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Re; Okay, that's too much now!

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  Re; Okay, that's too much now! Greencopper <greencoppermine@gmail.com> - 2015-09-06 08:50 +0200
    Re: Re; Okay, that's too much now! <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2015-09-06 12:30 +0200
      Re: Re; Okay, that's too much now! Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 02:30 +0200
    Re: Re; Okay, that's too much now! Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2015-09-06 20:40 +0200
      Re: Re; Okay, that's too much now! Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2015-09-06 21:40 +0200
        Re: Re; Okay, that's too much now! Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-09-06 23:20 +0200
          Re: Re; Okay, that's too much now! Andrew McGlashan <andrew.mcglashan@affinityvision.com.au> - 2015-09-07 09:30 +0200
            Re: Re; Okay, that's too much now! Riley Baird <BM-2cVqnDuYbAU5do2DfJTrN7ZbAJ246S4XiX@bitmessage.ch> - 2015-09-07 10:20 +0200
              Re: Re; Okay, that's too much now! Jessica Litwin <jessica@litw.in> - 2015-09-07 10:20 +0200
                Re: Re; Okay, that's too much now! <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2015-09-07 12:20 +0200
            Re: Re; Okay, that's too much now! Martin Read <zen75502@zen.co.uk> - 2015-09-07 11:30 +0200
            Re: Re; Okay, that's too much now! Bob Holtzman <holtzm@cox.net> - 2015-09-07 21:20 +0200
              Re: Re; Okay, that's too much now! Andrew McGlashan <andrew.mcglashan@affinityvision.com.au> - 2015-09-07 22:10 +0200
                Re: Re; Okay, that's too much now! Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 23:50 +0200
                Re: Re; Okay, that's too much now! Bob Holtzman <holtzm@cox.net> - 2015-09-08 19:50 +0200
              Re: Re; Okay, that's too much now! Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 23:50 +0200
      Re: Re; Okay, that's too much now! Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2015-09-06 23:00 +0200

#157430 — Re; Okay, that's too much now!

> I have been a Debian user for more than 15 years, when the "war" about systemd
> broke out I mostly ignored it, I just removed systemd from my systems because I
> don't like the implementation.
>
> Today I was setting up a new Debian system and wanted to remove systemd only to
> find our that the old tools "bsdutils" has been made dependent upon libsystemd0
>
> "This package contains the bare minimum of BSD utilities needed for a Debian
> system: logger, renice, script, scriptreplay, and wall. The remaining standard
> BSD utilities are provided by bsdmainutils."
>
> What the freaking !#¤"#¤"¤#"#%" are people doing!?
>
> Why the hell has this collections of utilities from FreeBSD been made dependent
> upon libsystemd0!?!?!?
>
> Freedom of choice my ass!

Hi Erik

Systemd is spreading like a cancer striking its ugly tentacles into
everything it can get its hands on.

But there is hope!

Eventhough it is still alpha we have migrated almost all of our
desktop systems to Devuan (the Debian fork), still missing a few, but
we're getting to them as well. It works really great! Like Jessie but
without systemd.

For servers we have shifted from Debian to Alpine Linux. Not only does
Alpine Linux not have systemd, it is also a much more secure Linux,
running with a patched kernel, and it is really doing things the
original UNIX way.

We're also running OpenBSD and FreeBSD on some of our firewalls, but
we're also using FreeBSD on desktops with identical Xfce4 setups to
those of Devuan.

It is all working really great and I can highly recommend it!

Debian has been our favorite OS for many many years, but the way the
users unhappiness with systemd was handled, and the implementation
itself, has made us bid farewell.

Kind regards

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#157437

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On Sun, Sep 06, 2015 at 08:32:30AM +0200, Greencopper wrote:

[...]

> > Why the hell has this collections of utilities from FreeBSD been made dependent
> > upon libsystemd0!?!?!?
> >
> > Freedom of choice my ass!
> 
> Hi Erik
> 
> Systemd is spreading like a cancer striking its ugly tentacles into
> everything it can get its hands on.

Please. Pretty please. Your post is helpful. Can we let the "cancer"
part out? Some want it, some not.

> But there is hope!

Of course there is!
- -- t
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=TPre
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#157494

On 09/06/2015 06:28 AM, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Sun, Sep 06, 2015 at 08:32:30AM +0200, Greencopper wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>>> Why the hell has this collections of utilities from FreeBSD been made dependent
>>> upon libsystemd0!?!?!?
>>>
>>> Freedom of choice my ass!
>>
>> Hi Erik
>>
>> Systemd is spreading like a cancer striking its ugly tentacles into
>> everything it can get its hands on.
>
> Please. Pretty please. Your post is helpful. Can we let the "cancer"
> part out? Some want it, some not.

I think it is frigging WONDERFUL! So there. :) Ric

-- 
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

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#157464

On 2015-09-06, Greencopper <greencoppermine@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Systemd is spreading like a cancer striking its ugly tentacles into
> everything it can get its hands on.
>

"cancer striking its ugly tentacles into everything it can get its hands
on"

So pathetically put I wonder if you might not be a sock puppet for the
other side, mixing metaphors and confusing appendages in order to cast
doubt upon the mental abilities of the opposition (that is, yourself and
your minions if we could accept you at face value).

Everything is so confusing.

But while three-year-olds are washing up upon this shore and that face
down and stiff from *rigor mortis* because they want to get out from
under the bombs, let's have another long, long circle jerk whine and
dine about our favorite init systems.

At least we got our priorities straight here, right?

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#157469

On Sun, 6 Sep 2015 18:35:49 +0000 (UTC)
Curt <curty@free.fr> wrote:

> On 2015-09-06, Greencopper <greencoppermine@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Systemd is spreading like a cancer striking its ugly tentacles into
> > everything it can get its hands on.
> >
> 
> "cancer striking its ugly tentacles into everything it can get its
> hands on"
> 
> So pathetically put I wonder if you might not be a sock puppet for the
> other side, mixing metaphors and confusing appendages in order to cast
> doubt upon the mental abilities of the opposition (that is, yourself
> and your minions if we could accept you at face value).
> 
> Everything is so confusing.
> 
> But while three-year-olds are washing up upon this shore and that face
> down and stiff from *rigor mortis* because they want to get out from
> under the bombs, let's have another long, long circle jerk whine and
> dine about our favorite init systems.
> 
You might want to ease back on that one a little, it turns out that the
family have lived in Turkey for three years, and were not fleeing war.
Tragic, most definitely, bombs, no.

> At least we got our priorities straight here, right?
> 

'Our'? We all have different priorities.

OK, the language was dramatic rather than pathetic, but fairly
descriptive. All kinds of system software *is* being pulled together
under the 'systemd' badge, and inevitably will one day stop functioning
separately. It's not wrong to point this out, though it is better done
dispassionately. Maybe it's a good thing, but good or bad, it's worth
being continuously aware of.

-- 
Joe

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#157487

On Sunday 06 September 2015 20:31:11 Joe wrote:
> You might want to ease back on that one a little, it turns out that the
> family have lived in Turkey for three years, and were not fleeing war.
> Tragic, most definitely, bombs, no.

They left their home because of bombs.  They could not go back to their home 
because of bombs and fighting.  They were looking for a new home.  You have 
to be desperate to try to cross ten miles of stormy sea in an overcrowded 
rubber dinghy.

Carl didn't overstate half as much as calling systemd a cancer with tentacles.  
(Do cancers actually have tentacles??).

I gather Devuan is doing well.  So there are choices.  One of course is stick 
with Debian, and work to rename all the libraries whose names cause such 
distress. "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

Lisi

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#157504

On 7/09/2015 7:15 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> Carl didn't overstate half as much as calling systemd a cancer with tentacles.  
> (Do cancers actually have tentacles??).

It's plainly obvious, it is exactly what it is.  Read Lennart's own blog
if you want more proof, it's all there, unless he has taken it down.

I still tend that there should be a desktop version that may or may not
optionally have systemd and a server version that definitely does not
have systemd.  Not that I would support any version with systemd, but
some seem to see it as a desktop enabler of some sort.

> I gather Devuan is doing well.  So there are choices.  One of course is stick 
> with Debian, and work to rename all the libraries whose names cause such 
> distress. "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

And re-branding Monsanto is still ... Monsanto.  Renaming is just hiding
the facts or at least making them harder to be seen.

A.

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#157507

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

> And re-branding Monsanto is still ... Monsanto.  Renaming is just hiding
> the facts or at least making them harder to be seen.

So far, we've had references to cancer, Monsato and human rights
abuses. Seriously, even if Debian decided to go completely proprietary,
it wouldn't be as bad as those things.

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#157508

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Hitler.

There, I said it.  Can we move on now?

On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 4:13 AM, Riley Baird <
BM-2cVqnDuYbAU5do2DfJTrN7ZbAJ246S4XiX@bitmessage.ch> wrote:

> > And re-branding Monsanto is still ... Monsanto.  Renaming is just hiding
> > the facts or at least making them harder to be seen.
>
> So far, we've had references to cancer, Monsato and human rights
> abuses. Seriously, even if Debian decided to go completely proprietary,
> it wouldn't be as bad as those things.
>



-- 
Jessica K. Litwin
jessicalitwin.com
twitter: press5
aim: press5key
skype: dr_jkl

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#157513

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On Mon, Sep 07, 2015 at 04:15:11AM -0400, Jessica Litwin wrote:
> Hitler.
> 
> There, I said it.  Can we move on now?

I fear times are changing. Everyone hates SysVInit. Most have forgotten
Godwin's Law. Top-quoting is rampant. Young'uns these days, tsk, tsk.

;-)

Regards
- -- tomás
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#157511

On 07/09/15 08:29, Andrew McGlashan wrote:
> I still tend that there should be a desktop version that may or may not
> optionally have systemd and a server version that definitely does not
> have systemd.

It is, to me, nonsensical to suggest that systemd has no utility in a 
server context. I mean, the TC member most enthusiastic about adopting 
systemd, who even took the trouble to actually *try out the proposed 
successors to sysvinit*, was a large-site server administrator.

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#157526

On Mon, Sep 07, 2015 at 05:29:14PM +1000, Andrew McGlashan wrote:
> On 7/09/2015 7:15 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > Carl didn't overstate half as much as calling systemd a cancer with tentacles.  
> > (Do cancers actually have tentacles??).
> 
> It's plainly obvious, it is exactly what it is.  Read Lennart's own blog
> if you want more proof, it's all there, unless he has taken it down.
> 
> I still tend that there should be a desktop version that may or may not
> optionally have systemd and a server version that definitely does not
> have systemd.  Not that I would support any version with systemd, but
> some seem to see it as a desktop enabler of some sort.
> 
> > I gather Devuan is doing well.  So there are choices.  One of course is stick 
> > with Debian, and work to rename all the libraries whose names cause such 
> > distress. "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."
> 
> And re-branding Monsanto is still ... Monsanto.  Renaming is just hiding
> the facts or at least making them harder to be seen.

Maybe I'm misreading your post but Devuan isn't simply renamed Debian.
>From what I gather from the web site, it's Debian *without* systemd.

-- 

Bob Holtzman
A fair fight is the result of poor planning.

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#157528

On 8/09/2015 5:09 AM, Bob Holtzman wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 07, 2015 at 05:29:14PM +1000, Andrew McGlashan wrote:
>> On 7/09/2015 7:15 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote:
>>> I gather Devuan is doing well.  So there are choices.  One of course is stick 
>>> with Debian, and work to rename all the libraries whose names cause such 
>>> distress. "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

... this bit "A rose....", see further below.

>> And re-branding Monsanto is still ... Monsanto.  Renaming is just hiding
>> the facts or at least making them harder to be seen.
> 
> Maybe I'm misreading your post but Devuan isn't simply renamed Debian.
>>From what I gather from the web site, it's Debian *without* systemd.

Oh no, I wasn't meaning anything to do with Devuan; Lisi mentioned about
renaming systemd related parts, my view is that this would just mask the
fact that it is systemd, in effect an attempt to mislead the users as to
the real facts.

Devuan is very admirable, great work by them.

Kind Regards
AndrewM

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#157530

On Monday 07 September 2015 21:05:26 Andrew McGlashan wrote:
> Lisi mentioned about
> renaming systemd related parts,

No, I mentioned renaming libraries which are used both by systemd and by other 
applications.  If they are not used by other applications, they can simply be 
removed.

Lisi

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#157581

On Tue, Sep 08, 2015 at 06:05:26AM +1000, Andrew McGlashan wrote:
> On 8/09/2015 5:09 AM, Bob Holtzman wrote:
> > On Mon, Sep 07, 2015 at 05:29:14PM +1000, Andrew McGlashan wrote:
> >> On 7/09/2015 7:15 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> >>> I gather Devuan is doing well.  So there are choices.  One of course is stick 
> >>> with Debian, and work to rename all the libraries whose names cause such 
> >>> distress. "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."
> 
> ... this bit "A rose....", see further below.
> 
> >> And re-branding Monsanto is still ... Monsanto.  Renaming is just hiding
> >> the facts or at least making them harder to be seen.
> > 
> > Maybe I'm misreading your post but Devuan isn't simply renamed Debian.
> >>From what I gather from the web site, it's Debian *without* systemd.
> 
> Oh no, I wasn't meaning anything to do with Devuan; Lisi mentioned about
> renaming systemd related parts, my view is that this would just mask the
> fact that it is systemd, in effect an attempt to mislead the users as to
> the real facts.
> 
> Devuan is very admirable, great work by them.

Yup, I did misread it! 

-- 

Bob Holtzman
A fair fight is the result of poor planning.

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#157529

On Monday 07 September 2015 20:09:12 Bob Holtzman wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 07, 2015 at 05:29:14PM +1000, Andrew McGlashan wrote:
> > On 7/09/2015 7:15 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > > Carl didn't overstate half as much as calling systemd a cancer with
> > > tentacles. (Do cancers actually have tentacles??).
> >
> > It's plainly obvious, it is exactly what it is.  Read Lennart's own blog
> > if you want more proof, it's all there, unless he has taken it down.
> >
> > I still tend that there should be a desktop version that may or may not
> > optionally have systemd and a server version that definitely does not
> > have systemd.  Not that I would support any version with systemd, but
> > some seem to see it as a desktop enabler of some sort.
> >
> > > I gather Devuan is doing well.  So there are choices.  One of course is
> > > stick with Debian, and work to rename all the libraries whose names
> > > cause such distress. "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."
> >
> > And re-branding Monsanto is still ... Monsanto.  Renaming is just hiding
> > the facts or at least making them harder to be seen.
>
> Maybe I'm misreading your post but Devuan isn't simply renamed Debian.

If that is addressed at me, yes.  Reread it more slowly.
>
> >From what I gather from the web site, it's Debian *without* systemd.  Yes.

Lisi

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#157484

On 09/06/2015 11:35 AM, Curt wrote:
> On 2015-09-06, Greencopper <greencoppermine@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Systemd is spreading like a cancer striking its ugly tentacles into
>> everything it can get its hands on.
>>
>
> "cancer striking its ugly tentacles into everything it can get its hands
> on"
>
> So pathetically put I wonder if you might not be a sock puppet for the
> other side, mixing metaphors and confusing appendages in order to cast
> doubt upon the mental abilities of the opposition (that is, yourself and
> your minions if we could accept you at face value).
>
> Everything is so confusing.
>
> But while three-year-olds are washing up upon this shore and that face
> down and stiff from *rigor mortis* because they want to get out from
> under the bombs, let's have another long, long circle jerk whine and
> dine about our favorite init systems.
>
> At least we got our priorities straight here, right?

Curt perhaps you are the sock puppet or perhaps you want to be the 
puppet master..Shame on you..
-- 
Debian Jessie - KDE 4.14.2  - EXT4 - AMD64 at sda10
Registered Linux User #380263

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