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| From | Michael Bode <m.g.bode@web.de> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | ger.ct |
| Subject | Re: Told you so |
| Date | 2017-04-28 23:26 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <emhqctFk71U1@mid.individual.net> (permalink) |
| References | <mf447d.1g0.1@privat.lahls.de> <126159453449168127.662942neudert-5sl.org@reader.albasani.net> <hrulubxler.ln2@diedrich.ehlerding.dialin.t-online.de> <mf9jan$u8$1@news.albasani.net> <emhlikFu621U1@mid.individual.net> |
Am 28.04.2017 um 22:04 schrieb Hanno Foest: > Aus gegebenem Anlaß etwas Threadnekromantie. > > Am 29.03.2015 um 23:05 schrieb Hanno Foest: >> Am 29.03.2015 um 21:20 schrieb Dr. Joachim Neudert: >> >>> Die Amerikaner haben das gleich zu Ende gedacht und von Anfang an daran >>> gedacht, daß der Pilot das Problem sein könnte. >> >> Leider haben sie nicht daran gedacht, daß der Flugbegleiter, der >> ersatzweise ins Cockpit kommt, das Problem sein könnte. Was ich für >> wahrscheinlicher halte, da dessen Ausbildung nicht so gründlich ist wie >> die das Piloten. > > http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/unternehmen/konsequenz-aus-lubitz-absturz-die-2-personen-regel-fuers-cockpit-war-schon-immer-sinnlos-14991786.html > > > "[...] Piloten der großen deutschen Fluggesellschaften dürfen sich > spätestens ab Juni wieder allein im Cockpit aufhalten. Die nüchterne > Begründung des Bundesverbandes der Deutschen Luftverkehrswirtschaft > (BDL): „Die Evaluierung hat gezeigt, dass die Zwei-Personen-Regelung > keinen Sicherheitsgewinn bringt.“" Das ist noch sehr geschönt. Tatsächlich bringt sie ein Sicherheitsrisiko, wie heute im Radio zu hören war. Wenn einer der Piloten aufs Klo will, muss er die Saftschubse anrufen, die geht dann ans Telefon "Klar, ich komme gleich rein", geht dann zum Cockpit. Damit ist dem aufmerksamen Terroristen klar, jetzt geht gleich die Panzertür auf und ich kann rein. Flugtechnisch kann ein Pilot die Kiste in 2s so abschmieren lassen, dass auch Baron von Richthofen auf dem Copilotensitz nur noch beten kann. Reines Security Theater, nichts sonst. Hat aber funktioniert, die Bevölkerung hat gesehen, dass was getan wird.
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Told you so (was: Re: Flug 9525: Das iPhone war's) Hanno Foest <hurga-news2@tigress.com> - 2017-04-28 22:04 +0200
Re: Told you so (was: Re: Flug 9525: Das iPhone war's) Dr. Joachim Neudert <neudert@5sl.org> - 2017-04-28 20:18 +0000
Re: Told you so Hanno Foest <hurga-news2@tigress.com> - 2017-04-28 22:32 +0200
Re: Told you so "Dr. Joachim Neudert" <neudert@5sl.org> - 2017-04-28 23:11 +0200
Re: Told you so Hanno Foest <hurga-news2@tigress.com> - 2017-04-28 23:36 +0200
Re: Told you so "Dr. Joachim Neudert" <neudert@5sl.org> - 2017-04-28 23:48 +0200
Re: Told you so Hanno Foest <hurga-news2@tigress.com> - 2017-04-29 00:00 +0200
Re: Told you so Michael Bode <m.g.bode@web.de> - 2017-04-29 00:06 +0200
Re: Told you so Stefan+Usenet@Froehlich.Priv.at (Stefan Froehlich) - 2017-04-29 06:03 +0000
Re: Told you so Ruediger Lahl <ruediger.lahl@gmx.de> - 2017-04-29 00:33 +0200
Re: Told you so Michael Bode <m.g.bode@web.de> - 2017-04-28 23:30 +0200
Re: Told you so "Dr. Joachim Neudert" <neudert@5sl.org> - 2017-04-28 23:50 +0200
Re: Told you so Michael Bode <m.g.bode@web.de> - 2017-04-29 00:16 +0200
Re: Told you so Michael Bode <m.g.bode@web.de> - 2017-04-28 23:26 +0200
Re: Told you so Stefan+Usenet@Froehlich.Priv.at (Stefan Froehlich) - 2017-04-28 21:37 +0000
Re: Told you so "Dr. Joachim Neudert" <neudert@5sl.org> - 2017-04-28 23:41 +0200
Re: Told you so Heiner Hass <heinerh@gmx.net> - 2017-04-28 23:59 +0200
Re: Told you so Michael Bode <m.g.bode@web.de> - 2017-04-29 00:36 +0200
Re: Told you so "Dr. Joachim Neudert" <neudert@5sl.org> - 2017-04-29 08:35 +0200
Re: Told you so "Dr. Joachim Neudert" <neudert@5sl.org> - 2017-04-29 08:48 +0200
Re: Told you so Michael Bode <m.g.bode@web.de> - 2017-04-29 09:47 +0200
Re: Told you so Dr. Joachim Neudert <neudert@5sl.org> - 2017-04-29 08:58 +0000
Re: Told you so Dietz Proepper <dietz-news@rotfl.franken.de> - 2017-04-29 12:19 +0200
Re: Told you so Stefan+Usenet@Froehlich.Priv.at (Stefan Froehlich) - 2017-04-29 10:47 +0000
Re: Told you so Dietz Proepper <dietz-news@rotfl.franken.de> - 2017-04-29 14:32 +0200
Re: Told you so Stefan+Usenet@Froehlich.Priv.at (Stefan Froehlich) - 2017-04-29 12:57 +0000
Re: Told you so Gerald Gruner <gerald314@yahoo.de> - 2017-04-29 14:51 +0200
Re: Told you so Lothar Frings <Lothar.Frings@gmx.de> - 2017-04-30 00:22 -0700
Re: Told you so Holger Marzen <holger@marzen.de> - 2017-04-30 07:32 +0000
Re: Told you so Lothar Frings <Lothar.Frings@gmx.de> - 2017-04-30 04:36 -0700
Re: Told you so Diedrich Ehlerding <diedrich.ehlerding@t-online.de> - 2017-04-29 16:08 +0200
Re: Told you so Michael Bode <m.g.bode@web.de> - 2017-04-29 16:20 +0200
Re: Told you so Diedrich Ehlerding <diedrich.ehlerding@t-online.de> - 2017-04-29 16:46 +0200
Re: Told you so Stefan+Usenet@Froehlich.Priv.at (Stefan Froehlich) - 2017-04-29 15:02 +0000
Re: Told you so Diedrich Ehlerding <diedrich.ehlerding@t-online.de> - 2017-04-29 17:25 +0200
Re: Told you so Martin Gerdes <martin.gerdes@gmx.de> - 2017-04-30 00:12 +0200
Re: Told you so Gerrit Heitsch <gerrit@laosinh.s.bawue.de> - 2017-04-30 08:12 +0200
Re: Told you so Michael Bode <m.g.bode@web.de> - 2017-04-30 09:35 +0200
Re: Told you so Dr. Joachim Neudert <neudert@5sl.org> - 2017-04-30 07:46 +0000
Re: Told you so Michael Bode <m.g.bode@web.de> - 2017-04-30 10:11 +0200
Re: Told you so Lothar Frings <Lothar.Frings@gmx.de> - 2017-04-30 04:43 -0700
Re: Told you so Diedrich Ehlerding <diedrich.ehlerding@t-online.de> - 2017-04-30 09:40 +0200
Re: Told you so Stefan+Usenet@Froehlich.Priv.at (Stefan Froehlich) - 2017-04-30 08:02 +0000
Re: Told you so spamfalle2@arcor.de (Marc Stibane) - 2017-05-04 10:20 +0200
Re: Told you so Wolfgang Kynast <wky@gmx.de> - 2017-05-04 12:34 +0200
Re: Told you so Wolfgang Kynast <wky@gmx.de> - 2017-05-04 12:47 +0200
Re: Told you so Fidel-Sebastian Hunrichse-Lara <Fidel-Sebastian_Hunrichse-Lara@b.maus.de> - 2017-05-04 18:29 +0200
Re: Told you so Stefan+Usenet@Froehlich.Priv.at (Stefan Froehlich) - 2017-05-04 17:22 +0000
Re: Told you so Bernd Ullrich <ullrich_bernd@hotmail.com> - 2017-05-04 19:50 +0200
Re: Told you so Lars Gebauer <lars.gebauer@yahoo.de> - 2017-04-30 12:26 +0000
Re: Told you so spamfalle2@arcor.de (Marc Stibane) - 2017-05-04 10:20 +0200
Re: Told you so Hartmut Ott <hottm@arcor.de> - 2017-04-30 15:08 +0200
Re: Told you so Andreas Bockelmann <xotzil@gmx.de> - 2017-05-01 11:43 +0200
Re: Told you so Peter Mc Donough <mcd-mail-lists@gmx.net> - 2017-05-01 11:57 +0200
Re: Told you so Gerrit Heitsch <gerrit@laosinh.s.bawue.de> - 2017-05-01 12:07 +0200
Re: Told you so Lothar Frings <Lothar.Frings@gmx.de> - 2017-05-01 03:18 -0700
Re: Told you so Gerrit Heitsch <gerrit@laosinh.s.bawue.de> - 2017-05-01 12:23 +0200
Re: Told you so Lothar Frings <Lothar.Frings@gmx.de> - 2017-05-01 03:37 -0700
Re: Told you so Andreas Bockelmann <xotzil@gmx.de> - 2017-05-01 12:59 +0200
Re: Told you so Diedrich Ehlerding <diedrich.ehlerding@t-online.de> - 2017-05-01 13:54 +0200
Re: Told you so Gerrit Heitsch <gerrit@laosinh.s.bawue.de> - 2017-05-01 14:03 +0200
Re: Told you so Diedrich Ehlerding <diedrich.ehlerding@t-online.de> - 2017-05-01 14:15 +0200
Re: Told you so Gerrit Heitsch <gerrit@laosinh.s.bawue.de> - 2017-05-01 14:25 +0200
Re: Told you so Diedrich Ehlerding <diedrich.ehlerding@t-online.de> - 2017-05-01 14:47 +0200
Re: Told you so Gerrit Heitsch <gerrit@laosinh.s.bawue.de> - 2017-05-01 14:58 +0200
Re: Told you so Diedrich Ehlerding <diedrich.ehlerding@t-online.de> - 2017-05-01 15:20 +0200
Re: Told you so Gerrit Heitsch <gerrit@laosinh.s.bawue.de> - 2017-05-01 15:27 +0200
Re: Told you so Andreas Bockelmann <xotzil@gmx.de> - 2017-05-01 15:56 +0200
Re: Told you so v_borchert@despammed.com (Volker Borchert) - 2017-05-04 20:53 +0000
Re: Told you so Gerrit Heitsch <gerrit@laosinh.s.bawue.de> - 2017-05-05 07:38 +0200
Re: Told you so v_borchert@despammed.com (Volker Borchert) - 2017-05-04 20:55 +0000
Re: Told you so Gerrit Heitsch <gerrit@laosinh.s.bawue.de> - 2017-05-05 07:40 +0200
Re: Told you so Lars Gebauer <lars.gebauer@yahoo.de> - 2017-05-05 09:50 +0000
Re: Told you so Martin Gerdes <martin.gerdes@gmx.de> - 2017-05-05 16:32 +0200
Re: Told you so Lars Gebauer <lars.gebauer@yahoo.de> - 2017-05-05 15:04 +0000
Re: Told you so Martin Gerdes <martin.gerdes@gmx.de> - 2017-05-01 22:38 +0200
Re: Told you so Gerrit Heitsch <gerrit@laosinh.s.bawue.de> - 2017-05-02 14:16 +0200
Re: Told you so Lothar Frings <Lothar.Frings@gmx.de> - 2017-05-02 05:32 -0700
Re: Told you so Gerrit Heitsch <gerrit@laosinh.s.bawue.de> - 2017-05-02 14:35 +0200
Re: Told you so Diedrich Ehlerding <diedrich.ehlerding@t-online.de> - 2017-05-02 19:12 +0200
Re: Told you so Gerrit Heitsch <gerrit@laosinh.s.bawue.de> - 2017-05-02 19:39 +0200
Re: Told you so Andreas Bockelmann <xotzil@gmx.de> - 2017-05-02 19:51 +0200
Re: Told you so Wolfgang Εnzinger <we_usenet@nurfuerspam.de> - 2017-05-03 10:31 +0200
Re: Told you so Peter Mc Donough <mcd-mail-lists@gmx.net> - 2017-05-03 17:29 +0200
Re: Told you so Andreas Bockelmann <xotzil@gmx.de> - 2017-05-03 19:18 +0200
Re: Told you so Gerrit Heitsch <gerrit@laosinh.s.bawue.de> - 2017-05-03 19:34 +0200
Re: Told you so Lothar Frings <Lothar.Frings@gmx.de> - 2017-05-04 00:00 -0700
Re: Told you so v_borchert@despammed.com (Volker Borchert) - 2017-05-04 21:14 +0000
Re: Told you so v_borchert@despammed.com (Volker Borchert) - 2017-05-04 21:08 +0000
Re: Told you so Stefan+Usenet@Froehlich.Priv.at (Stefan Froehlich) - 2017-05-05 06:10 +0000
Re: Told you so v_borchert@despammed.com (Volker Borchert) - 2017-05-05 17:35 +0000
Re: Told you so Andreas Bockelmann <xotzil@gmx.de> - 2017-05-02 19:50 +0200
Re: Told you so Martin Gerdes <martin.gerdes@gmx.de> - 2017-05-03 12:55 +0200
Re: Told you so Stefan+Usenet@Froehlich.Priv.at (Stefan Froehlich) - 2017-05-03 11:09 +0000
Re: Told you so Lothar Frings <Lothar.Frings@gmx.de> - 2017-05-03 04:33 -0700
Re: Told you so Lars Gebauer <lars.gebauer@yahoo.de> - 2017-05-01 12:44 +0000
Re: Told you so Gerrit Heitsch <gerrit@laosinh.s.bawue.de> - 2017-05-01 15:03 +0200
Re: Told you so Ricardo Szabo <usenet13@rickszabo.de> - 2017-05-01 13:43 +0000
Re: Told you so Gerrit Heitsch <gerrit@laosinh.s.bawue.de> - 2017-05-01 15:53 +0200
Re: Told you so "Dr. Joachim Neudert" <neudert@5sl.org> - 2017-05-01 16:42 +0200
Re: Told you so Gerrit Heitsch <gerrit@laosinh.s.bawue.de> - 2017-05-01 16:49 +0200
Re: Told you so Andreas Bockelmann <xotzil@gmx.de> - 2017-05-01 17:43 +0200
Re: Told you so Dr. Joachim Neudert <neudert@5sl.org> - 2017-05-01 15:58 +0000
Re: Told you so Andreas Bockelmann <xotzil@gmx.de> - 2017-05-01 19:17 +0200
Re: Told you so Wolfgang Εnzinger <we_usenet@nurfuerspam.de> - 2017-05-01 19:45 +0200
Re: Told you so Martin Gerdes <martin.gerdes@gmx.de> - 2017-05-02 16:46 +0200
Re: Told you so Gerrit Heitsch <gerrit@laosinh.s.bawue.de> - 2017-05-02 17:18 +0200
Re: Told you so Andreas Bockelmann <xotzil@gmx.de> - 2017-05-02 19:42 +0200
Re: Told you so Gerrit Heitsch <gerrit@laosinh.s.bawue.de> - 2017-05-02 19:49 +0200
Re: Told you so Andreas Bockelmann <xotzil@gmx.de> - 2017-05-02 22:30 +0200
Re: Told you so Gerrit Heitsch <gerrit@laosinh.s.bawue.de> - 2017-05-03 09:11 +0200
Re: Told you so Martin Gerdes <martin.gerdes@gmx.de> - 2017-05-03 12:55 +0200
Re: Told you so Fidel-Sebastian Hunrichse-Lara <Fidel-Sebastian_Hunrichse-Lara@b.maus.de> - 2017-05-04 18:35 +0200
Re: Told you so Wolfgang Εnzinger <we_usenet@nurfuerspam.de> - 2017-05-03 10:31 +0200
Re: Told you so Ricardo Szabo <usenet13@rickszabo.de> - 2017-05-01 18:15 +0200
Re: Told you so Gerrit Heitsch <gerrit@laosinh.s.bawue.de> - 2017-05-01 18:19 +0200
Re: Told you so Ricardo Szabo <usenet13@rickszabo.de> - 2017-05-01 18:31 +0200
Re: Told you so Gerrit Heitsch <gerrit@laosinh.s.bawue.de> - 2017-05-01 18:38 +0200
Re: Told you so Andreas Bockelmann <xotzil@gmx.de> - 2017-05-01 19:10 +0200
Re: Told you so Gerrit Heitsch <gerrit@laosinh.s.bawue.de> - 2017-05-01 19:19 +0200
Re: Told you so Andreas Bockelmann <xotzil@gmx.de> - 2017-05-01 20:10 +0200
Re: Told you so Andreas Bockelmann <xotzil@gmx.de> - 2017-05-01 19:03 +0200
Re: Told you so Lars Gebauer <lars.gebauer@yahoo.de> - 2017-05-01 16:53 +0000
Re: Told you so Lars Gebauer <lars.gebauer@yahoo.de> - 2017-05-01 13:51 +0000
Re: Told you so Dietz Proepper <dietz-news@rotfl.franken.de> - 2017-05-01 15:51 +0200
Re: Told you so "Dr. Joachim Neudert" <neudert@5sl.org> - 2017-05-01 16:40 +0200
Re: Told you so Ricardo Szabo <usenet13@rickszabo.de> - 2017-05-01 18:18 +0200
Re: Told you so Andreas Bockelmann <xotzil@gmx.de> - 2017-05-01 15:53 +0200
Re: Told you so "Dr. Joachim Neudert" <neudert@5sl.org> - 2017-05-01 16:39 +0200
Re: Told you so Lars Gebauer <lars.gebauer@yahoo.de> - 2017-05-01 13:40 +0000
Re: Told you so Gerrit Heitsch <gerrit@laosinh.s.bawue.de> - 2017-05-01 15:51 +0200
Re: Told you so Lars Gebauer <lars.gebauer@yahoo.de> - 2017-05-01 13:58 +0000
Re: Told you so Gerrit Heitsch <gerrit@laosinh.s.bawue.de> - 2017-05-01 16:04 +0200
Re: Told you so Lars Gebauer <lars.gebauer@yahoo.de> - 2017-05-01 14:21 +0000
Re: Told you so Andreas Bockelmann <xotzil@gmx.de> - 2017-05-01 15:50 +0200
Re: Told you so Lars Gebauer <lars.gebauer@yahoo.de> - 2017-05-01 13:59 +0000
Re: Told you so Dietz Proepper <dietz-news@rotfl.franken.de> - 2017-05-01 16:07 +0200
Re: Told you so Lars Gebauer <lars.gebauer@yahoo.de> - 2017-05-01 14:28 +0000
Re: Told you so Andreas Bockelmann <xotzil@gmx.de> - 2017-05-01 17:39 +0200
Re: Told you so Wolfgang Kynast <wky@gmx.de> - 2017-05-01 16:25 +0200
Re: Told you so Jörg Tewes <jogi1964@gmx.net> - 2017-05-01 22:20 +0200
Re: Told you so Andreas Bockelmann <xotzil@gmx.de> - 2017-05-01 15:02 +0200
Re: Told you so Lothar Frings <Lothar.Frings@gmx.de> - 2017-05-01 14:34 -0700
Re: Told you so Jörg Tewes <jogi1964@gmx.net> - 2017-05-01 12:41 +0200
Re: Told you so Stefan+Usenet@Froehlich.Priv.at (Stefan Froehlich) - 2017-05-01 13:01 +0000
Re: Told you so Gerrit Heitsch <gerrit@laosinh.s.bawue.de> - 2017-05-01 15:09 +0200
Re: Told you so Diedrich Ehlerding <diedrich.ehlerding@t-online.de> - 2017-05-01 15:54 +0200
Re: Told you so Gerrit Heitsch <gerrit@laosinh.s.bawue.de> - 2017-05-01 15:57 +0200
Re: Told you so Wolfgang Kynast <wky@gmx.de> - 2017-05-01 16:28 +0200
Re: Told you so Andreas Bockelmann <xotzil@gmx.de> - 2017-05-01 16:05 +0200
Re: Told you so Matthias Eißing <meissing@gmx.de> - 2017-05-01 14:25 +0000
Re: Told you so Lars Gebauer <lars.gebauer@yahoo.de> - 2017-05-01 14:30 +0000
Re: Told you so Matthias Eißing <meissing@gmx.de> - 2017-05-01 14:41 +0000
Re: Told you so "Alex S." <alexs.nospam@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-01 14:33 +0000
Re: Told you so Stefan+Usenet@Froehlich.Priv.at (Stefan Froehlich) - 2017-05-01 19:06 +0000
Re: Told you so Gerrit Heitsch <gerrit@laosinh.s.bawue.de> - 2017-05-01 21:11 +0200
Re: Told you so Jörg Tewes <jogi1964@gmx.net> - 2017-05-01 22:22 +0200
Re: Told you so Lothar Frings <Lothar.Frings@gmx.de> - 2017-05-01 14:42 -0700
Re: Told you so Dr. Joachim Neudert <neudert@5sl.org> - 2017-05-02 05:22 +0000
Re: Told you so Peter Mc Donough <mcd-mail-lists@gmx.net> - 2017-05-01 12:23 +0200
Re: Told you so Andreas Bockelmann <xotzil@gmx.de> - 2017-05-01 12:57 +0200
Re: Told you so Jörg Tewes <jogi1964@gmx.net> - 2017-05-01 13:30 +0200
Re: Told you so Andreas Bockelmann <xotzil@gmx.de> - 2017-05-01 14:04 +0200
Re: Told you so Jörg Tewes <jogi1964@gmx.net> - 2017-05-01 21:54 +0200
Re: Told you so Lothar Frings <Lothar.Frings@gmx.de> - 2017-05-01 03:15 -0700
Re: Told you so Siegfried Blos <Siegfried.Blos@siemens.com> - 2017-05-05 10:29 +0200
Re: Told you so Andreas Bockelmann <xotzil@gmx.de> - 2017-05-01 11:39 +0200
Re: Told you so Martin Gerdes <martin.gerdes@gmx.de> - 2017-05-01 14:50 +0200
Re: Told you so Andreas Bockelmann <xotzil@gmx.de> - 2017-05-01 15:13 +0200
Re: Told you so "Alex S." <alexs.nospam@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-01 14:33 +0000
Re: Told you so spamfalle2@arcor.de (Marc Stibane) - 2017-05-04 10:20 +0200
Re: Told you so Lothar Frings <Lothar.Frings@gmx.de> - 2017-04-30 00:15 -0700
Re: Told you so Hanno Foest <hurga-news2@tigress.com> - 2017-04-29 16:42 +0200
Re: Told you so Dr. Joachim Neudert <neudert@5sl.org> - 2017-04-29 14:46 +0000
Re: Told you so Andreas Bockelmann <xotzil@gmx.de> - 2017-05-01 11:26 +0200
Re: Told you so Peter Mc Donough <mcd-mail-lists@gmx.net> - 2017-05-01 12:20 +0200
Re: Told you so Andreas Bockelmann <xotzil@gmx.de> - 2017-05-01 12:53 +0200
Re: Told you so Peter Mc Donough <mcd-mail-lists@gmx.net> - 2017-05-01 13:40 +0200
Re: Told you so Michael Bode <m.g.bode@web.de> - 2017-05-01 13:37 +0200
Re: Told you so Peter Mc Donough <mcd-mail-lists@gmx.net> - 2017-05-01 13:43 +0200
Re: Told you so Michael Bode <m.g.bode@web.de> - 2017-05-01 13:58 +0200
Re: Told you so Peter Mc Donough <mcd-mail-lists@gmx.net> - 2017-05-01 14:52 +0200
Re: Told you so Martin Gerdes <martin.gerdes@gmx.de> - 2017-05-01 22:38 +0200
Re: Told you so "Alex S." <alexs.nospam@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-01 14:33 +0000
Re: Told you so Gerald Gruner <gerald314@yahoo.de> - 2017-04-29 14:51 +0200
Re: Told you so Martin Gerdes <martin.gerdes@gmx.de> - 2017-04-30 00:12 +0200
Re: Told you so (was: Re: Flug 9525: Das iPhone war's) Dietz Proepper <dietz-news@rotfl.franken.de> - 2017-04-29 12:10 +0200
Re: Told you so Michael Zink <michael@swamp.franken.de> - 2017-04-30 09:27 +0200
csiph-web