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| Started by | bob <bob@coolfone.comze.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2012-09-25 07:29 -0700 |
| Last post | 2012-10-15 22:16 +0100 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 23 — 11 participants |
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etiology of exceptions bob <bob@coolfone.comze.com> - 2012-09-25 07:29 -0700
Re: etiology of exceptions Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-09-25 09:15 -0700
Re: etiology of exceptions "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> - 2012-09-25 18:50 +0200
Re: etiology of exceptions Willem <willem@turtle.stack.nl> - 2012-09-25 20:51 +0000
Re: etiology of exceptions Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-09-25 15:32 -0700
Re: etiology of exceptions James Dow Allen <jdallen2000@yahoo.com> - 2012-09-25 23:43 -0700
Re: etiology of exceptions "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2012-09-28 08:07 +0100
Re: etiology of exceptions Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-09-28 09:47 +0100
Re: etiology of exceptions jussi.santti@ard.fi - 2012-10-07 23:13 -0700
Re: etiology of exceptions "LudovicoVan" <julio@diegidio.name> - 2012-10-08 22:37 +0100
Re: etiology of exceptions Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-10-09 10:46 +1300
Re: etiology of exceptions "LudovicoVan" <julio@diegidio.name> - 2012-10-08 22:52 +0100
Re: etiology of exceptions Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-10-10 08:06 -0700
Re: etiology of exceptions "LudovicoVan" <julio@diegidio.name> - 2012-10-10 18:24 +0100
Re: etiology of exceptions Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-10-11 05:35 -0700
Re: etiology of exceptions "LudovicoVan" <julio@diegidio.name> - 2012-10-11 14:40 +0100
Re: etiology of exceptions Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-10-11 08:20 -0700
Re: etiology of exceptions jussi.santti@ard.fi - 2012-10-15 08:28 -0700
Re: etiology of exceptions "LudovicoVan" <julio@diegidio.name> - 2012-10-15 22:13 +0100
Re: etiology of exceptions Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-10-11 15:35 +0100
Re: etiology of exceptions Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-10-11 08:21 -0700
Re: etiology of exceptions jussi.santti@ard.fi - 2012-10-15 08:10 -0700
Re: etiology of exceptions "LudovicoVan" <julio@diegidio.name> - 2012-10-15 22:16 +0100
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| From | bob <bob@coolfone.comze.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-09-25 07:29 -0700 |
| Subject | etiology of exceptions |
| Message-ID | <d4aa81c8-9fb6-4251-a065-e3573eccce62@googlegroups.com> |
What is the etiology of exceptions? Did they come about because people got tired of having to check a return value every time they called a function?
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| From | Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-09-25 09:15 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <pMk8s.2721$QI.2130@newsfe16.iad> |
| In reply to | #2240 |
On 9/25/12 7:29 AM, bob wrote: > What is the etiology of exceptions? Did they come about because people got tired of having to check a return value every time they called a function? > I don't know of how they came to be, but I can list several benefits. 1. The Error Condition and the Error Handler which-could-handle-it were often separated by several levels of calls. 2. Having a "magic" return value isn't always possible, or desirable, so some other mechanism needed to be employed. Passing an argument by reference has additional overhead for a hopefully rare case. 3. In some languages, Exceptions can be compile-time checked, which helps reduce the number of bugs. The compiler can even use its typing system to ensure that the *correct* exceptions are handled, further reducing human error. 4. Exceptions also allow easy polymorphism of error cases. Because of this, they are useful in more OO design patterns over simple return values. 5. In complicated programs, it is easier to visualize flow of execution with fewer "if" statements. Using exceptions allows easier understanding of the "normal" flow vs "exceptional" flow. It also helps to understand what code is actually responsible for handling error conditions (since its concentrated in the catch blocks). This is all just off the top of my head, and some of it may be arguable, but IMHO the argument that you can just check return values is flawed. You *can* just check return values, just as you *can* turn off a light-bulb by unscrewing it. There just is a better way.
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| From | "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-09-25 18:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <1chh3mm808ss2.1p59dkn0xeaot$.dlg@40tude.net> |
| In reply to | #2242 |
On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 09:15:13 -0700, Daniel Pitts wrote: > This is all just off the top of my head, and some of it may be arguable, > but IMHO the argument that you can just check return values is flawed. > You *can* just check return values, just as you *can* turn off a > light-bulb by unscrewing it. There just is a better way. 6. Performance, if nested calls all are checking return values this may lead to significant overhead. Exceptions move the balance towards more expensive execution in the case of rare exceptional cases for the sake of more lightweight execution when everything is OK. For example, checking for the file end may be omitted in the body of a loop that reads the file out. The file end is caught by an exception handler. There only one file and successful reads before it reached. -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de
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| From | Willem <willem@turtle.stack.nl> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-09-25 20:51 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <slrnk646bc.eg1.willem@turtle.stack.nl> |
| In reply to | #2242 |
Daniel Pitts wrote:
) On 9/25/12 7:29 AM, bob wrote:
)> What is the etiology of exceptions? Did they come about because people
)> got tired of having to check a return value every time they called a
)> function?
)>
) I don't know of how they came to be, but I can list several benefits.
)
) 1. The Error Condition and the Error Handler which-could-handle-it were
) often separated by several levels of calls.
)
) 2. Having a "magic" return value isn't always possible, or desirable, so
) some other mechanism needed to be employed. Passing an argument by
) reference has additional overhead for a hopefully rare case.
)
) 3. In some languages, Exceptions can be compile-time checked, which
) helps reduce the number of bugs. The compiler can even use its typing
) system to ensure that the *correct* exceptions are handled, further
) reducing human error.
)
) 4. Exceptions also allow easy polymorphism of error cases. Because of
) this, they are useful in more OO design patterns over simple return values.
)
) 5. In complicated programs, it is easier to visualize flow of execution
) with fewer "if" statements. Using exceptions allows easier
) understanding of the "normal" flow vs "exceptional" flow. It also helps
) to understand what code is actually responsible for handling error
) conditions (since its concentrated in the catch blocks).
)
) This is all just off the top of my head, and some of it may be arguable,
) but IMHO the argument that you can just check return values is flawed.
) You *can* just check return values, just as you *can* turn off a
) light-bulb by unscrewing it. There just is a better way.
Those are good reasons to have exception checking, but none of that answers
the question. What the OP wants to know is what was the birth of exception
checking. What is the history, how did it come about, etc.
SaSW, Willem
--
Disclaimer: I am in no way responsible for any of the statements
made in the above text. For all I know I might be
drugged or something..
No I'm not paranoid. You all think I'm paranoid, don't you !
#EOT
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| From | Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-09-25 15:32 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <8iq8s.4408$uK3.1726@newsfe08.iad> |
| In reply to | #2246 |
On 9/25/12 1:51 PM, Willem wrote: > Daniel Pitts wrote: > ) On 9/25/12 7:29 AM, bob wrote: > )> What is the etiology of exceptions? Did they come about because people > )> got tired of having to check a return value every time they called a > )> function? > )> > ) I don't know of how they came to be, but I can list several benefits. > Those are good reasons to have exception checking, but none of that answers > the question. What the OP wants to know is what was the birth of exception > checking. What is the history, how did it come about, etc. As you can see, that was acknowledged at the beginning of my post. I wasn't around at the inception of exceptions, but I could imagine any one of those ideas being the precursor. More likely was some project somewhere had basically invented the concept because of business requirements, possibly using longjmp in c, and then the other developers asked for language-level support of the concept. This is, of course, all conjecture on my part. Also, the phrasing of the original question was showing bias on the topic, so I thought I'd add bias in the opposite direction to help even out the discussion.
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| From | James Dow Allen <jdallen2000@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-09-25 23:43 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <652c8e50-f8b8-4083-95cf-d48b04ae2d1b@r8g2000pbf.googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #2240 |
On Sep 25, 9:29 pm, bob <b...@coolfone.comze.com> wrote: > What is the etiology of exceptions? Did they come about because people got tired of having to check a return value every time they called a function? The use of software-raised exceptions surely arose in imitation of hardware-raised exceptions, i.e. traps and interrupts. Here's an article which claims that fixed-arithmetic overflow trap on Univac-I in 1951 was the first hardware trap. http://www.cs.clemson.edu/~mark/interrupts.html Here's an article by John McCarthy on his suggestion that a new trap be added to IBM mainframe in 1957: http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/history/timesharing/timesharing.html James Dow Allen
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| From | "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-09-28 08:07 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <MO-dnUefvOGW0PjNnZ2dnUVZ8madnZ2d@bt.com> |
| In reply to | #2240 |
bob wrote:
> What is the etiology of exceptions? Did they come about because people
> got tired of having to check a return value every time they called a
> function?
If you're interested in the history, you might read:
Goodenough J. B.: Exception Handling: Issues and a Proposed Notation.
CACM 1975, vol 18, number 12
and several of the references look relevant too.
Can be got from:
http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~weimer/2007-615/reading/goodenough-exceptions.pdf
-- chris
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| From | Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-09-28 09:47 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <k43o78$v3s$2@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #2258 |
Chris Uppal wrote: > If you're interested in the history, you might read: > > Goodenough J. B.: Exception Handling: Issues and a Proposed Notation. > CACM 1975, vol 18, number 12 > > and several of the references look relevant too. > > Can be got from: > > http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~weimer/2007-615/reading/goodenough- exceptions.pdf Excellente read. Thanks for pointing it out. Rui Maciel
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| From | jussi.santti@ard.fi |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-07 23:13 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <902b53ef-fa30-4470-914f-a5d3bf904b60@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #2240 |
tiistai, 25. syyskuuta 2012 17.29.21 UTC+3 bob kirjoitti: > What is the etiology of exceptions? Did they come about because people got tired of having to check a return value every time they called a function? Not answering the etiology of exceptions question, sorry. But a related question: What is the best understanding of their role after 40+ years? Let me try: -exceptions for programmer errors only -exceptions should be reserved for complete failures -exception are no program flow cotrol structures -exception do not add to program correctness, but to robustness (operation out of specifications) br Jussi
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| From | "LudovicoVan" <julio@diegidio.name> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-08 22:37 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <k4vh2i$3qg$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #2294 |
<jussi.santti@ard.fi> wrote in message news:902b53ef-fa30-4470-914f-a5d3bf904b60@googlegroups.com... > tiistai, 25. syyskuuta 2012 17.29.21 UTC+3 bob kirjoitti: >> What is the etiology of exceptions? Did they come about because people >> got tired of having to check a return value every time they called a >> function? > > Not answering the etiology of exceptions question, sorry. But a related > question: What is the best understanding of their role after 40+ years? > Let me try: > > -exceptions for programmer errors only > -exceptions should be reserved for complete failures > -exception are no program flow cotrol structures > -exception do not add to program correctness, but to robustness (operation > out of specifications) Not so. -LV
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| From | Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-09 10:46 +1300 |
| Message-ID | <adgvsoFp4lcU3@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #2296 |
On 10/09/12 10:37, LudovicoVan wrote: > <jussi.santti@ard.fi> wrote in message > news:902b53ef-fa30-4470-914f-a5d3bf904b60@googlegroups.com... >> tiistai, 25. syyskuuta 2012 17.29.21 UTC+3 bob kirjoitti: >>> What is the etiology of exceptions? Did they come about because people >>> got tired of having to check a return value every time they called a >>> function? >> >> Not answering the etiology of exceptions question, sorry. But a related >> question: What is the best understanding of their role after 40+ years? >> Let me try: >> >> -exceptions for programmer errors only >> -exceptions should be reserved for complete failures >> -exception are no program flow cotrol structures >> -exception do not add to program correctness, but to robustness (operation >> out of specifications) > > Not so. Now there's a well presented argument..... -- Ian Collins
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| From | "LudovicoVan" <julio@diegidio.name> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-08 22:52 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <k4vhum$8sd$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #2297 |
"Ian Collins" <ian-news@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:adgvsoFp4lcU3@mid.individual.net... > On 10/09/12 10:37, LudovicoVan wrote: >> <jussi.santti@ard.fi> wrote in message >> news:902b53ef-fa30-4470-914f-a5d3bf904b60@googlegroups.com... >>> tiistai, 25. syyskuuta 2012 17.29.21 UTC+3 bob kirjoitti: >>>> What is the etiology of exceptions? Did they come about because people >>>> got tired of having to check a return value every time they called a >>>> function? >>> >>> Not answering the etiology of exceptions question, sorry. But a related >>> question: What is the best understanding of their role after 40+ years? >>> Let me try: >>> >>> -exceptions for programmer errors only >>> -exceptions should be reserved for complete failures >>> -exception are no program flow cotrol structures >>> -exception do not add to program correctness, but to robustness >>> (operation >>> out of specifications) >> >> Not so. > > Now there's a well presented argument..... Where is it? :) Out of metaphor (so to say), if you try and negate the above assertions, you'll get, I think, pretty much acceptable ones. It seemed so much done on purpose that I fear I am spoiling something... -LV
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| From | Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-10 08:06 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <02c3ed18-a81a-4ae0-b03d-666bc239d862@k6g2000vbr.googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #2294 |
On Oct 8, 7:13 am, jussi.san...@ard.fi wrote: > tiistai, 25. syyskuuta 2012 17.29.21 UTC+3 bob kirjoitti: > > > What is the etiology of exceptions? Did they come about because people got tired of having to check a return value every time they called a function? > > Not answering the etiology of exceptions question, sorry. But a related question: What is the best understanding of their role after 40+ years? > Let me try: > -exceptions for programmer errors only > -exceptions should be reserved for complete failures no to both of these. I've used exceptions to exit from deeply nested parsers. There is no point in propagating an error through the various calls and it makes everything more complicated. You might be thinking of assertions. > -exception are no program flow cotrol structures probably > -exception do not add to program correctness, but to robustness (operation out of specifications) the exceptions a function may throw could be thought of as part of its specification (though C++ has problems with this)
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| From | "LudovicoVan" <julio@diegidio.name> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-10 18:24 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <k54b09$v0v$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #2301 |
"Nick Keighley" <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:02c3ed18-a81a-4ae0-b03d-666bc239d862@k6g2000vbr.googlegroups.com... > On Oct 8, 7:13 am, jussi.san...@ard.fi wrote: >> tiistai, 25. syyskuuta 2012 17.29.21 UTC+3 bob kirjoitti: <snip> >> -exception are no program flow cotrol structures > > probably But they do alter/contribute to the program flow (I mean, even when used properly). To the point that we do model that flow, say, in a unit functional diagram. >> -exception do not add to program correctness, but to robustness >> (operation out of specifications) > > the exceptions a function may throw could be thought of as part of its > specification (though C++ has problems with this) If it is not in the spec, it is not an exception in the technical sense. This might be clearer if we think, for instance, of the case of accessing an external API. -LV
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| From | Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-11 05:35 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <0eed1afd-7a29-4b46-b990-0ee9d988c76d@ib4g2000vbb.googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #2307 |
On Oct 10, 6:24 pm, "LudovicoVan" <ju...@diegidio.name> wrote: > "Nick Keighley" <nick_keighley_nos...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > news:02c3ed18-a81a-4ae0-b03d-666bc239d862@k6g2000vbr.googlegroups.com...> On Oct 8, 7:13 am, jussi.san...@ard.fi wrote: > >> tiistai, 25. syyskuuta 2012 17.29.21 UTC+3 bob kirjoitti: > > <snip> > > >> -exception are no program flow cotrol structures > > > probably > > But they do alter/contribute to the program flow (I mean, even when used > properly). To the point that we do model that flow, say, in a unit > functional diagram. > > >> -exception do not add to program correctness, but to robustness > >> (operation out of specifications) > > > the exceptions a function may throw could be thought of as part of its > > specification (though C++ has problems with this) > > If it is not in the spec, it is not an exception in the technical sense. > This might be clearer if we think, for instance, of the case of accessing an > external API. the difficulty is that exception specifications are broken in C++ http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2010/n3051.html (that's just the first hit I got looking for "C++ exception problem") If you are specifying an API then the exceptions that may thrown are usually documented (eg. with comments) but not by using exception specifications
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| From | "LudovicoVan" <julio@diegidio.name> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-11 14:40 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <k56i7p$4fq$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #2320 |
"Nick Keighley" <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:0eed1afd-7a29-4b46-b990-0ee9d988c76d@ib4g2000vbb.googlegroups.com... > On Oct 10, 6:24 pm, "LudovicoVan" <ju...@diegidio.name> wrote: <snip> >> If it is not in the spec, it is not an exception in the technical sense. >> This might be clearer if we think, for instance, of the case of accessing >> an >> external API. > > the difficulty is that exception specifications are broken in C++ You are using "specification" in a very specific technical sense, but I was referring to the formal documentation that must go with any product, regardless of implementation details. And the overall point was that an exception is, *by definition*, something we *do* forecast. -LV
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| From | Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-11 08:20 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <02a28ec7-ba50-4f7c-9c79-5c31343eeb62@l7g2000vbj.googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #2321 |
On Oct 11, 2:40 pm, "LudovicoVan" <ju...@diegidio.name> wrote: > "Nick Keighley" <nick_keighley_nos...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > news:0eed1afd-7a29-4b46-b990-0ee9d988c76d@ib4g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...> On Oct 10, 6:24 pm, "LudovicoVan" <ju...@diegidio.name> wrote: > > <snip> > > >> If it is not in the spec, it is not an exception in the technical sense. > >> This might be clearer if we think, for instance, of the case of accessing > >> an > >> external API. > > > the difficulty is that exception specifications are broken in C++ > > You are using "specification" in a very specific technical sense, but I was > referring to the formal documentation that must go with any product, > regardless of implementation details. And the overall point was that an > exception is, *by definition*, something we *do* forecast. yes I got that, hence I pointed out we can specify the exceptional behaviour by means other than C++'s exception specifications
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| From | jussi.santti@ard.fi |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-15 08:28 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <72efd5d6-d0d0-4412-882d-c5e33cea45dd@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #2321 |
torstai, 11. lokakuuta 2012 16.40.10 UTC+3 Julio P. Di Egidio kirjoitti: > "Nick Keighley" <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > news:0eed1afd-7a29-4b46-b990-0ee9d988c76d@ib4g2000vbb.googlegroups.com... > > > On Oct 10, 6:24 pm, "LudovicoVan" <ju...@diegidio.name> wrote: > > <snip> > > > > >> If it is not in the spec, it is not an exception in the technical sense. > > >> This might be clearer if we think, for instance, of the case of accessing > > >> an > > >> external API. > > > > > > the difficulty is that exception specifications are broken in C++ > > > > You are using "specification" in a very specific technical sense, but I was > > referring to the formal documentation that must go with any product, > > regardless of implementation details. And the overall point was that an > > exception is, *by definition*, something we *do* forecast. > When we talk about C++ and other common languages, the specifications are in the form of function prototypes. br Jussi > > > -LV
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| From | "LudovicoVan" <julio@diegidio.name> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-15 22:13 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <k5huaa$iq7$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #2347 |
<jussi.santti@ard.fi> wrote in message news:72efd5d6-d0d0-4412-882d-c5e33cea45dd@googlegroups.com... > torstai, 11. lokakuuta 2012 16.40.10 UTC+3 Julio P. Di Egidio kirjoitti: >> "Nick Keighley" <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> wrote in message <snip> >> > the difficulty is that exception specifications are broken in C++ >> >> You are using "specification" in a very specific technical sense, but I >> was >> referring to the formal documentation that must go with any product, >> regardless of implementation details. And the overall point was that an >> exception is, *by definition*, something we *do* forecast. >> > When we talk about C++ and other common languages, the specifications are > in the form of function prototypes. Thanks for explaining what was already understood. OTOH, what you talk about remains quite irrelevant to the OP. -LV
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| From | Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-11 15:35 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <k56leo$2j3$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #2320 |
Nick Keighley wrote:
>> >> -exception do not add to program correctness, but to robustness
>> >> (operation out of specifications)
>>
>> > the exceptions a function may throw could be thought of as part of its
>> > specification (though C++ has problems with this)
>>
>> If it is not in the spec, it is not an exception in the technical sense.
>> This might be clearer if we think, for instance, of the case of accessing
>> an external API.
>
> the difficulty is that exception specifications are broken in C++
>
> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2010/n3051.html
> (that's just the first hit I got looking for "C++ exception problem")
>
> If you are specifying an API then the exceptions that may thrown are
> usually documented (eg. with comments) but not by using exception
> specifications
That isn't exactly a major issue. A catch(...){} block is quite capable of
catching exceptional events which are themselves exceptional.
Rui Maciel
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