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Groups > rec.arts.sf.written > #421149

Re: puppies

Newsgroups rec.arts.sf.written
Subject Re: puppies
From Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com>
References (13 earlier) <f8752e4a-86c5-4e2d-bee8-bbb35654bcec@googlegroups.com> <XnsA501621DCDCD7taustingmail@69.16.179.42> <mrio9d$ql1$1@dont-email.me> <XnsA501A34761BEAtaustingmail@69.16.179.43> <mrj8g7$7ks$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID <XnsA5025FD8E7DDtaustingmail@69.16.179.43> (permalink)
Organization Forte - www.forteinc.com
Date 2015-08-26 09:25 -0700

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"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in
news:mrj8g7$7ks$1@dont-email.me: 

> On 8/25/15 7:03 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in
>> news:mrio9d$ql1$1@dont-email.me:
>>
>>> On 8/25/15 12:38 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>>>> petertrei@gmail.com wrote in
>>>> news:f8752e4a-86c5-4e2d-bee8-bbb35654bcec@googlegroups.com:
>>>>
>>>>> I'd really like to see Torgersen repudiate Beale, but it
>>>>> hasn't happened yet.
>>>>>
>>>> Indeed. Though perhaps "denounce" would be a better idea. If
>>>> he did, he would gain considerable credibility for his stated
>>>> cause. Of course, that would require that his stated cause be
>>>> his actual cause, and so far, it's not at all clear that's
>>>> the case.
>>>>
>>>> If he doesn't repudiate Beale, he'll be taken as endorsing
>>>> him. 
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>       It'd also help if they actually had a clearly stated
>>>       cause rather than
>>> a sort of potpourri of vague accusations and handwaving. They
>>> couldn't be consistent about what they wanted,
>>
>> There's no consistency between wingnuts, but Torgensen was
>> pretty consisten and moderatly conherent in his agenda.
>>
>>> and in the few
>>> instances I thought I saw a consistent message, what they DID
>>> was in opposition to what they CLAIMED.
>>
>> Again, there's wide variation between different wingnuts, but I
>> find it hard to argue with your point.
>>>
>>>       And if they REALLY wanted to fix the Hugos, they chose
>>>       pretty much the
>>> worst possible way to try to do it. At least Vox Day became
>>> up-front about his intentions being to just piss all over the
>>> Hugos; the Puppies were mostly avoiding such claims, but the
>>> way they approached it seemed only likely to produce the
>>> result that it did.
>>>
>> No, they accomplished exactly what they intended to do. They
>> predicted that the insiders who run the Hugos
> 
> 
>      There aren't any.

But they made it look like there are. And perception is what 
counts. The reality is irrelevant, if nobody believes it.
> 
>      There's the Worldcon fans, and people sympathetic to them,
>      but to 
> portray them as "insiders" implies a small group. The puppies,
> put together, were about a thousand. They were smacked down by
> about three times that many people, implying that their claims
> to represent a larger population is at best questionable and at
> worst laughable. 

25% is a big enough majority that they should be given some 
consideration. "Tyranny of the majority" isn't a good thing.
> 
>      Had I voted, I'd have done the same as most of them. They
>      weren't 
> voting against the puppies' WORKs, they were voting against them
> being assholes and forcing their way onto the ballot in a
> technically legal but obviously wrongheaded manner.

Which is to say, you agree that the Puppies were _correct_ when 
they predicted that voting would not be based on the quality of the 
writing, and you apparently agree that it shouldn't be.

You made their point.

> The vote
> said "WE DO NOT LIKE YOUR TACTICS". The "and your books suck"
> was a distant, distant second or third. And their books DID
> suck; they didn't pick anything like their best possible choices
> even given their ostensible preferences. 
> 
>      If they REALLY wanted to change the Hugos? They should have
>      done what 
> ANYONE does if they want to change the opinion of a
> long-established organization: Join it, become part of it, and
> take your time becoming accepted. Yes, that would take years.
> Tough, Worldcon and its fandom have been around for decades.
> It's changed over those years, but never on fast timescales.

Except that's not, in any way, part of the Hugo process. The 
process is, "pay your $40 and you get to nominate and vote." They 
very carefully followed the rules, and as they predicted, they were 
excluded, not because of the quality of the works nominated (which 
many publicly vowed not to read), but because they were outsiders, 
and the elite in charge don't like outsiders who won't suck up 
properly.

Again, you make their point.
> 
>      Instead, they decided there was some diabolical cabal
>      running things 
> and they were going to beat on them with a hammer, and instead
> found that Worldcon's got a lot more fans than they do who are
> willing to actually vote.
> 
They said that the people involved in the Hugos didn't believe in 
the rules, and they were right and you have agreed. They said 
they'd be excluded from the awards, not because of the quality of 
the works, but because of exclusion politics of the community, and 
they were right, and you have agreed. They said the Hugos have 
nothing to do with the quality of the writing, and they were right, 
and you have agreed.

-- 
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
    -- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

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Thread

puppies lal_truckee <lal_truckee@yahoo.com> - 2015-08-23 12:44 -0700
  Re: puppies lal_truckee <lal_truckee@yahoo.com> - 2015-08-23 12:46 -0700
    Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-24 08:09 -0400
  Re: puppies jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) - 2015-08-23 22:28 +0100
  Re: puppies Konrad Gaertner <kgaertner@tx.rr.com> - 2015-08-23 16:53 -0500
    Re: puppies Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2015-08-24 10:27 +0100
      Re: puppies "Gary R. Schmidt" <grschmidt@acm.org> - 2015-08-24 20:43 +1000
        Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-24 08:11 -0400
          Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-08-24 05:37 -0700
            Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-24 08:49 -0400
            Re: puppies Richard Hershberger <rrhersh@gmail.com> - 2015-08-24 08:43 -0700
              Re: puppies "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-08-25 01:58 -0400
        Re: puppies Steve Coltrin <spcoltri@omcl.org> - 2015-08-24 17:48 -0600
          Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-08-24 22:46 -0700
          Re: puppies Kay Shapero <kay@invalid.net> - 2015-08-24 22:52 -0700
  Re: puppies goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) - 2015-08-23 22:53 +0000
    Re: puppies "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2015-08-23 19:14 -0400
      Re: puppies goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) - 2015-08-24 03:08 +0000
      Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-24 09:20 -0700
        Re: puppies Magewolf <Magewolf@nc.rr.com> - 2015-08-24 14:48 -0400
          Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-24 12:07 -0700
            Re: puppies petertrei@gmail.com - 2015-08-24 12:49 -0700
              Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-24 14:16 -0700
                Re: puppies petertrei@gmail.com - 2015-08-24 14:55 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-24 16:31 -0700
              Re: puppies "Robert A. Woodward" <robertaw@drizzle.com> - 2015-08-24 22:04 -0700
            Re: puppies Magewolf <Magewolf@nc.rr.com> - 2015-08-24 15:53 -0400
              Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-24 14:24 -0700
                Re: puppies Magewolf <Magewolf@nc.rr.com> - 2015-08-24 19:13 -0400
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-24 16:36 -0700
                Re: puppies David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2015-08-24 18:51 -0500
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-24 16:54 -0700
                Re: puppies Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2015-08-24 20:20 -0400
                Re: puppies goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) - 2015-08-25 05:31 +0000
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-25 09:01 -0700
                Re: puppies Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2015-08-25 12:15 -0400
                Re: puppies petertrei@gmail.com - 2015-08-25 09:26 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-25 09:38 -0700
                Re: puppies "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2015-08-25 17:57 -0400
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-25 16:03 -0700
                Re: puppies lal_truckee <lal_truckee@yahoo.com> - 2015-08-25 16:32 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-26 09:13 -0700
                Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-25 20:28 -0400
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-26 09:16 -0700
                Re: puppies "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2015-08-25 22:34 -0400
                Re: puppies "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2015-08-25 22:40 -0400
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-26 09:27 -0700
                Re: puppies "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2015-08-26 20:46 -0400
                Re: puppies Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2015-08-26 20:41 -0500
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 09:22 -0700
                Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-27 13:23 -0400
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 10:43 -0700
                Re: puppies David Johnston <David@block.net> - 2015-08-27 11:56 -0600
                Re: puppies "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-08-27 16:37 -0400
                Re: puppies "John F. Eldredge" <john@jfeldredge.com> - 2015-09-28 03:08 +0000
                Re: puppies Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2015-09-27 20:31 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-27 22:34 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-27 22:33 -0700
                Re: puppies Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2015-08-28 09:15 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 10:42 -0700
                Re: puppies Stephen Graham <graham1@speakeasy.net> - 2015-08-26 16:39 -0700
                Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-26 00:24 -0400
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-26 09:25 -0700
                Re: puppies Erik Trulsson <erikt@Update.UU.SE> - 2015-08-27 10:50 +0000
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 09:26 -0700
                Re: puppies "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2015-08-27 19:11 -0400
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 08:49 -0700
                Re: puppies "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-08-28 13:45 -0400
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 10:52 -0700
                Re: puppies "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-08-28 14:09 -0400
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 11:13 -0700
                Re: puppies Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> - 2015-08-30 03:36 +0000
                Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-25 20:21 -0400
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-26 09:14 -0700
                Re: puppies Torbjorn Lindgren <tl@none.invalid> - 2015-08-26 23:50 +0000
                Re: puppies "Robert A. Woodward" <robertaw@drizzle.com> - 2015-08-26 22:04 -0700
                Re: puppies Catherine Jefferson <spamtrap@spambouncer.org> - 2015-08-26 22:25 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 09:16 -0700
                Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-27 08:00 -0400
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 09:17 -0700
                Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-08-27 05:03 -0700
                Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-08-27 05:09 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 09:18 -0700
                Re: puppies Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2015-08-27 11:59 -0500
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 10:38 -0700
                Re: puppies jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) - 2015-08-28 17:49 +0000
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 10:53 -0700
                Re: puppies hamish.laws@gmail.com - 2015-09-13 05:52 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-13 10:40 -0700
                Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-08-27 10:12 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 10:39 -0700
                Re: puppies "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2015-08-27 19:09 -0400
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 08:47 -0700
                Re: puppies David Johnston <David@block.net> - 2015-08-27 11:52 -0600
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 10:54 -0700
                Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-08-27 12:18 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 13:06 -0700
                Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-08-27 13:41 -0700
                Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-08-27 13:48 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 13:56 -0700
                Re: puppies Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2015-08-27 14:21 -0700
                Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-08-27 14:30 -0700
                Re: puppies petertrei@gmail.com - 2015-08-27 15:11 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 15:39 -0700
                Re: puppies Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2015-08-27 16:43 -0700
                Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-08-27 17:50 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 13:55 -0700
                Re: puppies "John F. Eldredge" <john@jfeldredge.com> - 2015-09-26 17:40 +0000
                Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-27 13:54 -0700
                Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-27 20:29 -0400
                Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-28 04:49 -0700
                Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-28 09:12 -0400
                Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-28 08:19 -0700
                Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-28 14:35 -0400
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-28 11:55 -0700
                Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-28 15:35 -0700
                Re: puppies Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2015-09-30 01:35 -0700
                Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-30 05:19 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-30 08:55 -0700
                Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-30 13:48 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-30 14:12 -0700
                Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-30 18:49 -0400
                Re: puppies Konrad Gaertner <kgaertner@tx.rr.com> - 2015-09-30 17:56 -0500
                Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-10-01 08:15 -0400
                Re: puppies Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2015-10-01 05:45 -0700
                Re: puppies William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> - 2015-10-01 11:56 -0700
                Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-28 18:46 -0400
                Re: puppies petertrei@gmail.com - 2015-09-28 07:26 -0700
                Re: puppies Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2015-08-28 09:32 -0700
                Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-28 20:42 -0400
                Re: puppies Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-08-28 23:10 -0700
                Re: puppies "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-08-29 15:16 -0400
                Re: puppies Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2015-08-29 06:21 -0700
                Re: puppies Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> - 2015-09-01 10:05 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 09:16 -0700
                Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-27 13:38 -0400
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 10:51 -0700
                Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-27 21:23 -0400
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 08:55 -0700
                Re: puppies jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) - 2015-08-28 17:44 +0000
                Re: puppies Torbjorn Lindgren <tl@invalid.none> - 2015-08-30 23:10 +0000
                Re: puppies goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) - 2015-08-31 07:44 +0000
                Re: puppies jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) - 2015-08-31 14:04 +0000
                Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-01 06:45 -0400
                Re: puppies jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) - 2015-09-01 17:10 +0000
                Re: puppies Steve Coltrin <spcoltri@omcl.org> - 2015-09-01 12:14 -0600
                Re: puppies David Johnston <David@block.net> - 2015-09-01 12:19 -0600
                Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-01 23:24 -0400
                Re: puppies goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) - 2015-08-29 08:12 +0000
                Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-30 01:26 -0400
                Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-27 07:56 -0400
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 09:29 -0700
                Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-27 13:39 -0400
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 10:52 -0700
                Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-27 21:25 -0400
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 08:59 -0700
                Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-24 22:24 -0400
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-25 09:02 -0700
                Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-25 20:30 -0400
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-26 09:18 -0700
                Re: puppies Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-08-26 17:07 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 09:19 -0700
                Re: puppies Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-08-27 17:49 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 08:50 -0700
                Re: puppies Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-08-28 14:30 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 15:24 -0700
                Re: puppies Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-08-28 23:15 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-01 09:20 -0700
                Re: puppies Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2015-09-01 15:22 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-01 15:38 -0700
                Re: puppies Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-09-02 11:10 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 11:43 -0700
                Re: puppies Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2015-09-02 22:54 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 09:27 -0700
          Re: puppies goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) - 2015-08-24 22:47 +0000
            Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-24 16:31 -0700
          Re: puppies jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) - 2015-08-28 17:38 +0000
        Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-24 19:03 -0400
          Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-24 16:32 -0700
    Re: puppies Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2015-08-23 16:31 -0700
    Re: puppies Steve Coltrin <spcoltri@omcl.org> - 2015-08-24 17:50 -0600
  Re: puppies Wolffan <AKWolffan@gmail.com> - 2015-08-23 21:49 -0400
    Re: puppies Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2015-08-23 22:17 -0500
      Re: puppies Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2015-08-24 02:44 -0600
        Re: puppies Wolffan <AKWolffan@gmail.com> - 2015-08-24 05:21 -0400
  Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-27 11:06 -0400
    Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 09:30 -0700
      Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-27 13:41 -0400
        Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-27 10:53 -0700
          Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-27 21:26 -0400
            Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 09:00 -0700
        Re: puppies Chris Buckley <alan@sabir.com> - 2015-08-28 15:12 +0000
          Re: puppies David Johnston <David@block.net> - 2015-08-28 09:26 -0600
          Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 09:11 -0700
          Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-28 12:19 -0400
            Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 10:44 -0700
              Re: puppies David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2015-08-28 22:56 -0500
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-01 09:19 -0700
                Re: puppies "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-09-01 13:43 -0400
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-01 11:16 -0700
                Re: puppies Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2015-09-01 16:39 -0600
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-01 16:08 -0700
                Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-01 17:42 -0700
                Re: puppies "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-09-01 20:52 -0400
                Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-02 08:26 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 08:13 -0700
                Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-01 23:26 -0400
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 08:14 -0700
                Re: puppies petertrei@gmail.com - 2015-09-02 08:36 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 10:18 -0700
                Re: puppies petertrei@gmail.com - 2015-09-02 10:38 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 11:42 -0700
                Re: puppies scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-09-02 18:35 +0000
                Re: puppies David Johnston <David@block.net> - 2015-09-02 12:38 -0600
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 11:45 -0700
                Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-02 15:46 -0400
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 13:53 -0700
                Re: puppies David Johnston <David@block.net> - 2015-09-02 15:04 -0600
                Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-02 14:19 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 14:22 -0700
                Re: puppies leif.roar@dimnakorr.com - 2015-09-03 02:55 -0500
                Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-03 05:23 -0700
                Re: puppies petertrei@gmail.com - 2015-09-03 06:28 -0700
                Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-03 07:44 -0700
                Re: puppies Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2015-09-03 09:10 -0700
                Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-03 09:33 -0700
                Re: puppies David Johnston <David@block.net> - 2015-09-03 10:59 -0600
                Re: puppies jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) - 2015-09-03 17:46 +0000
                Re: puppies petertrei@gmail.com - 2015-09-03 11:05 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 11:09 -0700
                Re: puppies petertrei@gmail.com - 2015-09-03 11:24 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 11:39 -0700
                Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-03 17:37 -0400
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 15:21 -0700
                Re: puppies Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 18:48 -0500
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 16:51 -0700
                Re: puppies Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2015-09-03 18:19 -0700
                Re: puppies jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) - 2015-09-03 19:14 +0000
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 13:05 -0700
                Re: puppies petertrei@gmail.com - 2015-09-03 13:08 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 13:19 -0700
                Re: puppies jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) - 2015-09-04 14:57 +0000
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 11:06 -0700
                Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-03 11:40 -0700
                Re: puppies Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2015-09-03 15:13 -0400
                Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-03 12:54 -0700
                Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-03 17:41 -0400
                Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-03 19:29 -0700
                Re: puppies Ahasuerus <ahasuerus@email.com> - 2015-09-03 20:53 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-04 09:12 -0700
                Re: puppies Konrad Gaertner <kgaertner@tx.rr.com> - 2015-09-04 13:48 -0500
                Re: puppies Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2015-09-04 15:09 -0400
                Re: puppies "Michael R N Dolbear" <me@privacy.net> - 2015-09-04 21:16 +0100
                Re: puppies Ahasuerus <ahasuerus@email.com> - 2015-09-04 13:29 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-04 13:44 -0700
                Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-05 06:40 -0400
                Re: puppies Ahasuerus <ahasuerus@email.com> - 2015-09-05 11:45 -0700
                Re: puppies goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) - 2015-09-05 00:30 +0000
                Re: puppies Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2015-09-04 20:01 -0500
                Re: puppies Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2015-09-05 01:43 -0400
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 09:02 -0700
                Re: puppies "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-09-08 15:02 -0400
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 12:55 -0700
                Re: puppies hamish.laws@gmail.com - 2015-09-13 07:22 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-13 10:42 -0700
                Re: puppies Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2015-09-13 11:46 -0600
                Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-13 14:02 -0400
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-13 22:18 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-13 22:13 -0700
                Re: puppies "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-09-13 16:25 -0400
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-13 22:20 -0700
                Re: puppies "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-09-06 21:42 -0400
                Re: puppies Ahasuerus <ahasuerus@email.com> - 2015-09-04 12:39 -0700
                Re: puppies "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2015-09-04 23:58 -0400
                Re: puppies Ahasuerus <ahasuerus@email.com> - 2015-09-05 11:31 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 09:03 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-04 09:10 -0700
                Re: puppies scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-09-04 16:19 +0000
                Re: puppies David Johnston <David@block.net> - 2015-09-04 10:24 -0600
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-04 09:44 -0700
                Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-04 10:43 -0700
                Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-04 10:20 -0700
                Re: puppies David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2015-09-02 20:52 -0500
                Re: puppies David Johnston <David@block.net> - 2015-09-02 20:21 -0600
                Re: puppies Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-02 20:41 -0700
                Re: puppies leif.roar@dimnakorr.com - 2015-09-03 04:27 -0500
                Re: puppies Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2015-09-03 18:17 -0700
                Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-03 07:30 -0400
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 09:26 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 09:25 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 11:44 -0700
                Re: puppies David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2015-09-02 20:53 -0500
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 09:26 -0700
                Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-03 07:32 -0400
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 09:30 -0700
                Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-03 13:14 -0400
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 11:05 -0700
                Re: puppies David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2015-09-03 20:06 -0500
                Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-02 15:41 -0400
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 13:52 -0700
                Re: puppies leif.roar@dimnakorr.com - 2015-09-03 04:20 -0500
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-03 09:29 -0700
                Re: puppies David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2015-09-03 20:02 -0500
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-04 09:07 -0700
                Re: puppies David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2015-09-04 11:52 -0500
                Re: puppies Ahasuerus <ahasuerus@email.com> - 2015-09-04 10:14 -0700
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-04 10:55 -0700
                Re: puppies "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-09-04 14:57 -0400
                Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-05 07:05 -0400
      Re: puppies "Gary R. Schmidt" <grschmidt@acm.org> - 2015-08-29 00:09 +1000
        Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-28 10:32 -0400
          Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 09:03 -0700
            Re: puppies "Gary R. Schmidt" <grschmidt@acm.org> - 2015-08-29 02:20 +1000
              Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 10:45 -0700
        Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 09:02 -0700
          Re: puppies "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-08-28 14:02 -0400
            Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 11:10 -0700
              Re: puppies Stephen Harker <sjharker@netspace.net.au> - 2015-08-29 08:00 +1000
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 15:25 -0700
  Re: puppies "Kevin C." <kevin_c75@yahoo.com> - 2015-08-31 17:02 -0700
    Re: puppies "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-08-31 20:23 -0400
      Re: puppies "Kevin C." <kevin_c75@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-01 04:12 -0700
        Re: puppies "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2015-09-01 14:05 -0400
        Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-01 23:28 -0400
          Re: puppies "Kevin C." <kevin_c75@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-04 17:07 -0700
            Re: puppies Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2015-09-04 19:20 -0500
              Re: puppies jdnicoll@panix.com (James Nicoll) - 2015-09-05 01:38 +0000
              Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 08:56 -0700
            Re: puppies Konrad Gaertner <kgaertner@tx.rr.com> - 2015-09-04 20:15 -0500
            Re: puppies "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2015-09-04 23:55 -0400
              Re: puppies Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2015-09-04 23:32 -0500
                Re: puppies Ahasuerus <ahasuerus@email.com> - 2015-09-05 10:39 -0700
                Re: puppies "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2015-09-06 10:05 -0400
            Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-05 06:49 -0400
              Re: puppies Mart van de Wege <mvdwege@gmail.com> - 2015-09-06 07:28 +0200
                Re: puppies Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 09:00 -0700
    Re: puppies Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2015-08-31 19:30 -0500
      Re: puppies "Kevin C." <kevin_c75@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-01 04:14 -0700
    Re: puppies wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-01 06:43 -0400
    Re: puppies Konrad Gaertner <kgaertner@tx.rr.com> - 2015-09-01 14:08 -0500
      Re: puppies "Kevin C." <kevin_c75@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-01 15:50 -0700
  "Honey Badgers"?  (was: puppies) wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-06 07:50 -0400
    Re: "Honey Badgers"?  (was: puppies) Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-06 06:20 -0700
      Re: "Honey Badgers"?  (was: puppies) wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-06 10:42 -0400
        Re: "Honey Badgers"?  (was: puppies) Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2015-09-06 09:11 -0600
          Re: "Honey Badgers"?  (was: puppies) Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-06 10:34 -0700
          Re: "Honey Badgers"?  (was: puppies) Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2015-09-06 12:48 -0700
            Re: "Honey Badgers"? (was: puppies) nebusj-@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) - 2015-09-07 04:24 +0000
              Re: "Honey Badgers"? (was: puppies) "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 11:25 -0400
                Re: "Honey Badgers"? (was: puppies) Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 10:46 -0500
                Re: "Honey Badgers"? "Gary R. Schmidt" <grschmidt@acm.org> - 2015-09-08 14:49 +1000
              Re: "Honey Badgers"? lal_truckee <lal_truckee@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-07 11:43 -0700
                Re: "Honey Badgers"? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2015-09-07 19:18 +0000
      Re: "Honey Badgers"?  (was: puppies) wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-09-07 15:34 -0400
        Re: "Honey Badgers"?  (was: puppies) Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2015-09-08 05:16 -0700

csiph-web