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Re: Jessie upgrade without systemd [was: Debian *not very good]

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On Sat, 26 Nov 2016 10:02:50 +0100 <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 03:57:53PM -0800, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 21:26:06 +0000 (UTC) Latincom
> > <latincom@vcn.bc.ca> wrote:
> [snip]
> > > Is there a step by step guide or How to on line?
> > > I have 1 Wheezy without Systemd, and i would like to upgrade it.
> > > Thanks.
> > 
> > If you do a normal dist-upgrade Wheezy to Jessie, sysvinit will be
> > replaced with systemd.
> 
> Not forcefully.

Depends on what "forcefully" means to you.  Systemd will still be
installed because of dependencies.  Perhaps, not the init part, but the
rest of it will be even if you choose sysvinit. 

> > And probably screw everything up..
> 
> Now this is an unnecessarily loaded statement. Given the smoking holes
> the last flame war has left[1], I'd tread carefully if I were you ;-)

Yes.  "Everything" is too all encompassing, but there'll be enough
problems to consider a clean install instead of a dist-upgrade when
going from  sysv to systemd, particularly if it's customized with
custom start up scripts, etc..  I've never trusted "upgrading,"
regardless of the distro anyway.  There were way too many problems
early on.

> > I suggest
> > you do what I did: a clean install of a terminal only Jessie system,
> > replace systemd with sysvinit, then build the system up from there.
> > Just remember GNOME3 has systemd as a dependency.  Other utilities
> > do, too. I used LXDE which doesn't to keep things simple.  I
> > usually just run a window manager Openbox and a single LXPanel, but
> > that involves a lot more configuration.  Too much for an initial
> > test.
> 
> While possible, this isn't really necessary. FWIW I managed a clean
> Jessie upgrade without touching systemd, by just following the
> instructions.

In my case, my initial test (in Virtualbox) upgrade Wheezy to Jessie
with my customized Openbox/LXPanel set up with sysvinit conversion
wasn't enitrely successful.  For that reason and others, a clean
install of Jessie, terminal only to begin with, worked much better.  In
any case, after all was said and done, I decided to look for an
alternative to Debian/systemd for my next OS after long term support
ceases for Wheezy. Next year, I think.

> If you want a straight upgrade without systemd, apt-pinning seems
> to be the agreed upon way:
> 
>   https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/release-notes/ch-information.en.html#systemd-upgrade-default-init-system

That has its own caveats as actually noted in the above instructions.

> Note that many things (Gnome, I'm looking at you) *require* systemd
> these days: it'll be much more difficult to avoid systemd if you
> want a "modern" desktop environment.
> 
> Myself, I'm on Fvwm. I don't even need DBUS :-D

FWIW, I've ended up with systemd (not the init part) installed on my
Wheezy system when it wasn't there before.  Don't know when it happened.
And didn't intentionally do it myself.  Probably due to a dependency of
some app I installed.

I fear systemd will become pervasive.  It's already unwelcomed by many.

> [1] Sorry for the somewhat grumpy tone, but I'm pretty tired of people
>    whining about systemd and borderline disrupting otherwise
> functional mailing lists with their rage. I strongly dislike systemd,
> yes, but i see no reason to hate systemd proponents let alone to
> harrass them. On the contrary, they are doing free software, FFS!

No apology necessary.  I wasn't offended.  I was merely stating what my
experience with systemd has been, not trying to start a flame war.
True, I'm not a fan of systemd for various rational reasons, but then
I'm not particularly fond of sysv either.  It's showing its age.  I
prefer runit for a "modern" init system: small, light, does the job,
and stays out of the way.

>    If all that energy spent on foaming at the mouth and hatred had
> been spent on keeping viable alternatives to systemd afloat and
> running, we'd be in much better shape these days (and perhaps
> MikeeeUSA would have found other coattails to ride on).

True.

B

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Thread

Debian *not very good oldbluebear <nvis@eircom.net> - 2016-11-25 16:50 +0100
  Re: Debian *not very good Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-11-25 17:40 +0100
    Re: Debian *not very good The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2016-11-25 21:40 +0100
      Re: Debian *not very good David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2016-11-26 04:00 +0100
    Re: Debian *not very good Latincom <latincom@vcn.bc.ca> - 2016-11-25 22:30 +0100
      Re: Debian *not very good Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2016-11-26 01:00 +0100
      Re: Debian *not very good Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2016-11-26 01:00 +0100
        Jessie upgrade without systemd [was: Debian *not very good] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2016-11-26 10:20 +0100
          Re: Jessie upgrade without systemd [was: Debian *not very good] Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2016-11-26 11:50 +0100
            Re: Jessie upgrade without systemd [was: Debian *not very good] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2016-11-26 14:50 +0100
            Re: Jessie upgrade without systemd [was: Debian *not very good] Henning Follmann <hfollmann@itcfollmann.com> - 2016-11-26 15:10 +0100
              Re: Jessie upgrade without systemd [was: Debian *not very good] Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2016-11-26 16:00 +0100
                Re: Jessie upgrade without systemd [was: Debian *not very good] Mart van de Wege <mvdwege@gmail.com> - 2016-11-26 18:40 +0100
            Jessie upgrade without systemd [was: Debian *not very good] Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.com> - 2016-12-03 19:10 +0100
          Re: Jessie upgrade without systemd [was: Debian *not very good] Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2016-11-27 22:50 +0100
          Re: Jessie upgrade without systemd [was: Debian *not very good] Marc Shapiro <marcnshap@gmail.com> - 2016-11-30 04:40 +0100
      Re: Debian *not very good Rob van der Putten <rob@sput.nl> - 2016-11-26 18:40 +0100
        Re: Debian *not very good Rob van der Putten <rob@sput.nl> - 2016-11-26 19:00 +0100
        Re: Debian *not very good Latincom <latincom@vcn.bc.ca> - 2016-11-28 08:30 +0100
  Network connection fails during boot [Was: Debian *not very good] Henning Follmann <hfollmann@itcfollmann.com> - 2016-11-25 18:00 +0100
  Re: Debian *not very good David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2016-11-25 21:10 +0100
  Re: Debian *not very good Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2016-11-26 00:10 +0100
  Re: Debian *not very good Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2016-11-26 05:20 +0100
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