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Groups > linux.debian.user > #269922 > unrolled thread

Re: about 10th new install of bullseye

Started bygene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net>
First post2024-06-04 12:30 +0200
Last post2024-06-05 23:10 +0200
Articles 20 on this page of 42 — 8 participants

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  Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-04 12:30 +0200
    Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2024-06-04 20:20 +0200
    Re: about 10th new install of bullseye David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-06-05 04:50 +0200
    Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2024-06-05 08:40 +0200
      Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2024-06-05 12:10 +0200
      Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-05 17:00 +0200
        Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-05 17:20 +0200
          Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-05 17:50 +0200
            Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-05 18:10 +0200
            Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Anssi Saari <anssi.saari@debian-user.mail.kapsi.fi> - 2024-06-06 11:50 +0200
        Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2024-06-05 23:50 +0200
          Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-06 04:00 +0200
            Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2024-06-07 00:00 +0200
              Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-07 06:30 +0200
              Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-07 07:20 +0200
                Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-07 13:20 +0200
                  Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-07 14:10 +0200
                  Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-07 14:10 +0200
                Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-07 13:40 +0200
                  Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-07 23:30 +0200
                Re: about 10th new install of bullseye David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-06-08 00:20 +0200
                  Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-08 01:20 +0200
                Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2024-06-08 03:00 +0200
                  Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-08 07:50 +0200
                    Re: about 10th new install of bullseye David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-06-08 09:30 +0200
                      Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-08 21:20 +0200
                        Re: about 10th new install of bullseye David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-06-09 00:10 +0200
                          Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-09 08:10 +0200
                        Snaps and Co [was: about 10th new install of bullseye] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2024-06-09 07:00 +0200
                    Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2024-06-09 01:30 +0200
                      Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-09 08:20 +0200
                        Re: about 10th new install of bullseye "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2024-06-09 14:00 +0200
                        Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2024-06-09 15:00 +0200
                          Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-09 16:20 +0200
                        Re: about 10th new install of bullseye Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2024-06-09 22:10 +0200
      Re: about 10th new install of bullseye BUT its not Bullseye, its  bookworm! gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-05 17:30 +0200
        Re: about 10th new install of bookworm! Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2024-06-06 00:50 +0200
          Re: about 10th new install of bookworm! gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-06 04:10 +0200
            Re: about 10th new install of bookworm! Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2024-06-06 04:30 +0200
        Re: about 10th new install of bullseye BUT its not Bullseye, its  bookworm! David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2024-06-06 03:00 +0200
    Re: about 10th new install of bullseye "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2024-06-05 19:20 +0200
      Re: about 10th new install of bullseye gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2024-06-05 23:10 +0200

Page 1 of 3  [1] 2 3  Next page →

#269922 — Re: about 10th new install of bullseye

Fromgene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net>
Date2024-06-04 12:30 +0200
SubjectRe: about 10th new install of bullseye
Message-ID<ILzAt-w9k-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
On 2/19/22 06:31, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> Hi Gene,
> 
> If this was someone calling you from a TV station saying they had a TV
> transmitter that was varying in power output - you'd have a mental checklist.
> You'd get down there, perhaps schedule some sort of power down / reduced
> power operation and then you'd check - power supplies, feeder cables, hot
> spots on cables - whatever. Divide and conquer- working back to a baseline
> of known working conditions and eliminating causes.
> 
> My suggestion to you of a reinstall is partly designed to get you out of this
> "X happens, I did Y, now I've got Z" - to get to a known initial state.
> 
> Take out all the serial converters to UPS, lathe and so on. Wireless keyboard
> doesn't present as serial in the same way that brltty does - if it did, I'd
> have brltty with every install on this laptop.
> 
> Copy off your home directory as you did before - maybe using tar.gz and preserving permissions. Start with the .iso that includes firmware - the unofficial one.
> 
> Build back slowly - do an expert text mode install if you can. Then add your
> Trinity desktop - I don't think any of us can help you there, since we don't
> run trinity.
> 
> Check and you should find that brltty isn't installed at all. Then re-add thingsgradually until you have the working system you want. Document it - write down
> the steps you take / copy configuration files you change.
> 
> That will also reveal logging / login slowdowns or whatever caused by
> individual devices as you add them back. Keep a list as you go.
> 
> That's the counsel of perfection: alternatively:
> 
> apt rdepends brltty gives me:
> 
> me@mymachine:~$ apt rdepends brltty
> brltty
> Reverse Depends:
>    Suggests: speechd-el (>= 3.7.2)
>    Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>    Suggests: orca
>    Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>    Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>    Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
> 
> You could try apt-get remove (or equivalent) on each of those packages and
> see if that clears it. I _know_ this is frustrating as all get out for you
> but a clear approach, written down so that you can remember where you got
> to will be very helpful.
> 
> If all else fails, you can then share it with the list and say "I got to
> step X with no problems, then Y happened - help me out here" and we'll
> have some better idea. We all jib at you for being vague/not indluding
> details but otherwise it is all just guesswork for the usual folk that
> hang out here.
> 
> All the very best, as ever,
> 
> Andy Cater
> 
How much longer till trixie is officially out??  What you are proposing 
sounds like several days work, and i have other irons in the fire. This 
release has been such a disaster for me because the install insists on 
installing and configuring orca and brltty w/o asking. I've done 40 some 
installs now, trying to stop it from wasting about a second while its 
yelling every keystroke at me because it thinks I'm blind. I finally 
have orca disabled and the computer is useful. The delays are a pain in 
the a$$ but i can do work now. It is not useful when orca is using 90% 
of a 6 core I5 yelling at me loud enough to announce and pronounce every 
keystroke or mouse motion/click loud enough to wake the neighbors.  The 
first 23 installs never asked me if I wanted that crap. And if you nuked 
the orca executable it would not reboot but hung forever waiting for 
orca to start. I have it usable, the installer AFAIAC is broken and I 
don't want to have to go through all that again. Until the installer 
ASKS me if I want it because it thinks I am blind, I have only one nerve 
left and and the suggestion that I do yet another install, is standing 
on it. Trying to remove it now, it insists on removing gnome and every 
dependency. I just checked again with synaptic, removing either orca or 
brltty still wants to destroy the system, Yet all I get when I fuss 
about the broken installer is "won't fix, not broken'.


> 
> .

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis

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#269931

FromFelix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net>
Date2024-06-04 20:20 +0200
Message-ID<ILGVj-AAx-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#269922
gene heskett composed on 2024-06-04 06:26 (UTC-0400):

> This release has been such a disaster for me because the install insists on 
> installing and configuring orca and brltty w/o asking. I've done 40 some 
> installs now, trying to stop it from wasting about a second while its 
> yelling every keystroke at me because it thinks I'm blind. I finally 
> have orca disabled and the computer is useful. The delays are a pain in 
> the a$$ but i can do work now. It is not useful when orca is using 90% 
> of a 6 core I5 yelling at me loud enough to announce and pronounce every 
> keystroke or mouse motion/click loud enough to wake the neighbors.  The 
> first 23 installs never asked me if I wanted that crap. And if you nuked 
> the orca executable it would not reboot but hung forever waiting for 
> orca to start. I have it usable, the installer AFAIAC is broken and I 
> don't want to have to go through all that again. Until the installer 
> ASKS me if I want it because it thinks I am blind, I have only one nerve 
> left and and the suggestion that I do yet another install, is standing 
> on it. Trying to remove it now, it insists on removing gnome and every 
> dependency. I just checked again with synaptic, removing either orca or 
> brltty still wants to destroy the system, Yet all I get when I fuss 
> about the broken installer is "won't fix, not broken'.
 
You did try simply disabling brltty & speech-dispatcher, right? Their enabler
appears not controlled by systemd, but by sysvinit:
/etc/init.d/brltty
/etc/init.d/speech-dispatcher

Deleting bits of what makes brltty & orca work, or removing their execute bits,
might save cpu cycles, e.g. for orca:
/etc/xdg/autostart/orca-autostart.desktop
/usr/bin/orca
/usr/bin/orca-dm-wrapper
/usr/lib/python3/dist-packages-orca/orca

Maybe having the following at hand would be useful:
# apt install -d orca
Reading package lists... Done
...
After this operation, 83.0 MB of additional disk space will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n] y
Get:1 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 gsettings-desktop-schemas all 43.0-1 [643 kB]
Get:2 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 at-spi2-core amd64 2.46.0-5 [57.3 kB]
Get:3 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 gir1.2-atk-1.0 amd64 2.46.0-5 [23.7 kB]
Get:4 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 gir1.2-freedesktop amd64 1.74.0-3 [37.2 kB]
Get:5 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 gir1.2-atspi-2.0 amd64 2.46.0-5 [20.7 kB]
Get:6 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 gir1.2-gdkpixbuf-2.0 amd64 2.42.10+dfsg-1+b1 [13.5 kB]
Get:7 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 gir1.2-gstreamer-1.0 amd64 1.22.0-2 [105 kB]
Get:8 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 gir1.2-harfbuzz-0.0 amd64 6.0.0+dfsg-3 [1,579 kB]
Get:9 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 libpangoxft-1.0-0 amd64 1.50.12+ds-1 [26.7 kB]
Get:10 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 gir1.2-pango-1.0 amd64 1.50.12+ds-1 [37.4 kB]
Get:11 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 gir1.2-gtk-3.0 amd64 3.24.38-2~deb12u1 [220 kB]
Get:12 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 libxcb-util1 amd64 0.4.0-1+b1 [23.2 kB]
Get:13 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 libstartup-notification0 amd64 0.12-6+b1 [23.1 kB]
Get:14 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 libxres1 amd64 2:1.2.1-1 [19.2 kB]
Get:15 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 libwnck-3-common all 43.0-3 [229 kB]
Get:16 http://www.deb-multimedia.org bookworm/main amd64 gstreamer1.0-plugins-base amd64 1.22.3-dmo1+deb12u3 [731 kB]
Get:17 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 libwnck-3-0 amd64 43.0-3 [112 kB]
Get:18 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 gir1.2-wnck-3.0 amd64 43.0-3 [28.6 kB]
Get:19 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 libproxy1v5 amd64 0.4.18-1.2 [56.2 kB]
Get:20 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 glib-networking-common all 2.74.0-4 [80.3 kB]
Get:21 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 glib-networking-services amd64 2.74.0-4 [12.0 kB]
Get:22 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 glib-networking amd64 2.74.0-4 [68.4 kB]
Get:23 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 libvisual-0.4-0 amd64 0.4.0-19 [132 kB]
Get:24 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 libvorbisidec1 amd64 1.2.1+git20180316-7 [72.3 kB]
Get:25 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 libaa1 amd64 1.4p5-50 [55.7 kB]
Get:26 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 libdv4 amd64 1.0.0-15 [74.4 kB]
Get:27 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 libshout3 amd64 2.4.6-1+b1 [56.4 kB]
Get:28 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 libtag1v5-vanilla amd64 1.13-2 [298 kB]
Get:29 http://www.deb-multimedia.org bookworm/main amd64 gstreamer1.0-plugins-good amd64 1.22.3-dmo1+deb12u1 [2,193 kB]
Get:30 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 libtag1v5 amd64 1.13-2 [18.7 kB]
Get:31 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 libv4lconvert0 amd64 1.22.1-5+b2 [143 kB]
Get:32 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 libv4l-0 amd64 1.22.1-5+b2 [109 kB]
Get:33 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 libwavpack1 amd64 5.6.0-1 [85.7 kB]
Get:34 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 libsoup2.4-common all 2.74.3-1 [56.0 kB]
Get:35 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 libsoup2.4-1 amd64 2.74.3-1 [269 kB]
Get:36 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 libatk-adaptor amd64 2.46.0-5 [9,728 B]
Get:37 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 libbrlapi0.8 amd64 6.5-7+deb12u1 [90.5 kB]
Get:38 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 libdotconf0 amd64 1.3-0.3 [14.8 kB]
Get:39 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 liblouis-data all 3.24.0-1 [1,989 kB]
Get:40 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 liblouis20 amd64 3.24.0-1 [98.6 kB]
Get:41 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 libspeechd2 amd64 0.11.4-2 [20.3 kB]
Get:42 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 python3-brlapi amd64 6.5-7+deb12u1 [146 kB]
Get:43 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 python3-cairo amd64 1.20.1-5+b1 [63.1 kB]
Get:44 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 python3-louis all 3.24.0-1 [23.6 kB]
Get:45 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 python3-pyatspi all 2.46.0-2 [41.9 kB]
Get:46 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 python3-xdg all 0.28-2 [40.5 kB]
Get:47 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 python3-speechd all 0.11.4-2 [43.1 kB]
Get:48 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 speech-dispatcher-audio-plugins amd64 0.11.4-2 [29.8 kB]
Get:49 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 speech-dispatcher amd64 0.11.4-2 [3,768 kB]
Get:50 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 xkbset amd64 0.6-3 [19.3 kB]
Get:51 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 orca all 43.1-1 [1,990 kB]
# apt install -d brltty
Reading package lists... Done
...
After this operation, 22.9 MB of additional disk space will be used.
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  brltty libbrlapi0.8 libduktape207 liblouis-data liblouis20 libpcre2-32-0 polkitd sgml-base xml-core
0 upgraded, 9 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 2,005 kB/4,183 kB of archives.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n] y
Get:1 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 libpcre2-32-0 amd64 10.42-1 [234 kB]
Get:2 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 sgml-base all 1.31 [15.4 kB]
Get:3 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 xml-core all 0.18+nmu1 [23.8 kB]
Get:4 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 libduktape207 amd64 2.7.0-2 [134 kB]
Get:5 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 polkitd amd64 122-3 [112 kB]
Get:6 http://ftp.debian.org/debian bookworm/main amd64 brltty amd64 6.5-7+deb12u1 [1,486 kB]
Fetched 2,005 kB in 1s (1,936 kB/s)
#
already downloaded for orca:
libbrlapi0.8 liblouis-data liblouis20

Knowing what installs when orca and/or brltty is asked for should allow to purge
the packages obstructing your work.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion,
	based on faith, not based on science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata

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#269938

FromDavid Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com>
Date2024-06-05 04:50 +0200
Message-ID<ILOSR-HY5-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#269922
https://www.mail-archive.com/debian-user%40lists.debian.org/msg779582.html

Gene Heskett Fri, 18 Feb 2022 09:14:03 -0800
<snip>


 > On 2/19/22 06:31, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
<snip>


On 6/4/24 03:26, gene heskett wrote:
> How much longer till trixie is officially out??  What you are proposing 
> sounds like several days work, and i have other irons in the fire. This 
> release has been such a disaster for me because the install insists on 
> installing and configuring orca and brltty w/o asking. I've done 40 some 
> installs now, trying to stop it from wasting about a second while its 
> yelling every keystroke at me because it thinks I'm blind. I finally 
> have orca disabled and the computer is useful. The delays are a pain in 
> the a$$ but i can do work now. It is not useful when orca is using 90% 
> of a 6 core I5 yelling at me loud enough to announce and pronounce every 
> keystroke or mouse motion/click loud enough to wake the neighbors.  The 
> first 23 installs never asked me if I wanted that crap. And if you nuked 
> the orca executable it would not reboot but hung forever waiting for 
> orca to start. I have it usable, the installer AFAIAC is broken and I 
> don't want to have to go through all that again. Until the installer 
> ASKS me if I want it because it thinks I am blind, I have only one nerve 
> left and and the suggestion that I do yet another install, is standing 
> on it. Trying to remove it now, it insists on removing gnome and every 
> dependency. I just checked again with synaptic, removing either orca or 
> brltty still wants to destroy the system, Yet all I get when I fuss 
> about the broken installer is "won't fix, not broken'.


I suggest:

1.  Back up the system configuration and data.

2.  Disconnect everything internal to the chassis except for the 
motherboard, power supply, front panel, fans, processor, memory, and one 
disk drive for the OS connected to the first IDE, SATA, or NVMe port.

3.  Disconnect everything external to the chassis except AC power, wired 
keyboard, wired mouse, wired monitor, and Ethernet.

4.  Boot into Setup and reset settings to factory defaults.  Choose 
between BIOS/Legacy and UEFI, if there is a choice.  Set the disk 
controller mode to AHCI.  Set the clock to UTC.

5.  Boot the disk manufacturer toolkit and wipe the OS drive -- secure 
erase for SSD's and zero-fill for HDD's.

I seem to recall that you have a 1 TB WD Black.  WD does not appear to 
offer a bootable disk drive toolkit (?):

https://support-en.wd.com/app/products/downloads/softwaredownloads

If you can find a FOSS toolkit to do a secure erase, that would be best. 
  Alternatively, find the non-zero blocks and zero them (a good job for 
a script).

6.  Boot debian-12.5.0-amd64-netinst.iso and install Debian onto the OS 
disk.  I partition manually with 1 GB EFI system partition, 1 GB boot 
partition, 1 GB random encrypted swap partition, and a small passphrase 
encrypted root partition (twice your current root partition usage?). 
Save the remaining free space for CAD, CNC, 3-D, etc., working/ scratch 
files and over-provisioning, to be configured after installation.  If 
your desktop environment of choice is not offered by d-i, do not install 
a desktop environment.

7.  At the end of installation, reboot.  Remove d-i media during POST. 
Verify the system boots from the OS disk.  Login and check vitals, but 
do not change anything.  Power off.

8.  Boot your FOSS toolkit of choice, or d-i rescue shell, and take a 
compressed image of the OS disk to a file on a USB HDD.


I use a version control system (CVS over SSH) for software development, 
but also find it to be very useful for system administration.


David

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#269939

FromTom Dial <tddial@comcast.net>
Date2024-06-05 08:40 +0200
Message-ID<ILStr-KQM-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#269922

On 6/4/24 04:26, gene heskett wrote:
> On 2/19/22 06:31, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
>> Hi Gene,
>>
>> If this was someone calling you from a TV station saying they had a TV
>> transmitter that was varying in power output - you'd have a mental checklist.
>> You'd get down there, perhaps schedule some sort of power down / reduced
>> power operation and then you'd check - power supplies, feeder cables, hot
>> spots on cables - whatever. Divide and conquer- working back to a baseline
>> of known working conditions and eliminating causes.
>>
>> My suggestion to you of a reinstall is partly designed to get you out of this
>> "X happens, I did Y, now I've got Z" - to get to a known initial state.
>>
>> Take out all the serial converters to UPS, lathe and so on. Wireless keyboard
>> doesn't present as serial in the same way that brltty does - if it did, I'd
>> have brltty with every install on this laptop.
>>
>> Copy off your home directory as you did before - maybe using tar.gz and preserving permissions. Start with the .iso that includes firmware - the unofficial one.
>>
>> Build back slowly - do an expert text mode install if you can. Then add your
>> Trinity desktop - I don't think any of us can help you there, since we don't
>> run trinity.
>>
>> Check and you should find that brltty isn't installed at all. Then re-add thingsgradually until you have the working system you want. Document it - write down
>> the steps you take / copy configuration files you change.
>>
>> That will also reveal logging / login slowdowns or whatever caused by
>> individual devices as you add them back. Keep a list as you go.
>>
>> That's the counsel of perfection: alternatively:
>>
>> apt rdepends brltty gives me:
>>
>> me@mymachine:~$ apt rdepends brltty
>> brltty
>> Reverse Depends:
>>    Suggests: speechd-el (>= 3.7.2)
>>    Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>    Suggests: orca
>>    Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>    Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>    Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>
>> You could try apt-get remove (or equivalent) on each of those packages and
>> see if that clears it. I _know_ this is frustrating as all get out for you
>> but a clear approach, written down so that you can remember where you got
>> to will be very helpful.
>>
>> If all else fails, you can then share it with the list and say "I got to
>> step X with no problems, then Y happened - help me out here" and we'll
>> have some better idea. We all jib at you for being vague/not indluding
>> details but otherwise it is all just guesswork for the usual folk that
>> hang out here.
>>
>> All the very best, as ever,
>>
>> Andy Cater
>>
> How much longer till trixie is officially out??  What you are proposing sounds like several days work, and i have other irons in the fire. This release has been such a disaster for me because the install insists on installing and configuring orca and brltty w/o asking. I've done 40 some installs now, trying to stop it from wasting about a second while its yelling every keystroke at me because it thinks I'm blind. I finally have orca disabled and the computer is useful. The delays are a pain in the a$$ but i can do work now. It is not useful when orca is using 90% of a 6 core I5 yelling at me loud enough to announce and pronounce every keystroke or mouse motion/click loud enough to wake the neighbors.  The first 23 installs never asked me if I wanted that crap. And if you nuked the orca executable it would not reboot but hung forever waiting for orca to start. I have it usable, the installer AFAIAC is broken and I don't want to have to go through all that again. Until the 
> installer ASKS me if I want it because it thinks I am blind, I have only one nerve left and and the suggestion that I do yet another install, is standing on it. Trying to remove it now, it insists on removing gnome and every dependency. I just checked again with synaptic, removing either orca or brltty still wants to destroy the system, Yet all I get when I fuss about the broken installer is "won't fix, not broken'.
> 
Hi Gene,

I, too, am not in need of the services that  brltty or orca provide, and have noticed them hanging about from time to time, although I have not encountered any difficulties like you describe.

On a bullseye system, apt-rdepends -r brltty informs me:

# apt-rdepends -r brltty
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
brltty
   Reverse Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
   Reverse Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
   Reverse Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
   Reverse Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
brltty-espeak
brltty-flite
brltty-speechd
brltty-x11

If I understand apt-rdepends correctly, you should be able to remove/purge brltty ("apt purge brltty") without removing any installed packages other than the four listed above.

apt-rdepends -r orca tells me:

# apt-rdepends -r orca
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
orca
   Reverse Depends: gnome (>= 1:3.38+3)
   Reverse Depends: gnome-orca (3.38.2-2)
   Reverse Depends: orca-sops (1.0.2-2)
gnome
gnome-orca
orca-sops

So removing orca would also take gnome, and that probably is unacceptable to you. Accordingly, you need to tame orca to find the process that causes it to run and persuade it not to do that.

I found, on a bookworm install (I have no bullseye with gnome and orca), that running orca -s from a terminal will bring up a settings panel with a check box for "Enable speech" under the "Speech" tab. Unchecking that box and selecting the "Apply" button will silence Orca. I think that leaves some of its subtasks running, as children of the systemd --user task; I am far from expert here. They do not seem to use significant resources, however.

Alternatively, you can find orca's process, for instance, with "ps -ef | grep orca", and kill it. The -HUP signal is enough. Or you can kill its parent process (third column in the ps -ef output) if it is not a necessary one, or maybe teach it how to not start orca in the first place,

I hope this is useful. Things like this can be very annoying.


Regards,
Tom Dial
> 
>>
>> .
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.

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#269940

FromFelix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net>
Date2024-06-05 12:10 +0200
Message-ID<ILVKF-MV2-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#269939
Tom Dial composed on 2024-06-05 00:05 (UTC-0600):

> gene heskett wrote:

>> How much longer till trixie is officially out??  What you are proposing sounds like several days work, and i have other irons in the fire. This release has been such a disaster for me because the install insists on installing and configuring orca and brltty w/o asking. I've done 40 some installs now, trying to stop it from wasting about a second while its yelling every keystroke at me because it thinks I'm blind. I finally have orca disabled and the computer is useful. The delays are a pain in the a$$ but i can do work now. It is not useful when orca is using 90% of a 6 core I5 yelling at me loud enough to announce and pronounce every keystroke or mouse motion/click loud enough to wake the neighbors.  The first 23 installs never asked me if I wanted that crap.

Did the first 23 include Gnome? Did you want Gnome? Do you still use or prefer
using TDE? If the latter, then you should have no need of Gnome, or its depends on
brltty or orca.

> And if you nuked the orca executable it would not reboot but hung forever waiting for orca to start. I have it usable, the installer AFAIAC is broken and I don't want to have to go through all that again. Until the 
>> installer ASKS me if I want it because it thinks I am blind, I have only one nerve left and and the suggestion that I do yet another install, is standing on it. Trying to remove it now, it insists on removing gnome and every dependency. I just checked again with synaptic, removing either orca or brltty still wants to destroy the system, Yet all I get when I fuss about the broken installer is "won't fix, not broken'.

If by "destroy" you mean remove Gnome, and you'd rather be using TDE, then let it
be "destroyed".

...

> So removing orca would also take gnome, and that probably is unacceptable to you.  

I have bunches of Debian installations, all using TDE, none with brltty, orca or
gnome. I can't remember whether Gene is trying to use TDE, but it really ought to
be an answer to his trouble, unless Gnome is kept, and brltty and orca are not
neutered.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion,
	based on faith, not based on science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata

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#269941

Fromgene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net>
Date2024-06-05 17:00 +0200
Message-ID<IM0hj-PsE-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#269939
On 6/5/24 02:05, Tom Dial wrote:
> 
> 
> On 6/4/24 04:26, gene heskett wrote:
>> On 2/19/22 06:31, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
>>> Hi Gene,
>>>
>>> If this was someone calling you from a TV station saying they had a TV
>>> transmitter that was varying in power output - you'd have a mental 
>>> checklist.
>>> You'd get down there, perhaps schedule some sort of power down / reduced
>>> power operation and then you'd check - power supplies, feeder cables, 
>>> hot
>>> spots on cables - whatever. Divide and conquer- working back to a 
>>> baseline
>>> of known working conditions and eliminating causes.
>>>
>>> My suggestion to you of a reinstall is partly designed to get you out 
>>> of this
>>> "X happens, I did Y, now I've got Z" - to get to a known initial state.
>>>
>>> Take out all the serial converters to UPS, lathe and so on. Wireless 
>>> keyboard
>>> doesn't present as serial in the same way that brltty does - if it 
>>> did, I'd
>>> have brltty with every install on this laptop.
>>>
>>> Copy off your home directory as you did before - maybe using tar.gz 
>>> and preserving permissions. Start with the .iso that includes 
>>> firmware - the unofficial one.
>>>
>>> Build back slowly - do an expert text mode install if you can. Then 
>>> add your
>>> Trinity desktop - I don't think any of us can help you there, since 
>>> we don't
>>> run trinity.
>>>
>>> Check and you should find that brltty isn't installed at all. Then 
>>> re-add thingsgradually until you have the working system you want. 
>>> Document it - write down
>>> the steps you take / copy configuration files you change.
>>>
>>> That will also reveal logging / login slowdowns or whatever caused by
>>> individual devices as you add them back. Keep a list as you go.
>>>
>>> That's the counsel of perfection: alternatively:
>>>
>>> apt rdepends brltty gives me:
>>>
>>> me@mymachine:~$ apt rdepends brltty
>>> brltty
>>> Reverse Depends:
>>>    Suggests: speechd-el (>= 3.7.2)
>>>    Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>    Suggests: orca
>>>    Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>    Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>    Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>
>>> You could try apt-get remove (or equivalent) on each of those 
>>> packages and
>>> see if that clears it. I _know_ this is frustrating as all get out 
>>> for you
>>> but a clear approach, written down so that you can remember where you 
>>> got
>>> to will be very helpful.

Any attempt to remove cura or brltty, removes gnome leaving me I assume 
with a text only system by the time gnome takes all its dependency's 
with it.  Thanks Tom.
>>>
>>> If all else fails, you can then share it with the list and say "I got to
>>> step X with no problems, then Y happened - help me out here" and we'll
>>> have some better idea. We all jib at you for being vague/not indluding
>>> details but otherwise it is all just guesswork for the usual folk that
>>> hang out here.
>>>
>>> All the very best, as ever,
>>>
>>> Andy Cater
>>>
>> How much longer till trixie is officially out??  What you are 
>> proposing sounds like several days work, and i have other irons in the 
>> fire. This release has been such a disaster for me because the install 
>> insists on installing and configuring orca and brltty w/o asking. I've 
>> done 40 some installs now, trying to stop it from wasting about a 
>> second while its yelling every keystroke at me because it thinks I'm 
>> blind. I finally have orca disabled and the computer is useful. The 
>> delays are a pain in the a$$ but i can do work now. It is not useful 
>> when orca is using 90% of a 6 core I5 yelling at me loud enough to 
>> announce and pronounce every keystroke or mouse motion/click loud 
>> enough to wake the neighbors.  The first 23 installs never asked me if 
>> I wanted that crap. And if you nuked the orca executable it would not 
>> reboot but hung forever waiting for orca to start. I have it usable, 
>> the installer AFAIAC is broken and I don't want to have to go through 
>> all that again. Until the installer ASKS me if I want it because it 
>> thinks I am blind, I have only one nerve left and and the suggestion 
>> that I do yet another install, is standing on it. Trying to remove it 
>> now, it insists on removing gnome and every dependency. I just checked 
>> again with synaptic, removing either orca or brltty still wants to 
>> destroy the system, Yet all I get when I fuss about the broken 
>> installer is "won't fix, not broken'.
>>
> Hi Gene,
> 
> I, too, am not in need of the services that  brltty or orca provide, and 
> have noticed them hanging about from time to time, although I have not 
> encountered any difficulties like you describe.
> 
> On a bullseye system, apt-rdepends -r brltty informs me:
> 
> # apt-rdepends -r brltty
> Reading package lists... Done
> Building dependency tree... Done
> Reading state information... Done
> brltty
>    Reverse Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>    Reverse Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>    Reverse Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>    Reverse Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
> brltty-espeak
> brltty-flite
> brltty-speechd
> brltty-x11
> 
> If I understand apt-rdepends correctly, you should be able to 
> remove/purge brltty ("apt purge brltty") without removing any installed 
> packages other than the four listed above.
> 
> apt-rdepends -r orca tells me:
> 
> # apt-rdepends -r orca
> Reading package lists... Done
> Building dependency tree... Done
> Reading state information... Done
> orca
>    Reverse Depends: gnome (>= 1:3.38+3)
>    Reverse Depends: gnome-orca (3.38.2-2)
>    Reverse Depends: orca-sops (1.0.2-2)
> gnome
> gnome-orca
> orca-sops
> 
> So removing orca would also take gnome, and that probably is 
> unacceptable to you. Accordingly, you need to tame orca to find the 
> process that causes it to run and persuade it not to do that.
> 
> I found, on a bookworm install (I have no bullseye with gnome and orca), 
> that running orca -s from a terminal will bring up a settings panel with 
> a check box for "Enable speech" under the "Speech" tab. Unchecking that 
> box and selecting the "Apply" button will silence Orca. I think that 
> leaves some of its subtasks running, as children of the systemd --user 
> task; I am far from expert here. They do not seem to use significant 
> resources, however.
> 
> Alternatively, you can find orca's process, for instance, with "ps -ef | 
> grep orca", and kill it. The -HUP signal is enough. Or you can kill its 
> parent process (third column in the ps -ef output) if it is not a 
> necessary one, or maybe teach it how to not start orca in the first place,
> 
> I hope this is useful. Things like this can be very annoying.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Dial
>>
>>>
>>> .
>>
>> Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
> .

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis

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#269942

FromGreg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org>
Date2024-06-05 17:20 +0200
Message-ID<IM0AG-POp-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#269941
On Wed, Jun 05, 2024 at 10:58:22AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> Any attempt to remove cura or brltty, removes gnome leaving me I assume with
> a text only system by the time gnome takes all its dependency's with it.

"assume"

This is your fundamental problem here.  Do you know what the "gnome"
package actually contains?

hobbit:~$ apt-cache show gnome
Package: gnome
Source: meta-gnome3
Version: 1:43+1
Installed-Size: 14
[...]

Installed size is 14.  I'm pretty sure that's kilobytes.

"gnome" is a meta-package.  Its purpose is to depend on a whole bunch
of other packages.  That's all.  It doesn't actually do anything by
itself.

Removing "gnome" will not remove any functionality, because "gnome" does
not *have* any functionality.

As long as you don't do an "apt-get autoremove" afterward, nothing else
will be deleted, other than what apt-get told you it was going to delete.

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#269944

Fromgene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net>
Date2024-06-05 17:50 +0200
Message-ID<IM13H-PY7-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#269942
On 6/5/24 11:18, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 05, 2024 at 10:58:22AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
>> Any attempt to remove cura or brltty, removes gnome leaving me I assume with
>> a text only system by the time gnome takes all its dependency's with it.
> 
> "assume"
> 
> This is your fundamental problem here.  Do you know what the "gnome"
> package actually contains?
> 
> hobbit:~$ apt-cache show gnome
> Package: gnome
> Source: meta-gnome3
> Version: 1:43+1
> Installed-Size: 14
> [...]
> 
> Installed size is 14.  I'm pretty sure that's kilobytes.
> 
> "gnome" is a meta-package.  Its purpose is to depend on a whole bunch
> of other packages.  That's all.  It doesn't actually do anything by
> itself.
> 
> Removing "gnome" will not remove any functionality, because "gnome" does
> not *have* any functionality.
> 
> As long as you don't do an "apt-get autoremove" afterward, nothing else
> will be deleted, other than what apt-get told you it was going to delete.
> 
> .
autoremove is the first command of my update script. Designed to get rid 
of old kernels.

But that still doesn't answer the question, How much longer till trixie 
is official? I even put a ? mark on it.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#269945

FromGreg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org>
Date2024-06-05 18:10 +0200
Message-ID<IM1n3-Qki-15@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#269944
On Wed, Jun 05, 2024 at 11:47:02AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> > As long as you don't do an "apt-get autoremove" afterward, nothing else
> > will be deleted, other than what apt-get told you it was going to delete.
> > 
> autoremove is the first command of my update script. Designed to get rid of
> old kernels.

Well.  If that's how you want to play it, then you may need to build
a metapackage of your own using "equivs".  Figure out the dependency
relationship that you want to maintain, write the control file, run
the equivs command, install the resulting .deb file.

Life is a bit simpler if you don't use autoremove.  (I purge the old
kernels by hand.)

I'm still confused by your insistence on keeping GNOME installed, though.
I thought you weren't using GNOME.  I thought you were using TDE.

And as far as orca goes, "gnome" depends on orca, and orca merely
suggests brltty.  So, removing brltty shouldn't remove orca, and orca
should be able to function without brltty.

> But that still doesn't answer the question, How much longer till trixie is
> official? I even put a ? mark on it.

Sorry, my time machine is at the mechanic.

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#269956

FromAnssi Saari <anssi.saari@debian-user.mail.kapsi.fi>
Date2024-06-06 11:50 +0200
Message-ID<IMhUR-10hV-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#269944
gene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> writes:

> But that still doesn't answer the question, How much longer till
> trixie is official? I even put a ? mark on it.

About a year since bookworm is now about a year old and Debian releases
are about two years apart.

Which reminds me, I've only updated two of my six Buster systems to
Bookworm.

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#269949

FromTom Dial <tddial@comcast.net>
Date2024-06-05 23:50 +0200
Message-ID<IM6G5-TnL-17@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#269941

On 6/5/24 08:58, gene heskett wrote:
> On 6/5/24 02:05, Tom Dial wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 6/4/24 04:26, gene heskett wrote:
>>> On 2/19/22 06:31, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
>>>> Hi Gene,
>>>>
>>>> If this was someone calling you from a TV station saying they had a TV
>>>> transmitter that was varying in power output - you'd have a mental checklist.
>>>> You'd get down there, perhaps schedule some sort of power down / reduced
>>>> power operation and then you'd check - power supplies, feeder cables, hot
>>>> spots on cables - whatever. Divide and conquer- working back to a baseline
>>>> of known working conditions and eliminating causes.
>>>>
>>>> My suggestion to you of a reinstall is partly designed to get you out of this
>>>> "X happens, I did Y, now I've got Z" - to get to a known initial state.
>>>>
>>>> Take out all the serial converters to UPS, lathe and so on. Wireless keyboard
>>>> doesn't present as serial in the same way that brltty does - if it did, I'd
>>>> have brltty with every install on this laptop.
>>>>
>>>> Copy off your home directory as you did before - maybe using tar.gz and preserving permissions. Start with the .iso that includes firmware - the unofficial one.
>>>>
>>>> Build back slowly - do an expert text mode install if you can. Then add your
>>>> Trinity desktop - I don't think any of us can help you there, since we don't
>>>> run trinity.
>>>>
>>>> Check and you should find that brltty isn't installed at all. Then re-add thingsgradually until you have the working system you want. Document it - write down
>>>> the steps you take / copy configuration files you change.
>>>>
>>>> That will also reveal logging / login slowdowns or whatever caused by
>>>> individual devices as you add them back. Keep a list as you go.
>>>>
>>>> That's the counsel of perfection: alternatively:
>>>>
>>>> apt rdepends brltty gives me:
>>>>
>>>> me@mymachine:~$ apt rdepends brltty
>>>> brltty
>>>> Reverse Depends:
>>>>    Suggests: speechd-el (>= 3.7.2)
>>>>    Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>    Suggests: orca
>>>>    Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>    Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>    Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>
>>>> You could try apt-get remove (or equivalent) on each of those packages and
>>>> see if that clears it. I _know_ this is frustrating as all get out for you
>>>> but a clear approach, written down so that you can remember where you got
>>>> to will be very helpful.
> 
> Any attempt to remove cura or brltty, removes gnome leaving me I assume with a text only system by the time gnome takes all its dependency's with it.  Thanks Tom.

Have you actually tried uninstalling brltty only, as a separate action from all others?

I have a number of gnome installations, unfortunately for this discussion all bookworm. None of them has brltty.

I have a few installations of bullseye and an older stretch installation, but none with gnome installed. On all of them, though, "apt-rdepends -r gnome" fails to list brltty as a gnome dependency. And on the bookworm systems, simulated installation of gnome ("apt install -s gnome") shows brltty as a suggested package only and would not install it along with gnome; on the stretch system, gnome installation makes no reference at all to brltty.

Is it possible you have apt settings that automatically pull in suggested packages, and that is interfering with attempts to remove brltty? I am not expert enough wrt apt and its relatives to know whether that even makes sense, and it seems a bit far fetched if maybe barely possible.

Maybe if you post the output from "apt-rdepends -r brltty" and "apt purge --simulate brltty" it will be informative.

Regards,
Tom Dial

>>>>
>>>> If all else fails, you can then share it with the list and say "I got to
>>>> step X with no problems, then Y happened - help me out here" and we'll
>>>> have some better idea. We all jib at you for being vague/not indluding
>>>> details but otherwise it is all just guesswork for the usual folk that
>>>> hang out here.
>>>>
>>>> All the very best, as ever,
>>>>
>>>> Andy Cater
>>>>
>>> How much longer till trixie is officially out??  What you are proposing sounds like several days work, and i have other irons in the fire. This release has been such a disaster for me because the install insists on installing and configuring orca and brltty w/o asking. I've done 40 some installs now, trying to stop it from wasting about a second while its yelling every keystroke at me because it thinks I'm blind. I finally have orca disabled and the computer is useful. The delays are a pain in the a$$ but i can do work now. It is not useful when orca is using 90% of a 6 core I5 yelling at me loud enough to announce and pronounce every keystroke or mouse motion/click loud enough to wake the neighbors.  The first 23 installs never asked me if I wanted that crap. And if you nuked the orca executable it would not reboot but hung forever waiting for orca to start. I have it usable, the installer AFAIAC is broken and I don't want to have to go through all that again. Until the 
>>> installer ASKS me if I want it because it thinks I am blind, I have only one nerve left and and the suggestion that I do yet another install, is standing on it. Trying to remove it now, it insists on removing gnome and every dependency. I just checked again with synaptic, removing either orca or brltty still wants to destroy the system, Yet all I get when I fuss about the broken installer is "won't fix, not broken'.
>>>
>> Hi Gene,
>>
>> I, too, am not in need of the services that  brltty or orca provide, and have noticed them hanging about from time to time, although I have not encountered any difficulties like you describe.
>>
>> On a bullseye system, apt-rdepends -r brltty informs me:
>>
>> # apt-rdepends -r brltty
>> Reading package lists... Done
>> Building dependency tree... Done
>> Reading state information... Done
>> brltty
>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>> brltty-espeak
>> brltty-flite
>> brltty-speechd
>> brltty-x11
>>
>> If I understand apt-rdepends correctly, you should be able to remove/purge brltty ("apt purge brltty") without removing any installed packages other than the four listed above.
>>
>> apt-rdepends -r orca tells me:
>>
>> # apt-rdepends -r orca
>> Reading package lists... Done
>> Building dependency tree... Done
>> Reading state information... Done
>> orca
>>    Reverse Depends: gnome (>= 1:3.38+3)
>>    Reverse Depends: gnome-orca (3.38.2-2)
>>    Reverse Depends: orca-sops (1.0.2-2)
>> gnome
>> gnome-orca
>> orca-sops
>>
>> So removing orca would also take gnome, and that probably is unacceptable to you. Accordingly, you need to tame orca to find the process that causes it to run and persuade it not to do that.
>>
>> I found, on a bookworm install (I have no bullseye with gnome and orca), that running orca -s from a terminal will bring up a settings panel with a check box for "Enable speech" under the "Speech" tab. Unchecking that box and selecting the "Apply" button will silence Orca. I think that leaves some of its subtasks running, as children of the systemd --user task; I am far from expert here. They do not seem to use significant resources, however.
>>
>> Alternatively, you can find orca's process, for instance, with "ps -ef | grep orca", and kill it. The -HUP signal is enough. Or you can kill its parent process (third column in the ps -ef output) if it is not a necessary one, or maybe teach it how to not start orca in the first place,
>>
>> I hope this is useful. Things like this can be very annoying.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Tom Dial
>>>
>>>>
>>>> .
>>>
>>> Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
>> .
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.

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#269952

Fromgene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net>
Date2024-06-06 04:00 +0200
Message-ID<IMaA1-VGK-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#269949
On 6/5/24 17:25, Tom Dial wrote:
> 
> 
> On 6/5/24 08:58, gene heskett wrote:
>> On 6/5/24 02:05, Tom Dial wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/4/24 04:26, gene heskett wrote:
>>>> On 2/19/22 06:31, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
>>>>> Hi Gene,
>>>>>
>>>>> If this was someone calling you from a TV station saying they had a TV
>>>>> transmitter that was varying in power output - you'd have a mental 
>>>>> checklist.
>>>>> You'd get down there, perhaps schedule some sort of power down / 
>>>>> reduced
>>>>> power operation and then you'd check - power supplies, feeder 
>>>>> cables, hot
>>>>> spots on cables - whatever. Divide and conquer- working back to a 
>>>>> baseline
>>>>> of known working conditions and eliminating causes.
>>>>>
>>>>> My suggestion to you of a reinstall is partly designed to get you 
>>>>> out of this
>>>>> "X happens, I did Y, now I've got Z" - to get to a known initial 
>>>>> state.
>>>>>
>>>>> Take out all the serial converters to UPS, lathe and so on. 
>>>>> Wireless keyboard
>>>>> doesn't present as serial in the same way that brltty does - if it 
>>>>> did, I'd
>>>>> have brltty with every install on this laptop.
>>>>>
>>>>> Copy off your home directory as you did before - maybe using tar.gz 
>>>>> and preserving permissions. Start with the .iso that includes 
>>>>> firmware - the unofficial one.
>>>>>
>>>>> Build back slowly - do an expert text mode install if you can. Then 
>>>>> add your
>>>>> Trinity desktop - I don't think any of us can help you there, since 
>>>>> we don't
>>>>> run trinity.
>>>>>
>>>>> Check and you should find that brltty isn't installed at all. Then 
>>>>> re-add thingsgradually until you have the working system you want. 
>>>>> Document it - write down
>>>>> the steps you take / copy configuration files you change.
>>>>>
>>>>> That will also reveal logging / login slowdowns or whatever caused by
>>>>> individual devices as you add them back. Keep a list as you go.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's the counsel of perfection: alternatively:
>>>>>
>>>>> apt rdepends brltty gives me:
>>>>>
>>>>> me@mymachine:~$ apt rdepends brltty
>>>>> brltty
>>>>> Reverse Depends:
>>>>>    Suggests: speechd-el (>= 3.7.2)
>>>>>    Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>    Suggests: orca
>>>>>    Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>    Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>    Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>
>>>>> You could try apt-get remove (or equivalent) on each of those 
>>>>> packages and
>>>>> see if that clears it. I _know_ this is frustrating as all get out 
>>>>> for you
>>>>> but a clear approach, written down so that you can remember where 
>>>>> you got
>>>>> to will be very helpful.
>>
>> Any attempt to remove cura or brltty, removes gnome leaving me I 
>> assume with a text only system by the time gnome takes all its 
>> dependency's with it.  Thanks Tom.
> 
> Have you actually tried uninstalling brltty only, as a separate action 
> from all others?
> 
> I have a number of gnome installations, unfortunately for this 
> discussion all bookworm. None of them has brltty.
> 
> I have a few installations of bullseye and an older stretch 
> installation, but none with gnome installed. On all of them, though, 
> "apt-rdepends -r gnome" fails to list brltty as a gnome dependency. And 
> on the bookworm systems, simulated installation of gnome ("apt install 
> -s gnome") shows brltty as a suggested package only and would not 
> install it along with gnome; on the stretch system, gnome installation 
> makes no reference at all to brltty.
> 
While I have both with only the radio buttons for keyboard and rodent 
plugged into usb at install time. I have only one wired keyboard and no 
wired mice as I've had a lightning strike on the pole that serves this 
house reach up and tap me by way of my fingers on the keyboard. Wasn't 
that much of a tap, I've been tapped a lot harder that that, hard enough 
to trigger a 6 month round of shingles and the burns were months 
healing. And in this case did not damage the keyboard or computer, but I 
did get the message. I've had many strikes on that pole since I built a 
garage on the end of the house, which caused me to install a 200 amp 
service and bring my grounding specs up to NEC. Zero problems since then 
(2008)

> Is it possible you have apt settings that automatically pull in 
> suggested packages, and that is interfering with attempts to remove 
> brltty? I am not expert enough wrt apt and its relatives to know whether 
> that even makes sense, and it seems a bit far fetched if maybe barely 
> possible.
> 
> Maybe if you post the output from "apt-rdepends -r brltty" and "apt 
> purge --simulate brltty" it will be informative.

Neither of those utils are installed. Should they be?

> 
> Regards,
> Tom Dial
> 
>>>>>
>>>>> If all else fails, you can then share it with the list and say "I 
>>>>> got to
>>>>> step X with no problems, then Y happened - help me out here" and we'll
>>>>> have some better idea. We all jib at you for being vague/not indluding
>>>>> details but otherwise it is all just guesswork for the usual folk that
>>>>> hang out here.
>>>>>
>>>>> All the very best, as ever,
>>>>>
>>>>> Andy Cater
>>>>>
>>>> How much longer till trixie is officially out??  What you are 
>>>> proposing sounds like several days work, and i have other irons in 
>>>> the fire. This release has been such a disaster for me because the 
>>>> install insists on installing and configuring orca and brltty w/o 
>>>> asking. I've done 40 some installs now, trying to stop it from 
>>>> wasting about a second while its yelling every keystroke at me 
>>>> because it thinks I'm blind. I finally have orca disabled and the 
>>>> computer is useful. The delays are a pain in the a$$ but i can do 
>>>> work now. It is not useful when orca is using 90% of a 6 core I5 
>>>> yelling at me loud enough to announce and pronounce every keystroke 
>>>> or mouse motion/click loud enough to wake the neighbors.  The first 
>>>> 23 installs never asked me if I wanted that crap. And if you nuked 
>>>> the orca executable it would not reboot but hung forever waiting for 
>>>> orca to start. I have it usable, the installer AFAIAC is broken and 
>>>> I don't want to have to go through all that again. Until the 
>>>> installer ASKS me if I want it because it thinks I am blind, I have 
>>>> only one nerve left and and the suggestion that I do yet another 
>>>> install, is standing on it. Trying to remove it now, it insists on 
>>>> removing gnome and every dependency. I just checked again with 
>>>> synaptic, removing either orca or brltty still wants to destroy the 
>>>> system, Yet all I get when I fuss about the broken installer is 
>>>> "won't fix, not broken'.
>>>>
>>> Hi Gene,
>>>
>>> I, too, am not in need of the services that  brltty or orca provide, 
>>> and have noticed them hanging about from time to time, although I 
>>> have not encountered any difficulties like you describe.
>>>
>>> On a bullseye system, apt-rdepends -r brltty informs me:
>>>
>>> # apt-rdepends -r brltty
>>> Reading package lists... Done
>>> Building dependency tree... Done
>>> Reading state information... Done
>>> brltty
>>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>> brltty-espeak
>>> brltty-flite
>>> brltty-speechd
>>> brltty-x11
>>>
>>> If I understand apt-rdepends correctly, you should be able to 
>>> remove/purge brltty ("apt purge brltty") without removing any 
>>> installed packages other than the four listed above.
>>>
>>> apt-rdepends -r orca tells me:
>>>
>>> # apt-rdepends -r orca
>>> Reading package lists... Done
>>> Building dependency tree... Done
>>> Reading state information... Done
>>> orca
>>>    Reverse Depends: gnome (>= 1:3.38+3)
>>>    Reverse Depends: gnome-orca (3.38.2-2)
>>>    Reverse Depends: orca-sops (1.0.2-2)
>>> gnome
>>> gnome-orca
>>> orca-sops
>>>
>>> So removing orca would also take gnome, and that probably is 
>>> unacceptable to you. Accordingly, you need to tame orca to find the 
>>> process that causes it to run and persuade it not to do that.
>>>
>>> I found, on a bookworm install (I have no bullseye with gnome and 
>>> orca), that running orca -s from a terminal will bring up a settings 
>>> panel with a check box for "Enable speech" under the "Speech" tab. 
>>> Unchecking that box and selecting the "Apply" button will silence 
>>> Orca. I think that leaves some of its subtasks running, as children 
>>> of the systemd --user task; I am far from expert here. They do not 
>>> seem to use significant resources, however.
>>>
>>> Alternatively, you can find orca's process, for instance, with "ps 
>>> -ef | grep orca", and kill it. The -HUP signal is enough. Or you can 
>>> kill its parent process (third column in the ps -ef output) if it is 
>>> not a necessary one, or maybe teach it how to not start orca in the 
>>> first place,
>>>
>>> I hope this is useful. Things like this can be very annoying.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Tom Dial

Thank you Tom

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis

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#269962

FromTom Dial <tddial@comcast.net>
Date2024-06-07 00:00 +0200
Message-ID<IMtjj-17aP-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#269952

On 6/5/24 19:53, gene heskett wrote:
> On 6/5/24 17:25, Tom Dial wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 6/5/24 08:58, gene heskett wrote:
>>> On 6/5/24 02:05, Tom Dial wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 6/4/24 04:26, gene heskett wrote:
>>>>> On 2/19/22 06:31, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Gene,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If this was someone calling you from a TV station saying they had a TV
>>>>>> transmitter that was varying in power output - you'd have a mental checklist.
>>>>>> You'd get down there, perhaps schedule some sort of power down / reduced
>>>>>> power operation and then you'd check - power supplies, feeder cables, hot
>>>>>> spots on cables - whatever. Divide and conquer- working back to a baseline
>>>>>> of known working conditions and eliminating causes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My suggestion to you of a reinstall is partly designed to get you out of this
>>>>>> "X happens, I did Y, now I've got Z" - to get to a known initial state.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Take out all the serial converters to UPS, lathe and so on. Wireless keyboard
>>>>>> doesn't present as serial in the same way that brltty does - if it did, I'd
>>>>>> have brltty with every install on this laptop.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Copy off your home directory as you did before - maybe using tar.gz and preserving permissions. Start with the .iso that includes firmware - the unofficial one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Build back slowly - do an expert text mode install if you can. Then add your
>>>>>> Trinity desktop - I don't think any of us can help you there, since we don't
>>>>>> run trinity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Check and you should find that brltty isn't installed at all. Then re-add thingsgradually until you have the working system you want. Document it - write down
>>>>>> the steps you take / copy configuration files you change.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That will also reveal logging / login slowdowns or whatever caused by
>>>>>> individual devices as you add them back. Keep a list as you go.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's the counsel of perfection: alternatively:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> apt rdepends brltty gives me:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> me@mymachine:~$ apt rdepends brltty
>>>>>> brltty
>>>>>> Reverse Depends:
>>>>>>    Suggests: speechd-el (>= 3.7.2)
>>>>>>    Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>    Suggests: orca
>>>>>>    Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>    Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>    Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You could try apt-get remove (or equivalent) on each of those packages and
>>>>>> see if that clears it. I _know_ this is frustrating as all get out for you
>>>>>> but a clear approach, written down so that you can remember where you got
>>>>>> to will be very helpful.
>>>
>>> Any attempt to remove cura or brltty, removes gnome leaving me I assume with a text only system by the time gnome takes all its dependency's with it.  Thanks Tom.
>>
>> Have you actually tried uninstalling brltty only, as a separate action from all others?
>>
>> I have a number of gnome installations, unfortunately for this discussion all bookworm. None of them has brltty.
>>
>> I have a few installations of bullseye and an older stretch installation, but none with gnome installed. On all of them, though, "apt-rdepends -r gnome" fails to list brltty as a gnome dependency. And on the bookworm systems, simulated installation of gnome ("apt install -s gnome") shows brltty as a suggested package only and would not install it along with gnome; on the stretch system, gnome installation makes no reference at all to brltty.
>>
> While I have both with only the radio buttons for keyboard and rodent plugged into usb at install time. I have only one wired keyboard and no wired mice as I've had a lightning strike on the pole that serves this house reach up and tap me by way of my fingers on the keyboard. Wasn't that much of a tap, I've been tapped a lot harder that that, hard enough to trigger a 6 month round of shingles and the burns were months healing. And in this case did not damage the keyboard or computer, but I did get the message. I've had many strikes on that pole since I built a garage on the end of the house, which caused me to install a 200 amp service and bring my grounding specs up to NEC. Zero problems since then (2008)
> 
>> Is it possible you have apt settings that automatically pull in suggested packages, and that is interfering with attempts to remove brltty? I am not expert enough wrt apt and its relatives to know whether that even makes sense, and it seems a bit far fetched if maybe barely possible.
>>
>> Maybe if you post the output from "apt-rdepends -r brltty" and "apt purge --simulate brltty" it will be informative.
> 
> Neither of those utils are installed. Should they be?

apt should be installed. As far as I know it has been included by default in the Debian base system as the preferred command line package management program since buster or earlier. I have never had to install it. You probably should if it is missing.

apt-rdepends is at least partly redundant with apt.
The command "apt-rdepends -r <package-name>", and "apt rdepends <package-name>" both show reverse dependencies of <package-name>; the latter also shows suggestions (packages that suggest <package name, I think).
If you have apt installed, you probably do not need apt-rdepends.

Regards,
Tom Dial
> 
>>
>> Regards,
>> Tom Dial
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If all else fails, you can then share it with the list and say "I got to
>>>>>> step X with no problems, then Y happened - help me out here" and we'll
>>>>>> have some better idea. We all jib at you for being vague/not indluding
>>>>>> details but otherwise it is all just guesswork for the usual folk that
>>>>>> hang out here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All the very best, as ever,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andy Cater
>>>>>>
>>>>> How much longer till trixie is officially out??  What you are proposing sounds like several days work, and i have other irons in the fire. This release has been such a disaster for me because the install insists on installing and configuring orca and brltty w/o asking. I've done 40 some installs now, trying to stop it from wasting about a second while its yelling every keystroke at me because it thinks I'm blind. I finally have orca disabled and the computer is useful. The delays are a pain in the a$$ but i can do work now. It is not useful when orca is using 90% of a 6 core I5 yelling at me loud enough to announce and pronounce every keystroke or mouse motion/click loud enough to wake the neighbors.  The first 23 installs never asked me if I wanted that crap. And if you nuked the orca executable it would not reboot but hung forever waiting for orca to start. I have it usable, the installer AFAIAC is broken and I don't want to have to go through all that again. Until the 
>>>>> installer ASKS me if I want it because it thinks I am blind, I have only one nerve left and and the suggestion that I do yet another install, is standing on it. Trying to remove it now, it insists on removing gnome and every dependency. I just checked again with synaptic, removing either orca or brltty still wants to destroy the system, Yet all I get when I fuss about the broken installer is "won't fix, not broken'.
>>>>>
>>>> Hi Gene,
>>>>
>>>> I, too, am not in need of the services that  brltty or orca provide, and have noticed them hanging about from time to time, although I have not encountered any difficulties like you describe.
>>>>
>>>> On a bullseye system, apt-rdepends -r brltty informs me:
>>>>
>>>> # apt-rdepends -r brltty
>>>> Reading package lists... Done
>>>> Building dependency tree... Done
>>>> Reading state information... Done
>>>> brltty
>>>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>> brltty-espeak
>>>> brltty-flite
>>>> brltty-speechd
>>>> brltty-x11
>>>>
>>>> If I understand apt-rdepends correctly, you should be able to remove/purge brltty ("apt purge brltty") without removing any installed packages other than the four listed above.
>>>>
>>>> apt-rdepends -r orca tells me:
>>>>
>>>> # apt-rdepends -r orca
>>>> Reading package lists... Done
>>>> Building dependency tree... Done
>>>> Reading state information... Done
>>>> orca
>>>>    Reverse Depends: gnome (>= 1:3.38+3)
>>>>    Reverse Depends: gnome-orca (3.38.2-2)
>>>>    Reverse Depends: orca-sops (1.0.2-2)
>>>> gnome
>>>> gnome-orca
>>>> orca-sops
>>>>
>>>> So removing orca would also take gnome, and that probably is unacceptable to you. Accordingly, you need to tame orca to find the process that causes it to run and persuade it not to do that.
>>>>
>>>> I found, on a bookworm install (I have no bullseye with gnome and orca), that running orca -s from a terminal will bring up a settings panel with a check box for "Enable speech" under the "Speech" tab. Unchecking that box and selecting the "Apply" button will silence Orca. I think that leaves some of its subtasks running, as children of the systemd --user task; I am far from expert here. They do not seem to use significant resources, however.
>>>>
>>>> Alternatively, you can find orca's process, for instance, with "ps -ef | grep orca", and kill it. The -HUP signal is enough. Or you can kill its parent process (third column in the ps -ef output) if it is not a necessary one, or maybe teach it how to not start orca in the first place,
>>>>
>>>> I hope this is useful. Things like this can be very annoying.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Tom Dial
> 
> Thank you Tom
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.

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#269964

Fromgene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net>
Date2024-06-07 06:30 +0200
Message-ID<IMzoJ-1bf4-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#269962
On 6/6/24 17:57, Tom Dial wrote:
> 
> 
> On 6/5/24 19:53, gene heskett wrote:
>> On 6/5/24 17:25, Tom Dial wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/5/24 08:58, gene heskett wrote:
>>>> On 6/5/24 02:05, Tom Dial wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 6/4/24 04:26, gene heskett wrote:
>>>>>> On 2/19/22 06:31, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi Gene,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If this was someone calling you from a TV station saying they had 
>>>>>>> a TV
>>>>>>> transmitter that was varying in power output - you'd have a 
>>>>>>> mental checklist.
>>>>>>> You'd get down there, perhaps schedule some sort of power down / 
>>>>>>> reduced
>>>>>>> power operation and then you'd check - power supplies, feeder 
>>>>>>> cables, hot
>>>>>>> spots on cables - whatever. Divide and conquer- working back to a 
>>>>>>> baseline
>>>>>>> of known working conditions and eliminating causes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My suggestion to you of a reinstall is partly designed to get you 
>>>>>>> out of this
>>>>>>> "X happens, I did Y, now I've got Z" - to get to a known initial 
>>>>>>> state.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Take out all the serial converters to UPS, lathe and so on. 
>>>>>>> Wireless keyboard
>>>>>>> doesn't present as serial in the same way that brltty does - if 
>>>>>>> it did, I'd
>>>>>>> have brltty with every install on this laptop.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Copy off your home directory as you did before - maybe using 
>>>>>>> tar.gz and preserving permissions. Start with the .iso that 
>>>>>>> includes firmware - the unofficial one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Build back slowly - do an expert text mode install if you can. 
>>>>>>> Then add your
>>>>>>> Trinity desktop - I don't think any of us can help you there, 
>>>>>>> since we don't
>>>>>>> run trinity.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Check and you should find that brltty isn't installed at all. 
>>>>>>> Then re-add thingsgradually until you have the working system you 
>>>>>>> want. Document it - write down
>>>>>>> the steps you take / copy configuration files you change.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That will also reveal logging / login slowdowns or whatever 
>>>>>>> caused by
>>>>>>> individual devices as you add them back. Keep a list as you go.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's the counsel of perfection: alternatively:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> apt rdepends brltty gives me:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> me@mymachine:~$ apt rdepends brltty
>>>>>>> brltty
>>>>>>> Reverse Depends:
>>>>>>>    Suggests: speechd-el (>= 3.7.2)
>>>>>>>    Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>    Suggests: orca
>>>>>>>    Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>    Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>    Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You could try apt-get remove (or equivalent) on each of those 
>>>>>>> packages and
>>>>>>> see if that clears it. I _know_ this is frustrating as all get 
>>>>>>> out for you
>>>>>>> but a clear approach, written down so that you can remember where 
>>>>>>> you got
>>>>>>> to will be very helpful.
>>>>
>>>> Any attempt to remove cura or brltty, removes gnome leaving me I 
>>>> assume with a text only system by the time gnome takes all its 
>>>> dependency's with it.  Thanks Tom.
>>>
>>> Have you actually tried uninstalling brltty only, as a separate 
>>> action from all others?
>>>
>>> I have a number of gnome installations, unfortunately for this 
>>> discussion all bookworm. None of them has brltty.
>>>
>>> I have a few installations of bullseye and an older stretch 
>>> installation, but none with gnome installed. On all of them, though, 
>>> "apt-rdepends -r gnome" fails to list brltty as a gnome dependency. 
>>> And on the bookworm systems, simulated installation of gnome ("apt 
>>> install -s gnome") shows brltty as a suggested package only and would 
>>> not install it along with gnome; on the stretch system, gnome 
>>> installation makes no reference at all to brltty.
>>>
>> While I have both with only the radio buttons for keyboard and rodent 
>> plugged into usb at install time. I have only one wired keyboard and 
>> no wired mice as I've had a lightning strike on the pole that serves 
>> this house reach up and tap me by way of my fingers on the keyboard. 
>> Wasn't that much of a tap, I've been tapped a lot harder that that, 
>> hard enough to trigger a 6 month round of shingles and the burns were 
>> months healing. And in this case did not damage the keyboard or 
>> computer, but I did get the message. I've had many strikes on that 
>> pole since I built a garage on the end of the house, which caused me 
>> to install a 200 amp service and bring my grounding specs up to NEC. 
>> Zero problems since then (2008)
>>
>>> Is it possible you have apt settings that automatically pull in 
>>> suggested packages, and that is interfering with attempts to remove 
>>> brltty? I am not expert enough wrt apt and its relatives to know 
>>> whether that even makes sense, and it seems a bit far fetched if 
>>> maybe barely possible.
>>>
>>> Maybe if you post the output from "apt-rdepends -r brltty" and "apt 
>>> purge --simulate brltty" it will be informative.
>>
>> Neither of those utils are installed. Should they be?
> 
> apt should be installed. As far as I know it has been included by 
> default in the Debian base system as the preferred command line package 
> management program since buster or earlier. I have never had to install 
> it. You probably should if it is missing.
> 
> apt-rdepends is at least partly redundant with apt.
> The command "apt-rdepends -r <package-name>", and "apt rdepends 
> <package-name>" both show reverse dependencies of <package-name>; the 
> latter also shows suggestions (packages that suggest <package name, I 
> think).
> If you have apt installed, you probably do not need apt-rdepends.

I was not aware that apt had that talent built it, thank you.

> Regards,
> Tom Dial
>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Tom Dial
>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If all else fails, you can then share it with the list and say "I 
>>>>>>> got to
>>>>>>> step X with no problems, then Y happened - help me out here" and 
>>>>>>> we'll
>>>>>>> have some better idea. We all jib at you for being vague/not 
>>>>>>> indluding
>>>>>>> details but otherwise it is all just guesswork for the usual folk 
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> hang out here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All the very best, as ever,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Andy Cater
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> How much longer till trixie is officially out??  What you are 
>>>>>> proposing sounds like several days work, and i have other irons in 
>>>>>> the fire. This release has been such a disaster for me because the 
>>>>>> install insists on installing and configuring orca and brltty w/o 
>>>>>> asking. I've done 40 some installs now, trying to stop it from 
>>>>>> wasting about a second while its yelling every keystroke at me 
>>>>>> because it thinks I'm blind. I finally have orca disabled and the 
>>>>>> computer is useful. The delays are a pain in the a$$ but i can do 
>>>>>> work now. It is not useful when orca is using 90% of a 6 core I5 
>>>>>> yelling at me loud enough to announce and pronounce every 
>>>>>> keystroke or mouse motion/click loud enough to wake the 
>>>>>> neighbors.  The first 23 installs never asked me if I wanted that 
>>>>>> crap. And if you nuked the orca executable it would not reboot but 
>>>>>> hung forever waiting for orca to start. I have it usable, the 
>>>>>> installer AFAIAC is broken and I don't want to have to go through 
>>>>>> all that again. Until the installer ASKS me if I want it because 
>>>>>> it thinks I am blind, I have only one nerve left and and the 
>>>>>> suggestion that I do yet another install, is standing on it. 
>>>>>> Trying to remove it now, it insists on removing gnome and every 
>>>>>> dependency. I just checked again with synaptic, removing either 
>>>>>> orca or brltty still wants to destroy the system, Yet all I get 
>>>>>> when I fuss about the broken installer is "won't fix, not broken'.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Gene,
>>>>>
>>>>> I, too, am not in need of the services that  brltty or orca 
>>>>> provide, and have noticed them hanging about from time to time, 
>>>>> although I have not encountered any difficulties like you describe.
>>>>>
>>>>> On a bullseye system, apt-rdepends -r brltty informs me:
>>>>>
>>>>> # apt-rdepends -r brltty
>>>>> Reading package lists... Done
>>>>> Building dependency tree... Done
>>>>> Reading state information... Done
>>>>> brltty
>>>>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>> brltty-espeak
>>>>> brltty-flite
>>>>> brltty-speechd
>>>>> brltty-x11
>>>>>
>>>>> If I understand apt-rdepends correctly, you should be able to 
>>>>> remove/purge brltty ("apt purge brltty") without removing any 
>>>>> installed packages other than the four listed above.
>>>>>
>>>>> apt-rdepends -r orca tells me:
>>>>>
>>>>> # apt-rdepends -r orca
>>>>> Reading package lists... Done
>>>>> Building dependency tree... Done
>>>>> Reading state information... Done
>>>>> orca
>>>>>    Reverse Depends: gnome (>= 1:3.38+3)
>>>>>    Reverse Depends: gnome-orca (3.38.2-2)
>>>>>    Reverse Depends: orca-sops (1.0.2-2)
>>>>> gnome
>>>>> gnome-orca
>>>>> orca-sops
>>>>>
>>>>> So removing orca would also take gnome, and that probably is 
>>>>> unacceptable to you. Accordingly, you need to tame orca to find the 
>>>>> process that causes it to run and persuade it not to do that.
>>>>>
>>>>> I found, on a bookworm install (I have no bullseye with gnome and 
>>>>> orca), that running orca -s from a terminal will bring up a 
>>>>> settings panel with a check box for "Enable speech" under the 
>>>>> "Speech" tab. Unchecking that box and selecting the "Apply" button 
>>>>> will silence Orca. I think that leaves some of its subtasks 
>>>>> running, as children of the systemd --user task; I am far from 
>>>>> expert here. They do not seem to use significant resources, however.
>>>>>
>>>>> Alternatively, you can find orca's process, for instance, with "ps 
>>>>> -ef | grep orca", and kill it. The -HUP signal is enough. Or you 
>>>>> can kill its parent process (third column in the ps -ef output) if 
>>>>> it is not a necessary one, or maybe teach it how to not start orca 
>>>>> in the first place,
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope this is useful. Things like this can be very annoying.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Tom Dial
>>
>> Thank you Tom
>>
>> Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis

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#269965

Fromgene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net>
Date2024-06-07 07:20 +0200
Message-ID<IMAb7-1bO3-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#269962
On 6/6/24 19:00, Tom Dial wrote:
> 
> 
> On 6/5/24 19:53, gene heskett wrote:
>> On 6/5/24 17:25, Tom Dial wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/5/24 08:58, gene heskett wrote:
>>>> On 6/5/24 02:05, Tom Dial wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 6/4/24 04:26, gene heskett wrote:
>>>>>> On 2/19/22 06:31, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi Gene,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If this was someone calling you from a TV station saying they had 
>>>>>>> a TV
>>>>>>> transmitter that was varying in power output - you'd have a 
>>>>>>> mental checklist.
>>>>>>> You'd get down there, perhaps schedule some sort of power down / 
>>>>>>> reduced
>>>>>>> power operation and then you'd check - power supplies, feeder 
>>>>>>> cables, hot
>>>>>>> spots on cables - whatever. Divide and conquer- working back to a 
>>>>>>> baseline
>>>>>>> of known working conditions and eliminating causes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My suggestion to you of a reinstall is partly designed to get you 
>>>>>>> out of this
>>>>>>> "X happens, I did Y, now I've got Z" - to get to a known initial 
>>>>>>> state.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Take out all the serial converters to UPS, lathe and so on. 
>>>>>>> Wireless keyboard
>>>>>>> doesn't present as serial in the same way that brltty does - if 
>>>>>>> it did, I'd
>>>>>>> have brltty with every install on this laptop.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Copy off your home directory as you did before - maybe using 
>>>>>>> tar.gz and preserving permissions. Start with the .iso that 
>>>>>>> includes firmware - the unofficial one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Build back slowly - do an expert text mode install if you can. 
>>>>>>> Then add your
>>>>>>> Trinity desktop - I don't think any of us can help you there, 
>>>>>>> since we don't
>>>>>>> run trinity.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Check and you should find that brltty isn't installed at all. 
>>>>>>> Then re-add thingsgradually until you have the working system you 
>>>>>>> want. Document it - write down
>>>>>>> the steps you take / copy configuration files you change.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That will also reveal logging / login slowdowns or whatever 
>>>>>>> caused by
>>>>>>> individual devices as you add them back. Keep a list as you go.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's the counsel of perfection: alternatively:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> apt rdepends brltty gives me:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> me@mymachine:~$ apt rdepends brltty
>>>>>>> brltty
>>>>>>> Reverse Depends:
>>>>>>>    Suggests: speechd-el (>= 3.7.2)
>>>>>>>    Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>    Suggests: orca
>>>>>>>    Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>    Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>    Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You could try apt-get remove (or equivalent) on each of those 
>>>>>>> packages and
>>>>>>> see if that clears it. I _know_ this is frustrating as all get 
>>>>>>> out for you
>>>>>>> but a clear approach, written down so that you can remember where 
>>>>>>> you got
>>>>>>> to will be very helpful.
>>>>
>>>> Any attempt to remove cura or brltty, removes gnome leaving me I 
>>>> assume with a text only system by the time gnome takes all its 
>>>> dependency's with it.  Thanks Tom.
>>>
>>> Have you actually tried uninstalling brltty only, as a separate 
>>> action from all others?
>>>
>>> I have a number of gnome installations, unfortunately for this 
>>> discussion all bookworm. None of them has brltty.
>>>
>>> I have a few installations of bullseye and an older stretch 
>>> installation, but none with gnome installed. On all of them, though, 
>>> "apt-rdepends -r gnome" fails to list brltty as a gnome dependency. 
>>> And on the bookworm systems, simulated installation of gnome ("apt 
>>> install -s gnome") shows brltty as a suggested package only and would 
>>> not install it along with gnome; on the stretch system, gnome 
>>> installation makes no reference at all to brltty.
>>>
>> While I have both with only the radio buttons for keyboard and rodent 
>> plugged into usb at install time. I have only one wired keyboard and 
>> no wired mice as I've had a lightning strike on the pole that serves 
>> this house reach up and tap me by way of my fingers on the keyboard. 
>> Wasn't that much of a tap, I've been tapped a lot harder that that, 
>> hard enough to trigger a 6 month round of shingles and the burns were 
>> months healing. And in this case did not damage the keyboard or 
>> computer, but I did get the message. I've had many strikes on that 
>> pole since I built a garage on the end of the house, which caused me 
>> to install a 200 amp service and bring my grounding specs up to NEC. 
>> Zero problems since then (2008)
>>
>>> Is it possible you have apt settings that automatically pull in 
>>> suggested packages, and that is interfering with attempts to remove 
>>> brltty? I am not expert enough wrt apt and its relatives to know 
>>> whether that even makes sense, and it seems a bit far fetched if 
>>> maybe barely possible.
>>>
>>> Maybe if you post the output from "apt-rdepends -r brltty" and "apt 
>>> purge --simulate brltty" it will be informative.
>>
>> Neither of those utils are installed. Should they be?
> 
> apt should be installed. As far as I know it has been included by 
> default in the Debian base system as the preferred command line package 
> management program since buster or earlier. I have never had to install 
> it. You probably should if it is missing.
> 
> apt-rdepends is at least partly redundant with apt.
> The command "apt-rdepends -r <package-name>", and "apt rdepends 
> <package-name>" both show reverse dependencies of <package-name>; the 
> latter also shows suggestions (packages that suggest <package name, I 
> think).
> If you have apt installed, you probably do not need apt-rdepends.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Dial
>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Tom Dial
>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If all else fails, you can then share it with the list and say "I 
>>>>>>> got to
>>>>>>> step X with no problems, then Y happened - help me out here" and 
>>>>>>> we'll
>>>>>>> have some better idea. We all jib at you for being vague/not 
>>>>>>> indluding
>>>>>>> details but otherwise it is all just guesswork for the usual folk 
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> hang out here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All the very best, as ever,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Andy Cater
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> How much longer till trixie is officially out??  What you are 
>>>>>> proposing sounds like several days work, and i have other irons in 
>>>>>> the fire. This release has been such a disaster for me because the 
>>>>>> install insists on installing and configuring orca and brltty w/o 
>>>>>> asking. I've done 40 some installs now, trying to stop it from 
>>>>>> wasting about a second while its yelling every keystroke at me 
>>>>>> because it thinks I'm blind. I finally have orca disabled and the 
>>>>>> computer is useful. The delays are a pain in the a$$ but i can do 
>>>>>> work now. It is not useful when orca is using 90% of a 6 core I5 
>>>>>> yelling at me loud enough to announce and pronounce every 
>>>>>> keystroke or mouse motion/click loud enough to wake the 
>>>>>> neighbors.  The first 23 installs never asked me if I wanted that 
>>>>>> crap. And if you nuked the orca executable it would not reboot but 
>>>>>> hung forever waiting for orca to start. I have it usable, the 
>>>>>> installer AFAIAC is broken and I don't want to have to go through 
>>>>>> all that again. Until the installer ASKS me if I want it because 
>>>>>> it thinks I am blind, I have only one nerve left and and the 
>>>>>> suggestion that I do yet another install, is standing on it. 
>>>>>> Trying to remove it now, it insists on removing gnome and every 
>>>>>> dependency. I just checked again with synaptic, removing either 
>>>>>> orca or brltty still wants to destroy the system, Yet all I get 
>>>>>> when I fuss about the broken installer is "won't fix, not broken'.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Gene,
>>>>>
>>>>> I, too, am not in need of the services that  brltty or orca 
>>>>> provide, and have noticed them hanging about from time to time, 
>>>>> although I have not encountered any difficulties like you describe.
>>>>>
>>>>> On a bullseye system, apt-rdepends -r brltty informs me:
>>>>>
>>>>> # apt-rdepends -r brltty
>>>>> Reading package lists... Done
>>>>> Building dependency tree... Done
>>>>> Reading state information... Done
>>>>> brltty
>>>>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-espeak (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-flite (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-speechd (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>>    Reverse Depends: brltty-x11 (= 6.3+dfsg-1+deb11u1)
>>>>> brltty-espeak
>>>>> brltty-flite
>>>>> brltty-speechd
>>>>> brltty-x11
>>>>>
>>>>> If I understand apt-rdepends correctly, you should be able to 
>>>>> remove/purge brltty ("apt purge brltty") without removing any 
>>>>> installed packages other than the four listed above.
>>>>>
>>>>> apt-rdepends -r orca tells me:
>>>>>
>>>>> # apt-rdepends -r orca
>>>>> Reading package lists... Done
>>>>> Building dependency tree... Done
>>>>> Reading state information... Done
>>>>> orca
>>>>>    Reverse Depends: gnome (>= 1:3.38+3)
>>>>>    Reverse Depends: gnome-orca (3.38.2-2)
>>>>>    Reverse Depends: orca-sops (1.0.2-2)
>>>>> gnome
>>>>> gnome-orca
>>>>> orca-sops
>>>>>
>>>>> So removing orca would also take gnome, and that probably is 
>>>>> unacceptable to you. Accordingly, you need to tame orca to find the 
>>>>> process that causes it to run and persuade it not to do that.
>>>>>
>>>>> I found, on a bookworm install (I have no bullseye with gnome and 
>>>>> orca), that running orca -s from a terminal will bring up a 
>>>>> settings panel with a check box for "Enable speech" under the 
>>>>> "Speech" tab. Unchecking that box and selecting the "Apply" button 
>>>>> will silence Orca. I think that leaves some of its subtasks 
>>>>> running, as children of the systemd --user task; I am far from 
>>>>> expert here. They do not seem to use significant resources, however.
>>>>>
>>>>> Alternatively, you can find orca's process, for instance, with "ps 
>>>>> -ef | grep orca", and kill it. The -HUP signal is enough. Or you 
>>>>> can kill its parent process (third column in the ps -ef output) if 
>>>>> it is not a necessary one, or maybe teach it how to not start orca 
>>>>> in the first place,
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope this is useful. Things like this can be very annoying.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Tom Dial
>>
>> Thank you Tom
>>
>> Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
In experimenting I've found a name clash, there are appprently two 
orca's. one is a speech synth, one is a slicer for 3d printers I don't 
use. Typing orca in a shell locks the shell wo any output, for several 
minutes but comes back to a prompt with a ctl-c, so I've NDC which was 
being executed. Whatevver, the installation is quite voluminous:
gene@coyote:~/AppImages$ locate orca |wc -l
1560

So I took orca out, which took gnome out. But now gnomes dependencies 
will put orca back in. So now I can't run autoremove. So one more time 
this broken damned bookworm install has bit me in a rear.

No Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis

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#269967

FromGreg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org>
Date2024-06-07 13:20 +0200
Message-ID<IMFNv-1flA-9@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#269965
On Fri, Jun 07, 2024 at 01:14:16AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> In experimenting I've found a name clash, there are appprently two orca's.
> one is a speech synth, one is a slicer for 3d printers I don't use.

Oh!  That sounds super relevant.

If you're not using the second one, where did it come from?  If it's
interfering with your desktop environment, but you're not using it,
maybe you can get rid of it.

That would be one solution path to explore.  The other... you're already
exploring, so see below.

> Typing
> orca in a shell locks the shell wo any output, for several minutes but comes
> back to a prompt with a ctl-c, so I've NDC which was being executed.

"type orca" will tell you what the shell has chosen.

"type -a orca" will tell you all the places the shell sees it, in order.

> So I took orca out, which took gnome out. But now gnomes dependencies will
> put orca back in. So now I can't run autoremove.

Install "equivs".  Read its documentation.  Read it a second time,
because it's probably too subtle to get all at once.

Pick one of the example templates (mail-transport-agent is the smallest,
so I'd use that one), make a copy of it, and modify the copy.  Get rid of
the Provides and Conflicts, and replace them with a Depends: line that's
identical to the one from "gnome", except get rid of orca.  Change the
Package name and the Description to be something meaningful to you.

I'd suggest the name gene-gnome because it's a fun pun.

Build your new .deb which depends on all the parts of GNOME except for
orca.  Install it with dpkg -i.

Since the gnome Depends: line has versioned dependencies, your custom
replacement probably won't survive a dist-upgrade, so be prepared to
undo and redo this hack when you upgrade to a new version of Debian.

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#269969

Fromgene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net>
Date2024-06-07 14:10 +0200
Message-ID<IMGzU-1fQY-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#269967
On 6/7/24 07:16, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 07, 2024 at 01:14:16AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
>> In experimenting I've found a name clash, there are appprently two orca's.
>> one is a speech synth, one is a slicer for 3d printers I don't use.
> 
> Oh!  That sounds super relevant.

I forgot to mention the speech synth is "orca", the slicer is "Orca"

> If you're not using the second one, where did it come from?  If it's
> interfering with your desktop environment, but you're not using it,
> maybe you can get rid of it.

An AppImage, rm it.

> That would be one solution path to explore.  The other... you're already
> exploring, so see below.
> 
>> Typing
>> orca in a shell locks the shell wo any output, for several minutes but comes
>> back to a prompt with a ctl-c, so I've NDC which was being executed.
> 
> "type orca" will tell you what the shell has chosen.
> 
> "type -a orca" will tell you all the places the shell sees it, in order.
> 
>> So I took orca out, which took gnome out. But now gnomes dependencies will
>> put orca back in. So now I can't run autoremove.
> 
> Install "equivs".  Read its documentation.  Read it a second time,
> because it's probably too subtle to get all at once.
> 
> Pick one of the example templates (mail-transport-agent is the smallest,
> so I'd use that one), make a copy of it, and modify the copy.  Get rid of
> the Provides and Conflicts, and replace them with a Depends: line that's
> identical to the one from "gnome", except get rid of orca.  Change the
> Package name and the Description to be something meaningful to you.
> 
> I'd suggest the name gene-gnome because it's a fun pun.
> 
> Build your new .deb which depends on all the parts of GNOME except for
> orca.  Install it with dpkg -i.
> 
> Since the gnome Depends: line has versioned dependencies, your custom
> replacement probably won't survive a dist-upgrade, so be prepared to
> undo and redo this hack when you upgrade to a new version of Debian.
> 
> .

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#269970

Fromgene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net>
Date2024-06-07 14:10 +0200
Message-ID<IMGzT-1fQY-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#269967
On 6/7/24 07:16, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 07, 2024 at 01:14:16AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
>> In experimenting I've found a name clash, there are appprently two orca's.
>> one is a speech synth, one is a slicer for 3d printers I don't use.
> 
> Oh!  That sounds super relevant.
> 
> If you're not using the second one, where did it come from?  If it's
> interfering with your desktop environment, but you're not using it,
> maybe you can get rid of it.
> 
> That would be one solution path to explore.  The other... you're already
> exploring, so see below.
> 
>> Typing
>> orca in a shell locks the shell wo any output, for several minutes but comes
>> back to a prompt with a ctl-c, so I've NDC which was being executed.
> 
> "type orca" will tell you what the shell has chosen.
> 
> "type -a orca" will tell you all the places the shell sees it, in order.
> 
>> So I took orca out, which took gnome out. But now gnomes dependencies will
>> put orca back in. So now I can't run autoremove.
> 
> Install "equivs".  Read its documentation.  Read it a second time,
> because it's probably too subtle to get all at once.

Where are the docs, it doesn't come with a manpage? Buried someplace in 
/usr/share/docs? Found it, instructs are in the README-Debian file but 
quite sparse.  Looks like it could work however. Needs more 
coffee...Lots more.

Thanks.
> 
> Pick one of the example templates (mail-transport-agent is the smallest,
> so I'd use that one), make a copy of it, and modify the copy.  Get rid of
> the Provides and Conflicts, and replace them with a Depends: line that's
> identical to the one from "gnome", except get rid of orca.  Change the
> Package name and the Description to be something meaningful to you.
> 
> I'd suggest the name gene-gnome because it's a fun pun.

Interesting. and something I've not tried on x86-64 machines. I do build 
stuff on the arm64, but this looks different from making a buildbot or 
rt kernel.
> 
> Build your new .deb which depends on all the parts of GNOME except for
> orca.  Install it with dpkg -i.
> 
> Since the gnome Depends: line has versioned dependencies, your custom
> replacement probably won't survive a dist-upgrade, so be prepared to
> undo and redo this hack when you upgrade to a new version of Debian.
> 
Noted but short term memory will probably fail.

Thank you Greg.
> .

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis

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#269968

Fromgene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net>
Date2024-06-07 13:40 +0200
Message-ID<IMG6S-1frI-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#269965
On 6/7/24 04:33, mick.crane wrote:
> On 2024-06-07 06:14, gene heskett wrote:
> 
>> So I took orca out, which took gnome out. But now gnomes dependencies
>> will put orca back in. So now I can't run autoremove. So one more time
>> this broken damned bookworm install has bit me in a rear.
>>
> I delayed logging in after starting the PC some time ago when a voice 
> boomed out the keys I was typing.
> "What the.."
> Reading this thread I purged orca and brltty on trixie and everything 
> still seems to be working.
> mick
> 
> .
Where did you get that beta trixie installer? bookworm does not allow 
that removal of orca without also removing gnome. brltty yes, but not orca.

Thanks mick.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis

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#269983

Fromgene heskett <gheskett@shentel.net>
Date2024-06-07 23:30 +0200
Message-ID<IMPjP-1l8v-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#269968
On 6/7/24 14:15, mick.crane wrote:
> On 2024-06-07 12:32, gene heskett wrote:
> 
>> Where did you get that beta trixie installer? bookworm does not allow
>> that removal of orca without also removing gnome. brltty yes, but not
>> orca.
> 
> I don't think I've got any gnome stuff.
> here probably.
> https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/weekly-builds/amd64/iso-dvd/
> mick
> 
> .
Got it, thanks mick.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis

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