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Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #94627
| From | Rich <rich@example.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.os.linux.misc |
| Subject | Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? |
| Date | 2026-10-23 19:34 +0000 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <11bgcrd$236dd$2@dont-email.me> (permalink) |
| References | (2 earlier) <njcldeFit4rU2@mid.individual.net> <R_9AS.14667$1l6.8386@fx42.iad> <11asro4$33n8m$16@dont-email.me> <11atfac$3cv5p$2@dont-email.me> <11ati7b$3bqcl$15@dont-email.me> |
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: > On 16/10/2026 16:19, Rich wrote: >> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>> On 15/10/2026 20:40, Charlie Gibbs wrote: >>>> Actually, the question should probably not be how did we survive >>>> without these things, but how long we're going to survive with them. >>> >>> Or worse, how long would we survive without them? >>> >>> The thought of a total loss of Internet, let alone the whole power grid, >>> fills me with horror. >>> >>> So much depends on it. Almost everything runs on electricity these days. >>> The pumps that drain the marshes for agriculture. The pumps that supply >>> you with fresh drinkable water, the pumps that get the sewage to the >>> treatment plants. The pumps that put fuel into your car. The pumps that >>> run your refrigerator or your central heating. The computers that >>> process everyday money transactions... >> >> All of those things (other than the computers that did not exist yet) >> also ran on electricity in the 70's, 60's, 50's, etc. So while it does >> not change the worry of a power grid collapse for any length of time, >> it also also been an overhanging risk for a very long time. >> > That is not true But it is. > Much ran on localised power sources from windmills, to steam end diesel > engines right up to the 90s Yes, but "much" =/= "all". The difference would have been "less reliance on a single power source". But if your local source for whatever ran on electric motors, you were at the mercy of the grid being powered for whatever that "source" provided you. > Gas refrigerators are still being made Yes, but also does not change the fact that electric powered refrigerators have been around since at least sometime 40's to 50's timeframe. And if you had an electric powered refrigerator in your home or business, you were reliant upon the power grid supplying it power to keep the contents cold. > Petrol (gasoline) used to be pumped by hand Yes, but at least in the US the last actual use of a hand pumped gasoline pump went the way of the dodo by the 50's. Once all the stations around you electrified, pumping the fuel out of the tanks in the ground again needed electricity. > cash existed as the dominant means of payment Yeah, this one you get a point for, as "electronic payment" as the sole means of commerce is a relatively new thing (but it somewhat depended upon "computers" becoming ingrained in commerce as well...). > People had candles paraffin lamps and solid fuel or wood fires. They also had oil or natural gas (methane/propane) furnaces for hot water/air with electric water pumps or electric air blowers. No electricity, no way to move the heat from the furnace to the rest of the living space. The one item left that isn't yet dependent upon electric supply is gas (methane/propane) tank hot water heaters. Those still seem to be built as a mechanical thermostat driving a mechanical fuel valve to turn the burner on and off. Of course, to make hot water they do need a fuel supply, and if that fuel is piped in from a distribution system instead of a tank, there's a dependency on the distribution system working. > In short when things went sideways there was older technology to fall > back on Yes. Things have shifted in some ways for the worse, in that the old fallbacks are either simply gone or nearly so, making a failure of the "one and only power supply" by far more dangerous of an issue. But it is an aspect of degrees, there was still a dependence even in the days before everything was "computerized" or "powered by electricity". > Who today carries a paper map and a compass? Few, other than maybe hikers who've learned their lesson that there is usually little opportunity to recharge their batteries when deep in the back country. > The problem is that today apart from survivalists no one has the kit or > even knows how to use it Yes, that has made the outcome of a grid collapse way worse than it was during years gone past. We are balancing on an ever narrower edge, and without a clear path to a way to keep our balance on that edge. > Yes. That is an aspect of it. Also the utter dependency of the city to a > rural hinterland to supply the fresh food and water, the fundamental > energy, and have somewhere to dump the trash and the sewage. A rural > hinterland that the urban dweller does not understand and despises. Yet > whose impact is taken entirely for granted. > > "We don't need farms! We have supermarkets!" The city dweller learns quickly when something chokes up just how long the supplies at the local supermarket actual lasts. It's not that long. It only appears to always be stocked because it is constantly being restocked. But let something (could even be a weather event) interfear with the shippments that support that constant restocking, and the shelves quickly become bare. > Anyone who does a systems analysis of modern post industrial > civilisation is horrified at the multiple single points of failure > and key infrastructures. Ukraine and Russia are currently engaged in > doing just that, the one to destroy a civilisation that wont submit, > and the other to destroy the war machine being used to try. On that I won't disagree, we have over time moved from a more distributed system reliant on multiple other systems such that one needed multiple independent disconnected systems to fail simultaneously for a major issue to appear to one where a single point of failure takes *everything* down with it at once. That is not a /reliable/ systems design.
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Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? Martin Davies-Roundhill <enduphere.xyz@gmail.com> - 2026-10-15 14:52 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-15 07:57 -0700
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-15 19:33 +0100
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-15 19:40 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-15 17:01 +0200
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? Beej Jorgensen <beej@beej.us> - 2026-10-15 17:29 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-15 19:27 +0100
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-15 18:47 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-15 19:40 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-15 23:35 +0200
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 01:41 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 10:47 +0100
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 18:40 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 23:17 +0100
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 02:53 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 10:46 +0100
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 07:58 -0700
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 15:59 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-16 18:46 +0200
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 18:32 +0100
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-16 19:41 +0200
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 18:26 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-16 22:40 +0200
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 23:11 +0100
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 03:06 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 14:46 +0100
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-17 12:24 +0200
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:31 +0100
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-16 18:46 +0200
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 18:35 +0100
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-16 19:43 +0200
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 18:34 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-16 22:47 +0200
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 02:40 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-17 12:33 +0200
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 12:04 +0100
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-17 13:40 +0200
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-17 11:56 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-17 13:59 +0200
Programming Books (was Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control?) John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-17 15:01 +0200
Re: Programming Books (was Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control?) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 18:26 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 10:45 +0100
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-16 13:56 +0200
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 15:38 +0100
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-10-16 15:19 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 17:09 +0100
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 18:21 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-10-23 19:34 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-23 20:28 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-23 22:44 +0000
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-24 03:18 -0400
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-24 13:44 +0200
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-24 13:09 +0100
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-24 14:45 +0200
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-24 14:02 +0100
[OT] Gas inspections "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-24 21:23 +0200
Re: [OT] Gas inspections c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-26 01:16 -0400
Re: [OT] Gas inspections "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-26 11:33 +0100
Re: [OT] Gas inspections The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-26 11:08 +0000
Re: [OT] Gas inspections "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-26 13:28 +0100
Re: [OT] Gas inspections The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-26 13:07 +0000
Re: [OT] Gas inspections c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-26 09:08 -0400
Re: [OT] Gas inspections The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-26 13:59 +0000
Re: [OT] Gas inspections "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-26 22:28 +0100
Re: [OT] Gas inspections The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-26 21:39 +0000
Re: [OT] Gas inspections "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-26 23:03 +0100
Re: [OT] Gas inspections c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-27 00:44 -0400
Re: [OT] Gas inspections c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-26 09:05 -0400
Re: [OT] Gas inspections "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-26 22:47 +0100
Re: [OT] Gas inspections Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-10-27 06:34 -0700
Re: [OT] Gas inspections The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-27 14:37 +0000
Re: [OT] Gas inspections rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-27 18:38 +0000
Re: [OT] Gas inspections "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-28 13:05 +0100
Re: [OT] Gas inspections c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-28 10:07 -0400
Re: [OT] Gas inspections "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-28 18:06 +0100
Re: [OT] Gas inspections The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-28 17:57 +0000
Re: [OT] Gas inspections c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-28 22:21 -0400
Re: [OT] Gas inspections Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2026-10-29 02:51 +0000
Re: [OT] Gas inspections "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-29 21:48 +0100
Re: [OT] Gas inspections "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-29 21:45 +0100
Re: [OT] Gas inspections The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-29 23:41 +0000
Re: [OT] Gas inspections Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-10-27 06:19 -0700
Re: [OT] Gas inspections c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-27 10:11 -0400
Re: [OT] Gas inspections Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-10-28 06:32 -0700
Re: [OT] Gas inspections c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-28 10:32 -0400
Re: [OT] Gas inspections "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-28 18:10 +0100
Re: [OT] Gas inspections c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-28 22:32 -0400
Re: [OT] Gas inspections "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-29 21:49 +0100
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-10-24 11:52 -0700
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-24 10:35 +0100
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-10-24 11:40 -0700
Re: Personal agents on Linux: what should stay under the user's control? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-24 10:31 +0100
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