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What do they teach in school today?

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  What do they teach in school today? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-08-20 18:17 -0400
    Re: What do they teach in school today? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-08-20 23:56 +0100
      Re: What do they teach in school today? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-08-20 16:10 -0700
    Re: What do they teach in school today? Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2015-08-20 23:55 +0000
      Re: What do they teach in school today? Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2015-08-24 04:28 -0700
    Re: What do they teach in school today? Leo <chris.w.l.macleod@sympatico.ca> - 2015-08-20 21:21 -0400
    Re: What do they teach in school today? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2015-08-23 09:33 -0500
      Re: What do they teach in school today? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-08-23 09:47 -0700
        Re: What do they teach in school today? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2015-08-23 14:45 -0500
      Re: What do they teach in school today? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-08-23 23:27 -0400
        Re: What do they teach in school today? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2015-08-24 09:48 -0500
          Re: What do they teach in school today? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-08-25 00:49 -0400
            Re: What do they teach in school today? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2015-08-25 09:58 -0500
              Re: What do they teach in school today? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-08-28 19:30 -0400
              Re: What do they teach in school today? "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-09-05 20:49 +0100
                Re: What do they teach in school today? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-11 00:26 -0500
                  Re: What do they teach in school today? "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-09-12 10:58 +0100
                    Re: What do they teach in school today? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-12 08:06 -0500
                      Re: What do they teach in school today? "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-09-12 15:20 +0100
                        Re: What do they teach in school today? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-13 00:53 -0500
                          Re: What do they teach in school today? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-09-13 12:19 -0400
                            Re: What do they teach in school today? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-14 00:32 -0500
                              Re: What do they teach in school today? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-09-14 07:17 -0400
                                Re: What do they teach in school today? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-14 09:29 -0500
                    Re: What do they teach in school today? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-09-12 13:11 -0400
            Re: What do they teach in school today? "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-09-05 20:55 +0100
              Re: What do they teach in school today? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 20:20 -0400
                Re: What do they teach in school today? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-11 00:44 -0500
                  Re: What do they teach in school today? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-11 08:29 -0500
                    Re: What do they teach in school today? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-09-11 17:05 +0100
                      Re: What do they teach in school today? Mark Carroll <mtbc@bcs.org> - 2015-09-11 17:07 +0100
                        Re: What do they teach in school today? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-09-11 17:27 +0100
                          Re: What do they teach in school today? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-09-12 12:51 -0400
                      Re: What do they teach in school today? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-09-11 14:55 -0500
                        Re: What do they teach in school today? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-09-12 12:54 -0400
                      Re: What do they teach in school today? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-11 17:52 -0500
                        Re: What do they teach in school today? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-09-12 00:23 +0100
                          Re: What do they teach in school today? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-11 22:45 -0500
                          Re: What do they teach in school today? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-09-12 12:56 -0400
                        Re: What do they teach in school today? "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-09-12 11:04 +0100
                          Re: What do they teach in school today? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-12 08:10 -0500
                            Re: What do they teach in school today? "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-09-12 15:24 +0100
                              Re: What do they teach in school today? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-09-12 15:36 +0100
                              Re: What do they teach in school today? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-12 23:24 -0500
                            Re: What do they teach in school today? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-16 13:08 -0500
                              Re: What do they teach in school today? Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2015-09-16 18:54 +0000
                                Re: What do they teach in school today? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-17 00:15 -0500
                                  Re: What do they teach in school today? Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2015-09-25 21:08 -0700
                    Re: What do they teach in school today? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-09-12 12:49 -0400
                      Re: What do they teach in school today? BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-12 19:56 -0500
    Re: What do they teach in school today? "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-09-05 21:21 +0100
      Re: What do they teach in school today? Mark Carroll <mtbc@bcs.org> - 2015-09-05 22:54 +0100
        Re: What do they teach in school today? "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-09-05 23:17 +0100
          Re: What do they teach in school today? Mark Carroll <mtbc@bcs.org> - 2015-09-06 09:59 +0100
            Re: What do they teach in school today? "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-09-06 11:11 +0100
      Re: What do they teach in school today? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 19:59 -0400
      Re: What do they teach in school today? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2015-09-11 14:59 -0500

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#5640 — What do they teach in school today?

I was talking to a recent computer science graduate today.  He had never 
seen C, never seen Fortran, had no notion of a shell script or batch 
file, had never heard of ActiveX or .net or gcc.

So what does somebody spend four years doing in a modern university 
computer science program?

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#5641

"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:

> I was talking to a recent computer science graduate today.  He had never 
> seen C, never seen Fortran, had no notion of a shell script or batch 
> file, had never heard of ActiveX or .net or gcc.
>
> So what does somebody spend four years doing in a modern university 
> computer science program?

Why didn't you ask him?  It looks like you missed the perfect
opportunist to find out -- then you could tell me!  (I can't help --
I've been out of the game for years.)  But most Universities have course
details online so I can't think it would bee too hard to find out for a
few selected institutions.

-- 
Ben.

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#5642

me too dont know.. i was studying physics and im a slef educated low level coder, but i was working with a couple of todays 35-year olds 9from poland), and they all were teached mostly java heavilly (and were noty so bad at that).. but this was 10-15 tears ago; what they teach 
now at schools i dont know

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#5643

On 2015-08-20, J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> I was talking to a recent computer science graduate today.  He had never 
> seen C, never seen Fortran, had no notion of a shell script or batch 
> file, had never heard of ActiveX or .net or gcc.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that a fresh graduate
should have interacted with Fortran. LOL.

No self-respecting CS department on the planet has foisted Fortran onto
undergraduates in some 30 years.

I last touched Fortran in some miserable engineering course in 1989
which required it; the CS department had nothing to do with the stuff
already.

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#5653

On Friday, August 21, 2015 at 12:55:24 AM UTC+1, Kaz Kylheku wrote:

> some miserable engineering course

Indeed a very poor state of affairs...

Computer scientists as well as some software engineers should get their heads out of their asses and realise that the two disciplines have opposite concerns and driving factors: the very definition of "complexity" is opposite.  In particular, computer scientists as well as some software engineers should realise CS is mathematics up to language design, while SE is about actual software production.

Computer scientists I would think have no excuses, Donald Knuth had clearly warned them with his most famous disclaimer.  The idea that CS is all there is to know about "programming" reflects an indeed general and very poor state of affairs, not only about software.  In comparison, SE rather reminds that there is more to programming than just programming.  And so on.

As for academia, and the books, conferences, certifications, consulting, etc., and the politics... tell their marketing?  A main problem with software engineering, in my opinion, is that it takes decades of study and application to master, while it takes months then weeks to hijack an entire market.

Julio

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#5644

For the most part at my school, Java is used when studying high-level
concepts and C with Linux for low-level ones. The first years are
usually introduced to programming with Java, but Python has been
recently introduced as an alternative. Programming paradigm classes use
Lisp and Prolog. There's a mandatory web development class that uses
Javascript as well. My particular program makes heavy use of C++ (Visual
C++ specifically, thanks to Microsoft sponsorship). Shells,
libraries/frameworks, IDEs, debugging tools and so forth we are
primarily expected to learn on our own.

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#5647

On 8/20/2015 5:17 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> I was talking to a recent computer science graduate today.  He had never
> seen C, never seen Fortran, had no notion of a shell script or batch
> file, had never heard of ActiveX or .net or gcc.
>
> So what does somebody spend four years doing in a modern university
> computer science program?
>


when I went for a CS major, it was mostly things like C# and SQL.
one class did C++, but the teacher seemed to not really know so well how 
the language worked (he never used delete, seemed to think setting 
object pointers to NULL deleted the referenced objects, ...).

the rest was mostly "general ed" classes, like English/Literature and 
Calculus and so on...


never did get a degree, running into the problem that I actually suck 
too much at math to really make it through a CS program (issue I suspect 
is I am too much of a concrete thinker, and get lost in math that goes 
beyond what I can easily visualize). we were also in the process of a 
move (parents had already moved, and I would move to the new location as 
soon as classes ended), so there was no chance to retake the class, and 
most of the credits wouldn't transfer to another college anyways.

but, yeah, does render it pointless having been one class away from a 
degree, more years of ones' life rendered completely pointless, since no 
degree = no job.

and parents wanting to move every few years and send me to colleges for 
not long enough to actually get a degree in anything didn't help matters.

and, as far as everyone is concerned, no degree, no job, no money, no 
house, ... = useless.


now taking a simpler tech-school program in industrial maintenance.
there is at least a lower change of this getting screwed up.

one gets to realize that industrial people mostly use PLCs and similar, 
which are mostly controlled with pointy-clicky graphical interfaces 
(Ladder Logic and LabVIEW). have got to mess around with a lot of stuff 
(440VAC and hydraulics and pneumatics and similar) and drive around a 
forklift, so it is something...


apparently in this area, messing around with C and microcontrollers is 
essentially black-magic in this sense... (one can code up stuff on a 
microcontroller, and use some transistors and similar, and spin up an 
improvised 3 phase motor, without needing to spend $500 on a VFD or 
similar...).

nevermind if spinning up a 208V or 440V motor would require buying some 
comparably expensive IGBT or SiC MOSFET (silicon carbide) transistors.


and, will I ever get a job or have a life or actually be worth anything 
as a person? who knows...

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#5648

W dniu niedziela, 23 sierpnia 2015 16:38:42 UTC+2 użytkownik BGB napisał:
> On 8/20/2015 5:17 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> > I was talking to a recent computer science graduate today.  He had never
> > seen C, never seen Fortran, had no notion of a shell script or batch
> > file, had never heard of ActiveX or .net or gcc.
> >
> > So what does somebody spend four years doing in a modern university
> > computer science program?
> >
> 
> 
> when I went for a CS major, it was mostly things like C# and SQL.
> one class did C++, but the teacher seemed to not really know so well how 
> the language worked (he never used delete, seemed to think setting 
> object pointers to NULL deleted the referenced objects, ...).
> 
> the rest was mostly "general ed" classes, like English/Literature and 
> Calculus and so on...
> 
> 
> never did get a degree, running into the problem that I actually suck 
> too much at math to really make it through a CS program (issue I suspect 
> is I am too much of a concrete thinker, and get lost in math that goes 
> beyond what I can easily visualize). we were also in the process of a 
> move (parents had already moved, and I would move to the new location as 
> soon as classes ended), so there was no chance to retake the class, and 
> most of the credits wouldn't transfer to another college anyways.
> 
> but, yeah, does render it pointless having been one class away from a 
> degree, more years of ones' life rendered completely pointless, since no 
> degree = no job.
> 
> and parents wanting to move every few years and send me to colleges for 
> not long enough to actually get a degree in anything didn't help matters.
> 
> and, as far as everyone is concerned, no degree, no job, no money, no 
> house, ... = useless.
> 
> 
> now taking a simpler tech-school program in industrial maintenance.
> there is at least a lower change of this getting screwed up.
> 
> one gets to realize that industrial people mostly use PLCs and similar, 
> which are mostly controlled with pointy-clicky graphical interfaces 
> (Ladder Logic and LabVIEW). have got to mess around with a lot of stuff 
> (440VAC and hydraulics and pneumatics and similar) and drive around a 
> forklift, so it is something...
> 
> 
> apparently in this area, messing around with C and microcontrollers is 
> essentially black-magic in this sense... (one can code up stuff on a 
> microcontroller, and use some transistors and similar, and spin up an 
> improvised 3 phase motor, without needing to spend $500 on a VFD or 
> similar...).
> 
> nevermind if spinning up a 208V or 440V motor would require buying some 
> comparably expensive IGBT or SiC MOSFET (silicon carbide) transistors.
> 
> 
> and, will I ever get a job or have a life or actually be worth anything 
> as a person? who knows...

youre actually pretty good afaik, 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#5649

On 8/23/2015 11:47 AM, fir wrote:
> W dniu niedziela, 23 sierpnia 2015 16:38:42 UTC+2 użytkownik BGB napisał:
>> On 8/20/2015 5:17 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> I was talking to a recent computer science graduate today.  He had never
>>> seen C, never seen Fortran, had no notion of a shell script or batch
>>> file, had never heard of ActiveX or .net or gcc.
>>>
>>> So what does somebody spend four years doing in a modern university
>>> computer science program?
>>>
>>
>>
>> when I went for a CS major, it was mostly things like C# and SQL.
>> one class did C++, but the teacher seemed to not really know so well how
>> the language worked (he never used delete, seemed to think setting
>> object pointers to NULL deleted the referenced objects, ...).
>>
>> the rest was mostly "general ed" classes, like English/Literature and
>> Calculus and so on...
>>
>>
>> never did get a degree, running into the problem that I actually suck
>> too much at math to really make it through a CS program (issue I suspect
>> is I am too much of a concrete thinker, and get lost in math that goes
>> beyond what I can easily visualize). we were also in the process of a
>> move (parents had already moved, and I would move to the new location as
>> soon as classes ended), so there was no chance to retake the class, and
>> most of the credits wouldn't transfer to another college anyways.
>>
>> but, yeah, does render it pointless having been one class away from a
>> degree, more years of ones' life rendered completely pointless, since no
>> degree = no job.
>>
>> and parents wanting to move every few years and send me to colleges for
>> not long enough to actually get a degree in anything didn't help matters.
>>
>> and, as far as everyone is concerned, no degree, no job, no money, no
>> house, ... = useless.
>>
>>
>> now taking a simpler tech-school program in industrial maintenance.
>> there is at least a lower change of this getting screwed up.
>>
>> one gets to realize that industrial people mostly use PLCs and similar,
>> which are mostly controlled with pointy-clicky graphical interfaces
>> (Ladder Logic and LabVIEW). have got to mess around with a lot of stuff
>> (440VAC and hydraulics and pneumatics and similar) and drive around a
>> forklift, so it is something...
>>
>>
>> apparently in this area, messing around with C and microcontrollers is
>> essentially black-magic in this sense... (one can code up stuff on a
>> microcontroller, and use some transistors and similar, and spin up an
>> improvised 3 phase motor, without needing to spend $500 on a VFD or
>> similar...).
>>
>> nevermind if spinning up a 208V or 440V motor would require buying some
>> comparably expensive IGBT or SiC MOSFET (silicon carbide) transistors.
>>
>>
>> and, will I ever get a job or have a life or actually be worth anything
>> as a person? who knows...
>
> youre actually pretty good afaik,
>

did just go and put up a video showing me driving an improvised 3-phase 
motor (made from a converted split-phase HVAC blower motor), running off 
16v using underpowered transistors and an MSP430G2232 (a microcontroller 
with an epic 2kB of ROM and 256 bytes of RAM, of which I am currently 
using 60% of the ROM space and a little under 1/2 the RAM).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUmwZb7KAvc


probably not all that useful though, but I suspect this motor could 
probably be a fair bit more impressive with better driver electronics 
(higher voltage and current and a higher drive frequency, was driving it 
at around 20-24Hz or so...).

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#5651

In article <mrclte$bud$1@news.albasani.net>, cr88192@hotmail.com says...
> 
> On 8/20/2015 5:17 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> > I was talking to a recent computer science graduate today.  He had never
> > seen C, never seen Fortran, had no notion of a shell script or batch
> > file, had never heard of ActiveX or .net or gcc.
> >
> > So what does somebody spend four years doing in a modern university
> > computer science program?
> >
> 
> 
> when I went for a CS major, it was mostly things like C# and SQL.
> one class did C++, but the teacher seemed to not really know so well how 
> the language worked (he never used delete, seemed to think setting 
> object pointers to NULL deleted the referenced objects, ...).
> 
> the rest was mostly "general ed" classes, like English/Literature and 
> Calculus and so on...
> 
> 
> never did get a degree, running into the problem that I actually suck 
> too much at math to really make it through a CS program (issue I suspect 
> is I am too much of a concrete thinker, and get lost in math that goes 
> beyond what I can easily visualize). we were also in the process of a 
> move (parents had already moved, and I would move to the new location as 
> soon as classes ended), so there was no chance to retake the class, and 
> most of the credits wouldn't transfer to another college anyways.
> 
> but, yeah, does render it pointless having been one class away from a 
> degree, more years of ones' life rendered completely pointless, since no 
> degree = no job.
> 
> and parents wanting to move every few years and send me to colleges for 
> not long enough to actually get a degree in anything didn't help matters.
> 
> and, as far as everyone is concerned, no degree, no job, no money, no 
> house, ... = useless.
> 
> 
> now taking a simpler tech-school program in industrial maintenance.
> there is at least a lower change of this getting screwed up.
> 
> one gets to realize that industrial people mostly use PLCs and similar, 
> which are mostly controlled with pointy-clicky graphical interfaces 
> (Ladder Logic and LabVIEW). have got to mess around with a lot of stuff 
> (440VAC and hydraulics and pneumatics and similar) and drive around a 
> forklift, so it is something...
> 
> 
> apparently in this area, messing around with C and microcontrollers is 
> essentially black-magic in this sense... (one can code up stuff on a 
> microcontroller, and use some transistors and similar, and spin up an 
> improvised 3 phase motor, without needing to spend $500 on a VFD or 
> similar...).
> 
> nevermind if spinning up a 208V or 440V motor would require buying some 
> comparably expensive IGBT or SiC MOSFET (silicon carbide) transistors.
> 
> 
> and, will I ever get a job or have a life or actually be worth anything 
> as a person? who knows...

A year ago I thought my life was over.  61, no recent programming 
experience, outdated degree and not CS.  Got hired for over 60K.  We had 
another position for which we got something like 5 applicants.  And 
another that's open now.

Get some experience, somehow, and I think you'll be surprised at the 
doors that open, degree or no degree.  The fact is that people who can 
actually produce code are scarce these days.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#5654

On 8/23/2015 10:27 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <mrclte$bud$1@news.albasani.net>, cr88192@hotmail.com says...
>>
>> On 8/20/2015 5:17 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> I was talking to a recent computer science graduate today.  He had never
>>> seen C, never seen Fortran, had no notion of a shell script or batch
>>> file, had never heard of ActiveX or .net or gcc.
>>>
>>> So what does somebody spend four years doing in a modern university
>>> computer science program?
>>>
>>
>>
>> when I went for a CS major, it was mostly things like C# and SQL.
>> one class did C++, but the teacher seemed to not really know so well how
>> the language worked (he never used delete, seemed to think setting
>> object pointers to NULL deleted the referenced objects, ...).
>>
>> the rest was mostly "general ed" classes, like English/Literature and
>> Calculus and so on...
>>
>>
>> never did get a degree, running into the problem that I actually suck
>> too much at math to really make it through a CS program (issue I suspect
>> is I am too much of a concrete thinker, and get lost in math that goes
>> beyond what I can easily visualize). we were also in the process of a
>> move (parents had already moved, and I would move to the new location as
>> soon as classes ended), so there was no chance to retake the class, and
>> most of the credits wouldn't transfer to another college anyways.
>>
>> but, yeah, does render it pointless having been one class away from a
>> degree, more years of ones' life rendered completely pointless, since no
>> degree = no job.
>>
>> and parents wanting to move every few years and send me to colleges for
>> not long enough to actually get a degree in anything didn't help matters.
>>
>> and, as far as everyone is concerned, no degree, no job, no money, no
>> house, ... = useless.
>>
>>
>> now taking a simpler tech-school program in industrial maintenance.
>> there is at least a lower change of this getting screwed up.
>>
>> one gets to realize that industrial people mostly use PLCs and similar,
>> which are mostly controlled with pointy-clicky graphical interfaces
>> (Ladder Logic and LabVIEW). have got to mess around with a lot of stuff
>> (440VAC and hydraulics and pneumatics and similar) and drive around a
>> forklift, so it is something...
>>
>>
>> apparently in this area, messing around with C and microcontrollers is
>> essentially black-magic in this sense... (one can code up stuff on a
>> microcontroller, and use some transistors and similar, and spin up an
>> improvised 3 phase motor, without needing to spend $500 on a VFD or
>> similar...).
>>
>> nevermind if spinning up a 208V or 440V motor would require buying some
>> comparably expensive IGBT or SiC MOSFET (silicon carbide) transistors.
>>
>>
>> and, will I ever get a job or have a life or actually be worth anything
>> as a person? who knows...
>
> A year ago I thought my life was over.  61, no recent programming
> experience, outdated degree and not CS.  Got hired for over 60K.  We had
> another position for which we got something like 5 applicants.  And
> another that's open now.
>
> Get some experience, somehow, and I think you'll be surprised at the
> doors that open, degree or no degree.  The fact is that people who can
> actually produce code are scarce these days.
>

yeah, could be.

where I am living, there are not a lot of programming jobs, and most of 
these are web/business/financial stuff, which I personally don't want to 
go anywhere near. likewise, don't want to relocate right now either.

I previously had more interest in games and compiler technology, and 
also now have an interest in embedded programming and robotics. in my 
case, this involves a bit of programming on microcontrollers mixed with 
electronics.

did a fair bit with compiler and VM programming, as well as things like 
real-time video-encoding, and some experimentation with rudimentary 
computer-vision stuff, ...


currently back in classes for mechatronics, or what is essentially 
industrial maintenance but with a fancier name (sort of like "Software 
Engineer" vs "Programmger", there is "Mechatronic Technician" vs 
"Maintenance guy").

I have noted that there is a difference between what they do in class, 
vs what I do myself. in class, they use PLCs and VFDs, which are 
basically modules that one hooks up some wires to (about like hooking up 
a car stereo or similar, just controlling 3-phase motors).

a lot of what I am doing personally is more writing code and flashing it 
onto chips using a JTAG programmer, and using a bunch of transistors and 
similar to make it work.


also I don't have 440V 3-phase at my house, so generally make my own 
3-phase but generally working at much lower voltages (don't have the 
parts I would need to invert 440, would need to deal with essentially a 
1280 volt DC rail to do so...). though, if really needed, could buy a 
large VFD and use it as a 3-phase inverter.


but, on the positive side, what I am doing is a lot cheaper...

likewise, a person can't fry themselves with lower voltages.
say, touch 48 VAC wires, and they are mostly just mildly stingy, and one 
can't even really feel 24 VAC.

also, most of the components I have effectively limit me to about 48 VAC 
for single and dual phase, and 15-24 VAC for 3-phase. mostly it has to 
do with how commons are handled (1Ph and 2Ph can have a floating common, 
whereas 3Ph needs a stationary common, meaning needing about 2.8x as 
much voltage on the DC rail for inverting 3Ph)

granted, a person can use step-up transformers, but I don't really have 
any good ones on hand...

the crappy driver board I was using in the videos limits me to around 6 
or 7 volts of 3Ph though...

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#5656

In article <mrfb5m$eo3$1@news.albasani.net>, cr88192@hotmail.com says...
> 
> On 8/23/2015 10:27 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> > In article <mrclte$bud$1@news.albasani.net>, cr88192@hotmail.com says...
> >>
> >> On 8/20/2015 5:17 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> >>> I was talking to a recent computer science graduate today.  He had never
> >>> seen C, never seen Fortran, had no notion of a shell script or batch
> >>> file, had never heard of ActiveX or .net or gcc.
> >>>
> >>> So what does somebody spend four years doing in a modern university
> >>> computer science program?
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> when I went for a CS major, it was mostly things like C# and SQL.
> >> one class did C++, but the teacher seemed to not really know so well how
> >> the language worked (he never used delete, seemed to think setting
> >> object pointers to NULL deleted the referenced objects, ...).
> >>
> >> the rest was mostly "general ed" classes, like English/Literature and
> >> Calculus and so on...
> >>
> >>
> >> never did get a degree, running into the problem that I actually suck
> >> too much at math to really make it through a CS program (issue I suspect
> >> is I am too much of a concrete thinker, and get lost in math that goes
> >> beyond what I can easily visualize). we were also in the process of a
> >> move (parents had already moved, and I would move to the new location as
> >> soon as classes ended), so there was no chance to retake the class, and
> >> most of the credits wouldn't transfer to another college anyways.
> >>
> >> but, yeah, does render it pointless having been one class away from a
> >> degree, more years of ones' life rendered completely pointless, since no
> >> degree = no job.
> >>
> >> and parents wanting to move every few years and send me to colleges for
> >> not long enough to actually get a degree in anything didn't help matters.
> >>
> >> and, as far as everyone is concerned, no degree, no job, no money, no
> >> house, ... = useless.
> >>
> >>
> >> now taking a simpler tech-school program in industrial maintenance.
> >> there is at least a lower change of this getting screwed up.
> >>
> >> one gets to realize that industrial people mostly use PLCs and similar,
> >> which are mostly controlled with pointy-clicky graphical interfaces
> >> (Ladder Logic and LabVIEW). have got to mess around with a lot of stuff
> >> (440VAC and hydraulics and pneumatics and similar) and drive around a
> >> forklift, so it is something...
> >>
> >>
> >> apparently in this area, messing around with C and microcontrollers is
> >> essentially black-magic in this sense... (one can code up stuff on a
> >> microcontroller, and use some transistors and similar, and spin up an
> >> improvised 3 phase motor, without needing to spend $500 on a VFD or
> >> similar...).
> >>
> >> nevermind if spinning up a 208V or 440V motor would require buying some
> >> comparably expensive IGBT or SiC MOSFET (silicon carbide) transistors.
> >>
> >>
> >> and, will I ever get a job or have a life or actually be worth anything
> >> as a person? who knows...
> >
> > A year ago I thought my life was over.  61, no recent programming
> > experience, outdated degree and not CS.  Got hired for over 60K.  We had
> > another position for which we got something like 5 applicants.  And
> > another that's open now.
> >
> > Get some experience, somehow, and I think you'll be surprised at the
> > doors that open, degree or no degree.  The fact is that people who can
> > actually produce code are scarce these days.
> >
> 
> yeah, could be.
> 
> where I am living, there are not a lot of programming jobs, and most of 
> these are web/business/financial stuff, which I personally don't want to 
> go anywhere near. likewise, don't want to relocate right now either.

A year ago I would have said the same thing.  Don't avoid the 
"business/financial stuff".  It may seem boring but it's experience 
regardless.
 
> I previously had more interest in games and compiler technology, and 
> also now have an interest in embedded programming and robotics. in my 
> case, this involves a bit of programming on microcontrollers mixed with 
> electronics.
> 
> did a fair bit with compiler and VM programming, as well as things like 
> real-time video-encoding, and some experimentation with rudimentary 
> computer-vision stuff, ...
> 
> 
> currently back in classes for mechatronics, or what is essentially 
> industrial maintenance but with a fancier name (sort of like "Software 
> Engineer" vs "Programmger", there is "Mechatronic Technician" vs 
> "Maintenance guy").
> 
> I have noted that there is a difference between what they do in class, 
> vs what I do myself. in class, they use PLCs and VFDs, which are 
> basically modules that one hooks up some wires to (about like hooking up 
> a car stereo or similar, just controlling 3-phase motors).
> 
> a lot of what I am doing personally is more writing code and flashing it 
> onto chips using a JTAG programmer, and using a bunch of transistors and 
> similar to make it work.
> 
> 
> also I don't have 440V 3-phase at my house, so generally make my own 
> 3-phase but generally working at much lower voltages (don't have the 
> parts I would need to invert 440, would need to deal with essentially a 
> 1280 volt DC rail to do so...). though, if really needed, could buy a 
> large VFD and use it as a 3-phase inverter.
> 
> 
> but, on the positive side, what I am doing is a lot cheaper...
> 
> likewise, a person can't fry themselves with lower voltages.
> say, touch 48 VAC wires, and they are mostly just mildly stingy, and one 
> can't even really feel 24 VAC.
> 
> also, most of the components I have effectively limit me to about 48 VAC 
> for single and dual phase, and 15-24 VAC for 3-phase. mostly it has to 
> do with how commons are handled (1Ph and 2Ph can have a floating common, 
> whereas 3Ph needs a stationary common, meaning needing about 2.8x as 
> much voltage on the DC rail for inverting 3Ph)
> 
> granted, a person can use step-up transformers, but I don't really have 
> any good ones on hand...
> 
> the crappy driver board I was using in the videos limits me to around 6 
> or 7 volts of 3Ph though...

Sounds like you might do better with EE than CS if you ever get a chance 
to go back to school.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#5658

On 8/24/2015 11:49 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <mrfb5m$eo3$1@news.albasani.net>, cr88192@hotmail.com says...
>>
>> On 8/23/2015 10:27 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> In article <mrclte$bud$1@news.albasani.net>, cr88192@hotmail.com says...
>>>>
>>>> On 8/20/2015 5:17 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>> I was talking to a recent computer science graduate today.  He had never
>>>>> seen C, never seen Fortran, had no notion of a shell script or batch
>>>>> file, had never heard of ActiveX or .net or gcc.
>>>>>
>>>>> So what does somebody spend four years doing in a modern university
>>>>> computer science program?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> when I went for a CS major, it was mostly things like C# and SQL.
>>>> one class did C++, but the teacher seemed to not really know so well how
>>>> the language worked (he never used delete, seemed to think setting
>>>> object pointers to NULL deleted the referenced objects, ...).
>>>>
>>>> the rest was mostly "general ed" classes, like English/Literature and
>>>> Calculus and so on...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> never did get a degree, running into the problem that I actually suck
>>>> too much at math to really make it through a CS program (issue I suspect
>>>> is I am too much of a concrete thinker, and get lost in math that goes
>>>> beyond what I can easily visualize). we were also in the process of a
>>>> move (parents had already moved, and I would move to the new location as
>>>> soon as classes ended), so there was no chance to retake the class, and
>>>> most of the credits wouldn't transfer to another college anyways.
>>>>
>>>> but, yeah, does render it pointless having been one class away from a
>>>> degree, more years of ones' life rendered completely pointless, since no
>>>> degree = no job.
>>>>
>>>> and parents wanting to move every few years and send me to colleges for
>>>> not long enough to actually get a degree in anything didn't help matters.
>>>>
>>>> and, as far as everyone is concerned, no degree, no job, no money, no
>>>> house, ... = useless.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> now taking a simpler tech-school program in industrial maintenance.
>>>> there is at least a lower change of this getting screwed up.
>>>>
>>>> one gets to realize that industrial people mostly use PLCs and similar,
>>>> which are mostly controlled with pointy-clicky graphical interfaces
>>>> (Ladder Logic and LabVIEW). have got to mess around with a lot of stuff
>>>> (440VAC and hydraulics and pneumatics and similar) and drive around a
>>>> forklift, so it is something...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> apparently in this area, messing around with C and microcontrollers is
>>>> essentially black-magic in this sense... (one can code up stuff on a
>>>> microcontroller, and use some transistors and similar, and spin up an
>>>> improvised 3 phase motor, without needing to spend $500 on a VFD or
>>>> similar...).
>>>>
>>>> nevermind if spinning up a 208V or 440V motor would require buying some
>>>> comparably expensive IGBT or SiC MOSFET (silicon carbide) transistors.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> and, will I ever get a job or have a life or actually be worth anything
>>>> as a person? who knows...
>>>
>>> A year ago I thought my life was over.  61, no recent programming
>>> experience, outdated degree and not CS.  Got hired for over 60K.  We had
>>> another position for which we got something like 5 applicants.  And
>>> another that's open now.
>>>
>>> Get some experience, somehow, and I think you'll be surprised at the
>>> doors that open, degree or no degree.  The fact is that people who can
>>> actually produce code are scarce these days.
>>>
>>
>> yeah, could be.
>>
>> where I am living, there are not a lot of programming jobs, and most of
>> these are web/business/financial stuff, which I personally don't want to
>> go anywhere near. likewise, don't want to relocate right now either.
>
> A year ago I would have said the same thing.  Don't avoid the
> "business/financial stuff".  It may seem boring but it's experience
> regardless.

in business computing though, if anything goes wrong (almost invariable 
with programming), someone needs to take the fall, often through legal 
action (lawsuits against former employees for lurking bugs, ...).

don't want to deal with this, as it doesn't take much to realize that 
pretty much any code has bugs hidden in it somewhere...


>>
>> but, on the positive side, what I am doing is a lot cheaper...
>>
>> likewise, a person can't fry themselves with lower voltages.
>> say, touch 48 VAC wires, and they are mostly just mildly stingy, and one
>> can't even really feel 24 VAC.
>>
>> also, most of the components I have effectively limit me to about 48 VAC
>> for single and dual phase, and 15-24 VAC for 3-phase. mostly it has to
>> do with how commons are handled (1Ph and 2Ph can have a floating common,
>> whereas 3Ph needs a stationary common, meaning needing about 2.8x as
>> much voltage on the DC rail for inverting 3Ph)
>>
>> granted, a person can use step-up transformers, but I don't really have
>> any good ones on hand...
>>
>> the crappy driver board I was using in the videos limits me to around 6
>> or 7 volts of 3Ph though...
>
> Sounds like you might do better with EE than CS if you ever get a chance
> to go back to school.
>

what I am doing right now is probably closer to EE than CS, but I am 
using both skillsets I suspect (both programming and electronics, as 
well as a small amount of overlap with mechanical engineering and 
machining).


granted, it doesn't take much code to run a 3-phase inverter, for example:
   http://pastebin.com/ftg01XWG

is basically what I can fit on a fairly small MSP430 (MSP430G2232, ex: 
2kB ROM, 256B RAM).


some of my fancier stuff (on higher end controllers) has involved use of 
specialized compilers and VMs, but... you aren't exactly going to be 
able to run much of a VM in a 2kB ROM...

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#5661

In article <mri049$gaf$1@news.albasani.net>, cr88192@hotmail.com says...
> 
> On 8/24/2015 11:49 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> > In article <mrfb5m$eo3$1@news.albasani.net>, cr88192@hotmail.com says...
> >>
> >> On 8/23/2015 10:27 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> >>> In article <mrclte$bud$1@news.albasani.net>, cr88192@hotmail.com says...
> >>>>
> >>>> On 8/20/2015 5:17 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> >>>>> I was talking to a recent computer science graduate today.  He had never
> >>>>> seen C, never seen Fortran, had no notion of a shell script or batch
> >>>>> file, had never heard of ActiveX or .net or gcc.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So what does somebody spend four years doing in a modern university
> >>>>> computer science program?
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> when I went for a CS major, it was mostly things like C# and SQL.
> >>>> one class did C++, but the teacher seemed to not really know so well how
> >>>> the language worked (he never used delete, seemed to think setting
> >>>> object pointers to NULL deleted the referenced objects, ...).
> >>>>
> >>>> the rest was mostly "general ed" classes, like English/Literature and
> >>>> Calculus and so on...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> never did get a degree, running into the problem that I actually suck
> >>>> too much at math to really make it through a CS program (issue I suspect
> >>>> is I am too much of a concrete thinker, and get lost in math that goes
> >>>> beyond what I can easily visualize). we were also in the process of a
> >>>> move (parents had already moved, and I would move to the new location as
> >>>> soon as classes ended), so there was no chance to retake the class, and
> >>>> most of the credits wouldn't transfer to another college anyways.
> >>>>
> >>>> but, yeah, does render it pointless having been one class away from a
> >>>> degree, more years of ones' life rendered completely pointless, since no
> >>>> degree = no job.
> >>>>
> >>>> and parents wanting to move every few years and send me to colleges for
> >>>> not long enough to actually get a degree in anything didn't help matters.
> >>>>
> >>>> and, as far as everyone is concerned, no degree, no job, no money, no
> >>>> house, ... = useless.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> now taking a simpler tech-school program in industrial maintenance.
> >>>> there is at least a lower change of this getting screwed up.
> >>>>
> >>>> one gets to realize that industrial people mostly use PLCs and similar,
> >>>> which are mostly controlled with pointy-clicky graphical interfaces
> >>>> (Ladder Logic and LabVIEW). have got to mess around with a lot of stuff
> >>>> (440VAC and hydraulics and pneumatics and similar) and drive around a
> >>>> forklift, so it is something...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> apparently in this area, messing around with C and microcontrollers is
> >>>> essentially black-magic in this sense... (one can code up stuff on a
> >>>> microcontroller, and use some transistors and similar, and spin up an
> >>>> improvised 3 phase motor, without needing to spend $500 on a VFD or
> >>>> similar...).
> >>>>
> >>>> nevermind if spinning up a 208V or 440V motor would require buying some
> >>>> comparably expensive IGBT or SiC MOSFET (silicon carbide) transistors.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> and, will I ever get a job or have a life or actually be worth anything
> >>>> as a person? who knows...
> >>>
> >>> A year ago I thought my life was over.  61, no recent programming
> >>> experience, outdated degree and not CS.  Got hired for over 60K.  We had
> >>> another position for which we got something like 5 applicants.  And
> >>> another that's open now.
> >>>
> >>> Get some experience, somehow, and I think you'll be surprised at the
> >>> doors that open, degree or no degree.  The fact is that people who can
> >>> actually produce code are scarce these days.
> >>>
> >>
> >> yeah, could be.
> >>
> >> where I am living, there are not a lot of programming jobs, and most of
> >> these are web/business/financial stuff, which I personally don't want to
> >> go anywhere near. likewise, don't want to relocate right now either.
> >
> > A year ago I would have said the same thing.  Don't avoid the
> > "business/financial stuff".  It may seem boring but it's experience
> > regardless.
> 
> in business computing though, if anything goes wrong (almost invariable 
> with programming), someone needs to take the fall, often through legal 
> action (lawsuits against former employees for lurking bugs, ...).
> 
> don't want to deal with this, as it doesn't take much to realize that 
> pretty much any code has bugs hidden in it somewhere...

I make my living finding and fixing such bugs for a Fortune 500 
financial services company.  I've never heard of anyone getting in 
trouble over any bug I've found.  Not saying it can't happen but it 
would have to be something pretty egregious.

In any case, at that level nobody's going to turn you loose on anything 
high-risk until they're sure you can handle it.

Not trying to pressure you into any course of action, just throwing out 
an alternative that I would once have rejected, but that, having gotten 
into it, I find is not like I expected.

> >> but, on the positive side, what I am doing is a lot cheaper...
> >>
> >> likewise, a person can't fry themselves with lower voltages.
> >> say, touch 48 VAC wires, and they are mostly just mildly stingy, and one
> >> can't even really feel 24 VAC.
> >>
> >> also, most of the components I have effectively limit me to about 48 VAC
> >> for single and dual phase, and 15-24 VAC for 3-phase. mostly it has to
> >> do with how commons are handled (1Ph and 2Ph can have a floating common,
> >> whereas 3Ph needs a stationary common, meaning needing about 2.8x as
> >> much voltage on the DC rail for inverting 3Ph)
> >>
> >> granted, a person can use step-up transformers, but I don't really have
> >> any good ones on hand...
> >>
> >> the crappy driver board I was using in the videos limits me to around 6
> >> or 7 volts of 3Ph though...
> >
> > Sounds like you might do better with EE than CS if you ever get a chance
> > to go back to school.
> >
> 
> what I am doing right now is probably closer to EE than CS, but I am 
> using both skillsets I suspect (both programming and electronics, as 
> well as a small amount of overlap with mechanical engineering and 
> machining).
> 
> 
> granted, it doesn't take much code to run a 3-phase inverter, for example:
>    http://pastebin.com/ftg01XWG
> 
> is basically what I can fit on a fairly small MSP430 (MSP430G2232, ex: 
> 2kB ROM, 256B RAM).
> 
> 
> some of my fancier stuff (on higher end controllers) has involved use of 
> specialized compilers and VMs, but... you aren't exactly going to be 
> able to run much of a VM in a 2kB ROM...

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#5818

"BGB" <cr88192@hotmail.com> wrote in message 
news:mri049$gaf$1@news.albasani.net...
> On 8/24/2015 11:49 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> In article <mrfb5m$eo3$1@news.albasani.net>, cr88192@hotmail.com 
>> says...

...

>>> where I am living, there are not a lot of programming jobs, and most 
>>> of
>>> these are web/business/financial stuff, which I personally don't 
>>> want to
>>> go anywhere near. likewise, don't want to relocate right now either.
>>
>> A year ago I would have said the same thing.  Don't avoid the
>> "business/financial stuff".  It may seem boring but it's experience
>> regardless.
>
> in business computing though, if anything goes wrong (almost 
> invariable with programming), someone needs to take the fall, often 
> through legal action (lawsuits against former employees for lurking 
> bugs, ...).
>
> don't want to deal with this, as it doesn't take much to realize that 
> pretty much any code has bugs hidden in it somewhere...

IME with business computing a company wouldn't just leave a programmer 
to get on with coding. When I worked for a bank we had a design-and-test 
review after a programmer had designed the program (to review the design 
and the test plan) and two other separate processes to test the new 
program before it went into production. So programmers were not left to 
take responsibility for everything themselves. The team became jointly 
responsible for what was written.

James

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#5833

On 9/5/2015 2:49 PM, James Harris wrote:
>
> "BGB" <cr88192@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:mri049$gaf$1@news.albasani.net...
>> On 8/24/2015 11:49 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> In article <mrfb5m$eo3$1@news.albasani.net>, cr88192@hotmail.com says...
>
> ...
>
>>>> where I am living, there are not a lot of programming jobs, and most of
>>>> these are web/business/financial stuff, which I personally don't
>>>> want to
>>>> go anywhere near. likewise, don't want to relocate right now either.
>>>
>>> A year ago I would have said the same thing.  Don't avoid the
>>> "business/financial stuff".  It may seem boring but it's experience
>>> regardless.
>>
>> in business computing though, if anything goes wrong (almost
>> invariable with programming), someone needs to take the fall, often
>> through legal action (lawsuits against former employees for lurking
>> bugs, ...).
>>
>> don't want to deal with this, as it doesn't take much to realize that
>> pretty much any code has bugs hidden in it somewhere...
>
> IME with business computing a company wouldn't just leave a programmer
> to get on with coding. When I worked for a bank we had a design-and-test
> review after a programmer had designed the program (to review the design
> and the test plan) and two other separate processes to test the new
> program before it went into production. So programmers were not left to
> take responsibility for everything themselves. The team became jointly
> responsible for what was written.
>

ok.

the tendency of places to put methodology before coding had been a bit 
worrying, as my main skill has mostly been throwing stuff together and 
"making it work".


I had generally been more interested in games-development, signal 
processing, and compiler technology.

my own game effort sucked, and I have heard that the game industry isn't 
so good (long hours for little pay and hostile work environments).

also, not much is going on where I am currently living, apart from some 
companies making slot machines (well, I think also things like pinball 
machines and similar), but I wouldn't want to work there as the gambling 
industry goes against my moral sensibilities.


personally, I would much rather be building robots and similar, but I 
need a job doing something at least.


my past game project was lame and no one cared.

my signal-processing stuff has generally also been kind of lame, about 
the most I have gotten from this has been some high-speed (low 
computational complexity) video compression stuff, and some basic 
computer-vision stuff based on exploiting similar technology.

(... but, no one cares ...).
most of my CV stuff thus far has been based on inferring things from 
stereo cameras (stereo images can infer a depth map or similar, and 
combined with other input can be used to build a spatial map, but it is 
a bit computationally expensive for something like an RPi and runs the 
CPU pretty hard).

I haven't yet found any good way to do object identification.


I have done speech synthesis, but intelligibility has often been fairly 
low, and my attempts at speech recognition have been rather 
unsuccessful. (yes, libraries exist for both, I was trying to do it myself).

my compiler technology stuff has basically been projects which move 
along at molasses-like speeds and have yet to produce many "compelling" 
results, apart from me figuring out how to make reasonably fast 
interpreters (and emulating microcontrollers at speeds absurdly faster 
than the real hardware).

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#5844

"BGB" <cr88192@hotmail.com> wrote in message 
news:mstp0e$laj$1@news.albasani.net...
> On 9/5/2015 2:49 PM, James Harris wrote:
>>
>> "BGB" <cr88192@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:mri049$gaf$1@news.albasani.net...

...

>>> in business computing though, if anything goes wrong (almost
>>> invariable with programming), someone needs to take the fall, often
>>> through legal action (lawsuits against former employees for lurking
>>> bugs, ...).
>>>
>>> don't want to deal with this, as it doesn't take much to realize 
>>> that
>>> pretty much any code has bugs hidden in it somewhere...
>>
>> IME with business computing a company wouldn't just leave a 
>> programmer
>> to get on with coding. When I worked for a bank we had a 
>> design-and-test
>> review after a programmer had designed the program (to review the 
>> design
>> and the test plan) and two other separate processes to test the new
>> program before it went into production. So programmers were not left 
>> to
>> take responsibility for everything themselves. The team became 
>> jointly
>> responsible for what was written.
>>
>
> ok.
>
> the tendency of places to put methodology before coding had been a bit 
> worrying, as my main skill has mostly been throwing stuff together and 
> "making it work".

I mentioned code-and-test reviews because you were concerned about being 
blamed if something went wrong. Such reviews are a way to pick up 
problems early.

That said, I didn't mean that all companies worked that way. You might 
find the approach of a given company more to your liking, and yours to 
them. Whatever they do they will probably have a way of testing what 
programmers produce before they release it into the wild.

> I had generally been more interested in games-development, signal 
> processing, and compiler technology.

...

> personally, I would much rather be building robots and similar, but I 
> need a job doing something at least.

You might find that you could do both what an employer wanted and also 
your own stuff in your own time.

Years ago I remember a friend (who was not into computing) being amazed 
that I could write software all day for work and then come home and 
write more in the evening. What he didn't realise was that the two types 
of programming were completely different. During the day I was writing 
business software for a bank's mainframes. At night I was writing things 
like games and utilities on a micro.

I only mention the above to say that if you want a job you might find 
one you enjoy even if, from the description, it doesn't look like the 
kind of thing you want to do. And yet you can also do the kinds of 
things you prefer in your own time at home.

James

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#5846

On 9/12/2015 4:58 AM, James Harris wrote:
> "BGB" <cr88192@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:mstp0e$laj$1@news.albasani.net...
>> On 9/5/2015 2:49 PM, James Harris wrote:
>>>
>>> "BGB" <cr88192@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:mri049$gaf$1@news.albasani.net...
>
> ...
>
>>>> in business computing though, if anything goes wrong (almost
>>>> invariable with programming), someone needs to take the fall, often
>>>> through legal action (lawsuits against former employees for lurking
>>>> bugs, ...).
>>>>
>>>> don't want to deal with this, as it doesn't take much to realize that
>>>> pretty much any code has bugs hidden in it somewhere...
>>>
>>> IME with business computing a company wouldn't just leave a programmer
>>> to get on with coding. When I worked for a bank we had a design-and-test
>>> review after a programmer had designed the program (to review the design
>>> and the test plan) and two other separate processes to test the new
>>> program before it went into production. So programmers were not left to
>>> take responsibility for everything themselves. The team became jointly
>>> responsible for what was written.
>>>
>>
>> ok.
>>
>> the tendency of places to put methodology before coding had been a bit
>> worrying, as my main skill has mostly been throwing stuff together and
>> "making it work".
>
> I mentioned code-and-test reviews because you were concerned about being
> blamed if something went wrong. Such reviews are a way to pick up
> problems early.
>
> That said, I didn't mean that all companies worked that way. You might
> find the approach of a given company more to your liking, and yours to
> them. Whatever they do they will probably have a way of testing what
> programmers produce before they release it into the wild.
>

I was just going on what I had heard before.

there was a medical-technology / pharmaceutical company that was 
apparently pretty bad about this (and they started going under, and were 
filing lawsuits against prior employees, ...). they were then bought out 
by another company.


>> I had generally been more interested in games-development, signal
>> processing, and compiler technology.
>
> ...
>
>> personally, I would much rather be building robots and similar, but I
>> need a job doing something at least.
>
> You might find that you could do both what an employer wanted and also
> your own stuff in your own time.
>

or, just do industrial maintenance... still pays $60k to $90k/yr.

though, granted, there is a lot more 'safety' involved with this, as 
industrial equipment and 440V 3Ph can potentially result in serious injury.


> Years ago I remember a friend (who was not into computing) being amazed
> that I could write software all day for work and then come home and
> write more in the evening. What he didn't realise was that the two types
> of programming were completely different. During the day I was writing
> business software for a bank's mainframes. At night I was writing things
> like games and utilities on a micro.
>
> I only mention the above to say that if you want a job you might find
> one you enjoy even if, from the description, it doesn't look like the
> kind of thing you want to do. And yet you can also do the kinds of
> things you prefer in your own time at home.
>

I can do coding a fair bit.

but, with some newer hobbies, not as much as before (since things like 
soldering and physically making things takes a bit of time).


I suspect most of why I always did programming before, was because it 
was a hobby I could do for free, unlike electronics where one is 
basically blowing lots of money on electronic components and similar 
(like, needing lots of different transistors for different operating 
ranges, motors are kind of expensive, ...).

though, making things IRL, you can make something that is "actually 
there". though code also has its merits, but I have reached a point of 
"no one cares", which does pose a limit.

like, I can work on stuff, but I can't really talk to anyone about it as 
no one gives a crap, so it is similarly pointless.


recently went and got some much smaller batteries (some RC battery 
packs), mostly because wanting to build a small robot which would be too 
small to use lead-acid batteries.

I was originally going to use NiMH AAs, but the RC packs in question 
weren't too terribly expensive ($12), and have much higher current 
ratings (AAs would have been in "barely sufficient" territory).

was going to use 3D printed plastic, but for now am making a prototype 
chassis mostly out of hot glue and cardboard.

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#5848

"BGB" <cr88192@hotmail.com> wrote in message 
news:mt18a8$3ja$1@news.albasani.net...

...

> I suspect most of why I always did programming before, was because it 
> was a hobby I could do for free, unlike electronics where one is 
> basically blowing lots of money on electronic components and similar 
> (like, needing lots of different transistors for different operating 
> ranges, motors are kind of expensive, ...).
>
> though, making things IRL, you can make something that is "actually 
> there". though code also has its merits, but I have reached a point of 
> "no one cares", which does pose a limit.

Yeah. I think a number of us have personal projects that are, well, 
personal; no one else would be interested in them. Perhaps that's our 
lot because we are writing them for ourselves and in some degree of 
isolation. At least if we are working on something as part of a team 
then the client and the other team members will have a shared interest. 
That can have its downsides, though, depending on their attitudes!

James

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#5858

On 9/12/2015 9:20 AM, James Harris wrote:
>
> "BGB" <cr88192@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:mt18a8$3ja$1@news.albasani.net...
>
> ...
>
>> I suspect most of why I always did programming before, was because it
>> was a hobby I could do for free, unlike electronics where one is
>> basically blowing lots of money on electronic components and similar
>> (like, needing lots of different transistors for different operating
>> ranges, motors are kind of expensive, ...).
>>
>> though, making things IRL, you can make something that is "actually
>> there". though code also has its merits, but I have reached a point of
>> "no one cares", which does pose a limit.
>
> Yeah. I think a number of us have personal projects that are, well,
> personal; no one else would be interested in them. Perhaps that's our
> lot because we are writing them for ourselves and in some degree of
> isolation. At least if we are working on something as part of a team
> then the client and the other team members will have a shared interest.
> That can have its downsides, though, depending on their attitudes!
>

pretty much.

I have my video-compression stuff, and no one cares.

I tend to focus mostly on high-speed low-complexity designs, as the main 
alternative (low-speed high-complexity) is already pretty well covered 
(H.264). it has been personally useful to some extent for my own uses 
(capturing the desktop at full resolution, or streaming video from my 
robots).

my compiler stuff is similarly niche. people don't care I suspect 
because generally I have ended up using it to run: a C variant; another 
language which is generally pretty solidly in the "extended C family".

but, "useful for my purposes" isn't really leading to anything "clearly 
different" from mainstream languages.

but, personally, I saw little gain in difference for difference sake, 
nor in trying to specify how programming "should" be done (my thinking 
being more that people will do whatever is useful for them, and that 
language design should provide mechanism and not policy).


but, recently I am mostly like, "meh whatever", as I start work on 
trying to build something resembling the Motobug from the Sonic the 
Hedgehog series.

but, it is cheap/lazy, and maintains balance via counterweights.

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