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MacLINUX

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  MacLINUX Fred McKenzie <fmmck@aol.com> - 2014-01-17 18:31 -0500
    Re: MacLINUX JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2014-01-17 18:38 -0500
      Re: MacLINUX Fred McKenzie <fmmck@aol.com> - 2014-01-17 23:28 -0500
        Re: MacLINUX JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2014-01-18 00:18 -0500
    Re: MacLINUX Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2014-01-17 17:40 -0800
      Re: MacLINUX Fred McKenzie <fmmck@aol.com> - 2014-01-17 23:16 -0500
    Re: MacLINUX Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtrie@pixelmemory.us> - 2014-01-17 22:37 -0800
      Re: MacLINUX isw <isw@witzend.com> - 2014-01-18 13:45 -0800
        Re: MacLINUX Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtrie@pixelmemory.us> - 2014-01-18 17:01 -0800
        Re: MacLINUX Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2014-01-19 10:41 -0500
          Re: MacLINUX Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-01-19 18:58 +0000
    Re: MacLINUX Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2014-01-18 10:52 -0500
      Re: MacLINUX Fred McKenzie <fmmck@aol.com> - 2014-01-18 16:37 -0500
        Re: MacLINUX Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> - 2014-01-18 14:35 -0800
          Re: MacLINUX Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-01-19 04:26 +0000
        Re: MacLINUX Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-01-19 01:54 +0000
        Re: MacLINUX Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2014-01-20 12:52 -0800
    Re: MacLINUX Barry OGrady <atheist@hotmail.com.au> - 2014-01-20 14:57 +1100
      Re: MacLINUX "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <gsm@mendelson.com> - 2014-01-20 04:54 +0000
        Re: MacLINUX Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-01-20 05:02 +0000
          Re: MacLINUX "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <gsm@mendelson.com> - 2014-01-20 09:34 +0000
            Re: MacLINUX Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-01-20 18:35 +0000
              Re: MacLINUX "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <gsm@mendelson.com> - 2014-01-20 19:19 +0000
                Re: MacLINUX Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-01-20 19:54 +0000
              Re: MacLINUX Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> - 2014-01-20 13:13 -0800
                Re: MacLINUX Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2014-01-20 14:04 -0800
                  Re: MacLINUX Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> - 2014-01-20 14:10 -0800
                    Re: MacLINUX Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2014-01-20 14:25 -0800
                  Re: MacLINUX Fred McKenzie <fmmck@aol.com> - 2014-01-20 18:38 -0500
                    Re: MacLINUX Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2014-01-20 16:45 -0800
                      Re: MacLINUX Fred McKenzie <fmmck@aol.com> - 2014-01-21 12:26 -0500
                        Re: MacLINUX Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-01-21 17:41 +0000
                          Re: MacLINUX Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2014-01-21 10:24 -0800
                            Re: MacLINUX Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-01-21 20:48 +0000
                              Re: MacLINUX Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2014-01-21 12:55 -0800
                                Re: MacLINUX Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-01-21 21:20 +0000
                                  Re: MacLINUX Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2014-01-21 13:47 -0800
                                  Re: MacLINUX Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> - 2014-01-22 02:22 -0800
                                    Re: MacLINUX Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-01-22 16:28 +0000
      Re: MacLINUX Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-01-20 05:01 +0000
    Re: MacLINUX "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <gsm@mendelson.com> - 2014-01-20 19:19 +0000
      Re: MacLINUX Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2014-01-20 19:55 +0000

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#55046

Jolly Roger wrote:
>
> I'm pretty sure you're both saying essentially the same thing. At least
> that's how I interpreted his statement. : )
>

No, some of the commands are different. For example, the cp command
for linux takes an -a argument, while the BSD cp command takes -R and
requires you to have or not have a / at the end of the from argument.
(I forget which).

The lp type commands (command line printing) are different but since Apple
bought CUPS, was that Tiger?, MacOs uses the CUPS versions, which are now
standard in most Linux distributions instead of the Linux ones.

The shells were different too, BSD uses sh (Bourne shell), and CSH (C shell),
while Linux uses BASH (Bourne again shell). Later versions of MacOs use
BASH, and a stripped down version of BASH as sh, but also include CSH and
a version of KSH.

There were also SYSV (pronounced sys 5) UNIX versions of the commands which
were closer to what became the Linux versions, but not the same.

Geoff.

-- 
Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379

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#55058

On 2014-01-20, Geoffrey S. Mendelson <gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:
> Jolly Roger wrote:
>>
>> I'm pretty sure you're both saying essentially the same thing. At least
>> that's how I interpreted his statement. : )
>
> No, some of the commands are different. 

*sigh*...

Again, I think he was saying "Mac Linux" tongue-in-cheek. I'm not
suggesting he actually thinks Mac OS X is Linux. Rather, I think he is
suggesting that a large swath of the Mac OS X Unix environment is very
similar to many Linux distributions. This is actually the case. While
some things are indeed different, very many things are similar enough
that for many purposes, one can use Mac OS X for the same things for
which one might use Linux.  I don't see anyone here stating that Mac OS
X is exactly the same as Linux.

If that's not how you interpreted his statement, so be it.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#55061

Jolly Roger wrote:
>
> If that's not how you interpreted his statement, so be it.
>
The way I interpeted it was the he wanted actual Linux experience on his
Mac so that he could transfer it directly to his Raspberry Pi. 

I think he said that in his first post. I also think he specified the 
distro that he wanted to use. 

Geoff.

-- 
Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379

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#55063

On 2014-01-20, Geoffrey S. Mendelson <gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:
> Jolly Roger wrote:
>>
>> If that's not how you interpreted his statement, so be it.
>>
> The way I interpeted it was the he wanted actual Linux experience on his
> Mac so that he could transfer it directly to his Raspberry Pi. 
>
> I think he said that in his first post. I also think he specified the 
> distro that he wanted to use. 

See, this is why you probably shouldn't make a habit of trimming so much
quoted material in your replies. You apparently think I am talking about
the OP, which is not the case. It's well established that the OP wants a
way to run Linux on his Mac. That's not up for contention. Please try to
follow the sub-thread more closely.

I'm referring to Barry OGrady's statement:

On 2014-01-20, Barry OGrady <atheist@hotmail.com.au> wrote:
>
> If you have OSX installed you have Darwin Linux installed.

Again, and hopefully for the last time, I don't think Barry was
suggesting that Mac OS X is (or is based on) Linux. I think what Barry
is suggesting is that for many uses, Mac OS X is just as suitable as
Linux. And I would agree with that assessment. If one were to
learn the Mac OS X command-line environment, one would certainly find
Linux familiar in a lot of important ways. So the OP might find that
getting familiar with what he already has running on his machine (Mac OS
X) provides a lot of education about command-line environments that can
be applied to most Linux distributions. That's all I'm saying here. If
you still don't understand what I am saying, I'm afraid I'm at a loss
for what more I can do for you here, because I've just about exhausted
the usefulness of this exchange with you as far as I can tell. Best of
luck!

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#55084

In article <bk58kdF4k42U2@mid.individual.net>,
 Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> On 2014-01-20, Geoffrey S. Mendelson <gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:
> > Jolly Roger wrote:
> >>
> >> I'm pretty sure you're both saying essentially the same thing. At least
> >> that's how I interpreted his statement. : )
> >
> > No, some of the commands are different. 
> 
> *sigh*...
> 
> Again, I think he was saying "Mac Linux" tongue-in-cheek. I'm not
> suggesting he actually thinks Mac OS X is Linux. Rather, I think he is
> suggesting that a large swath of the Mac OS X Unix environment is very
> similar to many Linux distributions. This is actually the case. While
> some things are indeed different, very many things are similar enough
> that for many purposes, one can use Mac OS X for the same things for
> which one might use Linux.  I don't see anyone here stating that Mac OS
> X is exactly the same as Linux.
> 
> If that's not how you interpreted his statement, so be it.

This is an excellent business opportunity.  Port the Linux tools for 
Rassberry Pi development to MacOS and sell them through the Mac Store.  
That way you'll be doing your Rassberry Pi development, you'll have 
working tools, and you might be making some money.  

Installing Linux on a Mac directly is a non-starter.  It can run in 
VirtualBox (free), Fusion or Parallels ($80).  Or port the tools to 
MacOS.  Time to move on.

-- 
DeeDee, don't press that button!  DeeDee!  NO!  Dee...
[I filter all Goggle Groups posts, so any reply may be automatically ignored]

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#55094

Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> writes:

> In article <bk58kdF4k42U2@mid.individual.net>,
>  Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> 
> > On 2014-01-20, Geoffrey S. Mendelson <gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:
> > > Jolly Roger wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I'm pretty sure you're both saying essentially the same thing. At least
> > >> that's how I interpreted his statement. : )
> > >
> > > No, some of the commands are different. 
> > 
> > *sigh*...
> > 
> > Again, I think he was saying "Mac Linux" tongue-in-cheek. I'm not
> > suggesting he actually thinks Mac OS X is Linux. Rather, I think he is
> > suggesting that a large swath of the Mac OS X Unix environment is very
> > similar to many Linux distributions. This is actually the case. While
> > some things are indeed different, very many things are similar enough
> > that for many purposes, one can use Mac OS X for the same things for
> > which one might use Linux.  I don't see anyone here stating that Mac OS
> > X is exactly the same as Linux.
> > 
> > If that's not how you interpreted his statement, so be it.
> 
> This is an excellent business opportunity.  Port the Linux tools for 
> Rassberry Pi development to MacOS and sell them through the Mac Store.  
> That way you'll be doing your Rassberry Pi development, you'll have 
> working tools, and you might be making some money.  
> 
> Installing Linux on a Mac directly is a non-starter.

It really isn't that bad.  Admittedly it wasn't crystal clear how to
do everything, but it took me about an hour, and if I'd had the good
sense to take notes, I could have written a page of instructions making
it easy for anyone else.

Likely others have done this (written the instructions).

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#55096

In article <mjlhyaz4x0.fsf@ethel.the.log>,
 Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:

> Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> writes:
> 
> > In article <bk58kdF4k42U2@mid.individual.net>,
> >  Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > On 2014-01-20, Geoffrey S. Mendelson <gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:
> > > > Jolly Roger wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> I'm pretty sure you're both saying essentially the same thing. At least
> > > >> that's how I interpreted his statement. : )
> > > >
> > > > No, some of the commands are different. 
> > > 
> > > *sigh*...
> > > 
> > > Again, I think he was saying "Mac Linux" tongue-in-cheek. I'm not
> > > suggesting he actually thinks Mac OS X is Linux. Rather, I think he is
> > > suggesting that a large swath of the Mac OS X Unix environment is very
> > > similar to many Linux distributions. This is actually the case. While
> > > some things are indeed different, very many things are similar enough
> > > that for many purposes, one can use Mac OS X for the same things for
> > > which one might use Linux.  I don't see anyone here stating that Mac OS
> > > X is exactly the same as Linux.
> > > 
> > > If that's not how you interpreted his statement, so be it.
> > 
> > This is an excellent business opportunity.  Port the Linux tools for 
> > Rassberry Pi development to MacOS and sell them through the Mac Store.  
> > That way you'll be doing your Rassberry Pi development, you'll have 
> > working tools, and you might be making some money.  
> > 
> > Installing Linux on a Mac directly is a non-starter.
> 
> It really isn't that bad.  Admittedly it wasn't crystal clear how to
> do everything, but it took me about an hour, and if I'd had the good
> sense to take notes, I could have written a page of instructions making
> it easy for anyone else.
> 
> Likely others have done this (written the instructions).

The instructions you posted say they don't work with all Mac models.  
Which tells me that maybe the boot code is hardware specific and needs 
to be tweeked depending on the Mac model.

Doing specific partitioning and whatnot isn't really that much of a 
problem, but I wonder if the OP can cope with that?

-- 
DeeDee, don't press that button!  DeeDee!  NO!  Dee...
[I filter all Goggle Groups posts, so any reply may be automatically ignored]

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#55098

Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> writes:

> In article <mjlhyaz4x0.fsf@ethel.the.log>,
>  Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> writes:
> > 
> > > In article <bk58kdF4k42U2@mid.individual.net>,
> > >  Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > On 2014-01-20, Geoffrey S. Mendelson <gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:
> > > > > Jolly Roger wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I'm pretty sure you're both saying essentially the same thing. At least
> > > > >> that's how I interpreted his statement. : )
> > > > >
> > > > > No, some of the commands are different. 
> > > > 
> > > > *sigh*...
> > > > 
> > > > Again, I think he was saying "Mac Linux" tongue-in-cheek. I'm not
> > > > suggesting he actually thinks Mac OS X is Linux. Rather, I think he is
> > > > suggesting that a large swath of the Mac OS X Unix environment is very
> > > > similar to many Linux distributions. This is actually the case. While
> > > > some things are indeed different, very many things are similar enough
> > > > that for many purposes, one can use Mac OS X for the same things for
> > > > which one might use Linux.  I don't see anyone here stating that Mac OS
> > > > X is exactly the same as Linux.
> > > > 
> > > > If that's not how you interpreted his statement, so be it.
> > > 
> > > This is an excellent business opportunity.  Port the Linux tools for 
> > > Rassberry Pi development to MacOS and sell them through the Mac Store.  
> > > That way you'll be doing your Rassberry Pi development, you'll have 
> > > working tools, and you might be making some money.  
> > > 
> > > Installing Linux on a Mac directly is a non-starter.
> > 
> > It really isn't that bad.  Admittedly it wasn't crystal clear how to
> > do everything, but it took me about an hour, and if I'd had the good
> > sense to take notes, I could have written a page of instructions making
> > it easy for anyone else.
> > 
> > Likely others have done this (written the instructions).
> 
> The instructions you posted say they don't work with all Mac models.  
> Which tells me that maybe the boot code is hardware specific and needs 
> to be tweeked depending on the Mac model.

Certainly one has to make sure that rEFIt (or rEFInd, which is the
other alternative) works on one's hardware.

I presume someone who is playing with a Pi is up to that.
 
> Doing specific partitioning and whatnot isn't really that much of a 
> problem, but I wonder if the OP can cope with that?

Certainly it would be useful to have a good set of instructions for
doing that.

At work we had a server crash in early October.  I'm not in the
computer support business, but it became clear that our support people
were not going to put a critical system back together in a timely way.

I took a three-year old spare iMac, and in about 4 hours, got it dual
booting OS X/Ubuntu Linux, installed our server software on it, transferred
the data from backup, and got it running (on a dynamic IP number, but
at least usably).

It ran under heavy use without a hiccup for about 10 weeks until there
was a lull and we could move it to another machine.

So I resist the idea that installing Linux directly on Apple hardware
is prohibitively difficult, though it isn't a job for someone who
knows nothing besides office software.

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#55104

In article <mjlhyaz4x0.fsf@ethel.the.log>,
 Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Installing Linux on a Mac directly is a non-starter.
> 
> It really isn't that bad.  Admittedly it wasn't crystal clear how to
> do everything, but it took me about an hour, and if I'd had the good
> sense to take notes, I could have written a page of instructions making
> it easy for anyone else.
> 
> Likely others have done this (written the instructions).

I'm not exactly the one only familiar with office software, but not too 
far behind!  If I hadn't moved up from TRSDOS and CP/M to a Mac 512, I 
might not be having any trouble with LINUX!

The websites I've found with instructions, seem to all be either 
referring to using a virtual machine or partitioning a Mac's (only) HD.  
Definitely not installing LINUX to a fourth hard drive.

Even the rEFIt program appears to be geared to working with HD number 
one and maybe two.  In my early trials, I noticed it only listed 
partition data on two of my four drives.  I assume the terminal command 
used to activate it (sudo /efi/rEFIt/enable.sh) operates on the booted 
OS X drive, not necessarily the fourth drive with LINUX installed.  I'm 
not smart enough to adjust the command to work on a different drive.

So I figured rather than fight it, I'd join the crowd.  I partitioned 
the 500 GB HD with 100 GB and 400 GB partitions.  I then deleted the 400 
GB partition and installed OS X on the other.

I installed from a Debian Live 7.2 AMD64 Gnome DVD, choosing the 
"largest free space" option.  The only adjustment I made to the 
suggested partition scheme was to set the boot flag on the / partition.

To get it to work, it was necessary to set HD4 as the default startup 
drive and re-install rEFIt.  I issued the terminal command from HD4 to 
activate it, and used the rEFIt partition utility to "fix" the 
partitions.

Still it took several reboots before everything worked.  Using rEFIt 
during the boot process did not help.  Eventually, holding down the 
option key during booting let me select one of two "windows" drives that 
appeared.  One did not work, but the other did!  (I take it the two 
LINUX partitions show up as two separate drives.)

So Debian works now.  But it does not look much like Raspbian!

Fred

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#55117

Fred McKenzie <fmmck@aol.com> writes:

> In article <mjlhyaz4x0.fsf@ethel.the.log>,
>  Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > > Installing Linux on a Mac directly is a non-starter.
> > 
> > It really isn't that bad.  Admittedly it wasn't crystal clear how to
> > do everything, but it took me about an hour, and if I'd had the good
> > sense to take notes, I could have written a page of instructions making
> > it easy for anyone else.
> > 
> > Likely others have done this (written the instructions).
> 
> I'm not exactly the one only familiar with office software, but not too 
> far behind!  If I hadn't moved up from TRSDOS and CP/M to a Mac 512, I 
> might not be having any trouble with LINUX!
> 
> The websites I've found with instructions, seem to all be either 
> referring to using a virtual machine or partitioning a Mac's (only) HD.  
> Definitely not installing LINUX to a fourth hard drive.
> 
> Even the rEFIt program appears to be geared to working with HD number 
> one and maybe two.  In my early trials, I noticed it only listed 
> partition data on two of my four drives.  I assume the terminal command 
> used to activate it (sudo /efi/rEFIt/enable.sh) operates on the booted 
> OS X drive, not necessarily the fourth drive with LINUX installed.  I'm 
> not smart enough to adjust the command to work on a different drive.
> 
> So I figured rather than fight it, I'd join the crowd.  I partitioned 
> the 500 GB HD with 100 GB and 400 GB partitions.  I then deleted the 400 
> GB partition and installed OS X on the other.
> 
> I installed from a Debian Live 7.2 AMD64 Gnome DVD, choosing the 
> "largest free space" option.  The only adjustment I made to the 
> suggested partition scheme was to set the boot flag on the / partition.
> 
> To get it to work, it was necessary to set HD4 as the default startup 
> drive and re-install rEFIt.  I issued the terminal command from HD4 to 
> activate it, and used the rEFIt partition utility to "fix" the 
> partitions.
> 
> Still it took several reboots before everything worked.  Using rEFIt 
> during the boot process did not help.  Eventually, holding down the 
> option key during booting let me select one of two "windows" drives that 
> appeared.  One did not work, but the other did!  (I take it the two 
> LINUX partitions show up as two separate drives.)
> 
> So Debian works now.  But it does not look much like Raspbian!

It looks a lot like it at the system level:  the filesystem, the
shell, the utility programs, etc.

The Gnome GUI might be very different looking than the GUI you have on
Raspbian (or you may not have a GUI on Raspbian).

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#55164

In article <ll61pew4c2.fsf@ethel.the.log>,
 Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:

> It looks a lot like it at the system level:  the filesystem, the
> shell, the utility programs, etc.
> 
> The Gnome GUI might be very different looking than the GUI you have on
> Raspbian (or you may not have a GUI on Raspbian).

I replaced Gnome with LXDE, and it has a simpler desktop.  It is 
probably as close as I will get to Raspbian on a Mac.

Fred

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#55165

On 2014-01-21, Fred McKenzie <fmmck@aol.com> wrote:
> In article <ll61pew4c2.fsf@ethel.the.log>,
>  Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It looks a lot like it at the system level:  the filesystem, the
>> shell, the utility programs, etc.
>> 
>> The Gnome GUI might be very different looking than the GUI you have on
>> Raspbian (or you may not have a GUI on Raspbian).
>
> I replaced Gnome with LXDE, and it has a simpler desktop.  It is 
> probably as close as I will get to Raspbian on a Mac.

Why would you bother attempting to duplicate Raspbian on Mac anyway?

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#55166

Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> writes:

> On 2014-01-21, Fred McKenzie <fmmck@aol.com> wrote:
> > In article <ll61pew4c2.fsf@ethel.the.log>,
> >  Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> It looks a lot like it at the system level:  the filesystem, the
> >> shell, the utility programs, etc.
> >> 
> >> The Gnome GUI might be very different looking than the GUI you have on
> >> Raspbian (or you may not have a GUI on Raspbian).
> >
> > I replaced Gnome with LXDE, and it has a simpler desktop.  It is 
> > probably as close as I will get to Raspbian on a Mac.
> 
> Why would you bother attempting to duplicate Raspbian on Mac anyway?

So he can learn how to use Raspbian in a less constrained environment.

I'm not saying this is a good way of doing that - I don't know enough
about Raspbian to know.

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#55170

On 2014-01-21, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> writes:
>
>> On 2014-01-21, Fred McKenzie <fmmck@aol.com> wrote:
>> > In article <ll61pew4c2.fsf@ethel.the.log>,
>> >  Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> It looks a lot like it at the system level:  the filesystem, the
>> >> shell, the utility programs, etc.
>> >> 
>> >> The Gnome GUI might be very different looking than the GUI you have on
>> >> Raspbian (or you may not have a GUI on Raspbian).
>> >
>> > I replaced Gnome with LXDE, and it has a simpler desktop.  It is 
>> > probably as close as I will get to Raspbian on a Mac.
>> 
>> Why would you bother attempting to duplicate Raspbian on Mac anyway?
>
> So he can learn how to use Raspbian in a less constrained environment.
>
> I'm not saying this is a good way of doing that - I don't know enough
> about Raspbian to know.

I guess I find myself wondering what constraints we're talking about. I
assume one can ssh/telnet into a device running Raspbian, which should
give you direct access to all of the goodies needed to learn. Trying to
make some other Linux distribution mimic Raspbian will present
challenges of its own and is bound to complicate the learning process at
least somewhat for someone unfamiliar with *nix.

To each, his own, though!

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#55171

Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> writes:

> On 2014-01-21, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> writes:
> >
> >> On 2014-01-21, Fred McKenzie <fmmck@aol.com> wrote:
> >> > In article <ll61pew4c2.fsf@ethel.the.log>,
> >> >  Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> It looks a lot like it at the system level:  the filesystem, the
> >> >> shell, the utility programs, etc.
> >> >> 
> >> >> The Gnome GUI might be very different looking than the GUI you have on
> >> >> Raspbian (or you may not have a GUI on Raspbian).
> >> >
> >> > I replaced Gnome with LXDE, and it has a simpler desktop.  It is 
> >> > probably as close as I will get to Raspbian on a Mac.
> >> 
> >> Why would you bother attempting to duplicate Raspbian on Mac anyway?
> >
> > So he can learn how to use Raspbian in a less constrained environment.
> >
> > I'm not saying this is a good way of doing that - I don't know enough
> > about Raspbian to know.
> 
> I guess I find myself wondering what constraints we're talking about. I
> assume one can ssh/telnet into a device running Raspbian,

Yes.

> which should
> give you direct access to all of the goodies needed to learn. 

Well, just for starters, you may not have room to install your
favorite web browser (depending on what that is) so as you program and
run into questions, you might be frustrated by the process of getting
them answered.

Plus the machine is slow, so it takes longer to find out things don't
work.  

And, if like me you are an emacs guy, you might find the mouse
capabilities of the version of emacs that Raspbian runs are
frustrating.  

Then there is the question of things like software develepment tools.
As you are programming, it could be nice to be doing it on a full
computer with lots of tools, only importing the finished product to
Raspbian.
 
Etc.  There are really a lot of reasons why one might want to
experience a similar operating system running on a proper computer
before plunging yourself into an environment with haveily limited
speed, memory and storage space.

> Trying to
> make some other Linux distribution mimic Raspbian will present
> challenges of its own and is bound to complicate the learning process at
> least somewhat for someone unfamiliar with *nix.

Yes, probably.  It isn't what I'd do, I expect, but I come from a
place of already having some unix familiarity.

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#55173

On 2014-01-21, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> writes:
>
>> On 2014-01-21, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> writes:
>> >
>> >> Why would you bother attempting to duplicate Raspbian on Mac anyway?
>> >
>> > So he can learn how to use Raspbian in a less constrained environment.
>> >
>> > I'm not saying this is a good way of doing that - I don't know enough
>> > about Raspbian to know.
>> 
>> I guess I find myself wondering what constraints we're talking about. I
>> assume one can ssh/telnet into a device running Raspbian,
>
> Yes.
>
>> which should
>> give you direct access to all of the goodies needed to learn. 
>
> Well, just for starters, you may not have room to install your
> favorite web browser (depending on what that is) so as you program and
> run into questions, you might be frustrated by the process of getting
> them answered.

I'm not following. I've done embedded software development for years. A
typical developer would have a programming environment on their main
workstation that would target the device through a remote connection,
which would allow them to write and debug code on the device from their
workstation environment. Such a workstation environment would naturally
include things like web browsers, email clients, and so on. Why would
one want to do that stuff on the device itself - especially considering
its relative speed and constraints?

> Plus the machine is slow, so it takes longer to find out things don't
> work.  

Sure. One might get away with running code locally if there were an
emulator / environment that allows it, but inevitably, you need to run
the code directly on the device to know whether it actually works in
that environment.

> And, if like me you are an emacs guy, you might find the mouse
> capabilities of the version of emacs that Raspbian runs are
> frustrating.  

Ok.

> Then there is the question of things like software develepment tools.
> As you are programming, it could be nice to be doing it on a full
> computer with lots of tools, only importing the finished product to
> Raspbian.

As I explained above, that's the standard practice with most embedded
software development. Is this really not the case also with Raspbian? If
so, color me surprised.

> Etc.  There are really a lot of reasons why one might want to
> experience a similar operating system running on a proper computer
> before plunging yourself into an environment with haveily limited
> speed, memory and storage space.

I suppose. 

>> Trying to
>> make some other Linux distribution mimic Raspbian will present
>> challenges of its own and is bound to complicate the learning process at
>> least somewhat for someone unfamiliar with *nix.
>
> Yes, probably.  It isn't what I'd do, I expect, but I come from a
> place of already having some unix familiarity.

Same here.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#55176

Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> writes:

> On 2014-01-21, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com>
> wrote:

(snip)

> > Then there is the question of things like software develepment tools.
> > As you are programming, it could be nice to be doing it on a full
> > computer with lots of tools, only importing the finished product to
> > Raspbian.
> 
> As I explained above, that's the standard practice with most embedded
> software development.

Of course.

> Is this really not the case also with Raspbian? If
> so, color me surprised.

I have no idea - I haven't done development on Raspbian.  It is a
basically open source amateur stuff.  That doesn't mean these tools
don't exist, but it wouldn't shock me if the development tool suite
for Raspbian didn't measure up to that for Android, iOS, Windows CE,
or other mainstream commercially successful platforms.

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#55189

In article <bk86l3FnphcU1@mid.individual.net>,
 Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> On 2014-01-21, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> writes:
> >
> >> On 2014-01-21, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> writes:
> >> >
> >> >> Why would you bother attempting to duplicate Raspbian on Mac anyway?
> >> >
> >> > So he can learn how to use Raspbian in a less constrained environment.
> >> >
> >> > I'm not saying this is a good way of doing that - I don't know enough
> >> > about Raspbian to know.
> >> 
> >> I guess I find myself wondering what constraints we're talking about. I
> >> assume one can ssh/telnet into a device running Raspbian,
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> >> which should
> >> give you direct access to all of the goodies needed to learn. 
> >
> > Well, just for starters, you may not have room to install your
> > favorite web browser (depending on what that is) so as you program and
> > run into questions, you might be frustrated by the process of getting
> > them answered.
> 
> I'm not following. I've done embedded software development for years. A
> typical developer would have a programming environment on their main
> workstation that would target the device through a remote connection,
> which would allow them to write and debug code on the device from their
> workstation environment. Such a workstation environment would naturally
> include things like web browsers, email clients, and so on. Why would
> one want to do that stuff on the device itself - especially considering
> its relative speed and constraints?
> 
> > Plus the machine is slow, so it takes longer to find out things don't
> > work.  
> 
> Sure. One might get away with running code locally if there were an
> emulator / environment that allows it, but inevitably, you need to run
> the code directly on the device to know whether it actually works in
> that environment.
> 
> > And, if like me you are an emacs guy, you might find the mouse
> > capabilities of the version of emacs that Raspbian runs are
> > frustrating.  
> 
> Ok.
> 
> > Then there is the question of things like software develepment tools.
> > As you are programming, it could be nice to be doing it on a full
> > computer with lots of tools, only importing the finished product to
> > Raspbian.
> 
> As I explained above, that's the standard practice with most embedded
> software development. Is this really not the case also with Raspbian? If
> so, color me surprised.
> 
> > Etc.  There are really a lot of reasons why one might want to
> > experience a similar operating system running on a proper computer
> > before plunging yourself into an environment with haveily limited
> > speed, memory and storage space.
> 
> I suppose. 
> 
> >> Trying to
> >> make some other Linux distribution mimic Raspbian will present
> >> challenges of its own and is bound to complicate the learning process at
> >> least somewhat for someone unfamiliar with *nix.
> >
> > Yes, probably.  It isn't what I'd do, I expect, but I come from a
> > place of already having some unix familiarity.
> 
> Same here.

I had a similar discussion with a sysadmin client. He bought a Rasberry 
Pi solely to run DNS and LDAP for his home network.  They are low 
overhead services and it should be fine for that. I originally mixed the 
function of an Arduino board with a Rasberry Pi and finally got them 
sorted out. You mention embedded systems and I picture an Arduino while 
a Rasberry Pi is a full-fledged system capable of running Linux and a 
bunch of stuff, albeit slowly.

-- 
DeeDee, don't press that button!  DeeDee!  NO!  Dee...
[I filter all Goggle Groups posts, so any reply may be automatically ignored]

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#55192

On 2014-01-22, Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> wrote:
> In article <bk86l3FnphcU1@mid.individual.net>,
>  Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2014-01-21, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> writes:
>> >
>> >> On 2014-01-21, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> writes:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Why would you bother attempting to duplicate Raspbian on Mac anyway?
>> >> >
>> >> > So he can learn how to use Raspbian in a less constrained environment.
>> >> >
>> >> > I'm not saying this is a good way of doing that - I don't know enough
>> >> > about Raspbian to know.
>> >> 
>> >> I guess I find myself wondering what constraints we're talking about. I
>> >> assume one can ssh/telnet into a device running Raspbian,
>> >
>> > Yes.
>> >
>> >> which should
>> >> give you direct access to all of the goodies needed to learn. 
>> >
>> > Well, just for starters, you may not have room to install your
>> > favorite web browser (depending on what that is) so as you program and
>> > run into questions, you might be frustrated by the process of getting
>> > them answered.
>> 
>> I'm not following. I've done embedded software development for years. A
>> typical developer would have a programming environment on their main
>> workstation that would target the device through a remote connection,
>> which would allow them to write and debug code on the device from their
>> workstation environment. Such a workstation environment would naturally
>> include things like web browsers, email clients, and so on. Why would
>> one want to do that stuff on the device itself - especially considering
>> its relative speed and constraints?
>> 
>> > Plus the machine is slow, so it takes longer to find out things don't
>> > work.  
>> 
>> Sure. One might get away with running code locally if there were an
>> emulator / environment that allows it, but inevitably, you need to run
>> the code directly on the device to know whether it actually works in
>> that environment.
>> 
>> > And, if like me you are an emacs guy, you might find the mouse
>> > capabilities of the version of emacs that Raspbian runs are
>> > frustrating.  
>> 
>> Ok.
>> 
>> > Then there is the question of things like software develepment tools.
>> > As you are programming, it could be nice to be doing it on a full
>> > computer with lots of tools, only importing the finished product to
>> > Raspbian.
>> 
>> As I explained above, that's the standard practice with most embedded
>> software development. Is this really not the case also with Raspbian? If
>> so, color me surprised.
>> 
>> > Etc.  There are really a lot of reasons why one might want to
>> > experience a similar operating system running on a proper computer
>> > before plunging yourself into an environment with haveily limited
>> > speed, memory and storage space.
>> 
>> I suppose. 
>> 
>> >> Trying to
>> >> make some other Linux distribution mimic Raspbian will present
>> >> challenges of its own and is bound to complicate the learning process at
>> >> least somewhat for someone unfamiliar with *nix.
>> >
>> > Yes, probably.  It isn't what I'd do, I expect, but I come from a
>> > place of already having some unix familiarity.
>> 
>> Same here.
>
> I had a similar discussion with a sysadmin client. He bought a Rasberry 
> Pi solely to run DNS and LDAP for his home network.  They are low 
> overhead services and it should be fine for that. I originally mixed the 
> function of an Arduino board with a Rasberry Pi and finally got them 
> sorted out. You mention embedded systems and I picture an Arduino while 
> a Rasberry Pi is a full-fledged system capable of running Linux and a 
> bunch of stuff, albeit slowly.

Point taken. My point was the way you develop software for it will likely
be quite similar in most cases.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#55030

On 2014-01-20, Barry OGrady <atheist@hotmail.com.au> wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Jan 2014 18:31:14 -0500, Fred McKenzie <fmmck@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Although slightly off-topic, csms may be the best forum for this LINUX 
>>problem.
>>
>>My new toy is a Raspberry Pi.  It runs Raspbian, a variation of Debian 
>>LINUX.  In order to learn more about LINUX, I am attempting to install 
>>Debian LINUX on a spare internal HD in a Mac Pro.
>>
>>I have downloaded ISO disk images of Debian in four forms:  32 bit net 
>>install, 64 bit Gnome live desktop, 64 bit LXDE live desktop and a 
>>"Mini" version suggested at one website.
>>
>>So far, all attempts to install have failed.  Using the rEFIt program, 
>>the newly installed LINUX HD appears, tries to boot but fails (no 
>>bootable device).
>>
>>Except for the "Mini" CD which hangs up half way through the boot-up 
>>process, the CDs and DVDs all boot on the Mac.  It seems to me that this 
>>proves that Debian will work if I can only find the secret!
>>
>>Can anyone tell me how to install a working Debian LINUX on my Mac Pro?  
>>(I did manage to install a bootable version of "Puppy LINUX".)
>
> If you have OSX installed you have Darwin Linux installed.

Indeed. I used to keep my own hand-built PCs around for running various
Linux distributions - until Mac OS X was released. After that, there
wasn't much value in keeping those PCs around anymore since OS X lets me
do most of the essential *nix things I need to do.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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