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Groups > linux.debian.user > #269922 > unrolled thread

Re: about 10th new install of bullseye

Started bygene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net>
First post2024-06-04 12:30 +0200
Last post2024-06-05 23:10 +0200
Articles 20 on this page of 42 — 8 participants

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  Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-04 12:30 +0200
    Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2024-06-04 20:20 +0200
    Re: about 10th new install of bullseye David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-06-05 04:50 +0200
    Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2024-06-05 08:40 +0200
      Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2024-06-05 12:10 +0200
      Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-05 17:00 +0200
        Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-05 17:20 +0200
          Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-05 17:50 +0200
            Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-05 18:10 +0200
            Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Anssi Saari <anssi.saari@debian-user.mail.kapsi.fi> - 2024-06-06 11:50 +0200
        Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2024-06-05 23:50 +0200
          Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-06 04:00 +0200
            Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2024-06-07 00:00 +0200
              Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-07 06:30 +0200
              Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-07 07:20 +0200
                Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-07 13:20 +0200
                  Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-07 14:10 +0200
                  Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-07 14:10 +0200
                Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-07 13:40 +0200
                  Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-07 23:30 +0200
                Re: about 10th new install of bullseye David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-06-08 00:20 +0200
                  Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-08 01:20 +0200
                Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2024-06-08 03:00 +0200
                  Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-08 07:50 +0200
                    Re: about 10th new install of bullseye David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-06-08 09:30 +0200
                      Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-08 21:20 +0200
                        Re: about 10th new install of bullseye David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-06-09 00:10 +0200
                          Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-09 08:10 +0200
                        Snaps and Co [was: about 10th new install of bullseye] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-06-09 07:00 +0200
                    Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2024-06-09 01:30 +0200
                      Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-09 08:20 +0200
                        Re: about 10th new install of bullseye "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2024-06-09 14:00 +0200
                        Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-09 15:00 +0200
                          Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-09 16:20 +0200
                        Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2024-06-09 22:10 +0200
      Re: about 10th new install of bullseye BUT its not Bullseye, its  bookworm! gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-05 17:30 +0200
        Re: about 10th new install of bookworm! Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2024-06-06 00:50 +0200
          Re: about 10th new install of bookworm! gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-06 04:10 +0200
            Re: about 10th new install of bookworm! Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2024-06-06 04:30 +0200
        Re: about 10th new install of bullseye BUT its not Bullseye, its  bookworm! David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-06-06 03:00 +0200
    Re: about 10th new install of bullseye "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2024-06-05 19:20 +0200
      Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-05 23:10 +0200

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#269984

FromDavid Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com>
Date2024-06-08 00:20 +0200
Message-ID<IMQ6d-1lGp-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#269965
On 6/6/24 22:14, gene heskett wrote:
> In experimenting I've found a name clash, there are appprently two 
> orca's. one is a speech synth, one is a slicer for 3d printers I don't 
> use. Typing orca in a shell locks the shell wo any output, for several 
> minutes but comes back to a prompt with a ctl-c, so I've NDC which was 
> being executed. Whatevver, the installation is quite voluminous:
> gene@coyote:~/AppImages$ locate orca |wc -l
> 1560
> 
> So I took orca out, which took gnome out. But now gnomes dependencies 
> will put orca back in. So now I can't run autoremove. So one more time 
> this broken damned bookworm install has bit me in a rear.
> 
> No Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.


Here are my installation notes from when I migrated my daily driver from 
Debian 9 to Debian 11.  It has orca, and orca has never bothered me:

January 9, 2022

1.  Wipe Intel SSD 520 Series 60 GB drive in Intel DQ67SW.  Insert
     debian-11.2.0-amd64-netinst USB flash drive into USB 3.0 port
     adjacent Gigabit port. Boot:

	Debian GNU/Linux installer menu (BIOS mode)
					install
	Language			C
	Continent or region		North America
	Country, territory or area	United States
	Keymap to use			American English
	Hostname			laalaa
	Domain name			tracy.holgerdanske.com
	Root password			********
	Re-enter password		********
	Full name for new user		debian
	Username for your account	debian
	Choose a password		********
	Re-enter password		********
	Select your time zone		Pacific
	Partitioning method		Manual
	  Select a partition...	SCSI1 (0,0,0) (sda) - 60.0 GB ATA INTEL SSDSC2CW06
	    Create partition table	Yes
	  Select a partition...		pri/log 60.0 GB FREE SPACE
	    Create a new partition
	      New partition size	1 GB
	      Type			Primary
	      Location			Beginning
	      Partition settings
		Use as			Ext4 journaling file system
		Mount point		/boot
		Mount options		defaults
		Label			laalaa_boot
		Reserved blocks		5%
		Typical usage		standard
		Bootable flag		on
		Done setting up the partition
	  Select a partition...		pri/log 59.0 GB FREE SPACE
	    Create a new partition
	      New partition size	1 GB
	      Type			Primary
	      Location			Beginning
	      Partition settings
		Use as			physical volume for encryption
		Encryption method	Device-mapper (dm-crypt)
		Encryption		aes
		Key size		256
		IV algorithm		xts-plain64
		Encryption key		Random key
		Erase data		no
		Bootable flag		off
		Done setting up the partition
	  Select a partition...		pri/log 58.0 GB FREE SPACE
	    Create a new partition
	      New partition size	13 GB
	      Type			Primary
	      Location			Beginning
	      Partition settings
		Use as			physical volume for encryption
		Encryption method	Device-mapper (dm-crypt)
		Encryption		aes
		Key size		256
		IV algorithm		xts-plain64
		Encryption key		Passphrase
		Erase data		no
		Bootable flag		off
		Done setting up the partition
	  Configure encrypted volumes
	    Write the changes to disk	Yes
	    Encryption configuration	Create encrypted volumes
	    Devices to encrypt		
	      [*] /dev/sda2 (1000MB; crypto)
	      [*] /dev/sda3 (13000MB; crypt)
	    Continue
	    Encryption configuration	Finish
	    Encryption passphrase	********
	    Re-enter passphrase		********
	  Select a partition...		#1 13.0 GB f ext4
	    Partition settings
	      Use as			Ext4 journaling file system
	      Mount point		/
	      Mount options		defaults
	      Label			laalaa_root
	      Reserved blocks		5%
	      Typical usage		standard
	      Done setting up the partition
	  Finish partitioning and write changes to disk
	    Write the changes to disks	Yes
	Debian archive mirror country	United States
	Debian archive mirror		deb.debian.org
	HTTP proxy information		<blank>
	Package usage survey		No
	Choose software			Debian desktop environment
					    Xfce
					SSH server
					standard system utiilties
	Device for boot loader installation
					/dev/sdb (ata-INTEL_SSDSC2CW060A3_********)
	Installation complete		Continue

     Push and hold power button at POST; release when computer turns
     off.  Remove USB flash drive.

2.  Take image:
<snip>


I may have installed only once in the past 2 years, ~4 months, but I 
have blown up that computer many times.  The key is defense in depth -- 
OS configuration files and data working directories in a networked 
version control system (CVS) with the repository on another computer, OS 
disk images, OS and data backups, IMAP backups of incoming and outgoing 
messages, etc..


Did you ever build that dedicated backup server?  I recall you buying a 
bunch of 2 TB 2.5" SATA SSD's for crazy cheap that turned out to be 
counterfeit, but do not recall any news since then.


David

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#269985

Fromgene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net>
Date2024-06-08 01:20 +0200
Message-ID<IMR2h-1meo-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#269984
On 6/7/24 18:12, David Christensen wrote:
> On 6/6/24 22:14, gene heskett wrote:
>> In experimenting I've found a name clash, there are appprently two 
>> orca's. one is a speech synth, one is a slicer for 3d printers I don't 
>> use. Typing orca in a shell locks the shell wo any output, for several 
>> minutes but comes back to a prompt with a ctl-c, so I've NDC which was 
>> being executed. Whatevver, the installation is quite voluminous:
>> gene@coyote:~/AppImages$ locate orca |wc -l
>> 1560
>>
>> So I took orca out, which took gnome out. But now gnomes dependencies 
>> will put orca back in. So now I can't run autoremove. So one more time 
>> this broken damned bookworm install has bit me in a rear.
>>
>> No Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
> 
> 
> Here are my installation notes from when I migrated my daily driver from 
> Debian 9 to Debian 11.  It has orca, and orca has never bothered me:
> 
> January 9, 2022
> 
> 1.  Wipe Intel SSD 520 Series 60 GB drive in Intel DQ67SW.  Insert
>      debian-11.2.0-amd64-netinst USB flash drive into USB 3.0 port
>      adjacent Gigabit port. Boot:
> 
>      Debian GNU/Linux installer menu (BIOS mode)
>                      install
>      Language            C
>      Continent or region        North America
>      Country, territory or area    United States
>      Keymap to use            American English
>      Hostname            laalaa
>      Domain name            tracy.holgerdanske.com
>      Root password            ********
>      Re-enter password        ********
>      Full name for new user        debian
>      Username for your account    debian
>      Choose a password        ********
>      Re-enter password        ********
>      Select your time zone        Pacific
>      Partitioning method        Manual
>        Select a partition...    SCSI1 (0,0,0) (sda) - 60.0 GB ATA INTEL 
> SSDSC2CW06
>          Create partition table    Yes
>        Select a partition...        pri/log 60.0 GB FREE SPACE
>          Create a new partition
>            New partition size    1 GB
>            Type            Primary
>            Location            Beginning
>            Partition settings
>          Use as            Ext4 journaling file system
>          Mount point        /boot
>          Mount options        defaults
>          Label            laalaa_boot
>          Reserved blocks        5%
>          Typical usage        standard
>          Bootable flag        on
>          Done setting up the partition
>        Select a partition...        pri/log 59.0 GB FREE SPACE
>          Create a new partition
>            New partition size    1 GB
>            Type            Primary
>            Location            Beginning
>            Partition settings
>          Use as            physical volume for encryption
>          Encryption method    Device-mapper (dm-crypt)
>          Encryption        aes
>          Key size        256
>          IV algorithm        xts-plain64
>          Encryption key        Random key
>          Erase data        no
>          Bootable flag        off
>          Done setting up the partition
>        Select a partition...        pri/log 58.0 GB FREE SPACE
>          Create a new partition
>            New partition size    13 GB
>            Type            Primary
>            Location            Beginning
>            Partition settings
>          Use as            physical volume for encryption
>          Encryption method    Device-mapper (dm-crypt)
>          Encryption        aes
>          Key size        256
>          IV algorithm        xts-plain64
>          Encryption key        Passphrase
>          Erase data        no
>          Bootable flag        off
>          Done setting up the partition
>        Configure encrypted volumes
>          Write the changes to disk    Yes
>          Encryption configuration    Create encrypted volumes
>          Devices to encrypt
>            [*] /dev/sda2 (1000MB; crypto)
>            [*] /dev/sda3 (13000MB; crypt)
>          Continue
>          Encryption configuration    Finish
>          Encryption passphrase    ********
>          Re-enter passphrase        ********
>        Select a partition...        #1 13.0 GB f ext4
>          Partition settings
>            Use as            Ext4 journaling file system
>            Mount point        /
>            Mount options        defaults
>            Label            laalaa_root
>            Reserved blocks        5%
>            Typical usage        standard
>            Done setting up the partition
>        Finish partitioning and write changes to disk
>          Write the changes to disks    Yes
>      Debian archive mirror country    United States
>      Debian archive mirror        deb.debian.org
>      HTTP proxy information        <blank>
>      Package usage survey        No
>      Choose software            Debian desktop environment
>                          Xfce
>                      SSH server
>                      standard system utiilties
>      Device for boot loader installation
>                      /dev/sdb (ata-INTEL_SSDSC2CW060A3_********)
>      Installation complete        Continue
> 
>      Push and hold power button at POST; release when computer turns
>      off.  Remove USB flash drive.
> 
> 2.  Take image:
> <snip>
> 
> 
> I may have installed only once in the past 2 years, ~4 months, but I 
> have blown up that computer many times.  The key is defense in depth -- 
> OS configuration files and data working directories in a networked 
> version control system (CVS) with the repository on another computer, OS 
> disk images, OS and data backups, IMAP backups of incoming and outgoing 
> messages, etc..
> 
> 
> Did you ever build that dedicated backup server?  I recall you buying a 
> bunch of 2 TB 2.5" SATA SSD's for crazy cheap that turned out to be 
> counterfeit, but do not recall any news since then.

Those IIRC got stored in the round file, and I bought a big pile of 2T 
gigastones that were good. The raid10 and all it samsung 870 1T drives 
is still working despite 2 of the 4 samsungs reporting lots of errors, 
its been rsynced to one of the gigastones and fstab adjusted to make it 
/home. That had zero effect on the 30 second or more lockup opening a 
gfx file for editing. But I've had 3d printer problems in wholesale 
qty's, so no actual progress on the pi cloned backup server has been 
made.  The 3d printer probs are preventing the launch of a small 
business because of the delays in making product.>
> 
> David

Thanks David.

> .

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis

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#269986

FromTom Dial <tddial@comcast.net>
Date2024-06-08 03:00 +0200
Message-ID<IMSB3-1mYh-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#269965

On 6/6/24 23:14, gene heskett wrote:
> On 6/6/24 19:00, Tom Dial wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 6/5/24 19:53, gene heskett wrote:
>>> On 6/5/24 17:25, Tom Dial wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 6/5/24 08:58, gene heskett wrote:
>>>>> On 6/5/24 02:05, Tom Dial wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6/4/24 04:26, gene heskett wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2/19/22 06:31, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi Gene,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If this was someone calling you from a TV station saying they had a TV
>>>>>>>> transmitter that was varying in power output - you'd have a mental checklist.
>>>>>>>> You'd get down there, perhaps schedule some sort of power down / reduced
>>>>>>>> power operation and then you'd check - power supplies, feeder cables, hot
>>>>>>>> spots on cables - whatever. Divide and conquer- working back to a baseline
>>>>>>>> of known working conditions and eliminating causes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My suggestion to you of a reinstall is partly designed to get you out of this
>>>>>>>> "X happens, I did Y, now I've got Z" - to get to a known initial state.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Take out all the serial converters to UPS, lathe and so on. Wireless keyboard
>>>>>>>> doesn't present as serial in the same way that brltty does - if it did, I'd
>>>>>>>> have brltty with every install on this laptop.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Copy off your home directory as you did before - maybe using tar.gz and preserving permissions. Start with the .iso that includes firmware - the unofficial one.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Build back slowly - do an expert text mode install if you can. Then add your
>>>>>>>> Trinity desktop - I don't think any of us can help you there, since we don't
>>>>>>>> run trinity.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Check and you should find that brltty isn't installed at all. Then re-add thingsgradually until you have the working system you want. Document it - write down
>>>>>>>> the steps you take / copy configuration files you change.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That will also reveal logging / login slowdowns or whatever caused by
>>>>>>>> individual devices as you add them back. Keep a list as you go.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's the counsel of perfection: alternatively:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> apt rdepends brltty gives me:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> me@mymachine:~$ apt rdepends brltty
>>>>>>>> brltty
>>>>>>>> Reverse Depends:
>>>>>>>>    Suggests: speechd-el (>= 3.7.2)
>>>>>>>>    Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>    Suggests: orca
>>>>>>>>    Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>    Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>    Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You could try apt-get remove (or equivalent) on each of those packages and
>>>>>>>> see if that clears it. I _know_ this is frustrating as all get out for you
>>>>>>>> but a clear approach, written down so that you can remember where you got
>>>>>>>> to will be very helpful.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any attempt to remove cura or brltty, removes gnome leaving me I assume with a text only system by the time gnome takes all its dependency's with it.  Thanks Tom.
>>>>
>>>> Have you actually tried uninstalling brltty only, as a separate action from all others?
>>>>
>>>> I have a number of gnome installations, unfortunately for this discussion all bookworm. None of them has brltty.
>>>>
>>>> I have a few installations of bullseye and an older stretch installation, but none with gnome installed. On all of them, though, "apt-rdepends -r gnome" fails to list brltty as a gnome dependency. And on the bookworm systems, simulated installation of gnome ("apt install -s gnome") shows brltty as a suggested package only and would not install it along with gnome; on the stretch system, gnome installation makes no reference at all to brltty.
>>>>
>>> While I have both with only the radio buttons for keyboard and rodent plugged into usb at install time. I have only one wired keyboard and no wired mice as I've had a lightning strike on the pole that serves this house reach up and tap me by way of my fingers on the keyboard. Wasn't that much of a tap, I've been tapped a lot harder that that, hard enough to trigger a 6 month round of shingles and the burns were months healing. And in this case did not damage the keyboard or computer, but I did get the message. I've had many strikes on that pole since I built a garage on the end of the house, which caused me to install a 200 amp service and bring my grounding specs up to NEC. Zero problems since then (2008)
>>>
>>>> Is it possible you have apt settings that automatically pull in suggested packages, and that is interfering with attempts to remove brltty? I am not expert enough wrt apt and its relatives to know whether that even makes sense, and it seems a bit far fetched if maybe barely possible.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe if you post the output from "apt-rdepends -r brltty" and "apt purge --simulate brltty" it will be informative.
>>>
>>> Neither of those utils are installed. Should they be?
>>
>> apt should be installed. As far as I know it has been included by default in the Debian base system as the preferred command line package management program since buster or earlier. I have never had to install it. You probably should if it is missing.
>>
>> apt-rdepends is at least partly redundant with apt.
>> The command "apt-rdepends -r <package-name>", and "apt rdepends <package-name>" both show reverse dependencies of <package-name>; the latter also shows suggestions (packages that suggest <package name, I think).
>> If you have apt installed, you probably do not need apt-rdepends.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Tom Dial
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Tom Dial
>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If all else fails, you can then share it with the list and say "I got to
>>>>>>>> step X with no problems, then Y happened - help me out here" and we'll
>>>>>>>> have some better idea. We all jib at you for being vague/not indluding
>>>>>>>> details but otherwise it is all just guesswork for the usual folk that
>>>>>>>> hang out here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All the very best, as ever,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Andy Cater
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How much longer till trixie is officially out??  What you are proposing sounds like several days work, and i have other irons in the fire. This release has been such a disaster for me because the install insists on installing and configuring orca and brltty w/o asking. I've done 40 some installs now, trying to stop it from wasting about a second while its yelling every keystroke at me because it thinks I'm blind. I finally have orca disabled and the computer is useful. The delays are a pain in the a$$ but i can do work now. It is not useful when orca is using 90% of a 6 core I5 yelling at me loud enough to announce and pronounce every keystroke or mouse motion/click loud enough to wake the neighbors.  The first 23 installs never asked me if I wanted that crap. And if you nuked the orca executable it would not reboot but hung forever waiting for orca to start. I have it usable, the installer AFAIAC is broken and I don't want to have to go through all that again. Until 
>>>>>>> the installer ASKS me if I want it because it thinks I am blind, I have only one nerve left and and the suggestion that I do yet another install, is standing on it. Trying to remove it now, it insists on removing gnome and every dependency. I just checked again with synaptic, removing either orca or brltty still wants to destroy the system, Yet all I get when I fuss about the broken installer is "won't fix, not broken'.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Gene,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I, too, am not in need of the services that  brltty or orca provide, and have noticed them hanging about from time to time, although I have not encountered any difficulties like you describe.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On a bullseye system, apt-rdepends -r brltty informs me:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> # apt-rdepends -r brltty
>>>>>> Reading package lists... Done
>>>>>> Building dependency tree... Done
>>>>>> Reading state information... Done
>>>>>> brltty
>>>>>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>> brltty-espeak
>>>>>> brltty-flite
>>>>>> brltty-speechd
>>>>>> brltty-x11
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If I understand apt-rdepends correctly, you should be able to remove/purge brltty ("apt purge brltty") without removing any installed packages other than the four listed above.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> apt-rdepends -r orca tells me:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> # apt-rdepends -r orca
>>>>>> Reading package lists... Done
>>>>>> Building dependency tree... Done
>>>>>> Reading state information... Done
>>>>>> orca
>>>>>>    Reverse Depends: gnome (>= 1:3.38+3)
>>>>>>    Reverse Depends: gnome-orca (3.38.2-2)
>>>>>>    Reverse Depends: orca-sops (1.0.2-2)
>>>>>> gnome
>>>>>> gnome-orca
>>>>>> orca-sops
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So removing orca would also take gnome, and that probably is unacceptable to you. Accordingly, you need to tame orca to find the process that causes it to run and persuade it not to do that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I found, on a bookworm install (I have no bullseye with gnome and orca), that running orca -s from a terminal will bring up a settings panel with a check box for "Enable speech" under the "Speech" tab. Unchecking that box and selecting the "Apply" button will silence Orca. I think that leaves some of its subtasks running, as children of the systemd --user task; I am far from expert here. They do not seem to use significant resources, however.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alternatively, you can find orca's process, for instance, with "ps -ef | grep orca", and kill it. The -HUP signal is enough. Or you can kill its parent process (third column in the ps -ef output) if it is not a necessary one, or maybe teach it how to not start orca in the first place,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I hope this is useful. Things like this can be very annoying.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Tom Dial
>>>
>>> Thank you Tom
>>>
>>> Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
> In experimenting I've found a name clash, there are appprently two orca's. one is a speech synth, one is a slicer for 3d printers I don't use. Typing orca in a shell locks the shell wo any output, for several minutes but comes back to a prompt with a ctl-c, so I've NDC which was being executed. Whatevver, the installation is quite voluminous:
> gene@coyote:~/AppImages$ locate orca |wc -l
> 1560

The output of "which orca" would have told you the path to the orca program you ran. The orca program (Python script) that Debian installs with gnome is /usr/bin/orca.

With the orca that Debian installs along with gnome, typing "orca" in a command line and hitting the <Enter> key starts orca in its working mode. To get the GUI settings panel, you have to use "orca -s". See the orca man page for setup details.

orca's normal run mode is in the background with no screen presence
> 
> So I took orca out, which took gnome out. But now gnomes dependencies will put orca back in. So now I can't run autoremove. So one more time this broken damned bookworm install has bit me in a rear.

It appears you had more than one orca, different programs and for different, unrelated purposes. Debian installed only one of them. The other, hinted by the directory in which you ran the locate command, presumably was installed by you, and may be part of an AppImage. Or maybe it is the same orca, but installed with an appimage. I don't use AppImage packages knowingly, and only use non-distribution packages very sparingly, so have little to contribute on that subject.

You stated above that the "other" - non-Debian - orca was for 3D printers you don't use. That suggests you could remove it without interfering with anything.

But you removed orca - the Debian-installed one - and just as apt (or apt-get) said when you did it, it removed gnome. And the result was unsatisfactory, as I said it probably would be in an earlier message on this thread.

The obvious solution is remove the other - non-Debian - orca, with whatever tools are appropriate to that. Then reinstall gnome. As you said, that will reinstall orca as a dependency. But once it is done, you can tune orca - the Debian one - to be less obtrusive, or even silent, in the way I described earlier.

If, for reasons, you can't remove the non-Debian orca, it might not even matter, since it silencing the Debian one is pretty easy.

Regards,
Tom Dial
> 
> No Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.

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#269991

Fromgene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net>
Date2024-06-08 07:50 +0200
Message-ID<IMX7H-1pPF-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#269986
On 6/7/24 20:38, Tom Dial wrote:
> 
> 
> On 6/6/24 23:14, gene heskett wrote:
>> On 6/6/24 19:00, Tom Dial wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/5/24 19:53, gene heskett wrote:
>>>> On 6/5/24 17:25, Tom Dial wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 6/5/24 08:58, gene heskett wrote:
>>>>>> On 6/5/24 02:05, Tom Dial wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 6/4/24 04:26, gene heskett wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2/19/22 06:31, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi Gene,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If this was someone calling you from a TV station saying they 
>>>>>>>>> had a TV
>>>>>>>>> transmitter that was varying in power output - you'd have a 
>>>>>>>>> mental checklist.
>>>>>>>>> You'd get down there, perhaps schedule some sort of power down 
>>>>>>>>> / reduced
>>>>>>>>> power operation and then you'd check - power supplies, feeder 
>>>>>>>>> cables, hot
>>>>>>>>> spots on cables - whatever. Divide and conquer- working back to 
>>>>>>>>> a baseline
>>>>>>>>> of known working conditions and eliminating causes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My suggestion to you of a reinstall is partly designed to get 
>>>>>>>>> you out of this
>>>>>>>>> "X happens, I did Y, now I've got Z" - to get to a known 
>>>>>>>>> initial state.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Take out all the serial converters to UPS, lathe and so on. 
>>>>>>>>> Wireless keyboard
>>>>>>>>> doesn't present as serial in the same way that brltty does - if 
>>>>>>>>> it did, I'd
>>>>>>>>> have brltty with every install on this laptop.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Copy off your home directory as you did before - maybe using 
>>>>>>>>> tar.gz and preserving permissions. Start with the .iso that 
>>>>>>>>> includes firmware - the unofficial one.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Build back slowly - do an expert text mode install if you can. 
>>>>>>>>> Then add your
>>>>>>>>> Trinity desktop - I don't think any of us can help you there, 
>>>>>>>>> since we don't
>>>>>>>>> run trinity.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Check and you should find that brltty isn't installed at all. 
>>>>>>>>> Then re-add thingsgradually until you have the working system 
>>>>>>>>> you want. Document it - write down
>>>>>>>>> the steps you take / copy configuration files you change.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That will also reveal logging / login slowdowns or whatever 
>>>>>>>>> caused by
>>>>>>>>> individual devices as you add them back. Keep a list as you go.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That's the counsel of perfection: alternatively:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> apt rdepends brltty gives me:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> me@mymachine:~$ apt rdepends brltty
>>>>>>>>> brltty
>>>>>>>>> Reverse Depends:
>>>>>>>>>    Suggests: speechd-el (>= 3.7.2)
>>>>>>>>>    Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>>    Suggests: orca
>>>>>>>>>    Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>>    Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>>    Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You could try apt-get remove (or equivalent) on each of those 
>>>>>>>>> packages and
>>>>>>>>> see if that clears it. I _know_ this is frustrating as all get 
>>>>>>>>> out for you
>>>>>>>>> but a clear approach, written down so that you can remember 
>>>>>>>>> where you got
>>>>>>>>> to will be very helpful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any attempt to remove cura or brltty, removes gnome leaving me I 
>>>>>> assume with a text only system by the time gnome takes all its 
>>>>>> dependency's with it.  Thanks Tom.
>>>>>
>>>>> Have you actually tried uninstalling brltty only, as a separate 
>>>>> action from all others?
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a number of gnome installations, unfortunately for this 
>>>>> discussion all bookworm. None of them has brltty.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a few installations of bullseye and an older stretch 
>>>>> installation, but none with gnome installed. On all of them, 
>>>>> though, "apt-rdepends -r gnome" fails to list brltty as a gnome 
>>>>> dependency. And on the bookworm systems, simulated installation of 
>>>>> gnome ("apt install -s gnome") shows brltty as a suggested package 
>>>>> only and would not install it along with gnome; on the stretch 
>>>>> system, gnome installation makes no reference at all to brltty.
>>>>>
>>>> While I have both with only the radio buttons for keyboard and 
>>>> rodent plugged into usb at install time. I have only one wired 
>>>> keyboard and no wired mice as I've had a lightning strike on the 
>>>> pole that serves this house reach up and tap me by way of my fingers 
>>>> on the keyboard. Wasn't that much of a tap, I've been tapped a lot 
>>>> harder that that, hard enough to trigger a 6 month round of shingles 
>>>> and the burns were months healing. And in this case did not damage 
>>>> the keyboard or computer, but I did get the message. I've had many 
>>>> strikes on that pole since I built a garage on the end of the house, 
>>>> which caused me to install a 200 amp service and bring my grounding 
>>>> specs up to NEC. Zero problems since then (2008)
>>>>
>>>>> Is it possible you have apt settings that automatically pull in 
>>>>> suggested packages, and that is interfering with attempts to remove 
>>>>> brltty? I am not expert enough wrt apt and its relatives to know 
>>>>> whether that even makes sense, and it seems a bit far fetched if 
>>>>> maybe barely possible.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe if you post the output from "apt-rdepends -r brltty" and "apt 
>>>>> purge --simulate brltty" it will be informative.
>>>>
>>>> Neither of those utils are installed. Should they be?
>>>
>>> apt should be installed. As far as I know it has been included by 
>>> default in the Debian base system as the preferred command line 
>>> package management program since buster or earlier. I have never had 
>>> to install it. You probably should if it is missing.
>>>
>>> apt-rdepends is at least partly redundant with apt.
>>> The command "apt-rdepends -r <package-name>", and "apt rdepends 
>>> <package-name>" both show reverse dependencies of <package-name>; the 
>>> latter also shows suggestions (packages that suggest <package name, I 
>>> think).
>>> If you have apt installed, you probably do not need apt-rdepends.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Tom Dial
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Tom Dial
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If all else fails, you can then share it with the list and say 
>>>>>>>>> "I got to
>>>>>>>>> step X with no problems, then Y happened - help me out here" 
>>>>>>>>> and we'll
>>>>>>>>> have some better idea. We all jib at you for being vague/not 
>>>>>>>>> indluding
>>>>>>>>> details but otherwise it is all just guesswork for the usual 
>>>>>>>>> folk that
>>>>>>>>> hang out here.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> All the very best, as ever,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Andy Cater
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How much longer till trixie is officially out??  What you are 
>>>>>>>> proposing sounds like several days work, and i have other irons 
>>>>>>>> in the fire. This release has been such a disaster for me 
>>>>>>>> because the install insists on installing and configuring orca 
>>>>>>>> and brltty w/o asking. I've done 40 some installs now, trying to 
>>>>>>>> stop it from wasting about a second while its yelling every 
>>>>>>>> keystroke at me because it thinks I'm blind. I finally have orca 
>>>>>>>> disabled and the computer is useful. The delays are a pain in 
>>>>>>>> the a$$ but i can do work now. It is not useful when orca is 
>>>>>>>> using 90% of a 6 core I5 yelling at me loud enough to announce 
>>>>>>>> and pronounce every keystroke or mouse motion/click loud enough 
>>>>>>>> to wake the neighbors.  The first 23 installs never asked me if 
>>>>>>>> I wanted that crap. And if you nuked the orca executable it 
>>>>>>>> would not reboot but hung forever waiting for orca to start. I 
>>>>>>>> have it usable, the installer AFAIAC is broken and I don't want 
>>>>>>>> to have to go through all that again. Until the installer ASKS 
>>>>>>>> me if I want it because it thinks I am blind, I have only one 
>>>>>>>> nerve left and and the suggestion that I do yet another install, 
>>>>>>>> is standing on it. Trying to remove it now, it insists on 
>>>>>>>> removing gnome and every dependency. I just checked again with 
>>>>>>>> synaptic, removing either orca or brltty still wants to destroy 
>>>>>>>> the system, Yet all I get when I fuss about the broken installer 
>>>>>>>> is "won't fix, not broken'.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Gene,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I, too, am not in need of the services that  brltty or orca 
>>>>>>> provide, and have noticed them hanging about from time to time, 
>>>>>>> although I have not encountered any difficulties like you describe.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On a bullseye system, apt-rdepends -r brltty informs me:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> # apt-rdepends -r brltty
>>>>>>> Reading package lists... Done
>>>>>>> Building dependency tree... Done
>>>>>>> Reading state information... Done
>>>>>>> brltty
>>>>>>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>> brltty-espeak
>>>>>>> brltty-flite
>>>>>>> brltty-speechd
>>>>>>> brltty-x11
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If I understand apt-rdepends correctly, you should be able to 
>>>>>>> remove/purge brltty ("apt purge brltty") without removing any 
>>>>>>> installed packages other than the four listed above.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> apt-rdepends -r orca tells me:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> # apt-rdepends -r orca
>>>>>>> Reading package lists... Done
>>>>>>> Building dependency tree... Done
>>>>>>> Reading state information... Done
>>>>>>> orca
>>>>>>>    Reverse Depends: gnome (>= 1:3.38+3)
>>>>>>>    Reverse Depends: gnome-orca (3.38.2-2)
>>>>>>>    Reverse Depends: orca-sops (1.0.2-2)
>>>>>>> gnome
>>>>>>> gnome-orca
>>>>>>> orca-sops
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So removing orca would also take gnome, and that probably is 
>>>>>>> unacceptable to you. Accordingly, you need to tame orca to find 
>>>>>>> the process that causes it to run and persuade it not to do that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I found, on a bookworm install (I have no bullseye with gnome and 
>>>>>>> orca), that running orca -s from a terminal will bring up a 
>>>>>>> settings panel with a check box for "Enable speech" under the 
>>>>>>> "Speech" tab. Unchecking that box and selecting the "Apply" 
>>>>>>> button will silence Orca. I think that leaves some of its 
>>>>>>> subtasks running, as children of the systemd --user task; I am 
>>>>>>> far from expert here. They do not seem to use significant 
>>>>>>> resources, however.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Alternatively, you can find orca's process, for instance, with 
>>>>>>> "ps -ef | grep orca", and kill it. The -HUP signal is enough. Or 
>>>>>>> you can kill its parent process (third column in the ps -ef 
>>>>>>> output) if it is not a necessary one, or maybe teach it how to 
>>>>>>> not start orca in the first place,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I hope this is useful. Things like this can be very annoying.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Tom Dial
>>>>
>>>> Thank you Tom
>>>>
>>>> Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
>> In experimenting I've found a name clash, there are appprently two 
>> orca's. one is a speech synth, one is a slicer for 3d printers I don't 
>> use. Typing orca in a shell locks the shell wo any output, for several 
>> minutes but comes back to a prompt with a ctl-c, so I've NDC which was 
>> being executed. Whatevver, the installation is quite voluminous:
>> gene@coyote:~/AppImages$ locate orca |wc -l
>> 1560
> 
> The output of "which orca" would have told you the path to the orca 
> program you ran. The orca program (Python script) that Debian installs 
> with gnome is /usr/bin/orca.
> 
> With the orca that Debian installs along with gnome, typing "orca" in a 
> command line and hitting the <Enter> key starts orca in its working 
> mode. To get the GUI settings panel, you have to use "orca -s". See the 
> orca man page for setup details.
> 
> orca's normal run mode is in the background with no screen presence
>>
>> So I took orca out, which took gnome out. But now gnomes dependencies 
>> will put orca back in. So now I can't run autoremove. So one more time 
>> this broken damned bookworm install has bit me in a rear.
> 
> It appears you had more than one orca, different programs and for 
> different, unrelated purposes. Debian installed only one of them. The 
> other, hinted by the directory in which you ran the locate command, 
> presumably was installed by you, and may be part of an AppImage. Or 
> maybe it is the same orca, but installed with an appimage. I don't use 
> AppImage packages knowingly, and only use non-distribution packages very 
> sparingly, so have little to contribute on that subject.

I OTOH, have found AppImages a good way to get uptodate, and keep 
uptodate, packages like OpenSCAD, FreeCAD and the miriad 3d slicers, 
most of which do a new AppImage in the first week of the month. So the 
OpenSCAD I'm running is nearly 4 years newer than the repo version, and 
probably 20x faster.
> 
> You stated above that the "other" - non-Debian - orca was for 3D 
> printers you don't use. That suggests you could remove it without 
> interfering with anything.

It was an AppImage, rm-able.

> But you removed orca - the Debian-installed one - and just as apt (or 
> apt-get) said when you did it, it removed gnome. And the result was 
> unsatisfactory, as I said it probably would be in an earlier message on 
> this thread.
> 
> The obvious solution is remove the other - non-Debian - Orca, note uppercase with 
> whatever tools are appropriate to that. Then reinstall gnome. As you 
> said, that will reinstall orca as a dependency. But once it is done, you 
> can tune orca - the Debian one - to be less obtrusive, or even silent, 
> in the way I described earlier.

> 
> If, for reasons, you can't remove the non-Debian orca, it might not even 
> matter, since it silencing the Debian one is pretty easy

That I did not find easy. Disabling it also removes the ability to 
reboot as the boot hangs forever waiting for orca to start, quite early 
in the boot.  That little detail is responsible for the first 23 
re-installs.
.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Dial

Thanks Tom.

No Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis

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#269992

FromDavid Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com>
Date2024-06-08 09:30 +0200
Message-ID<IMYGt-1qQI-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#269991
On 6/7/24 22:41, gene heskett wrote:
> I OTOH, have found AppImages a good way to get uptodate, and keep 
> uptodate, packages like OpenSCAD, FreeCAD and the miriad 3d slicers, 
> most of which do a new AppImage in the first week of the month. So the 
> OpenSCAD I'm running is nearly 4 years newer than the repo version, and 
> probably 20x faster.


I have found that installing software on Debian by any means other than 
official Debian packages is a recipe for disaster.


I sometimes write Perl code that runs as root.  I use VirtualBox and do 
my development and testing on virtual machines.  Oracle provides Debian 
packages and integrates with sources.list(5) and apt-get(8).  See 
"Debian-based Linux distributions":

https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Linux_Downloads


If you installed VirtualBox on your Debian primary workstation, you 
could create one Debian VM for each of your engineering/ manufacturing 
apps.  This would give each app a clean Debian VM for installation, 
prevent apps from fighting each other, and prevent apps from modifying 
your base Debian installation.


David

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#269996

Fromgene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net>
Date2024-06-08 21:20 +0200
Message-ID<IN9Lz-1xxe-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#269992
On 6/8/24 03:22, David Christensen wrote:
> On 6/7/24 22:41, gene heskett wrote:
>> I OTOH, have found AppImages a good way to get uptodate, and keep 
>> uptodate, packages like OpenSCAD, FreeCAD and the miriad 3d slicers, 
>> most of which do a new AppImage in the first week of the month. So the 
>> OpenSCAD I'm running is nearly 4 years newer than the repo version, 
>> and probably 20x faster.
> 
> 
> I have found that installing software on Debian by any means other than 
> official Debian packages is a recipe for disaster.
> 
> 
> I sometimes write Perl code that runs as root.  I use VirtualBox and do 
> my development and testing on virtual machines.  Oracle provides Debian 
> packages and integrates with sources.list(5) and apt-get(8).  See 
> "Debian-based Linux distributions":
> 
> https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Linux_Downloads
> 
> 
> If you installed VirtualBox on your Debian primary workstation, you 
> could create one Debian VM for each of your engineering/ manufacturing 
> apps.  This would give each app a clean Debian VM for installation, 
> prevent apps from fighting each other, and prevent apps from modifying 
> your base Debian installation.
> 
> 
> David
> 
It is quite rare that a snap, appimage, or venv needs anything from the 
system. Memory or storage is generally done at whatever venv is started 
as the user. That venv equ is generally what they all claim to do. I see 
your reticence to make use of them as a restriction.
> .

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis

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#269999

FromDavid Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com>
Date2024-06-09 00:10 +0200
Message-ID<INcq5-1zdF-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#269996
On 6/8/24 12:13, gene heskett wrote:
> On 6/8/24 03:22, David Christensen wrote:
>> If you installed VirtualBox on your Debian primary workstation, you 
>> could create one Debian VM for each of your engineering/ manufacturing 
>> apps.  This would give each app a clean Debian VM for installation, 
>> prevent apps from fighting each other, and prevent apps from modifying 
>> your base Debian installation.
>>
> It is quite rare that a snap, appimage, or venv needs anything from the 
> system. Memory or storage is generally done at whatever venv is started 
> as the user. That venv equ is generally what they all claim to do. I see 
> your reticence to make use of them as a restriction.


My suggestion is a variation of the "divide and conquer" troubleshooting 
strategy.


I am not familiar with snap, appimage, or venv.  Regardless of the 
software distribution mechanism, I expect that each app is developed and 
tested against a list of supported OS's and releases using VM's.  If you 
provide each app with its own VM containing a supported OS and release, 
the app should install and work correctly.  And, your base Debian 
installation should remain stable.


David

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#270007

Fromgene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net>
Date2024-06-09 08:10 +0200
Message-ID<INjUB-1DUJ-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#269999
On 6/8/24 18:02, David Christensen wrote:
> On 6/8/24 12:13, gene heskett wrote:
>> On 6/8/24 03:22, David Christensen wrote:
>>> If you installed VirtualBox on your Debian primary workstation, you 
>>> could create one Debian VM for each of your engineering/ 
>>> manufacturing apps.  This would give each app a clean Debian VM for 
>>> installation, prevent apps from fighting each other, and prevent apps 
>>> from modifying your base Debian installation.
>>>
>> It is quite rare that a snap, appimage, or venv needs anything from 
>> the system. Memory or storage is generally done at whatever venv is 
>> started as the user. That venv equ is generally what they all claim to 
>> do. I see your reticence to make use of them as a restriction.
> 
> 
> My suggestion is a variation of the "divide and conquer" troubleshooting 
> strategy.
> 
> 
> I am not familiar with snap, appimage, or venv.  Regardless of the 
> software distribution mechanism, I expect that each app is developed and 
> tested against a list of supported OS's and releases using VM's.  If you 
> provide each app with its own VM containing a supported OS and release, 
> the app should install and work correctly.  And, your base Debian 
> installation should remain stable.
> 
That it is not, locking up about every 10 days switching workspaces, 
locking with what would be horizontal synch bar in an NTSC system, 
frozen at some random location on the screen. Mouse pointer is alive and 
moves with the mouse, but buttons are inactive, Cycle the power or press 
the front panel reset for 4+ seconds to reboot. I've also asked about 
that several times, without a reply. Memtest86, V9.4 says my 32Gigs is 
clean. Video is built into the mainboard, Intel of some sort I believe. 
Compared to the other problem I have, fixing this is not a very high 
priority. But I need sleep, so good night.  Take care & stay well, David.>
> David
> 
> .

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis

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#270004 — Snaps and Co [was: about 10th new install of bullseye]

From<tomas@tuxteam.de>
Date2024-06-09 07:00 +0200
SubjectSnaps and Co [was: about 10th new install of bullseye]
Message-ID<INiOS-1D2i-25@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#269996

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Sat, Jun 08, 2024 at 03:13:21PM -0400, gene heskett wrote:

[...]

> [...] That venv equ is generally what they all claim to do. I see your
> reticence to make use of them as a restriction.

I'm also firmly in that restricted camp.

One of the things I appreciate distributions (and Debian in particular)
is that they are a kind of "contract" (in Debian, it's even stated
explicitly with the Social Contract).

Things are packaged in a specific way, there are some principles the
distro tries to follow, etc.

So this makes things easier for you, the user. Less surprises.

Snaps, AppImages, etc. just "use" [1] this social construct as an
infrastructure and bring their world with them -- without even trying
to mesh, let alone to give back.

That's why I tend to stay away from them.

Don't get me wrong: on a technical level they are cute (and have been
reinvented time and again, the first I know of is Tcl's starkit, around
2002), and they have their uses, but as a distribution model I avoid
them for social reasons.

Cheers

[1] I have a significantly harsher term for that, but I'm trying hard
to stay polite.

-- 
t

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#270000

FromTom Dial <tddial@comcast.net>
Date2024-06-09 01:30 +0200
Message-ID<INdFv-1zSx-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#269991

On 6/7/24 23:41, gene heskett wrote:
> On 6/7/24 20:38, Tom Dial wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 6/6/24 23:14, gene heskett wrote:
>>> On 6/6/24 19:00, Tom Dial wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 6/5/24 19:53, gene heskett wrote:
>>>>> On 6/5/24 17:25, Tom Dial wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6/5/24 08:58, gene heskett wrote:
>>>>>>> On 6/5/24 02:05, Tom Dial wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 6/4/24 04:26, gene heskett wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2/19/22 06:31, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Gene,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If this was someone calling you from a TV station saying they had a TV
>>>>>>>>>> transmitter that was varying in power output - you'd have a mental checklist.
>>>>>>>>>> You'd get down there, perhaps schedule some sort of power down / reduced
>>>>>>>>>> power operation and then you'd check - power supplies, feeder cables, hot
>>>>>>>>>> spots on cables - whatever. Divide and conquer- working back to a baseline
>>>>>>>>>> of known working conditions and eliminating causes.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My suggestion to you of a reinstall is partly designed to get you out of this
>>>>>>>>>> "X happens, I did Y, now I've got Z" - to get to a known initial state.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Take out all the serial converters to UPS, lathe and so on. Wireless keyboard
>>>>>>>>>> doesn't present as serial in the same way that brltty does - if it did, I'd
>>>>>>>>>> have brltty with every install on this laptop.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Copy off your home directory as you did before - maybe using tar.gz and preserving permissions. Start with the .iso that includes firmware - the unofficial one.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Build back slowly - do an expert text mode install if you can. Then add your
>>>>>>>>>> Trinity desktop - I don't think any of us can help you there, since we don't
>>>>>>>>>> run trinity.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Check and you should find that brltty isn't installed at all. Then re-add thingsgradually until you have the working system you want. Document it - write down
>>>>>>>>>> the steps you take / copy configuration files you change.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That will also reveal logging / login slowdowns or whatever caused by
>>>>>>>>>> individual devices as you add them back. Keep a list as you go.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That's the counsel of perfection: alternatively:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> apt rdepends brltty gives me:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> me@mymachine:~$ apt rdepends brltty
>>>>>>>>>> brltty
>>>>>>>>>> Reverse Depends:
>>>>>>>>>>    Suggests: speechd-el (>= 3.7.2)
>>>>>>>>>>    Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>>>    Suggests: orca
>>>>>>>>>>    Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>>>    Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>>>    Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You could try apt-get remove (or equivalent) on each of those packages and
>>>>>>>>>> see if that clears it. I _know_ this is frustrating as all get out for you
>>>>>>>>>> but a clear approach, written down so that you can remember where you got
>>>>>>>>>> to will be very helpful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any attempt to remove cura or brltty, removes gnome leaving me I assume with a text only system by the time gnome takes all its dependency's with it.  Thanks Tom.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Have you actually tried uninstalling brltty only, as a separate action from all others?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have a number of gnome installations, unfortunately for this discussion all bookworm. None of them has brltty.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have a few installations of bullseye and an older stretch installation, but none with gnome installed. On all of them, though, "apt-rdepends -r gnome" fails to list brltty as a gnome dependency. And on the bookworm systems, simulated installation of gnome ("apt install -s gnome") shows brltty as a suggested package only and would not install it along with gnome; on the stretch system, gnome installation makes no reference at all to brltty.
>>>>>>
>>>>> While I have both with only the radio buttons for keyboard and rodent plugged into usb at install time. I have only one wired keyboard and no wired mice as I've had a lightning strike on the pole that serves this house reach up and tap me by way of my fingers on the keyboard. Wasn't that much of a tap, I've been tapped a lot harder that that, hard enough to trigger a 6 month round of shingles and the burns were months healing. And in this case did not damage the keyboard or computer, but I did get the message. I've had many strikes on that pole since I built a garage on the end of the house, which caused me to install a 200 amp service and bring my grounding specs up to NEC. Zero problems since then (2008)
>>>>>
>>>>>> Is it possible you have apt settings that automatically pull in suggested packages, and that is interfering with attempts to remove brltty? I am not expert enough wrt apt and its relatives to know whether that even makes sense, and it seems a bit far fetched if maybe barely possible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe if you post the output from "apt-rdepends -r brltty" and "apt purge --simulate brltty" it will be informative.
>>>>>
>>>>> Neither of those utils are installed. Should they be?
>>>>
>>>> apt should be installed. As far as I know it has been included by default in the Debian base system as the preferred command line package management program since buster or earlier. I have never had to install it. You probably should if it is missing.
>>>>
>>>> apt-rdepends is at least partly redundant with apt.
>>>> The command "apt-rdepends -r <package-name>", and "apt rdepends <package-name>" both show reverse dependencies of <package-name>; the latter also shows suggestions (packages that suggest <package name, I think).
>>>> If you have apt installed, you probably do not need apt-rdepends.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Tom Dial
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Tom Dial
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If all else fails, you can then share it with the list and say "I got to
>>>>>>>>>> step X with no problems, then Y happened - help me out here" and we'll
>>>>>>>>>> have some better idea. We all jib at you for being vague/not indluding
>>>>>>>>>> details but otherwise it is all just guesswork for the usual folk that
>>>>>>>>>> hang out here.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> All the very best, as ever,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Andy Cater
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How much longer till trixie is officially out??  What you are proposing sounds like several days work, and i have other irons in the fire. This release has been such a disaster for me because the install insists on installing and configuring orca and brltty w/o asking. I've done 40 some installs now, trying to stop it from wasting about a second while its yelling every keystroke at me because it thinks I'm blind. I finally have orca disabled and the computer is useful. The delays are a pain in the a$$ but i can do work now. It is not useful when orca is using 90% of a 6 core I5 yelling at me loud enough to announce and pronounce every keystroke or mouse motion/click loud enough to wake the neighbors.  The first 23 installs never asked me if I wanted that crap. And if you nuked the orca executable it would not reboot but hung forever waiting for orca to start. I have it usable, the installer AFAIAC is broken and I don't want to have to go through all that again. Until 
>>>>>>>>> the installer ASKS me if I want it because it thinks I am blind, I have only one nerve left and and the suggestion that I do yet another install, is standing on it. Trying to remove it now, it insists on removing gnome and every dependency. I just checked again with synaptic, removing either orca or brltty still wants to destroy the system, Yet all I get when I fuss about the broken installer is "won't fix, not broken'.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Gene,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I, too, am not in need of the services that  brltty or orca provide, and have noticed them hanging about from time to time, although I have not encountered any difficulties like you describe.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On a bullseye system, apt-rdepends -r brltty informs me:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> # apt-rdepends -r brltty
>>>>>>>> Reading package lists... Done
>>>>>>>> Building dependency tree... Done
>>>>>>>> Reading state information... Done
>>>>>>>> brltty
>>>>>>>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>> brltty-espeak
>>>>>>>> brltty-flite
>>>>>>>> brltty-speechd
>>>>>>>> brltty-x11
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If I understand apt-rdepends correctly, you should be able to remove/purge brltty ("apt purge brltty") without removing any installed packages other than the four listed above.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> apt-rdepends -r orca tells me:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> # apt-rdepends -r orca
>>>>>>>> Reading package lists... Done
>>>>>>>> Building dependency tree... Done
>>>>>>>> Reading state information... Done
>>>>>>>> orca
>>>>>>>>    Reverse Depends: gnome (>= 1:3.38+3)
>>>>>>>>    Reverse Depends: gnome-orca (3.38.2-2)
>>>>>>>>    Reverse Depends: orca-sops (1.0.2-2)
>>>>>>>> gnome
>>>>>>>> gnome-orca
>>>>>>>> orca-sops
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So removing orca would also take gnome, and that probably is unacceptable to you. Accordingly, you need to tame orca to find the process that causes it to run and persuade it not to do that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I found, on a bookworm install (I have no bullseye with gnome and orca), that running orca -s from a terminal will bring up a settings panel with a check box for "Enable speech" under the "Speech" tab. Unchecking that box and selecting the "Apply" button will silence Orca. I think that leaves some of its subtasks running, as children of the systemd --user task; I am far from expert here. They do not seem to use significant resources, however.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Alternatively, you can find orca's process, for instance, with "ps -ef | grep orca", and kill it. The -HUP signal is enough. Or you can kill its parent process (third column in the ps -ef output) if it is not a necessary one, or maybe teach it how to not start orca in the first place,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I hope this is useful. Things like this can be very annoying.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> Tom Dial
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you Tom
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
>>> In experimenting I've found a name clash, there are appprently two orca's. one is a speech synth, one is a slicer for 3d printers I don't use. Typing orca in a shell locks the shell wo any output, for several minutes but comes back to a prompt with a ctl-c, so I've NDC which was being executed. Whatevver, the installation is quite voluminous:
>>> gene@coyote:~/AppImages$ locate orca |wc -l
>>> 1560
>>
>> The output of "which orca" would have told you the path to the orca program you ran. The orca program (Python script) that Debian installs with gnome is /usr/bin/orca.
>>
>> With the orca that Debian installs along with gnome, typing "orca" in a command line and hitting the <Enter> key starts orca in its working mode. To get the GUI settings panel, you have to use "orca -s". See the orca man page for setup details.
>>
>> orca's normal run mode is in the background with no screen presence
>>>
>>> So I took orca out, which took gnome out. But now gnomes dependencies will put orca back in. So now I can't run autoremove. So one more time this broken damned bookworm install has bit me in a rear.
>>
>> It appears you had more than one orca, different programs and for different, unrelated purposes. Debian installed only one of them. The other, hinted by the directory in which you ran the locate command, presumably was installed by you, and may be part of an AppImage. Or maybe it is the same orca, but installed with an appimage. I don't use AppImage packages knowingly, and only use non-distribution packages very sparingly, so have little to contribute on that subject.
> 
> I OTOH, have found AppImages a good way to get uptodate, and keep uptodate, packages like OpenSCAD, FreeCAD and the miriad 3d slicers, most of which do a new AppImage in the first week of the month. So the OpenSCAD I'm running is nearly 4 years newer than the repo version, and probably 20x faster.

>>
>> You stated above that the "other" - non-Debian - orca was for 3D printers you don't use. That suggests you could remove it without interfering with anything.
> 
> It was an AppImage, rm-able.ff> 
>> But you removed orca - the Debian-installed one - and just as apt (or apt-get) said when you did it, it removed gnome. And the result was unsatisfactory, as I said it probably would be in an earlier message on this thread.
>>
>> The obvious solution is remove the other - non-Debian - Orca, note uppercase with whatever tools are appropriate to that. Then reinstall gnome. As you said, that will reinstall orca as a dependency. But once it is done, you can tune orca - the Debian one - to be less obtrusive, or even silent, in the way I described earlier.

> 
>>
>> If, for reasons, you can't remove the non-Debian orca, it might not even matter, since it silencing the Debian one is pretty easy
> 
> That I did not find easy. Disabling it also removes the ability to reboot as the boot hangs forever waiting for orca to start, quite early in the boot.  That little detail is responsible for the first 23 re-installs.

I don't oppose appimage use, except on a sort of vague esthetic basis or misplaced/unnecessary concern with resource use "efficiency." They certainly have valid use cases.

At this point, I have no idea about the state of your system, so recommend:

Restore the system to the point where it has the software installed that you want, plus gnome, plus the orca that came with gnome. Make sure brltty is gone, since you don't want it.

     apt purge brltty --yes

Reboot.

(Probably unnecessary, but it won't hurt and will ensure the system is in a fairly normal state).

Log on to your account and disable orca speech:

     orca -s &

In 5 - 10 seconds, the "Screen Reader Preferences" panel should be displayed, with 8 tabs under the title. Left-click the "Speech" tab and make sure the "Enable speech" box is unchecked. Then left-click the "Apply" button at the bottom of the panel, and after that the "OK" button. The preferences panel will close in a few seconds.

Orca should no longer read screens. And the change should be persistent across logins and reboots: the settings are saved in your ~/.local/share/orca/ for later.

You also could take care of orca for the current session by

     killall orca

but it would not be persistent across logins.

Also see
     https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
     https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/commands_speech_settings.html.en

On your system:
     man orca
     /usr/share/doc/orca/README

I won't say it's the best documentation I have seen, but it is documentation, and better than some.


Regards,
Tom
> .
>>
>> Regards,
>> Tom Dial
> 
> Thanks Tom.
> 
> No Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.

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#270008

Fromgene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net>
Date2024-06-09 08:20 +0200
Message-ID<INk4h-1DXQ-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#270000
On 6/8/24 19:11, Tom Dial wrote:
> 
> 
> On 6/7/24 23:41, gene heskett wrote:
>> On 6/7/24 20:38, Tom Dial wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/6/24 23:14, gene heskett wrote:
>>>> On 6/6/24 19:00, Tom Dial wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 6/5/24 19:53, gene heskett wrote:
>>>>>> On 6/5/24 17:25, Tom Dial wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 6/5/24 08:58, gene heskett wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 6/5/24 02:05, Tom Dial wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 6/4/24 04:26, gene heskett wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2/19/22 06:31, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Gene,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If this was someone calling you from a TV station saying they 
>>>>>>>>>>> had a TV
>>>>>>>>>>> transmitter that was varying in power output - you'd have a 
>>>>>>>>>>> mental checklist.
>>>>>>>>>>> You'd get down there, perhaps schedule some sort of power 
>>>>>>>>>>> down / reduced
>>>>>>>>>>> power operation and then you'd check - power supplies, feeder 
>>>>>>>>>>> cables, hot
>>>>>>>>>>> spots on cables - whatever. Divide and conquer- working back 
>>>>>>>>>>> to a baseline
>>>>>>>>>>> of known working conditions and eliminating causes.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> My suggestion to you of a reinstall is partly designed to get 
>>>>>>>>>>> you out of this
>>>>>>>>>>> "X happens, I did Y, now I've got Z" - to get to a known 
>>>>>>>>>>> initial state.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Take out all the serial converters to UPS, lathe and so on. 
>>>>>>>>>>> Wireless keyboard
>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't present as serial in the same way that brltty does - 
>>>>>>>>>>> if it did, I'd
>>>>>>>>>>> have brltty with every install on this laptop.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Copy off your home directory as you did before - maybe using 
>>>>>>>>>>> tar.gz and preserving permissions. Start with the .iso that 
>>>>>>>>>>> includes firmware - the unofficial one.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Build back slowly - do an expert text mode install if you 
>>>>>>>>>>> can. Then add your
>>>>>>>>>>> Trinity desktop - I don't think any of us can help you there, 
>>>>>>>>>>> since we don't
>>>>>>>>>>> run trinity.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Check and you should find that brltty isn't installed at all. 
>>>>>>>>>>> Then re-add thingsgradually until you have the working system 
>>>>>>>>>>> you want. Document it - write down
>>>>>>>>>>> the steps you take / copy configuration files you change.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That will also reveal logging / login slowdowns or whatever 
>>>>>>>>>>> caused by
>>>>>>>>>>> individual devices as you add them back. Keep a list as you go.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That's the counsel of perfection: alternatively:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> apt rdepends brltty gives me:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> me@mymachine:~$ apt rdepends brltty
>>>>>>>>>>> brltty
>>>>>>>>>>> Reverse Depends:
>>>>>>>>>>>    Suggests: speechd-el (>= 3.7.2)
>>>>>>>>>>>    Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>>>>    Suggests: orca
>>>>>>>>>>>    Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>>>>    Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>>>>    Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You could try apt-get remove (or equivalent) on each of those 
>>>>>>>>>>> packages and
>>>>>>>>>>> see if that clears it. I _know_ this is frustrating as all 
>>>>>>>>>>> get out for you
>>>>>>>>>>> but a clear approach, written down so that you can remember 
>>>>>>>>>>> where you got
>>>>>>>>>>> to will be very helpful.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Any attempt to remove cura or brltty, removes gnome leaving me I 
>>>>>>>> assume with a text only system by the time gnome takes all its 
>>>>>>>> dependency's with it.  Thanks Tom.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Have you actually tried uninstalling brltty only, as a separate 
>>>>>>> action from all others?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have a number of gnome installations, unfortunately for this 
>>>>>>> discussion all bookworm. None of them has brltty.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have a few installations of bullseye and an older stretch 
>>>>>>> installation, but none with gnome installed. On all of them, 
>>>>>>> though, "apt-rdepends -r gnome" fails to list brltty as a gnome 
>>>>>>> dependency. And on the bookworm systems, simulated installation 
>>>>>>> of gnome ("apt install -s gnome") shows brltty as a suggested 
>>>>>>> package only and would not install it along with gnome; on the 
>>>>>>> stretch system, gnome installation makes no reference at all to 
>>>>>>> brltty.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> While I have both with only the radio buttons for keyboard and 
>>>>>> rodent plugged into usb at install time. I have only one wired 
>>>>>> keyboard and no wired mice as I've had a lightning strike on the 
>>>>>> pole that serves this house reach up and tap me by way of my 
>>>>>> fingers on the keyboard. Wasn't that much of a tap, I've been 
>>>>>> tapped a lot harder that that, hard enough to trigger a 6 month 
>>>>>> round of shingles and the burns were months healing. And in this 
>>>>>> case did not damage the keyboard or computer, but I did get the 
>>>>>> message. I've had many strikes on that pole since I built a garage 
>>>>>> on the end of the house, which caused me to install a 200 amp 
>>>>>> service and bring my grounding specs up to NEC. Zero problems 
>>>>>> since then (2008)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is it possible you have apt settings that automatically pull in 
>>>>>>> suggested packages, and that is interfering with attempts to 
>>>>>>> remove brltty? I am not expert enough wrt apt and its relatives 
>>>>>>> to know whether that even makes sense, and it seems a bit far 
>>>>>>> fetched if maybe barely possible.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Maybe if you post the output from "apt-rdepends -r brltty" and 
>>>>>>> "apt purge --simulate brltty" it will be informative.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Neither of those utils are installed. Should they be?
>>>>>
>>>>> apt should be installed. As far as I know it has been included by 
>>>>> default in the Debian base system as the preferred command line 
>>>>> package management program since buster or earlier. I have never 
>>>>> had to install it. You probably should if it is missing.
>>>>>
>>>>> apt-rdepends is at least partly redundant with apt.
>>>>> The command "apt-rdepends -r <package-name>", and "apt rdepends 
>>>>> <package-name>" both show reverse dependencies of <package-name>; 
>>>>> the latter also shows suggestions (packages that suggest <package 
>>>>> name, I think).
>>>>> If you have apt installed, you probably do not need apt-rdepends.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Tom Dial
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Tom Dial
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If all else fails, you can then share it with the list and 
>>>>>>>>>>> say "I got to
>>>>>>>>>>> step X with no problems, then Y happened - help me out here" 
>>>>>>>>>>> and we'll
>>>>>>>>>>> have some better idea. We all jib at you for being vague/not 
>>>>>>>>>>> indluding
>>>>>>>>>>> details but otherwise it is all just guesswork for the usual 
>>>>>>>>>>> folk that
>>>>>>>>>>> hang out here.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> All the very best, as ever,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Andy Cater
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How much longer till trixie is officially out??  What you are 
>>>>>>>>>> proposing sounds like several days work, and i have other 
>>>>>>>>>> irons in the fire. This release has been such a disaster for 
>>>>>>>>>> me because the install insists on installing and configuring 
>>>>>>>>>> orca and brltty w/o asking. I've done 40 some installs now, 
>>>>>>>>>> trying to stop it from wasting about a second while its 
>>>>>>>>>> yelling every keystroke at me because it thinks I'm blind. I 
>>>>>>>>>> finally have orca disabled and the computer is useful. The 
>>>>>>>>>> delays are a pain in the a$$ but i can do work now. It is not 
>>>>>>>>>> useful when orca is using 90% of a 6 core I5 yelling at me 
>>>>>>>>>> loud enough to announce and pronounce every keystroke or mouse 
>>>>>>>>>> motion/click loud enough to wake the neighbors.  The first 23 
>>>>>>>>>> installs never asked me if I wanted that crap. And if you 
>>>>>>>>>> nuked the orca executable it would not reboot but hung forever 
>>>>>>>>>> waiting for orca to start. I have it usable, the installer 
>>>>>>>>>> AFAIAC is broken and I don't want to have to go through all 
>>>>>>>>>> that again. Until the installer ASKS me if I want it because 
>>>>>>>>>> it thinks I am blind, I have only one nerve left and and the 
>>>>>>>>>> suggestion that I do yet another install, is standing on it. 
>>>>>>>>>> Trying to remove it now, it insists on removing gnome and 
>>>>>>>>>> every dependency. I just checked again with synaptic, removing 
>>>>>>>>>> either orca or brltty still wants to destroy the system, Yet 
>>>>>>>>>> all I get when I fuss about the broken installer is "won't 
>>>>>>>>>> fix, not broken'.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Gene,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I, too, am not in need of the services that  brltty or orca 
>>>>>>>>> provide, and have noticed them hanging about from time to time, 
>>>>>>>>> although I have not encountered any difficulties like you 
>>>>>>>>> describe.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On a bullseye system, apt-rdepends -r brltty informs me:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> # apt-rdepends -r brltty
>>>>>>>>> Reading package lists... Done
>>>>>>>>> Building dependency tree... Done
>>>>>>>>> Reading state information... Done
>>>>>>>>> brltty
>>>>>>>>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>> brltty-espeak
>>>>>>>>> brltty-flite
>>>>>>>>> brltty-speechd
>>>>>>>>> brltty-x11
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If I understand apt-rdepends correctly, you should be able to 
>>>>>>>>> remove/purge brltty ("apt purge brltty") without removing any 
>>>>>>>>> installed packages other than the four listed above.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> apt-rdepends -r orca tells me:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> # apt-rdepends -r orca
>>>>>>>>> Reading package lists... Done
>>>>>>>>> Building dependency tree... Done
>>>>>>>>> Reading state information... Done
>>>>>>>>> orca
>>>>>>>>>    Reverse Depends: gnome (>= 1:3.38+3)
>>>>>>>>>    Reverse Depends: gnome-orca (3.38.2-2)
>>>>>>>>>    Reverse Depends: orca-sops (1.0.2-2)
>>>>>>>>> gnome
>>>>>>>>> gnome-orca
>>>>>>>>> orca-sops
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So removing orca would also take gnome, and that probably is 
>>>>>>>>> unacceptable to you. Accordingly, you need to tame orca to find 
>>>>>>>>> the process that causes it to run and persuade it not to do that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I found, on a bookworm install (I have no bullseye with gnome 
>>>>>>>>> and orca), that running orca -s from a terminal will bring up a 
>>>>>>>>> settings panel with a check box for "Enable speech" under the 
>>>>>>>>> "Speech" tab. Unchecking that box and selecting the "Apply" 
>>>>>>>>> button will silence Orca. I think that leaves some of its 
>>>>>>>>> subtasks running, as children of the systemd --user task; I am 
>>>>>>>>> far from expert here. They do not seem to use significant 
>>>>>>>>> resources, however.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Alternatively, you can find orca's process, for instance, with 
>>>>>>>>> "ps -ef | grep orca", and kill it. The -HUP signal is enough. 
>>>>>>>>> Or you can kill its parent process (third column in the ps -ef 
>>>>>>>>> output) if it is not a necessary one, or maybe teach it how to 
>>>>>>>>> not start orca in the first place,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I hope this is useful. Things like this can be very annoying.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Tom Dial
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you Tom
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
>>>> In experimenting I've found a name clash, there are appprently two 
>>>> orca's. one is a speech synth, one is a slicer for 3d printers I 
>>>> don't use. Typing orca in a shell locks the shell wo any output, for 
>>>> several minutes but comes back to a prompt with a ctl-c, so I've NDC 
>>>> which was being executed. Whatevver, the installation is quite 
>>>> voluminous:
>>>> gene@coyote:~/AppImages$ locate orca |wc -l
>>>> 1560
>>>
>>> The output of "which orca" would have told you the path to the orca 
>>> program you ran. The orca program (Python script) that Debian 
>>> installs with gnome is /usr/bin/orca.
>>>
>>> With the orca that Debian installs along with gnome, typing "orca" in 
>>> a command line and hitting the <Enter> key starts orca in its working 
>>> mode. To get the GUI settings panel, you have to use "orca -s". See 
>>> the orca man page for setup details.
>>>
>>> orca's normal run mode is in the background with no screen presence
>>>>
>>>> So I took orca out, which took gnome out. But now gnomes 
>>>> dependencies will put orca back in. So now I can't run autoremove. 
>>>> So one more time this broken damned bookworm install has bit me in a 
>>>> rear.
>>>
>>> It appears you had more than one orca, different programs and for 
>>> different, unrelated purposes. Debian installed only one of them. The 
>>> other, hinted by the directory in which you ran the locate command, 
>>> presumably was installed by you, and may be part of an AppImage. Or 
>>> maybe it is the same orca, but installed with an appimage. I don't 
>>> use AppImage packages knowingly, and only use non-distribution 
>>> packages very sparingly, so have little to contribute on that subject.
>>
>> I OTOH, have found AppImages a good way to get uptodate, and keep 
>> uptodate, packages like OpenSCAD, FreeCAD and the miriad 3d slicers, 
>> most of which do a new AppImage in the first week of the month. So the 
>> OpenSCAD I'm running is nearly 4 years newer than the repo version, 
>> and probably 20x faster.
> 
>>>
>>> You stated above that the "other" - non-Debian - orca was for 3D 
>>> printers you don't use. That suggests you could remove it without 
>>> interfering with anything.
>>
>> It was an AppImage, rm-able.ff>
>>> But you removed orca - the Debian-installed one - and just as apt (or 
>>> apt-get) said when you did it, it removed gnome. And the result was 
>>> unsatisfactory, as I said it probably would be in an earlier message 
>>> on this thread.
>>>
>>> The obvious solution is remove the other - non-Debian - Orca, note 
>>> uppercase with whatever tools are appropriate to that. Then reinstall 
>>> gnome. As you said, that will reinstall orca as a dependency. But 
>>> once it is done, you can tune orca - the Debian one - to be less 
>>> obtrusive, or even silent, in the way I described earlier.
> 
>>
>>>
>>> If, for reasons, you can't remove the non-Debian orca, it might not 
>>> even matter, since it silencing the Debian one is pretty easy
>>
>> That I did not find easy. Disabling it also removes the ability to 
>> reboot as the boot hangs forever waiting for orca to start, quite 
>> early in the boot.  That little detail is responsible for the first 23 
>> re-installs.
> 
> I don't oppose appimage use, except on a sort of vague esthetic basis or 
> misplaced/unnecessary concern with resource use "efficiency." They 
> certainly have valid use cases.
> 
> At this point, I have no idea about the state of your system, so recommend:
> 
> Restore the system to the point where it has the software installed that 
> you want, plus gnome, plus the orca that came with gnome. Make sure 
> brltty is gone, since you don't want it.
> 
>      apt purge brltty --yes
> 
> Reboot.
> 
> (Probably unnecessary, but it won't hurt and will ensure the system is 
> in a fairly normal state).
> 
> Log on to your account and disable orca speech:
> 
>      orca -s &
> 
> In 5 - 10 seconds, the "Screen Reader Preferences" panel should be 
> displayed, with 8 tabs under the title. Left-click the "Speech" tab and 
> make sure the "Enable speech" box is unchecked. Then left-click the 
> "Apply" button at the bottom of the panel, and after that the "OK" 
> button. The preferences panel will close in a few seconds.
> 
> Orca should no longer read screens. And the change should be persistent 
> across logins and reboots: the settings are saved in your 
> ~/.local/share/orca/ for later.

orca is gone, as is gnome. Apt and synaptic refuse to re-install gnome 
w/o dragging in orca too. Good night, whats left of it, Tom.



> 
> You also could take care of orca for the current session by
> 
>      killall orca
> 
> but it would not be persistent across logins.
> 
> Also see
>      https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
>      
> https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/commands_speech_settings.html.en
> 
> On your system:
>      man orca
>      /usr/share/doc/orca/README
> 
> I won't say it's the best documentation I have seen, but it is 
> documentation, and better than some.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Tom
>> .
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Tom Dial
>>
>> Thanks Tom.
>>
>> No Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis

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#270012

From"Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com>
Date2024-06-09 14:00 +0200
Message-ID<INpnj-1GWh-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#270008
On Sun, Jun 09, 2024 at 02:14:14AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> On 6/8/24 19:11, Tom Dial wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On your system:
> >      man orca
> >      /usr/share/doc/orca/README
> > 
> > I won't say it's the best documentation I have seen, but it is
> > documentation, and better than some.
> > 
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Tom
> > > .
> > > > 
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
> -- 

Gene,

Any chance you could cut down extra stuff in the messages?

This was a *very* long message.

At this point, your best option is actually to rebuild, I think.

You can find a .iso file at https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-cd/debian-12.5.0-amd64-netinst.iso

Unplug extraneous USB leads except for a mouse or keyboard.

When you boot it up - go for the text mode expert install immediately you
hear the two beeps. If you don't hear the beeps, don't hang around.

Set up your IP address and hostname explicitly so that you know they 
will be reflected when you reboot.

Do NOT install any desktop environment if you want to continue using
TDE. That way you won't install GNOME or orca or anything else.

Reboot - then go from there to install TDE.

There's a sunk cost fallacy - you've invested a bunch of time and effort
but you have an unusable machine. To make it usable, you might well need
to strip it to bare bones and continue from there.

None of us can help you - we don't know what you may have done. Crucially,
_you_ don't know what you may have done and can't / won't take our advice
on how to disable orca
>

All best, as ever,

Andy
(amacater@debian.org)

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#270013

FromGreg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org>
Date2024-06-09 15:00 +0200
Message-ID<INqjn-1Hv9-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#270008
On Sun, Jun 09, 2024 at 02:14:14AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> orca is gone, as is gnome. Apt and synaptic refuse to re-install gnome w/o
> dragging in orca too. Good night, whats left of it, Tom.

The "gnome" metapackage depends on "orca".  It's a direct dependency.

hobbit:~$ apt-cache show gnome | grep Depends:
Depends: gnome-core (= 1:43+1), desktop-base, libproxy1-plugin-networkmanager, network-manager-gnome (>= 1.8), cheese (>= 3.38), file-roller (>= 3.38), gnome-calendar (>= 3.38), gnome-clocks (>= 3.38), gnome-color-manager (>= 3.36), gnome-maps (>= 3.38), gnome-music (>= 3.36), shotwell | gnome-photos (>= 3.36), gnome-weather (>= 3.36), orca (>= 3.38), rygel-playbin (>= 0.36), rygel-tracker (>= 0.36), simple-scan (>= 3.36), avahi-daemon, evolution (>= 3.36), gnome-sound-recorder, gnome-tweaks (>= 3.30), libgsf-bin, libreoffice-gnome, libreoffice-writer, libreoffice-calc, libreoffice-impress, rhythmbox (>= 3.0), seahorse (>= 3.36), xdg-user-dirs-gtk, cups-pk-helper (>= 0.2), evolution-plugins (>= 3.36), gstreamer1.0-libav (>= 1.10), gstreamer1.0-plugins-ugly (>= 1.10), rhythmbox-plugins, rhythmbox-plugin-cdrecorder, totem-plugins

hobbit:~$ apt-cache show gnome | grep Depends: | grep -oP 'orca.*?,'
orca (>= 3.38),

I've spelled out for you step by step how to build your own replacement
for "gnome" which lacks this dependency.  You've ignored that.

Others have suggested steps for disabling/reconfiguring orca without
removing it.  You haven't tried that path either.

You just keep repeating the same steps over and over and expecting a
different result.

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#270016

Fromgene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net>
Date2024-06-09 16:20 +0200
Message-ID<INryN-1Irr-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#270013
On 6/9/24 08:52, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 09, 2024 at 02:14:14AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
>> orca is gone, as is gnome. Apt and synaptic refuse to re-install gnome w/o
>> dragging in orca too. Good night, whats left of it, Tom.
> 
> The "gnome" metapackage depends on "orca".  It's a direct dependency.
> 
> hobbit:~$ apt-cache show gnome | grep Depends:
> Depends: gnome-core (= 1:43+1), desktop-base, libproxy1-plugin-networkmanager, network-manager-gnome (>= 1.8), cheese (>= 3.38), file-roller (>= 3.38), gnome-calendar (>= 3.38), gnome-clocks (>= 3.38), gnome-color-manager (>= 3.36), gnome-maps (>= 3.38), gnome-music (>= 3.36), shotwell | gnome-photos (>= 3.36), gnome-weather (>= 3.36), orca (>= 3.38), rygel-playbin (>= 0.36), rygel-tracker (>= 0.36), simple-scan (>= 3.36), avahi-daemon, evolution (>= 3.36), gnome-sound-recorder, gnome-tweaks (>= 3.30), libgsf-bin, libreoffice-gnome, libreoffice-writer, libreoffice-calc, libreoffice-impress, rhythmbox (>= 3.0), seahorse (>= 3.36), xdg-user-dirs-gtk, cups-pk-helper (>= 0.2), evolution-plugins (>= 3.36), gstreamer1.0-libav (>= 1.10), gstreamer1.0-plugins-ugly (>= 1.10), rhythmbox-plugins, rhythmbox-plugin-cdrecorder, totem-plugins
> 
So I ran the above apt-cache show, writing it to /tmp/gnome-deps, then 
removed orca from that list and saved it over itself.

I am freshly rebooted, nothing is running but this tbird and ntpsec as 
this machine is a stratum 3 server to most of the other machines here. 
I have a few bash's running but no local network has been started so the 
system is relatively clean.

So I have a comma separated list of deps w/o orca, in /tmp/gnome-deps. 
whats next?


> hobbit:~$ apt-cache show gnome | grep Depends: | grep -oP 'orca.*?,'
> orca (>= 3.38),
> 
> I've spelled out for you step by step how to build your own replacement
> for "gnome" which lacks this dependency.  You've ignored that.
> 
Not totally, but studying the equiv docs (the README) is leaving me 
puzzled.  Your list above, leaving out orca looks like a good starting 
point but is a lot of typing. I just had a lockup & had a 30 second lag 
like launching shotwell gives before the reset button even cleared the 
screen to start the reboot.

> Others have suggested steps for disabling/reconfiguring orca without
> removing it.  You haven't tried that path either.
> 
That I finally figured out 9 months or so back up the log, so I didn't 
pursue it further.

> You just keep repeating the same steps over and over and expecting a
> different result.
> 
> .
Thanks Greg.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis

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#270017

FromTom Dial <tddial@comcast.net>
Date2024-06-09 22:10 +0200
Message-ID<INx1v-1LKs-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#270008

On 6/9/24 00:14, gene heskett wrote:
> On 6/8/24 19:11, Tom Dial wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 6/7/24 23:41, gene heskett wrote:
>>> On 6/7/24 20:38, Tom Dial wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 6/6/24 23:14, gene heskett wrote:
>>>>> On 6/6/24 19:00, Tom Dial wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6/5/24 19:53, gene heskett wrote:
>>>>>>> On 6/5/24 17:25, Tom Dial wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 6/5/24 08:58, gene heskett wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 6/5/24 02:05, Tom Dial wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 6/4/24 04:26, gene heskett wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/19/22 06:31, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Gene,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If this was someone calling you from a TV station saying they had a TV
>>>>>>>>>>>> transmitter that was varying in power output - you'd have a mental checklist.
>>>>>>>>>>>> You'd get down there, perhaps schedule some sort of power down / reduced
>>>>>>>>>>>> power operation and then you'd check - power supplies, feeder cables, hot
>>>>>>>>>>>> spots on cables - whatever. Divide and conquer- working back to a baseline
>>>>>>>>>>>> of known working conditions and eliminating causes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> My suggestion to you of a reinstall is partly designed to get you out of this
>>>>>>>>>>>> "X happens, I did Y, now I've got Z" - to get to a known initial state.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Take out all the serial converters to UPS, lathe and so on. Wireless keyboard
>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't present as serial in the same way that brltty does - if it did, I'd
>>>>>>>>>>>> have brltty with every install on this laptop.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Copy off your home directory as you did before - maybe using tar.gz and preserving permissions. Start with the .iso that includes firmware - the unofficial one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Build back slowly - do an expert text mode install if you can. Then add your
>>>>>>>>>>>> Trinity desktop - I don't think any of us can help you there, since we don't
>>>>>>>>>>>> run trinity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Check and you should find that brltty isn't installed at all. Then re-add thingsgradually until you have the working system you want. Document it - write down
>>>>>>>>>>>> the steps you take / copy configuration files you change.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That will also reveal logging / login slowdowns or whatever caused by
>>>>>>>>>>>> individual devices as you add them back. Keep a list as you go.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That's the counsel of perfection: alternatively:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> apt rdepends brltty gives me:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> me@mymachine:~$ apt rdepends brltty
>>>>>>>>>>>> brltty
>>>>>>>>>>>> Reverse Depends:
>>>>>>>>>>>>    Suggests: speechd-el (>= 3.7.2)
>>>>>>>>>>>>    Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>>>>>    Suggests: orca
>>>>>>>>>>>>    Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>>>>>    Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>>>>>    Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You could try apt-get remove (or equivalent) on each of those packages and
>>>>>>>>>>>> see if that clears it. I _know_ this is frustrating as all get out for you
>>>>>>>>>>>> but a clear approach, written down so that you can remember where you got
>>>>>>>>>>>> to will be very helpful.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Any attempt to remove cura or brltty, removes gnome leaving me I assume with a text only system by the time gnome takes all its dependency's with it.  Thanks Tom.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Have you actually tried uninstalling brltty only, as a separate action from all others?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have a number of gnome installations, unfortunately for this discussion all bookworm. None of them has brltty.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have a few installations of bullseye and an older stretch installation, but none with gnome installed. On all of them, though, "apt-rdepends -r gnome" fails to list brltty as a gnome dependency. And on the bookworm systems, simulated installation of gnome ("apt install -s gnome") shows brltty as a suggested package only and would not install it along with gnome; on the stretch system, gnome installation makes no reference at all to brltty.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> While I have both with only the radio buttons for keyboard and rodent plugged into usb at install time. I have only one wired keyboard and no wired mice as I've had a lightning strike on the pole that serves this house reach up and tap me by way of my fingers on the keyboard. Wasn't that much of a tap, I've been tapped a lot harder that that, hard enough to trigger a 6 month round of shingles and the burns were months healing. And in this case did not damage the keyboard or computer, but I did get the message. I've had many strikes on that pole since I built a garage on the end of the house, which caused me to install a 200 amp service and bring my grounding specs up to NEC. Zero problems since then (2008)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is it possible you have apt settings that automatically pull in suggested packages, and that is interfering with attempts to remove brltty? I am not expert enough wrt apt and its relatives to know whether that even makes sense, and it seems a bit far fetched if maybe barely possible.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Maybe if you post the output from "apt-rdepends -r brltty" and "apt purge --simulate brltty" it will be informative.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Neither of those utils are installed. Should they be?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> apt should be installed. As far as I know it has been included by default in the Debian base system as the preferred command line package management program since buster or earlier. I have never had to install it. You probably should if it is missing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> apt-rdepends is at least partly redundant with apt.
>>>>>> The command "apt-rdepends -r <package-name>", and "apt rdepends <package-name>" both show reverse dependencies of <package-name>; the latter also shows suggestions (packages that suggest <package name, I think).
>>>>>> If you have apt installed, you probably do not need apt-rdepends.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Tom Dial
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> Tom Dial
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If all else fails, you can then share it with the list and say "I got to
>>>>>>>>>>>> step X with no problems, then Y happened - help me out here" and we'll
>>>>>>>>>>>> have some better idea. We all jib at you for being vague/not indluding
>>>>>>>>>>>> details but otherwise it is all just guesswork for the usual folk that
>>>>>>>>>>>> hang out here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> All the very best, as ever,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Andy Cater
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> How much longer till trixie is officially out??  What you are proposing sounds like several days work, and i have other irons in the fire. This release has been such a disaster for me because the install insists on installing and configuring orca and brltty w/o asking. I've done 40 some installs now, trying to stop it from wasting about a second while its yelling every keystroke at me because it thinks I'm blind. I finally have orca disabled and the computer is useful. The delays are a pain in the a$$ but i can do work now. It is not useful when orca is using 90% of a 6 core I5 yelling at me loud enough to announce and pronounce every keystroke or mouse motion/click loud enough to wake the neighbors.  The first 23 installs never asked me if I wanted that crap. And if you nuked the orca executable it would not reboot but hung forever waiting for orca to start. I have it usable, the installer AFAIAC is broken and I don't want to have to go through all that again. 
>>>>>>>>>>> Until the installer ASKS me if I want it because it thinks I am blind, I have only one nerve left and and the suggestion that I do yet another install, is standing on it. Trying to remove it now, it insists on removing gnome and every dependency. I just checked again with synaptic, removing either orca or brltty still wants to destroy the system, Yet all I get when I fuss about the broken installer is "won't fix, not broken'.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Gene,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I, too, am not in need of the services that  brltty or orca provide, and have noticed them hanging about from time to time, although I have not encountered any difficulties like you describe.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On a bullseye system, apt-rdepends -r brltty informs me:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> # apt-rdepends -r brltty
>>>>>>>>>> Reading package lists... Done
>>>>>>>>>> Building dependency tree... Done
>>>>>>>>>> Reading state information... Done
>>>>>>>>>> brltty
>>>>>>>>>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>>>> brltty-espeak
>>>>>>>>>> brltty-flite
>>>>>>>>>> brltty-speechd
>>>>>>>>>> brltty-x11
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If I understand apt-rdepends correctly, you should be able to remove/purge brltty ("apt purge brltty") without removing any installed packages other than the four listed above.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> apt-rdepends -r orca tells me:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> # apt-rdepends -r orca
>>>>>>>>>> Reading package lists... Done
>>>>>>>>>> Building dependency tree... Done
>>>>>>>>>> Reading state information... Done
>>>>>>>>>> orca
>>>>>>>>>>    Reverse Depends: gnome (>= 1:3.38+3)
>>>>>>>>>>    Reverse Depends: gnome-orca (3.38.2-2)
>>>>>>>>>>    Reverse Depends: orca-sops (1.0.2-2)
>>>>>>>>>> gnome
>>>>>>>>>> gnome-orca
>>>>>>>>>> orca-sops
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So removing orca would also take gnome, and that probably is unacceptable to you. Accordingly, you need to tame orca to find the process that causes it to run and persuade it not to do that.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I found, on a bookworm install (I have no bullseye with gnome and orca), that running orca -s from a terminal will bring up a settings panel with a check box for "Enable speech" under the "Speech" tab. Unchecking that box and selecting the "Apply" button will silence Orca. I think that leaves some of its subtasks running, as children of the systemd --user task; I am far from expert here. They do not seem to use significant resources, however.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Alternatively, you can find orca's process, for instance, with "ps -ef | grep orca", and kill it. The -HUP signal is enough. Or you can kill its parent process (third column in the ps -ef output) if it is not a necessary one, or maybe teach it how to not start orca in the first place,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I hope this is useful. Things like this can be very annoying.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>> Tom Dial
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you Tom
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
>>>>> In experimenting I've found a name clash, there are appprently two orca's. one is a speech synth, one is a slicer for 3d printers I don't use. Typing orca in a shell locks the shell wo any output, for several minutes but comes back to a prompt with a ctl-c, so I've NDC which was being executed. Whatevver, the installation is quite voluminous:
>>>>> gene@coyote:~/AppImages$ locate orca |wc -l
>>>>> 1560
>>>>
>>>> The output of "which orca" would have told you the path to the orca program you ran. The orca program (Python script) that Debian installs with gnome is /usr/bin/orca.
>>>>
>>>> With the orca that Debian installs along with gnome, typing "orca" in a command line and hitting the <Enter> key starts orca in its working mode. To get the GUI settings panel, you have to use "orca -s". See the orca man page for setup details.
>>>>
>>>> orca's normal run mode is in the background with no screen presence
>>>>>
>>>>> So I took orca out, which took gnome out. But now gnomes dependencies will put orca back in. So now I can't run autoremove. So one more time this broken damned bookworm install has bit me in a rear.
>>>>
>>>> It appears you had more than one orca, different programs and for different, unrelated purposes. Debian installed only one of them. The other, hinted by the directory in which you ran the locate command, presumably was installed by you, and may be part of an AppImage. Or maybe it is the same orca, but installed with an appimage. I don't use AppImage packages knowingly, and only use non-distribution packages very sparingly, so have little to contribute on that subject.
>>>
>>> I OTOH, have found AppImages a good way to get uptodate, and keep uptodate, packages like OpenSCAD, FreeCAD and the miriad 3d slicers, most of which do a new AppImage in the first week of the month. So the OpenSCAD I'm running is nearly 4 years newer than the repo version, and probably 20x faster.
>>
>>>>
>>>> You stated above that the "other" - non-Debian - orca was for 3D printers you don't use. That suggests you could remove it without interfering with anything.
>>>
>>> It was an AppImage, rm-able.ff>
>>>> But you removed orca - the Debian-installed one - and just as apt (or apt-get) said when you did it, it removed gnome. And the result was unsatisfactory, as I said it probably would be in an earlier message on this thread.
>>>>
>>>> The obvious solution is remove the other - non-Debian - Orca, note uppercase with whatever tools are appropriate to that. Then reinstall gnome. As you said, that will reinstall orca as a dependency. But once it is done, you can tune orca - the Debian one - to be less obtrusive, or even silent, in the way I described earlier.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> If, for reasons, you can't remove the non-Debian orca, it might not even matter, since it silencing the Debian one is pretty easy
>>>
>>> That I did not find easy. Disabling it also removes the ability to reboot as the boot hangs forever waiting for orca to start, quite early in the boot.  That little detail is responsible for the first 23 re-installs.
>>
>> I don't oppose appimage use, except on a sort of vague esthetic basis or misplaced/unnecessary concern with resource use "efficiency." They certainly have valid use cases.
>>
>> At this point, I have no idea about the state of your system, so recommend:
>>
>> Restore the system to the point where it has the software installed that you want, plus gnome, plus the orca that came with gnome. Make sure brltty is gone, since you don't want it.
>>
>>      apt purge brltty --yes
>>
>> Reboot.
>>
>> (Probably unnecessary, but it won't hurt and will ensure the system is in a fairly normal state).
>>
>> Log on to your account and disable orca speech:
>>
>>      orca -s &
>>
>> In 5 - 10 seconds, the "Screen Reader Preferences" panel should be displayed, with 8 tabs under the title. Left-click the "Speech" tab and make sure the "Enable speech" box is unchecked. Then left-click the "Apply" button at the bottom of the panel, and after that the "OK" button. The preferences panel will close in a few seconds.
>>
>> Orca should no longer read screens. And the change should be persistent across logins and reboots: the settings are saved in your ~/.local/share/orca/ for later.
> 
> orca is gone, as is gnome. Apt and synaptic refuse to re-install gnome w/o dragging in orca too. Good night, whats left of it, Tom.

My advice, then, is to reinstall gnome, accept that orca will come with it, and then tame orca as I described immediately above in some detail.

If you are determined not to have orca installed, xfce4 does not require it, and there undoubtedly are other DEs that have no orca dependency.

You might be able to meet your objective by selectively install some or all of the packages that gnome depends on, omitting orca and the gnome package itself. I do not recommend it, however. It would be labor-intensive to start with, guarantee increased system maintenance workload in the future, and be likely to produce undesirable negative side effects as well.

Regards,
Tom.

> 
> 
>>>
>> You also could take care of orca for the current session by
>>
>>      killall orca
>>
>> but it would not be persistent across logins.
>>
>> Also see
>>      https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
>> https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/commands_speech_settings.html.en
>>
>> On your system:
>>      man orca
>>      /usr/share/doc/orca/README
>>
>> I won't say it's the best documentation I have seen, but it is documentation, and better than some.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Tom
>>> .
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Tom Dial
>>>
>>> Thanks Tom.
>>>
>>> No Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.

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#269943 — Re: about 10th new install of bullseye BUT its not Bullseye, its bookworm!

Fromgene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net>
Date2024-06-05 17:30 +0200
SubjectRe: about 10th new install of bullseye BUT its not Bullseye, its bookworm!
Message-ID<IM0Kl-PRr-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#269939
On 6/5/24 02:30, Tom Dial wrote:
> 
> 
> On 6/4/24 04:26, gene heskett wrote:
>> On 2/19/22 06:31, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
>>> Hi Gene,
>>>
>>> If this was someone calling you from a TV station saying they had a TV
>>> transmitter that was varying in power output - you'd have a mental 
>>> checklist.
>>> You'd get down there, perhaps schedule some sort of power down / reduced
>>> power operation and then you'd check - power supplies, feeder cables, 
>>> hot
>>> spots on cables - whatever. Divide and conquer- working back to a 
>>> baseline
>>> of known working conditions and eliminating causes.
>>>
>>> My suggestion to you of a reinstall is partly designed to get you out 
>>> of this
>>> "X happens, I did Y, now I've got Z" - to get to a known initial state.
>>>
>>> Take out all the serial converters to UPS, lathe and so on. Wireless 
>>> keyboard
>>> doesn't present as serial in the same way that brltty does - if it 
>>> did, I'd
>>> have brltty with every install on this laptop.
>>>
>>> Copy off your home directory as you did before - maybe using tar.gz 
>>> and preserving permissions. Start with the .iso that includes 
>>> firmware - the unofficial one.
>>>
>>> Build back slowly - do an expert text mode install if you can. Then 
>>> add your
>>> Trinity desktop - I don't think any of us can help you there, since 
>>> we don't
>>> run trinity.
>>>
>>> Check and you should find that brltty isn't installed at all. Then 
>>> re-add thingsgradually until you have the working system you want. 
>>> Document it - write down
>>> the steps you take / copy configuration files you change.
>>>
>>> That will also reveal logging / login slowdowns or whatever caused by
>>> individual devices as you add them back. Keep a list as you go.
>>>
>>> That's the counsel of perfection: alternatively:
>>>
>>> apt rdepends brltty gives me:
>>>
>>> me@mymachine:~$ apt rdepends brltty
>>> brltty
>>> Reverse Depends:
>>>    Suggests: speechd-el (>= 3.7.2)
>>>    Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>    Suggests: orca
>>>    Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>    Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>    Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>
>>> You could try apt-get remove (or equivalent) on each of those 
>>> packages and
>>> see if that clears it. I _know_ this is frustrating as all get out 
>>> for you
>>> but a clear approach, written down so that you can remember where you 
>>> got
>>> to will be very helpful.
>>>
>>> If all else fails, you can then share it with the list and say "I got to
>>> step X with no problems, then Y happened - help me out here" and we'll
>>> have some better idea. We all jib at you for being vague/not indluding
>>> details but otherwise it is all just guesswork for the usual folk that
>>> hang out here.
>>>
>>> All the very best, as ever,
>>>
>>> Andy Cater
>>>
>> How much longer till trixie is officially out??  What you are 
>> proposing sounds like several days work, and i have other irons in the 
>> fire. This release has been such a disaster for me because the install 
>> insists on installing and configuring orca and brltty w/o asking. I've 
>> done 40 some installs now, trying to stop it from wasting about a 
>> second while its yelling every keystroke at me because it thinks I'm 
>> blind. I finally have orca disabled and the computer is useful. The 
>> delays are a pain in the a$$ but i can do work now. It is not useful 
>> when orca is using 90% of a 6 core I5 yelling at me loud enough to 
>> announce and pronounce every keystroke or mouse motion/click loud 
>> enough to wake the neighbors.  The first 23 installs never asked me if 
>> I wanted that crap. And if you nuked the orca executable it would not 
>> reboot but hung forever waiting for orca to start. I have it usable, 
>> the installer AFAIAC is broken and I don't want to have to go through 
>> all that again. Until the installer ASKS me if I want it because it 
>> thinks I am blind, I have only one nerve left and and the suggestion 
>> that I do yet another install, is standing on it. Trying to remove it 
>> now, it insists on removing gnome and every dependency. I just checked 
>> again with synaptic, removing either orca or brltty still wants to 
>> destroy the system, Yet all I get when I fuss about the broken 
>> installer is "won't fix, not broken'.
>>
> Hi Gene,
> 
> I, too, am not in need of the services that  brltty or orca provide, and 
> have noticed them hanging about from time to time, although I have not 
> encountered any difficulties like you describe.
> 
> On a bullseye system, apt-rdepends -r brltty informs me:
> 
> # apt-rdepends -r brltty
> Reading package lists... Done
> Building dependency tree... Done
> Reading state information... Done
> brltty
>    Reverse Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>    Reverse Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>    Reverse Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>    Reverse Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
> brltty-espeak
> brltty-flite
> brltty-speechd
> brltty-x11
> 
> If I understand apt-rdepends correctly, you should be able to 
> remove/purge brltty ("apt purge brltty") without removing any installed 
> packages other than the four listed above.

I have removed orca by removing its exec bits. But the system then will 
not reboot, waiting forever for orca to start.  The only recovery 
possible is a re-install, which accounts for about the first 23 
installs. But just like now, no one has told me how to REMOVE THEM ONCE 
INSTALLED BY THE BROKEN INSTALLER. Finally i was instructed to remove 
ALL usb stuff. Which did not remove them, but did not configure them to 
run like I was blind. Some macular degeneration due to my age but not 
blind yet at 89. And I still have both orca and brltty but unconfigured. 
  That I can tolerate. But in asking how to get rid of it, the subject 
is always changed and I always get re-install instructions.  Frustrating.

> apt-rdepends -r orca tells me:
> 
> # apt-rdepends -r orca
> Reading package lists... Done
> Building dependency tree... Done
> Reading state information... Done
> orca
>    Reverse Depends: gnome (>= 1:3.38+3)
>    Reverse Depends: gnome-orca (3.38.2-2)
>    Reverse Depends: orca-sops (1.0.2-2)
> gnome
> gnome-orca
> orca-sops
> 
> So removing orca would also take gnome, and that probably is 
> unacceptable to you. Accordingly, you need to tame orca to find the 
> process that causes it to run and persuade it not to do that.
> 
> I found, on a bookworm install (I have no bullseye with gnome and orca), 

This is bookworm.

> that running orca -s from a terminal will bring up a settings panel with 
> a check box for "Enable speech" under the "Speech" tab. Unchecking that 
> box and selecting the "Apply" button will silence Orca. I think that 
> leaves some of its subtasks running, as children of the systemd --user 
> task; I am far from expert here. They do not seem to use significant 
> resources, however.
> 
> Alternatively, you can find orca's process, for instance, with "ps -ef | 
> grep orca", and kill it. The -HUP signal is enough. Or you can kill its 
> parent process (third column in the ps -ef output) if it is not a 
> necessary one, or maybe teach it how to not start orca in the first place,
> 
> I hope this is useful. Things like this can be very annoying.

An understatement Tom.
Thanks tom.
But when is trixie official.

> 
> Regards,
> Tom Dial
>>
>>>
>>> .
>>
>> Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
> 
> .

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis

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#269950 — Re: about 10th new install of bookworm!

FromFelix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net>
Date2024-06-06 00:50 +0200
SubjectRe: about 10th new install of bookworm!
Message-ID<IM7C9-TZn-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#269943
gene heskett composed on 2024-06-05 11:21 (UTC-0400):

> I always get re-install instructions.  Frustrating.

Should you choose to accept any fresh installation suggestion by doing another,
consider removing the sound card from its slot, or disabling the motherboard's
sound device in BIOS setup, whichever is applicable, before beginning
installation, as a possible thwart to the Gnome must have everything paradigm, if
blocking Gnome entirely is unacceptable.

As a side note to installation: as soon as a fresh installation seems suitably
complete, but before adding any additional software, create a compressed /
filesystem partition backup image to facilitate any need for a consequent do-over.

gene heskett composed on 2024-06-05 17:08 (UTC-0400):

> So this is the umptieth time I've asked how to fix it, and got recipes
> for re-installing the basic system as an answer. Mike gave me instructs
> to run a couple commands, once normally, once while it was hung but the
> 2nd comnnand I fed to wc -l and got almost 300k lines. Difficult to do
> in real time because the command itself is subject to the lockout lag.

Answering a help request like this one is a toughie. It's commonly necessary to
reproduce both hardware configuration and software configuration in order to try
to address the problem. That can be quite complicated, and time consumptive. Here
it seems we may have a shortage from both helper and helpee, not necessarily a
fault of either, but a puzzle with missing pieces, in addition to some pieces that
don't belong to the puzzle (history tomes; not being concise). Could it also be
that we have too many cooks in the kitchen here too?
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion,
	based on faith, not based on science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata

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#269953 — Re: about 10th new install of bookworm!

Fromgene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net>
Date2024-06-06 04:10 +0200
SubjectRe: about 10th new install of bookworm!
Message-ID<IMaJH-VZ9-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#269950
On 6/5/24 21:05, Felix Miata wrote:
> gene heskett composed on 2024-06-05 11:21 (UTC-0400):
> 
>> I always get re-install instructions.  Frustrating.
> 
> Should you choose to accept any fresh installation suggestion by doing another,
> consider removing the sound card from its slot, or disabling the motherboard's
> sound device in BIOS setup, whichever is applicable, before beginning
> installation, as a possible thwart to the Gnome must have everything paradigm, if
> blocking Gnome entirely is unacceptable.

That might be useful advice, but the sound card is not readily 
removable, its built into this asus motherboard. An Asus PRIME Z370-A II.
> 
> As a side note to installation: as soon as a fresh installation seems suitably
> complete, but before adding any additional software, create a compressed /
> filesystem partition backup image to facilitate any need for a consequent do-over.
> 
> gene heskett composed on 2024-06-05 17:08 (UTC-0400):
> 
>> So this is the umptieth time I've asked how to fix it, and got recipes
>> for re-installing the basic system as an answer. Mike gave me instructs
>> to run a couple commands, once normally, once while it was hung but the
>> 2nd comnnand I fed to wc -l and got almost 300k lines. Difficult to do
>> in real time because the command itself is subject to the lockout lag.
> 
> Answering a help request like this one is a toughie. It's commonly necessary to
> reproduce both hardware configuration and software configuration in order to try
> to address the problem. That can be quite complicated, and time consumptive. Here
> it seems we may have a shortage from both helper and helpee, not necessarily a
> fault of either, but a puzzle with missing pieces, in addition to some pieces that
> don't belong to the puzzle (history tomes; not being concise). Could it also be
> that we have too many cooks in the kitchen here too?

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis

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#269954 — Re: about 10th new install of bookworm!

FromFelix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net>
Date2024-06-06 04:30 +0200
SubjectRe: about 10th new install of bookworm!
Message-ID<IMb33-Wbi-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#269953
gene heskett composed on 2024-06-05 22:08 (UTC-0400):

> Felix Miata wrote:

>> ...or disabling the motherboard's
>> sound device in BIOS setup, whichever is applicable, before beginning
>> installation, as a possible thwart to the Gnome must have everything paradigm, if
>> blocking Gnome entirely is unacceptable.

> That might be useful advice, but the sound card is not readily 
> removable, its built into this asus motherboard

Hence, removing its functionality by disabling sound device in UEFI BIOS setup.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion,
	based on faith, not based on science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata

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#269951 — Re: about 10th new install of bullseye BUT its not Bullseye, its bookworm!

FromDavid Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com>
Date2024-06-06 03:00 +0200
SubjectRe: about 10th new install of bullseye BUT its not Bullseye, its bookworm!
Message-ID<IM9DX-V8u-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#269943
On 6/5/24 08:21, gene heskett wrote:> <snip>
> But in asking how to get rid of [orca], the subject 
> is always changed and I always get re-install instructions.  


Because that is the most practical and correct answer for your 
situation; especially given the disk access issues.


AIUI assistive technologies have been standard on FOSS graphical 
workstations for years.  It should be possible to turn assistance off, 
but it might not be possible to eliminate the machine code throughout 
the entire software stack.


I install Debian with the Xfce desktop, SSH server, and standard system 
utilities onto minimal hardware.  It takes a known amount of time and 
usually works.  I have successfully ignored assistive technologies for 
years (decades?).  Yes, the assistive technologies are wasting storage, 
memory, and cycles, and they create a larger threat surface, but those 
risks and costs are cheaper than me trying to understand and control all 
of the details.


Succeeding with software requires that you devise strategies to work 
within the limitations of the software.  Alternatively with FOSS, you 
can change the software.


David

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