.
You made their point.
> The vote
> said "WE DO NOT LIKE YOUR TACTICS". The "and your books suck"
> was a distant, distant second or third. And their books DID
> suck; they didn't pick anything like their best possible choices
> even given their ostensible preferences.
>
> If they REALLY wanted to change the Hugos? They should have
> done what
> ANYONE does if they want to change the opinion of a
> long-established organization: Join it, become part of it, and
> take your time becoming accepted. Yes, that would take years.
> Tough, Worldcon and its fandom have been around for decades.
> It's changed over those years, but never on fast timescales.
Except that's not, in any way, part of the Hugo process. The
process is, "pay your $40 and you get to nominate and vote." They
very carefully followed the rules, and as they predicted, they were
excluded, not because of the quality of the works nominated (which
many publicly vowed not to read), but because they were outsiders,
and the elite in charge don't like outsiders who won't suck up
properly.
Again, you make their point.
>
> Instead, they decided there was some diabolical cabal
> running things
> and they were going to beat on them with a hammer, and instead
> found that Worldcon's got a lot more fans than they do who are
> willing to actually vote.
>
They said that the people involved in the Hugos didn't believe in
the rules, and they were right and you have agreed. They said
they'd be excluded from the awards, not because of the quality of
the works, but because of exclusion politics of the community, and
they were right, and you have agreed. They said the Hugos have
nothing to do with the quality of the writing, and they were right,
and you have agreed.
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Erik Trulsson <erikt@Update.UU.SE> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-27 10:50 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <mrmq26$aof$1@Iltempo.Update.UU.SE> |
| In reply to | #421149 |
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote: > "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in > news:mrj8g7$7ks$1@dont-email.me: >> >> Had I voted, I'd have done the same as most of them. They >> weren't >> voting against the puppies' WORKs, they were voting against them >> being assholes and forcing their way onto the ballot in a >> technically legal but obviously wrongheaded manner. > > Which is to say, you agree that the Puppies were _correct_ when > they predicted that voting would not be based on the quality of the > writing, and you apparently agree that it shouldn't be. They were sort of correct in the result, but not about the reasons. They predicted they would be biased against because they were too right-wing, or not part of the "inner circle", etc. That was not why they were biased against. People voted against them because they did not like the way they tried to push their way in - or the accusations they threw around. The big 'conspiracy' against them did not exist before the Puppy campaign started - it came into being as a result. Their acts created an opposition where none had existed before - and then claims victory because they had predicted that they would be opposed. A self-fulfilling prophecy if ever there was one.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-27 09:26 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA503601DC9950taustingmail@69.16.179.42> |
| In reply to | #421195 |
Erik Trulsson <erikt@Update.UU.SE> wrote in
news:mrmq26$aof$1@Iltempo.Update.UU.SE:
> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in
>> news:mrj8g7$7ks$1@dont-email.me:
>
>>>
>>> Had I voted, I'd have done the same as most of them. They
>>> weren't
>>> voting against the puppies' WORKs, they were voting against
>>> them being assholes and forcing their way onto the ballot in a
>>> technically legal but obviously wrongheaded manner.
>>
>> Which is to say, you agree that the Puppies were _correct_ when
>> they predicted that voting would not be based on the quality of
>> the writing, and you apparently agree that it shouldn't be.
>
> They were sort of correct in the result, but not about the
> reasons.
>
> They predicted they would be biased against because they were
> too right-wing, or not part of the "inner circle", etc.
>
> That was not why they were biased against. People voted against
> them because they did not like the way they tried to push their
> way in - or the accusations they threw around.
>
> The big 'conspiracy' against them did not exist before the Puppy
> campaign started - it came into being as a result.
>
> Their acts created an opposition where none had existed before -
> and then claims victory because they had predicted that they
> would be opposed. A self-fulfilling prophecy if ever there was
> one.
>
And? They, or rather, the Worldcon insiders, proved beyond any
doubt that the quality of the work doesn't matter. That they will
vote the awards based on their opinions of the authors and the
people promoting the work. They *said* so, publicly, quite a few
times, and advocated others do the same.
Calling it a conspiracy is overstating the case, at least in common
usage (conspracies do not rquire conscious planning and
cooperation, really, they can arise spontaneously, as this one
did). But certainly there was a willingness to come together and
protect the view of what should get awards _that was not based on
the quality of the works_, that was deeply embedded in the Worldcon
culture. There's no question of that at all any more.
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-27 19:11 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <mro5b4$30p$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #421218 |
On 8/27/15 12:26 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
> Erik Trulsson <erikt@Update.UU.SE> wrote in
> news:mrmq26$aof$1@Iltempo.Update.UU.SE:
>
>> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in
>>> news:mrj8g7$7ks$1@dont-email.me:
>>
>>>>
>>>> Had I voted, I'd have done the same as most of them. They
>>>> weren't
>>>> voting against the puppies' WORKs, they were voting against
>>>> them being assholes and forcing their way onto the ballot in a
>>>> technically legal but obviously wrongheaded manner.
>>>
>>> Which is to say, you agree that the Puppies were _correct_ when
>>> they predicted that voting would not be based on the quality of
>>> the writing, and you apparently agree that it shouldn't be.
>>
>> They were sort of correct in the result, but not about the
>> reasons.
>>
>> They predicted they would be biased against because they were
>> too right-wing, or not part of the "inner circle", etc.
>>
>> That was not why they were biased against. People voted against
>> them because they did not like the way they tried to push their
>> way in - or the accusations they threw around.
>>
>> The big 'conspiracy' against them did not exist before the Puppy
>> campaign started - it came into being as a result.
>>
>> Their acts created an opposition where none had existed before -
>> and then claims victory because they had predicted that they
>> would be opposed. A self-fulfilling prophecy if ever there was
>> one.
>>
> And? They, or rather, the Worldcon insiders, proved beyond any
> doubt that the quality of the work doesn't matter. That they will
> vote the awards based on their opinions of the authors and the
> people promoting the work.
No. They voted based on "You guys are deliberately gaming the awards
and trying to force shit down our throats, so we will reject your game."
Nothing in there about the opinion of the people OR the works, although
there was plenty of that on both sides.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
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| From | Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-28 08:49 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA50459C2F10F4taustingmail@69.16.179.42> |
| In reply to | #421268 |
"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in
news:mro5b4$30p$2@dont-email.me:
> On 8/27/15 12:26 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>> Erik Trulsson <erikt@Update.UU.SE> wrote in
>> news:mrmq26$aof$1@Iltempo.Update.UU.SE:
>>
>>> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote
>>>> in news:mrj8g7$7ks$1@dont-email.me:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Had I voted, I'd have done the same as most of them.
>>>>> They weren't
>>>>> voting against the puppies' WORKs, they were voting against
>>>>> them being assholes and forcing their way onto the ballot in
>>>>> a technically legal but obviously wrongheaded manner.
>>>>
>>>> Which is to say, you agree that the Puppies were _correct_
>>>> when they predicted that voting would not be based on the
>>>> quality of the writing, and you apparently agree that it
>>>> shouldn't be.
>>>
>>> They were sort of correct in the result, but not about the
>>> reasons.
>>>
>>> They predicted they would be biased against because they were
>>> too right-wing, or not part of the "inner circle", etc.
>>>
>>> That was not why they were biased against. People voted
>>> against them because they did not like the way they tried to
>>> push their way in - or the accusations they threw around.
>>>
>>> The big 'conspiracy' against them did not exist before the
>>> Puppy campaign started - it came into being as a result.
>>>
>>> Their acts created an opposition where none had existed before
>>> - and then claims victory because they had predicted that they
>>> would be opposed. A self-fulfilling prophecy if ever there was
>>> one.
>>>
>> And? They, or rather, the Worldcon insiders, proved beyond any
>> doubt that the quality of the work doesn't matter. That they
>> will vote the awards based on their opinions of the authors and
>> the people promoting the work.
>
>
> No. They voted based on "You guys are deliberately gaming
> the awards
> and trying to force shit down our throats, so we will reject
> your game."
That's what I said. That's _exactly_ what I said. They're not
voting on the merits of the writing, and they are encouraging
others to do the same.
>
> Nothing in there about the opinion of the people OR the
> works, although
> there was plenty of that on both sides.
>
You're not usually so dense as to claim "we're not playing your
game" is not a judgement on the person. Really? You're that
invested in this, that you've lost your impartiality *that* far?
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
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| From | "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-28 13:45 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <175xvjgxdow21.1umtovkj8ut5h$.dlg@40tude.net> |
| In reply to | #421332 |
On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 08:49:26 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote in<news:XnsA50459C2F10F4taustingmail@69.16.179.42> in rec.arts.sf.written: > "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> > wrote in news:mro5b4$30p$2@dont-email.me: [...] >> Nothing in there about the opinion of the people OR the >> works, although there was plenty of that on both sides. > You're not usually so dense as to claim "we're not > playing your game" is not a judgement on the person. It’s not: it’s a judgement of the action. It’s not in the least incompatible with ‘I understand your motive and sympathize with your position, but this isn’t the way to effect the desired change’. Mind you, I’ve little doubt that in many cases it slops over into a judgement of the person or even is slopover *from* a judgement of the person, but it is not in itself such a judgement. [...] Brian -- It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss, haggisss.
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| From | Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-28 10:52 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA5046EA771D4Etaustingmail@69.16.179.43> |
| In reply to | #421361 |
"Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> wrote in
news:175xvjgxdow21.1umtovkj8ut5h$.dlg@40tude.net:
> On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 08:49:26 -0700, Gutless Umbrella
> Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote
> in<news:XnsA50459C2F10F4taustingmail@69.16.179.42> in
> rec.arts.sf.written:
>
>> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com>
>> wrote in news:mro5b4$30p$2@dont-email.me:
>
> [...]
>
>>> Nothing in there about the opinion of the people OR the
>>> works, although there was plenty of that on both sides.
>
>> You're not usually so dense as to claim "we're not
>> playing your game" is not a judgement on the person.
>
> It’s not: it’s a judgement of the action.
Bullshit. More pasive/aggressive bullying from the liberal left. At
least conservative wingnuts admit when they're calling people
names.
> It’s not in the
> least incompatible with ‘I understand your motive and
> sympathize with your position, but this isn’t the way to
> effect the desired change’.
That's judging the message by judging the messenger. It's an error
in science, and it's an error in literature.
> Mind you, I’ve little doubt
> that in many cases it slops over into a judgement of the
> person or even is slopover *from* a judgement of the
> person, but it is not in itself such a judgement.
>
Let's translate this in to a different (and exaggerate for effect)
context:
Let's say you're on a jury for a murder trial. At the beginning of
the trial, the prosecution gets up and says "The bastard did it,
and we have proof." And the defense gets up and says "The
prosecution is lying, and *we* have proof." And in the course of
the trial, the prosecution presents their evidence and testimony,
and it makes a compelling case for guilt. Then the defense gets up
and proves, beyond any possible doubt, that the prosecution's star
witnesses lied, under oath, about things that matter in the trial,
and they they had mishandled key evidence in a way that taints the
entire case.
But the defense attorney is a complete and utter asshole, and
deliberately presents his case in way that will publicly humiliate
the prosecutor to the greatest degree possible. No laws are broken,
no court procedures are violated, but the damage to the
prosecutor's repulation is great, and permanent.
Do you vote to condemn the defendant because you don't like his
attorney?
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
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| From | "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-28 14:09 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <18qtidzr42oe3$.owitxz7r77j6.dlg@40tude.net> |
| In reply to | #421364 |
On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 10:52:39 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote in<news:XnsA5046EA771D4Etaustingmail@69.16.179.43> in rec.arts.sf.written: > "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> wrote in > news:175xvjgxdow21.1umtovkj8ut5h$.dlg@40tude.net: >> On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 08:49:26 -0700, Gutless Umbrella >> Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote >> in<news:XnsA50459C2F10F4taustingmail@69.16.179.42> in >> rec.arts.sf.written: [...] >>> You're not usually so dense as to claim "we're not >>> playing your game" is not a judgement on the person. >> It's not: it's a judgement of the action. > Bullshit. More pasive/aggressive bullying from the > liberal left. At least conservative wingnuts admit when > they're calling people names. >> It's not in the least incompatible with 'I >> understand your motive and sympathize with your >> position, but this isnât the way to effect the >> desired change'. > That's judging the message by judging the messenger. It's > an error in science, and it's an error in literature. Okay, now you’re just being silly. [...] Brian -- It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss, haggisss.
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| From | Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-28 11:13 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA504721A7A1B4taustingmail@69.16.179.42> |
| In reply to | #421368 |
"Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> wrote in news:18qtidzr42oe3
$.owitxz7r77j6.dlg@40tude.net:
> On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 10:52:39 -0700, Gutless Umbrella
> Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote
> in<news:XnsA5046EA771D4Etaustingmail@69.16.179.43> in
> rec.arts.sf.written:
>
>> "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> wrote in
>> news:175xvjgxdow21.1umtovkj8ut5h$.dlg@40tude.net:
>
>>> On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 08:49:26 -0700, Gutless Umbrella
>>> Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote
>>> in<news:XnsA50459C2F10F4taustingmail@69.16.179.42> in
>>> rec.arts.sf.written:
>
> [...]
>
>>>> You're not usually so dense as to claim "we're not
>>>> playing your game" is not a judgement on the person.
>
>>> It's not: it's a judgement of the action.
>
>> Bullshit. More pasive/aggressive bullying from the
>> liberal left. At least conservative wingnuts admit when
>> they're calling people names.
>
>>> It's not in the least incompatible with 'I
>>> understand your motive and sympathize with your
>>> position, but this isnât the way to effect the
>>> desired change'.
>
>> That's judging the message by judging the messenger. It's
>> an error in science, and it's an error in literature.
>
> Okay, now you’re just being silly.
You disagree that it's a logical error to judge the messange based
on your opinion of the messenger? You're really willing to put that
on the record in a public forum?
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
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| From | Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-30 03:36 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <20150827b@crcomp.net> |
| In reply to | #421095 |
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
> No, they accomplished exactly what they intended to do. They
> predicted that the insiders who run the Hugos would supress the
> Puppies' nominees, then they proceeded to manipulate the process in
> to looking like that it whas happened. It's *not* what happened,
> but it's not entirely out of line to see that in the news coverage.
>
> Because Beale and his loonies don't care a rat's ass about the
> Hugoes one way or the other. That's just a tool to build his cult-
> like following of "minions." One of the key elements of building a
> cult is conflict with the mainstream, but it is *critically*
> important that the cult *lose* that conflict. It's a tool to
> isolate the followers from outside influence. "See? I told you
> they'd oppress us if we tried to do our thing, and they did. You're
> only safe here with us." Beale's read _The True Believer_, and
> understood it.
>
> And next year will reinforce the lesson. It'll be the last time
> they get to game the current nomination process, and they'll get
> handed their ass in teh final vote again, proving yet again that
> there's a caucasian man hating conspriacy in charge of science
> fiction. And then the rules will change to silence even the hint of
> dissent. That's how it'll play (and perception is *everything*, the
> reality is irrelevant), and it'll work. It wouldn't surprise me to
> see Beale moving on to some compound in the middle of Arkansas
> eventually, surrounded by people who sacrifice their own comfort
> for his.
>
> He's crazy, but he's not stupid.
Thank you for sharing _The True Believer_. It goes a long way towards
exposing successful modern politicians. Not altruistic pols, mind you,
just successful pols.
Beale must be "bad dog" if he truly exploits it, Machiavellian style.
So the other dawg must be "good dog" (at least in the eyes of some).
Regardless, thank you again.
--
,-. There was a young lady named Bright
\_/ Whose speed was far faster than light;
{|||)< Don Kuenz KB7RPU She set out one day
/ \ In a relative way
`-' And returned on the previous night.
What you do speaks so loud that I can not hear what you say. - Emerson.
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| From | wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-25 20:21 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <mrj0qp$hco$1@panix2.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #421077 |
In article <f8752e4a-86c5-4e2d-bee8-bbb35654bcec@googlegroups.com>, petertrei@gmail.com said: > I'd really like to see Torgersen repudiate Beale, but it hasn't > happened yet. And it's gotten awfully close to too late by now. -- wds
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| From | Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-26 09:14 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA5025DF50CD11taustingmail@69.16.179.43> |
| In reply to | #421107 |
wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote in news:mrj0qp$hco$1
@panix2.panix.com:
> In article <f8752e4a-86c5-4e2d-bee8-bbb35654bcec@googlegroups.com>,
> petertrei@gmail.com said:
>
>> I'd really like to see Torgersen repudiate Beale, but it hasn't
>> happened yet.
>
> And it's gotten awfully close to too late by now.
>
For this year. It'd be more effective for him to loudly denounce
Beale early in the process next year, using this year's debacle as
ammo. "Don't let this wingnuts ruin this year's Hugos, too!"
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
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| From | Torbjorn Lindgren <tl@none.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-26 23:50 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <mrljc2$fb6$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #421145 |
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote: >wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote in news:mrj0qp$hco$1 >@panix2.panix.com: >> In article <f8752e4a-86c5-4e2d-bee8-bbb35654bcec@googlegroups.com>, >> petertrei@gmail.com said: >>> I'd really like to see Torgersen repudiate Beale, but it hasn't >>> happened yet. >> >> And it's gotten awfully close to too late by now. >> >For this year. It'd be more effective for him to loudly denounce >Beale early in the process next year, using this year's debacle as >ammo. "Don't let this wingnuts ruin this year's Hugos, too!" I don't think it was a debacle really, even if it could have gone better. Despite talk about "nuclear option", nothing I've heard came even close (say WSFS amendments targeting slates, and no, EPH doesn't count, the Sad Puppies should be embracing it). But yeah, denouncing Vox Day (Performance Artis & Internet Troll) is obviously in their interest, but I'm not sure they've understood that. There's two obvious additional steps they could choose to do that I can think of that would bring back much of the credibility Torgersen flushed down the toilet. * Don't promote 5 names, promote 2-3 ones instead. Going for 5 candidates is an obvious attempt to drown out your opponents! (neither SP1 nor SP2 did this). Later if EPH has passed they can ramp it up again if they choose but I'd suggest keep the second point in mind so they don't accidentally kill their own better choices and end up with the 1-2 worst works from their slate and kills the chance for an actual win! * Come up with better candidates, they can do that while still being consistent with their stated goal. Cutting down the number of candidates will help with this. And if they actually DO want to be taken serious, they need to stop that the CRAP with inventing demeaning titles and acronyms. Social Justice Warrior / SJW is the most prominent example of course. Note that this would actually bring them (mostly) in-line with SP1 and SP2 campaigns. What Torgersen did for SP3 is much more consistent with "lets make sure only our works are on the final voting form" than their actual stated goals in my opinion. Part of their criticism is about being shut out, so it's very hard to not read this as intentional.
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| From | "Robert A. Woodward" <robertaw@drizzle.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-26 22:04 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <robertaw-8CD7B8.22041726082015@news.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #421177 |
In article <mrljc2$fb6$1@dont-email.me>, Torbjorn Lindgren <tl@none.invalid> wrote: > Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote: > >wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote in news:mrj0qp$hco$1 > >@panix2.panix.com: > >> In article <f8752e4a-86c5-4e2d-bee8-bbb35654bcec@googlegroups.com>, > >> petertrei@gmail.com said: > >>> I'd really like to see Torgersen repudiate Beale, but it hasn't > >>> happened yet. > >> > >> And it's gotten awfully close to too late by now. > >> > >For this year. It'd be more effective for him to loudly denounce > >Beale early in the process next year, using this year's debacle as > >ammo. "Don't let this wingnuts ruin this year's Hugos, too!" > > I don't think it was a debacle really, even if it could have gone > better. Despite talk about "nuclear option", nothing I've heard came > even close (say WSFS amendments targeting slates, and no, EPH doesn't > count, the Sad Puppies should be embracing it). > > But yeah, denouncing Vox Day (Performance Artis & Internet Troll) is > obviously in their interest, but I'm not sure they've understood that. > > There's two obvious additional steps they could choose to do that I > can think of that would bring back much of the credibility Torgersen > flushed down the toilet. > > * Don't promote 5 names, promote 2-3 ones instead. Going for 5 > candidates is an obvious attempt to drown out your opponents! (neither > SP1 nor SP2 did this). > I will point out that only the Rabid Puppy list went for 5 per category. IIRC, the Sad Puppy list had only 4 novels, 3 novellas, 4 novelettes, and 5 short stories (one of which was replaced by a Wright short story on the Rabid list). I would not name fewer items; I would go up to 10 or more for each professional fiction category. That would make the list look more like a recommended list, not a slate. -- Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> <http://robertaw.drizzlehosting.com>
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| From | Catherine Jefferson <spamtrap@spambouncer.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-26 22:25 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <mrm70c$l8v$1@news.sosdg.org> |
| In reply to | #421187 |
On 8/26/2015 10:04 PM, Robert A. Woodward wrote: > I will point out that only the Rabid Puppy list went for 5 per > category. IIRC, the Sad Puppy list had only 4 novels, 3 novellas, 4 > novelettes, and 5 short stories (one of which was replaced by a > Wright short story on the Rabid list). > > I would not name fewer items; I would go up to 10 or more for each > professional fiction category. That would make the list look more > like a recommended list, not a slate. Why not call it a recommended list, and list 10-20 works that you recommend people to *read* before they nominate? That would actually be useful, as well as giving you the perfect opportunity to showcase works that you think people are overlooking. -- Catherine Jefferson <tw86034@ergosphere.net> Blog/Personal: http://www.ergosphere.net
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| From | Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-27 09:16 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA5035E66590A8taustingmail@69.16.179.42> |
| In reply to | #421187 |
"Robert A. Woodward" <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote in
news:robertaw-8CD7B8.22041726082015@news.individual.net:
> I would not name fewer items; I would go up to 10 or more for
> each professional fiction category. That would make the list
> look more like a recommended list, not a slate.
>
Assuming they *want* to look like a recommended list, and not a
slate.
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
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| From | wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-27 08:00 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <mrmu43$8dn$1@panix2.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #421177 |
In article <mrljc2$fb6$1@dont-email.me>, Torbjorn Lindgren <tl@none.invalid> said: > And if they actually DO want to be taken serious, they need to > stop that the CRAP with inventing demeaning titles and > acronyms. Social Justice Warrior / SJW is the most prominent > example of course. I don't know about any other acronyms in play, but the Sads most certainly did not coin "SJW." Trolls and haters have been using it for quite a while now -- wds
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| From | Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-08-27 09:17 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA5035E8A6A24Btaustingmail@69.16.179.42> |
| In reply to | #421199 |
wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote in news:mrmu43$8dn$1
@panix2.panix.com:
> In article <mrljc2$fb6$1@dont-email.me>,
> Torbjorn Lindgren <tl@none.invalid> said:
>
>> And if they actually DO want to be taken serious, they need to
>> stop that the CRAP with inventing demeaning titles and
>> acronyms. Social Justice Warrior / SJW is the most prominent
>> example of course.
>
> I don't know about any other acronyms in play, but the Sads most
> certainly did not coin "SJW." Trolls and haters have been using
> it for quite a while now
>
It's a natural reaction to the namecalling that's been coming out of
the left for decades.
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
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