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Debian *not very good

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  Debian *not very good oldbluebear <nvis@eircom.net> - 2016-11-25 16:50 +0100
    Re: Debian *not very good Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-11-25 17:40 +0100
      Re: Debian *not very good The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2016-11-25 21:40 +0100
        Re: Debian *not very good David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2016-11-26 04:00 +0100
      Re: Debian *not very good Latincom <latincom@vcn.bc.ca> - 2016-11-25 22:30 +0100
        Re: Debian *not very good Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-11-26 01:00 +0100
        Re: Debian *not very good Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2016-11-26 01:00 +0100
          Jessie upgrade without systemd [was: Debian *not very good] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2016-11-26 10:20 +0100
            Re: Jessie upgrade without systemd [was: Debian *not very good] Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2016-11-26 11:50 +0100
              Re: Jessie upgrade without systemd [was: Debian *not very good] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2016-11-26 14:50 +0100
              Re: Jessie upgrade without systemd [was: Debian *not very good] Henning Follmann <hfollmann@itcfollmann.com> - 2016-11-26 15:10 +0100
                Re: Jessie upgrade without systemd [was: Debian *not very good] Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2016-11-26 16:00 +0100
                  Re: Jessie upgrade without systemd [was: Debian *not very good] Mart van de Wege <mvdwege@gmail.com> - 2016-11-26 18:40 +0100
              Jessie upgrade without systemd [was: Debian *not very good] Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.com> - 2016-12-03 19:10 +0100
            Re: Jessie upgrade without systemd [was: Debian *not very good] Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2016-11-27 22:50 +0100
            Re: Jessie upgrade without systemd [was: Debian *not very good] Marc Shapiro <marcnshap@gmail.com> - 2016-11-30 04:40 +0100
        Re: Debian *not very good Rob van der Putten <rob@sput.nl> - 2016-11-26 18:40 +0100
          Re: Debian *not very good Rob van der Putten <rob@sput.nl> - 2016-11-26 19:00 +0100
          Re: Debian *not very good Latincom <latincom@vcn.bc.ca> - 2016-11-28 08:30 +0100
    Network connection fails during boot [Was: Debian *not very good] Henning Follmann <hfollmann@itcfollmann.com> - 2016-11-25 18:00 +0100
    Re: Debian *not very good David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2016-11-25 21:10 +0100
    Re: Debian *not very good Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2016-11-26 00:10 +0100
    Re: Debian *not very good Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2016-11-26 05:20 +0100
      Re: Search Your Neighborhood NOW sq The Kidd <trivium1991127@gmail.com> - 2016-11-28 18:20 +0100
      Re: Search Your Neighborhood NOW U7 Lori Parker <plori2258@gmail.com> - 2016-11-28 18:30 +0100
      Re: Search Your Neighborhood NOW YW myles doody <mylesdoody@gmail.com> - 2016-11-28 18:30 +0100
      Re: Search Your Neighborhood NOW fG Casey Hanneman <casey86camaro@gmail.com> - 2016-11-28 18:30 +0100
      Re: Search Your Neighborhood NOW v6 Ink Canvas <nix.chantz@gmail.com> - 2016-11-28 18:30 +0100
      Re: Search Your Neighborhood NOW Wt Joe Ruby <joerubyremodel@gmail.com> - 2016-11-28 18:30 +0100
      Re: Search Your Neighborhood NOW xv Jim Williams <jim.wms1951@gmail.com> - 2016-11-28 18:40 +0100
      Re: Search Your Neighborhood NOW wE john westwood <spot1158@gmail.com> - 2016-11-28 18:40 +0100
      Re: Search Your Neighborhood NOW FE Ann Holman Hull <jannhull@gmail.com> - 2016-11-28 20:20 +0100
      Re: Search Your Neighborhood NOW 9n Lisa Sanders <lisasanders189@gmail.com> - 2016-11-28 20:30 +0100
      Re: Search Your Neighborhood NOW oH Toolz C <toolzc@gmail.com> - 2016-11-29 19:10 +0100
      Re: Search Your Neighborhood NOW Qd Aniyia Williams <aniyiawilliams4@gmail.com> - 2016-12-01 02:10 +0100
      Re: Search Your Neighborhood NOW BH Etienne Byiringiro <byiringiroetienne2002@gmail.com> - 2016-12-06 09:20 +0100
      Re: bd caleb wekesa <wekesacaleb96@gmail.com> - 2016-12-29 21:30 +0100
      Re: bd caleb wekesa <wekesacaleb96@gmail.com> - 2016-12-29 21:30 +0100
      Re: Search Your Neighborhood NOW uL Donnie Herring <donnieh71@gmail.com> - 2017-04-07 05:10 +0200

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#175055 — Debian *not very good

Hi, I am one disgruntled punter.

I have been using Debian since early 1990s. I use it to do useful work 
so any problem with the o/s is a pain in the butt. meaning I have to 
spend scarce time resolving bugs that should have been removed before it 
was released. -classic garage software I suppose- but not what I would 
expect from Debian.

I have just upgraded to 8. I did it  reluctantly because every version 
of Debian has drifted further and further from the K&R UNIX model. Same 
with this version, only this time the thing (Debian 8) crashes one boot 
in 3.

The error message:"A start job is running for LSB: Raise network 
interface (xx sec/no limit)". Where xx is a count up in seconds that 
never ends.  What is LBC ?

My fix is to hit hardware shutdown button which brings the machine 
gracefully down and reboot, this is still a time wasting activity as I 
must sit and watch the boot rather go on with the process of powering up 
the rest of my kit.

Why can you people not leave the interfaces etc alone rather than fiddle.

This time I  find the current Debian as part of the install process has 
created a "Document" where it wants to save any .doc file.  I do not 
want this, I want them on my Desktop from which I move them manually. 
How do I get rid of this action  which I do not want, As I can see no 
simple way to revert to saving documents on my Desktop which is what I 
want; rather what some spotty faced kid has decided i should have.


I am at the point where I am now seriously going to look at what other 
Linux versions are available or maybe pull one of the earlier Debian 
Distro CDs I still have in my store and load that simply to get back an 
environment in which I can work.

For me 90% of the stuff now included in Debian Distro 8 is a waste of 
valuable disk space, and time installing it amd later backing it up.

All I need is a basic system, kernel, file system,  including C compiler 
that understands standard white book C without frills, with standard 
/bin/sh for shell scripts. and Gimp for screenshot manipulation. So I 
can load on top of that "basic system" real Thunderbird,  Firefox and 
pdf tools. Everything else is top hamper. Again I only need US English 
(and maybe UK English but can manage with just US only) the other 
languages again are clutter.

My desktop is green (eye safe) no pictures to gobble up CPU  everything 
is stripped down so the AMD multi-core CPU is there to  run my software 
not decorate the screen.

Why can yo not provide that, and then for those who choose it let them 
add all the gizmo stuff that eats CPU, rather than wishing that stuff on 
every installation.

Maybe I am just a crusty old guy who has been "playing" with the source 
code of  UNIX (Destiny) and UNIX-like O/Ss for too long. But I am very 
unimpressed with my system  as it now is; after performing the Debian 8 
upgraded.  And OK it is "free" but if it is unusable out the box, and I 
must take time fixing it, that is not what I would expect.

The upgrade ran fine, but Debian 8 broke my housekeeping shell scripts 
that have been running for the last 10+ years. [One set of scripts (now 
at revision 21) fires off via rc.local at boot-time. It Telnets into 
each of my modems and pull the ADSL line stats to a continuous log file; 
swapping log files every 12 hours. A second script grabs the last set of 
stats from the log file and throws them on screen  8; as a visual check 
the sampler is running, and for immediate info. All done with smoke and 
mirrors hi!].

How can I at this stage bring this machine back nearer to SySV?

What is LBC ? I am getting screens of stuff that no longer makes sense.



best 73s, (dja)  OldBlueBear

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#175058

On Fri 25 Nov 2016 at 15:21:23 +0000, oldbluebear wrote:

[...Lots of disgruntlement snipped...]

> How can I at this stage bring this machine back nearer to SySV?

You can bring it back in all its glory with

  apt-get install sysvinit-core

-- 
Brian.

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#175066

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On 2016-11-25 at 14:02, Joel Wirāmu Pauling wrote:

> Seriously tho; If you had RTFM you would have known systemd and
> friends were going to be the default on upgrade and taken steps to
> migrate your init.d scripts beforehand.

To be fair, it's entirely reasonable to expect that a change in what
defaults will only affect new installs, not upgrades; in an upgrade
scenario, the defaults have already been applied (during the original
install), so there's no reason for the new defaults to get invoked.

As I tried to point out repeatedly during the major periods of the
systemd debate, different people understand the word "default" in
different ways; the interpretation which I would take out of it does not
necessarily match the interpretation which you would take out of it, and
the interpretation which the speaker meant by it may be different again.
Thus, talking about a change in the default - without clarifying exactly
what you understand "default" to mean - is not particularly helpful for
conveying information.

Looking back now, I would also add that the interpretation which seems
to have been implemented in actual practice is one of the broadest
available.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man.         -- George Bernard Shaw

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#175077

On Fri 25 Nov 2016 at 15:34:01 (-0500), The Wanderer wrote:
> On 2016-11-25 at 14:02, Joel Wirāmu Pauling wrote:
> 
> > Seriously tho; If you had RTFM you would have known systemd and
> > friends were going to be the default on upgrade and taken steps to
> > migrate your init.d scripts beforehand.
> 
> To be fair, it's entirely reasonable to expect that a change in what
> defaults will only affect new installs, not upgrades; in an upgrade
> scenario, the defaults have already been applied (during the original
> install), so there's no reason for the new defaults to get invoked.

It's not clear to me whether the OP upgraded with dist-upgrade or with
a new install. "This time I  find the current Debian as part of the
install process..." suggests the latter.

I do have another problem understanding the OP. Their list of required
software makes no mention of a DE, yet they appear to use one, and to
have installed nine times as many packages as they desire. I can't
square that with someone who hacks Unix source code and claims to have
been using Debian since it was version 0.9X or earlier, a time when
the total number of *files* in the distribution was far fewer than the
number of *packages* available now.

Cheers,
David.

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#175069

On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 16:31:54 +0000, Brian wrote:

> On Fri 25 Nov 2016 at 15:21:23 +0000, oldbluebear wrote:
> 
> [...Lots of disgruntlement snipped...]
> 
>> How can I at this stage bring this machine back nearer to SySV?
> 
> You can bring it back in all its glory with
> 
>   apt-get install sysvinit-core

Is there a step by step guide or How to on line?
I have 1 Wheezy without Systemd, and i would like to upgrade it.
Thanks.

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#175074

On Fri 25 Nov 2016 at 21:26:06 +0000, Latincom wrote:

> On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 16:31:54 +0000, Brian wrote:
> 
> > On Fri 25 Nov 2016 at 15:21:23 +0000, oldbluebear wrote:
> > 
> > [...Lots of disgruntlement snipped...]
> > 
> >> How can I at this stage bring this machine back nearer to SySV?
> > 
> > You can bring it back in all its glory with
> > 
> >   apt-get install sysvinit-core
> 
> Is there a step by step guide or How to on line?
> I have 1 Wheezy without Systemd, and i would like to upgrade it.
> Thanks.

Please see the Release Notes.

-- 
Brian. 

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#175075

On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 21:26:06 +0000 (UTC) Latincom <latincom@vcn.bc.ca>
wrote:

> On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 16:31:54 +0000, Brian wrote:
> 
> > On Fri 25 Nov 2016 at 15:21:23 +0000, oldbluebear wrote:
> > 
> > [...Lots of disgruntlement snipped...]
> > 
> >> How can I at this stage bring this machine back nearer to SySV?
> > 
> > You can bring it back in all its glory with
> > 
> >   apt-get install sysvinit-core
> 
> Is there a step by step guide or How to on line?
> I have 1 Wheezy without Systemd, and i would like to upgrade it.
> Thanks.

If you do a normal dist-upgrade Wheezy to Jessie, sysvinit will be
replaced with systemd.  And probably screw everything up.. I suggest
you do what I did: a clean install of a terminal only Jessie system,
replace systemd with sysvinit, then build the system up from there.
Just remember GNOME3 has systemd as a dependency.  Other utilities do,
too. I used LXDE which doesn't to keep things simple.  I usually just
run a window manager Openbox and a single LXPanel, but that involves a
lot more configuration.  Too much for an initial test.

These links may help:

http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/How_to_remove_systemd_from_a_Debian_jessie/sid_installation
https://community.spiceworks.com/how_to/117634-gnu-linux-debian-without-systemd

There's a Debian wiki to replace systemd, but I couldn't find it this
time.  It was what I used initially for my test install of Jessie in
Virtualbox.

B

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#175081 — Jessie upgrade without systemd [was: Debian *not very good]

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On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 03:57:53PM -0800, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 21:26:06 +0000 (UTC) Latincom <latincom@vcn.bc.ca>
> wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 16:31:54 +0000, Brian wrote:
> > 
> > > On Fri 25 Nov 2016 at 15:21:23 +0000, oldbluebear wrote:
> > > 
> > > [...Lots of disgruntlement snipped...]
> > > 
> > >> How can I at this stage bring this machine back nearer to SySV?
> > > 
> > > You can bring it back in all its glory with
> > > 
> > >   apt-get install sysvinit-core
> > 
> > Is there a step by step guide or How to on line?
> > I have 1 Wheezy without Systemd, and i would like to upgrade it.
> > Thanks.
> 
> If you do a normal dist-upgrade Wheezy to Jessie, sysvinit will be
> replaced with systemd.

Not forcefully.

> And probably screw everything up..

Now this is an unnecessarily loaded statement. Given the smoking holes
the last flame war has left[1], I'd tread carefully if I were you ;-)

> I suggest
> you do what I did: a clean install of a terminal only Jessie system,
> replace systemd with sysvinit, then build the system up from there.
> Just remember GNOME3 has systemd as a dependency.  Other utilities do,
> too. I used LXDE which doesn't to keep things simple.  I usually just
> run a window manager Openbox and a single LXPanel, but that involves a
> lot more configuration.  Too much for an initial test.

While possible, this isn't really necessary. FWIW I managed a clean
Jessie upgrade without touching systemd, by just following the
instructions.

If you want a straight upgrade without systemd, apt-pinning seems
to be the agreed upon way:

  https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/release-notes/ch-information.en.html#systemd-upgrade-default-init-system

Note that many things (Gnome, I'm looking at you) *require* systemd
these days: it'll be much more difficult to avoid systemd if you
want a "modern" desktop environment.

Myself, I'm on Fvwm. I don't even need DBUS :-D

thanks

[1] Sorry for the somewhat grumpy tone, but I'm pretty tired of people
   whining about systemd and borderline disrupting otherwise functional
   mailing lists with their rage. I strongly dislike systemd, yes, but
   i see no reason to hate systemd proponents let alone to harrass them.
   On the contrary, they are doing free software, FFS!

   If all that energy spent on foaming at the mouth and hatred had been
   spent on keeping viable alternatives to systemd afloat and running,
   we'd be in much better shape these days (and perhaps MikeeeUSA
   would have found other coattails to ride on).

- -- tomás
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#175083 — Re: Jessie upgrade without systemd [was: Debian *not very good]

On Sat, 26 Nov 2016 10:02:50 +0100
<tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 03:57:53PM -0800, Patrick Bartek wrote:

> > 
> > If you do a normal dist-upgrade Wheezy to Jessie, sysvinit will be
> > replaced with systemd.  
> 
> Not forcefully.
> 
> > And probably screw everything up..  
> 
> Now this is an unnecessarily loaded statement. Given the smoking holes
> the last flame war has left[1], I'd tread carefully if I were you ;-)
> 

A fair number of wheezy systems will be servers, upgraded many times.
Mine started out as sarge. What are the odds of such a system making the
change to systemd without problems?

I converted a sid to systemd, but had to give up on it as it became too
flaky, unstable in all senses of the word. A workstation isn't really a
problem to reinstall from scratch, an old server is a nightmare.

Obviously I had to do a reinstallation to move to 64 bits, but that was
a get-selections/set-selections job, with the old /etc pretty much
copied over. All the same software, just 64 bit, and more importantly,
all the old scripts. That's not going to work with a systemd-based
reinstall.

> 
> If you want a straight upgrade without systemd, apt-pinning seems
> to be the agreed upon way:
> 
>   https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/release-notes/ch-information.en.html#systemd-upgrade-default-init-system
> 
> Note that many things (Gnome, I'm looking at you) *require* systemd
> these days: it'll be much more difficult to avoid systemd if you
> want a "modern" desktop environment.
> 
> Myself, I'm on Fvwm. I don't even need DBUS :-D
> 

And my server doesn't have X. But I don't expect that to eliminate all
systemd problems.

-- 
Joe

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#175087 — Re: Jessie upgrade without systemd [was: Debian *not very good]

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On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 10:27:07AM +0000, Joe wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Nov 2016 10:02:50 +0100
> <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 03:57:53PM -0800, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> 
> > > 
> > > If you do a normal dist-upgrade Wheezy to Jessie, sysvinit will be
> > > replaced with systemd.  
> > 
> > Not forcefully.
> > 
> > > And probably screw everything up..  
> > 
> > Now this is an unnecessarily loaded statement. Given the smoking holes
> > the last flame war has left[1], I'd tread carefully if I were you ;-)
> > 
> 
> A fair number of wheezy systems will be servers, upgraded many times.
> Mine started out as sarge. What are the odds of such a system making the
> change to systemd without problems?

[...]

> And my server doesn't have X. But I don't expect that to eliminate all
> systemd problems.

I'd say you are in a pretty good shape to choose whatever init system
suits you without big problems, then.

regards
- -- tomás
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#175088 — Re: Jessie upgrade without systemd [was: Debian *not very good]

On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 10:27:07AM +0000, Joe wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Nov 2016 10:02:50 +0100
> <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 03:57:53PM -0800, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> 
> > > 
> > > If you do a normal dist-upgrade Wheezy to Jessie, sysvinit will be
> > > replaced with systemd.  
> > 
> > Not forcefully.
> > 
> > > And probably screw everything up..  
> > 
> > Now this is an unnecessarily loaded statement. Given the smoking holes
> > the last flame war has left[1], I'd tread carefully if I were you ;-)
> > 
> 
> A fair number of wheezy systems will be servers, upgraded many times.
> Mine started out as sarge. What are the odds of such a system making the
> change to systemd without problems?
> 

A reasonable amount.
I did it, and experienced no issues at all. In fact I had more issues while
upgrading to wheezy.

> I converted a sid to systemd, but had to give up on it as it became too
> flaky, unstable in all senses of the word. A workstation isn't really a
> problem to reinstall from scratch, an old server is a nightmare.
> 
> Obviously I had to do a reinstallation to move to 64 bits, but that was
> a get-selections/set-selections job, with the old /etc pretty much
> copied over. All the same software, just 64 bit, and more importantly,
> all the old scripts. That's not going to work with a systemd-based
> reinstall.

You hardly can blame systemd for a 32/64 bit switch.
so you exchange binaries, and? Not s systemd issue.

And while we are at a network issue topic (OP).
Systemd is actually better than any network-manager or your beloved init
scripts at that. It tracks much more reliably the status of your interfaces
than any other method. Period.

-H



-- 
Henning Follmann           | hfollmann@itcfollmann.com

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#175091 — Re: Jessie upgrade without systemd [was: Debian *not very good]

On Sat, 26 Nov 2016 09:01:33 -0500
Henning Follmann <hfollmann@itcfollmann.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 10:27:07AM +0000, Joe wrote:
> > On Sat, 26 Nov 2016 10:02:50 +0100
> > <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:
> >   
> > > On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 03:57:53PM -0800, Patrick Bartek wrote:  
> >   
> > > > 
> > > > If you do a normal dist-upgrade Wheezy to Jessie, sysvinit will
> > > > be replaced with systemd.    
> > > 
> > > Not forcefully.
> > >   
> > > > And probably screw everything up..    
> > > 
> > > Now this is an unnecessarily loaded statement. Given the smoking
> > > holes the last flame war has left[1], I'd tread carefully if I
> > > were you ;-) 
> > 
> > A fair number of wheezy systems will be servers, upgraded many
> > times. Mine started out as sarge. What are the odds of such a
> > system making the change to systemd without problems?
> >   
> 
> A reasonable amount.
> I did it, and experienced no issues at all. In fact I had more issues
> while upgrading to wheezy.

Good to hear. Yes, upgrades have been getting progressively less easy.

> 
> > I converted a sid to systemd, but had to give up on it as it became
> > too flaky, unstable in all senses of the word. A workstation isn't
> > really a problem to reinstall from scratch, an old server is a
> > nightmare.
> > 
> > Obviously I had to do a reinstallation to move to 64 bits, but that
> > was a get-selections/set-selections job, with the old /etc pretty
> > much copied over. All the same software, just 64 bit, and more
> > importantly, all the old scripts. That's not going to work with a
> > systemd-based reinstall.  
> 
> You hardly can blame systemd for a 32/64 bit switch.
> so you exchange binaries, and? Not s systemd issue.

Sorry, I may not have been clear, I was saying that reinstalling to
jump the 32/64 bit barrier has been the only significant upheaval in
the progress of my server since sarge, and that reinstallation was like
for like and therefore quite simple.

If I have to reinstall the server with systemd from the beginning,
because the upgrade is too difficult, then restoring its current
functionality is likely to be significantly harder than the 32/64 bit
change was. I will be migrating configurations between different Debian
versions manually, at the same time as dealing with any systemd issues.
I hope very much to avoid the need for that.

> 
> And while we are at a network issue topic (OP).
> Systemd is actually better than any network-manager or your beloved
> init scripts at that. It tracks much more reliably the status of your
> interfaces than any other method. Period.
> 

Good, although I have had no trouble with networking so far, and have
never installed network-manager on this machine. It has two permanent
Ethernet ports and no other interfaces than lo and an openvpn server.

-- 
Joe

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#175099 — Re: Jessie upgrade without systemd [was: Debian *not very good]

Joe <joe@jretrading.com> writes:

> Sorry, I may not have been clear, I was saying that reinstalling to
> jump the 32/64 bit barrier has been the only significant upheaval in
> the progress of my server since sarge, and that reinstallation was like
> for like and therefore quite simple.
>
> If I have to reinstall the server with systemd from the beginning,
> because the upgrade is too difficult, then restoring its current
> functionality is likely to be significantly harder than the 32/64 bit
> change was. I will be migrating configurations between different Debian
> versions manually, at the same time as dealing with any systemd issues.
> I hope very much to avoid the need for that.
>

It really is hard to say. The upgrade can be painless, but there are
some services that have changed startup behaviour under systemd, and
they can get into some painful issues when reconfiguring. Mostly because
systemd handles dependencies differently from SysV init, and especially
because it does not blithely ignore failed dependencies.

You really are going to have to bite the bullet and build a test server.

Mart

-- 
"We will need a longer wall when the revolution comes."
    --- AJS, quoting an uncertain source.

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#175369 — Jessie upgrade without systemd [was: Debian *not very good]

Joe:

> A fair number of wheezy systems will be servers, upgraded many times. 
> Mine started out as sarge. What are the odds of such a system making 
> the change to systemd without problems?
>

It depends.  But my own experience is that *if they were already using 
systemd* on Debian 7, it was a certainty that Debian bug #774153 will 
rear its ugly head in an upgrade to Debian 8.  I personally hit it with 
every single such system that I upgraded. I hit it on test systems 
first, of course.  So I had to put retaining shell access during the 
upgrade, to wait for the indeterminate point somewhere in the midst of 
about seven hundred package upgrades (alas, not at the same point on 
every machine) that one needs to go in and hand-run "daemon-reexec", 
into the upgrade procedure.

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#175127 — Re: Jessie upgrade without systemd [was: Debian *not very good]

On Sat, 26 Nov 2016 10:02:50 +0100 <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 03:57:53PM -0800, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 21:26:06 +0000 (UTC) Latincom
> > <latincom@vcn.bc.ca> wrote:
> [snip]
> > > Is there a step by step guide or How to on line?
> > > I have 1 Wheezy without Systemd, and i would like to upgrade it.
> > > Thanks.
> > 
> > If you do a normal dist-upgrade Wheezy to Jessie, sysvinit will be
> > replaced with systemd.
> 
> Not forcefully.

Depends on what "forcefully" means to you.  Systemd will still be
installed because of dependencies.  Perhaps, not the init part, but the
rest of it will be even if you choose sysvinit. 

> > And probably screw everything up..
> 
> Now this is an unnecessarily loaded statement. Given the smoking holes
> the last flame war has left[1], I'd tread carefully if I were you ;-)

Yes.  "Everything" is too all encompassing, but there'll be enough
problems to consider a clean install instead of a dist-upgrade when
going from  sysv to systemd, particularly if it's customized with
custom start up scripts, etc..  I've never trusted "upgrading,"
regardless of the distro anyway.  There were way too many problems
early on.

> > I suggest
> > you do what I did: a clean install of a terminal only Jessie system,
> > replace systemd with sysvinit, then build the system up from there.
> > Just remember GNOME3 has systemd as a dependency.  Other utilities
> > do, too. I used LXDE which doesn't to keep things simple.  I
> > usually just run a window manager Openbox and a single LXPanel, but
> > that involves a lot more configuration.  Too much for an initial
> > test.
> 
> While possible, this isn't really necessary. FWIW I managed a clean
> Jessie upgrade without touching systemd, by just following the
> instructions.

In my case, my initial test (in Virtualbox) upgrade Wheezy to Jessie
with my customized Openbox/LXPanel set up with sysvinit conversion
wasn't enitrely successful.  For that reason and others, a clean
install of Jessie, terminal only to begin with, worked much better.  In
any case, after all was said and done, I decided to look for an
alternative to Debian/systemd for my next OS after long term support
ceases for Wheezy. Next year, I think.

> If you want a straight upgrade without systemd, apt-pinning seems
> to be the agreed upon way:
> 
>   https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/release-notes/ch-information.en.html#systemd-upgrade-default-init-system

That has its own caveats as actually noted in the above instructions.

> Note that many things (Gnome, I'm looking at you) *require* systemd
> these days: it'll be much more difficult to avoid systemd if you
> want a "modern" desktop environment.
> 
> Myself, I'm on Fvwm. I don't even need DBUS :-D

FWIW, I've ended up with systemd (not the init part) installed on my
Wheezy system when it wasn't there before.  Don't know when it happened.
And didn't intentionally do it myself.  Probably due to a dependency of
some app I installed.

I fear systemd will become pervasive.  It's already unwelcomed by many.

> [1] Sorry for the somewhat grumpy tone, but I'm pretty tired of people
>    whining about systemd and borderline disrupting otherwise
> functional mailing lists with their rage. I strongly dislike systemd,
> yes, but i see no reason to hate systemd proponents let alone to
> harrass them. On the contrary, they are doing free software, FFS!

No apology necessary.  I wasn't offended.  I was merely stating what my
experience with systemd has been, not trying to start a flame war.
True, I'm not a fan of systemd for various rational reasons, but then
I'm not particularly fond of sysv either.  It's showing its age.  I
prefer runit for a "modern" init system: small, light, does the job,
and stays out of the way.

>    If all that energy spent on foaming at the mouth and hatred had
> been spent on keeping viable alternatives to systemd afloat and
> running, we'd be in much better shape these days (and perhaps
> MikeeeUSA would have found other coattails to ride on).

True.

B

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#175258 — Re: Jessie upgrade without systemd [was: Debian *not very good]

On 11/26/2016 01:02 AM, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> Note that many things (Gnome, I'm looking at you) *require* systemd
> these days: it'll be much more difficult to avoid systemd if you
> want a "modern" desktop environment.
That is the exact reason that I am using Mate.  Based on Gnome 2 with no 
systemd requirements.

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#175098

Hi there


On 25/11/16 22:26, Latincom wrote:

> Is there a step by step guide or How to on line?
> I have 1 Wheezy without Systemd, and i would like to upgrade it.
> Thanks.

You can do both an upgrade and an install from scratch without systemd;
http://without-systemd.org/
http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/How_to_remove_systemd_from_the_Netinst_CD
http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/How_to_remove_systemd_from_a_Debian_jessie/sid_installation
http://people.skolelinux.org/pere/blog/How_to_stay_with_sysvinit_in_Debian_Jessie.html
I had to make some other changes to get things to work though. Reading 
the release notes and keeping a close eye on the install process helps.

I run XFCE on my desktop. I had to add myself to sudo to make things 
work properly.


Regards,
Rob

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#175101

Hi there


On 26/11/16 18:38, Rob van der Putten wrote:

<Cut>

> I run XFCE on my desktop. I had to add myself to sudo to make things
> work properly.

And admin.
admin is needed to get xconsole syslog to work.
sudo to keep xdm logout from complaining. I use lightdm now though.
I edited the cups config manually. The web interface breaks stuff.


Regards,
Rob

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#175141

On Sat, 26 Nov 2016 18:38:58 +0100, Rob van der Putten wrote:

> Hi there
> 
> 
> On 25/11/16 22:26, Latincom wrote:
> 
>> Is there a step by step guide or How to on line?
>> I have 1 Wheezy without Systemd, and i would like to upgrade it.
>> Thanks.
> 
> You can do both an upgrade and an install from scratch without systemd;
> http://without-systemd.org/
> http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/
How_to_remove_systemd_from_the_Netinst_CD
> http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/
How_to_remove_systemd_from_a_Debian_jessie/sid_installation
> http://people.skolelinux.org/pere/blog/
How_to_stay_with_sysvinit_in_Debian_Jessie.html
> I had to make some other changes to get things to work though. Reading
> the release notes and keeping a close eye on the install process helps.
> 
> I run XFCE on my desktop. I had to add myself to sudo to make things
> work properly.
> 
> 

Thanks so much for all answers.


> Regards,
> Rob

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#175059 — Network connection fails during boot [Was: Debian *not very good]

On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 03:21:23PM +0000, oldbluebear wrote:
> Hi, I am one disgruntled punter.
> 
> I have been using Debian since early 1990s. I use it to do useful work so
> any problem with the o/s is a pain in the butt. meaning I have to spend
> scarce time resolving bugs that should have been removed before it was
> released. -classic garage software I suppose- but not what I would expect
> from Debian.
> 
> I have just upgraded to 8. I did it  reluctantly because every version of
> Debian has drifted further and further from the K&R UNIX model. Same with
> this version, only this time the thing (Debian 8) crashes one boot in 3.
> 
> The error message:"A start job is running for LSB: Raise network interface
> (xx sec/no limit)". Where xx is a count up in seconds that never ends.  What
> is LBC ?
> 

Do you just want to vent or would you be interested in some help? The
subject line suggest the first.

However I will just ignor this and point you in the rioght direction.
You have installed your debian in  a "false" way. And I mean that in the
way that your network configuration most likely does not work well.
Somehow you could let the network manager deal with your network
connection. Then this error message will just go away. Most likely the
message does also not appear when your network interface is plugged in and
connects to the network.
If you however inssit to manage your network manually ifplugd or some
daemon which helps you to detect the state of your interface will help you
to get rid of this issue.

[...] <rambling how everything back then was better deleted/>

If you want a computer setup like 20 years ago, just install a basic
version (during tasksel deselect everything) and install everything you
want like you did 10 years ago. It will work just like you want it.

fluxbox is still packaged and will give you the minimalistic desktop you
want so much.





-H


-- 
Henning Follmann           | hfollmann@itcfollmann.com

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