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Founder of Gentoo Daniel Robbins: "I actually try to avoid using Linux on the desktop"

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  Founder of Gentoo Daniel Robbins: "I actually try to avoid using Linux on the desktop" DFS <guhnoo-basher@linux.advocaca> - 2024-12-14 18:29 -0500
    Re: Founder of Gentoo Daniel Robbins: "I actually try to avoid using Linux on the desktop" Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2024-12-14 23:56 +0000
      Re: Founder of Gentoo Daniel Robbins: "I actually try to avoid using Linux on the desktop" vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2024-12-15 00:40 +0000
        Re: Founder of Gentoo Daniel Robbins: "I actually try to avoid using Linux on the desktop" Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2024-12-15 09:16 +0000
      Re: Founder of Gentoo Daniel Robbins: "I actually try to avoid using Linux on the desktop" Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2024-12-15 11:11 -0500
        Re: Founder of Gentoo Daniel Robbins: "I actually try to avoid using Linux on the desktop" DFS <guhnoo-basher@linux.advocaca> - 2024-12-20 09:46 -0500
      Re: Founder of Gentoo Daniel Robbins: "I actually try to avoid using Linux on the desktop" chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2024-12-16 19:48 -0600
        Re: Founder of Gentoo Daniel Robbins: "I actually try to avoid using Linux on the desktop" RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2024-12-17 08:04 +0000
    Re: Founder of Gentoo Daniel Robbins: "I actually try to avoid using Linux on the desktop" rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-15 00:14 +0000
    Re: Founder of Gentoo Daniel Robbins: "I actually try to avoid using Linux on the desktop" CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2024-12-15 09:04 -0500
      Re: Founder of Gentoo Daniel Robbins: "I actually try to avoid using Linux on the desktop" RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2024-12-16 10:24 +0000
        Re: Founder of Gentoo Daniel Robbins: "I actually try to avoid using Linux on the desktop" CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2024-12-16 10:39 -0500
          Re: Founder of Gentoo Daniel Robbins: "I actually try to avoid using Linux on the desktop" RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2024-12-17 08:01 +0000
            Re: Founder of Gentoo Daniel Robbins: "I actually try to avoid using Linux on the desktop" CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2024-12-17 08:54 -0500
              Re: Founder of Gentoo Daniel Robbins: "I actually try to avoid using Linux on the desktop" RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2024-12-17 20:25 +0000
                Re: Founder of Gentoo Daniel Robbins: "I actually try to avoid using Linux on the desktop" CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2024-12-17 17:51 -0500
                  Re: Founder of Gentoo Daniel Robbins: "I actually try to avoid using Linux on the desktop" RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2024-12-18 10:59 +0000
                    Re: Founder of Gentoo Daniel Robbins: "I actually try to avoid using Linux on the desktop" CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2024-12-18 08:57 -0500
                      Re: Founder of Gentoo Daniel Robbins: "I actually try to avoid using Linux on the desktop" RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2024-12-19 07:45 +0000
                        Re: Founder of Gentoo Daniel Robbins: "I actually try to avoid using Linux on the desktop" CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2024-12-19 08:56 -0500
                          Re: Founder of Gentoo Daniel Robbins: "I actually try to avoid using Linux on the desktop" RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2024-12-20 05:46 +0000
                            Re: Founder of Gentoo Daniel Robbins: "I actually try to avoid using Linux on the desktop" CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2024-12-20 08:49 -0500
                              Re: Founder of Gentoo Daniel Robbins: "I actually try to avoid using Linux on the desktop" RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2024-12-20 18:18 +0000
            Re: Founder of Gentoo Daniel Robbins: "I actually try to avoid using Linux on the desktop" rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-17 20:24 +0000
              Re: Founder of Gentoo Daniel Robbins: "I actually try to avoid using Linux on the desktop" RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2024-12-18 10:48 +0000
    Re: Founder of Gentoo Daniel Robbins: "I actually try to avoid using Linux on the desktop" Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2024-12-15 14:30 -0500

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#680254 — Founder of Gentoo Daniel Robbins: "I actually try to avoid using Linux on the desktop"

"I will use Windows 7 or Mac OS interchangeably as desktops, and often 
surprise people when they find this out. I actually try to avoid using 
Linux on the desktop because it's a distraction from my focus, which is 
Linux userspace internals (non-GUI stuff.)"

2012 interview
https://usesthis.com/interviews/daniel.robbins/



Say it ain't so!

[toc] | [next] | [standalone]

#680259

Le 14-12-2024, DFS <guhnoo-basher@linux.advocaca> a écrit :
>
> "I will use Windows 7 or Mac OS interchangeably as desktops, and often 
> surprise people when they find this out. I actually try to avoid using 
> Linux on the desktop because it's a distraction from my focus, which is 
> Linux userspace internals (non-GUI stuff.)"
>
> 2012 interview
> https://usesthis.com/interviews/daniel.robbins/
>
> Say it ain't so!

Agreed, with Windows and mac, as you can't adapt them to your needs, you
have to adapt yourself to their design. With Linux, you can adapt it to
your needs so if you want to, it takes some time and can be considered
as a distraction.

That being said, depending on your choice of WM, the ricing is not that
long and stays for a long time. Unlike Windows which changes with every
update and asks you to learn everything again from scratch.

Maybe that's why you didn't quote the part when he says he'd like to do
it: "I'd like to create my own desktop environment for Linux, but I'm a
perfectionist and semi-good graphic designer, so it'll have to be really
good."

And of course, you forgot to quote: "If anything can be learned from
this, there is power in actually articulating your dream setup, since
once you know what it would look like, you may actually find that making
it happen is easier than you think." Which is exactly what Linux
provides you. It's interesting to see how the same message can be used
to say one thing and it's contrary depending on the way you quote it.

-- 
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#680264

On 14 Dec 2024 23:56:58 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> wrote
in <675e1b4a$0$11455$426a74cc@news.free.fr>:

> Le 14-12-2024, DFS <guhnoo-basher@linux.advocaca> a écrit :
>>
>> "I will use Windows 7 or Mac OS interchangeably as desktops, and often 
>> surprise people when they find this out. I actually try to avoid using 
>> Linux on the desktop because it's a distraction from my focus, which is 
>> Linux userspace internals (non-GUI stuff.)"
>>
>> 2012 interview
>> https://usesthis.com/interviews/daniel.robbins/
>>
>> Say it ain't so!
> 
> Agreed, with Windows and mac, as you can't adapt them to your needs, you
> have to adapt yourself to their design. With Linux, you can adapt it to
> your needs so if you want to, it takes some time and can be considered
> as a distraction.
> 
> That being said, depending on your choice of WM, the ricing is not that
> long and stays for a long time. Unlike Windows which changes with every
> update and asks you to learn everything again from scratch.
> 
> Maybe that's why you didn't quote the part when he says he'd like to do
> it: "I'd like to create my own desktop environment for Linux, but I'm a
> perfectionist and semi-good graphic designer, so it'll have to be really
> good."
> 
> And of course, you forgot to quote: "If anything can be learned from
> this, there is power in actually articulating your dream setup, since
> once you know what it would look like, you may actually find that making
> it happen is easier than you think." Which is exactly what Linux
> provides you. It's interesting to see how the same message can be used
> to say one thing and it's contrary depending on the way you quote it.

And...the article is 12 years old.  Linux desktops have improved
considerably since then.

-- 
-v System76 Thelio Mega v1.1 x86_64 NVIDIA RTX 3090 Ti
   OS: Linux 6.12.4 Release: Mint 21.3 Mem: 258G
   "What has four legs and an arm? A happy pitbull."

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#680298

Le 15-12-2024, vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> a écrit :
> On 14 Dec 2024 23:56:58 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> wrote
> in <675e1b4a$0$11455$426a74cc@news.free.fr>:
>
>> Le 14-12-2024, DFS <guhnoo-basher@linux.advocaca> a écrit :
>>>
>>> "I will use Windows 7 or Mac OS interchangeably as desktops, and often 
>>> surprise people when they find this out. I actually try to avoid using 
>>> Linux on the desktop because it's a distraction from my focus, which is 
>>> Linux userspace internals (non-GUI stuff.)"
>>>
>>> 2012 interview
>>> https://usesthis.com/interviews/daniel.robbins/
>>>
>>> Say it ain't so!
>> 
>> Agreed, with Windows and mac, as you can't adapt them to your needs, you
>> have to adapt yourself to their design. With Linux, you can adapt it to
>> your needs so if you want to, it takes some time and can be considered
>> as a distraction.
>> 
>> That being said, depending on your choice of WM, the ricing is not that
>> long and stays for a long time. Unlike Windows which changes with every
>> update and asks you to learn everything again from scratch.
>> 
>> Maybe that's why you didn't quote the part when he says he'd like to do
>> it: "I'd like to create my own desktop environment for Linux, but I'm a
>> perfectionist and semi-good graphic designer, so it'll have to be really
>> good."
>> 
>> And of course, you forgot to quote: "If anything can be learned from
>> this, there is power in actually articulating your dream setup, since
>> once you know what it would look like, you may actually find that making
>> it happen is easier than you think." Which is exactly what Linux
>> provides you. It's interesting to see how the same message can be used
>> to say one thing and it's contrary depending on the way you quote it.
>
> And...the article is 12 years old.

It's still relevant. 

> Linux desktops have improved considerably since then.

It's not the point. It doesn't say the desktops is good or bad. It says
you can change it, so you are tempted to do it and it's a distraction.
That's still true today.

-- 
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

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#680343

Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:

> Le 14-12-2024, DFS <guhnoo-basher@linux.advocaca> a écrit :
>>
>> "I will use Windows 7 or Mac OS interchangeably as desktops, and often 
>> surprise people when they find this out. I actually try to avoid using 
>> Linux on the desktop because it's a distraction from my focus, which is 
>> Linux userspace internals (non-GUI stuff.)"
>>
>> 2012 interview
>> https://usesthis.com/interviews/daniel.robbins/
>>
>> Say it ain't so!

12 years ago. What's up these days?

> Agreed, with Windows and mac, as you can't adapt them to your needs, you
> have to adapt yourself to their design. With Linux, you can adapt it to
> your needs so if you want to, it takes some time and can be considered
> as a distraction.
>
> That being said, depending on your choice of WM, the ricing is not that
> long and stays for a long time. Unlike Windows which changes with every
> update and asks you to learn everything again from scratch.
>
> Maybe that's why you didn't quote the part when he says he'd like to do
> it: "I'd like to create my own desktop environment for Linux, but I'm a
> perfectionist and semi-good graphic designer, so it'll have to be really
> good."
>
> And of course, you forgot to quote: "If anything can be learned from
> this, there is power in actually articulating your dream setup, since
> once you know what it would look like, you may actually find that making
> it happen is easier than you think." Which is exactly what Linux
> provides you. It's interesting to see how the same message can be used
> to say one thing and it's contrary depending on the way you quote it.
>
> -- 
> Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
> https://scarpet42.gitlab.io


-- 
Give thought to your reputation.  Consider changing name and moving to
a new town.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#680885

On 12/15/2024 11:11 AM, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
> Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:
> 
>> Le 14-12-2024, DFS <guhnoo-basher@linux.advocaca> a écrit :
>>>
>>> "I will use Windows 7 or Mac OS interchangeably as desktops, and often
>>> surprise people when they find this out. I actually try to avoid using
>>> Linux on the desktop because it's a distraction from my focus, which is
>>> Linux userspace internals (non-GUI stuff.)"
>>>
>>> 2012 interview
>>> https://usesthis.com/interviews/daniel.robbins/
>>>
>>> Say it ain't so!
> 
> 12 years ago. What's up these days?


He since quit Microsoft, and now refers to his time there as an 
'experiment'... the way GuhNoo "men" refer to their homo experiences in 
college.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#680550

Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

> some dumb fsck wrote:
>>
>> "I will use Windows 7 or Mac OS interchangeably as desktops, and often 
>> surprise people when they find this out. I actually try to avoid using 
>> Linux on the desktop because it's a distraction from my focus, which is 
>> Linux userspace internals (non-GUI stuff.)"
>>
>> 2012 interview
>> https://usesthis.com/interviews/daniel.robbins/
>>
>> Say it ain't so!

"I am primarily focused on Linux stuff - I tend to use GNU screen and
ssh sessions (console) for nearly all my work, and Chrome as my
preferred browser. I will use Windows 7 or Mac OS interchangeably as
desktops, and often surprise people when they find this out. I
actually try to avoid using Linux on the desktop because it's a
distraction from my focus, which is Linux userspace internals (non-GUI
stuff.)

If I set up X, I tend to waste a week trying to tweak the font
rendering, and then I start thinking about creating my own desktop
environment... gotta stay focused :) Some day, I'd like to create my
own desktop environment for Linux, but I'm a perfectionist and
semi-good graphic designer, so it'll have to be really good."

Only some dumb fsck would see anything wrong with any of the above.  I
mean, it might seem a bit "silly", but that's the guy's right.

>Agreed, with Windows and mac, as you can't adapt them to your needs, you
>have to adapt yourself to their design. With Linux, you can adapt it to
>your needs so if you want to, it takes some time and can be considered
>as a distraction.
>
>That being said, depending on your choice of WM, the ricing is not that
>long and stays for a long time. Unlike Windows which changes with every
>update and asks you to learn everything again from scratch.
>
>Maybe that's why you didn't quote the part when he says he'd like to do
>it: "I'd like to create my own desktop environment for Linux, but I'm a
>perfectionist and semi-good graphic designer, so it'll have to be really
>good."
>
>And of course, you forgot to quote: "If anything can be learned from
>this, there is power in actually articulating your dream setup, since
>once you know what it would look like, you may actually find that making
>it happen is easier than you think." Which is exactly what Linux
>provides you. It's interesting to see how the same message can be used
>to say one thing and it's contrary depending on the way you quote it.

He's as dishonest as he is dumb.

-- 
"Welcome to the Linux community.  Choice is only approved when you
choose what these Linux vermin want you to choose."  -  Flatshit,
lying shamelessly

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#680559

On 2024-12-17, chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>
>> some dumb fsck wrote:
>>>
>>> "I will use Windows 7 or Mac OS interchangeably as desktops, and often 
>>> surprise people when they find this out. I actually try to avoid using 
>>> Linux on the desktop because it's a distraction from my focus, which is 
>>> Linux userspace internals (non-GUI stuff.)"
>>>
>>> 2012 interview
>>> https://usesthis.com/interviews/daniel.robbins/
>>>
>>> Say it ain't so!
>
> "I am primarily focused on Linux stuff - I tend to use GNU screen and
> ssh sessions (console) for nearly all my work, and Chrome as my
> preferred browser. I will use Windows 7 or Mac OS interchangeably as
> desktops, and often surprise people when they find this out. I
> actually try to avoid using Linux on the desktop because it's a
> distraction from my focus, which is Linux userspace internals (non-GUI
> stuff.)
>
> If I set up X, I tend to waste a week trying to tweak the font
> rendering, and then I start thinking about creating my own desktop
> environment... gotta stay focused :) Some day, I'd like to create my
> own desktop environment for Linux, but I'm a perfectionist and
> semi-good graphic designer, so it'll have to be really good."

I'm happy with the Cinnamon desktop and do very little tweaking. On my 
laptops I do scale the screen either to 125% or 150% — which is about all 
the "font tweaking" I find necessary. 

> Only some dumb fsck would see anything wrong with any of the above.  I
> mean, it might seem a bit "silly", but that's the guy's right.
>
>>Agreed, with Windows and mac, as you can't adapt them to your needs, you
>>have to adapt yourself to their design. With Linux, you can adapt it to
>>your needs so if you want to, it takes some time and can be considered
>>as a distraction.
>>
>>That being said, depending on your choice of WM, the ricing is not that
>>long and stays for a long time. Unlike Windows which changes with every
>>update and asks you to learn everything again from scratch.
>>
>>Maybe that's why you didn't quote the part when he says he'd like to do
>>it: "I'd like to create my own desktop environment for Linux, but I'm a
>>perfectionist and semi-good graphic designer, so it'll have to be really
>>good."
>>
>>And of course, you forgot to quote: "If anything can be learned from
>>this, there is power in actually articulating your dream setup, since
>>once you know what it would look like, you may actually find that making
>>it happen is easier than you think." Which is exactly what Linux
>>provides you. It's interesting to see how the same message can be used
>>to say one thing and it's contrary depending on the way you quote it.
>
> He's as dishonest as he is dumb.
>


-- 
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy 
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.”  —J.R.R. Tolkien

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#680262

On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 18:29:38 -0500, DFS wrote:

> "I will use Windows 7 or Mac OS interchangeably as desktops, and often
> surprise people when they find this out. I actually try to avoid using
> Linux on the desktop because it's a distraction from my focus, which is
> Linux userspace internals (non-GUI stuff.)"
> 
> 2012 interview https://usesthis.com/interviews/daniel.robbins/
> 
> 
> 
> Say it ain't so!

Some children born when that interview occurred have reached puberty by 
now.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#680320

Le 2024-12-14 à 18:29, DFS a écrit :
> 
> "I will use Windows 7 or Mac OS interchangeably as desktops, and often 
> surprise people when they find this out. I actually try to avoid using 
> Linux on the desktop because it's a distraction from my focus, which is 
> Linux userspace internals (non-GUI stuff.)"
> 
> 2012 interview
> https://usesthis.com/interviews/daniel.robbins/
> 
> 
> 
> Say it ain't so!

It's probably because like most Linux users, he ends up tinkering with 
the system rather than actually getting things done. All MacOS desktops 
more or less look the same but it doesn't matter because most Mac users 
see their machine as a tool to accomplish a task. With Windows, it's 
often the case too but there is always a distraction to keep people away 
from their work. With Linux, it seems to be nothing but distractions.

-- 
CrudeSausage

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#680469

On 2024-12-15, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
> Le 2024-12-14 à 18:29, DFS a écrit :
>> 
>> "I will use Windows 7 or Mac OS interchangeably as desktops, and often 
>> surprise people when they find this out. I actually try to avoid using 
>> Linux on the desktop because it's a distraction from my focus, which is 
>> Linux userspace internals (non-GUI stuff.)"
>> 
>> 2012 interview
>> https://usesthis.com/interviews/daniel.robbins/
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Say it ain't so!
>
> It's probably because like most Linux users, he ends up tinkering with 
> the system rather than actually getting things done. All MacOS desktops 
> more or less look the same but it doesn't matter because most Mac users 
> see their machine as a tool to accomplish a task. With Windows, it's 
> often the case too but there is always a distraction to keep people away 
> from their work. With Linux, it seems to be nothing but distractions.

Bullshit. I use Linux for the same things I used Windows for (when I still 
used Windows). Email, writing, streaming movies, some forums, OCR scanning, 
listening to music and using the for Internet news and research. What most 
people use their computers for at home. Linux is more efficient than either 
Windows or Macs (I know, I've tried both — both are crap in my opinion).

-- 
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy 
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.”  —J.R.R. Tolkien

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#680485

Le 2024-12-16 à 05:24, RonB a écrit :
> On 2024-12-15, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>> Le 2024-12-14 à 18:29, DFS a écrit :
>>>
>>> "I will use Windows 7 or Mac OS interchangeably as desktops, and often
>>> surprise people when they find this out. I actually try to avoid using
>>> Linux on the desktop because it's a distraction from my focus, which is
>>> Linux userspace internals (non-GUI stuff.)"
>>>
>>> 2012 interview
>>> https://usesthis.com/interviews/daniel.robbins/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Say it ain't so!
>>
>> It's probably because like most Linux users, he ends up tinkering with
>> the system rather than actually getting things done. All MacOS desktops
>> more or less look the same but it doesn't matter because most Mac users
>> see their machine as a tool to accomplish a task. With Windows, it's
>> often the case too but there is always a distraction to keep people away
>> from their work. With Linux, it seems to be nothing but distractions.
> 
> Bullshit. I use Linux for the same things I used Windows for (when I still
> used Windows). Email, writing, streaming movies, some forums, OCR scanning,
> listening to music and using the for Internet news and research. What most
> people use their computers for at home. Linux is more efficient than either
> Windows or Macs (I know, I've tried both — both are crap in my opinion).

Both operating systems have their distractions and I don't find myself 
any more productive under Linux than I do under Windows. If anything, I 
constantly have to spend time getting Linux to do the basic things 
Windows gets right out of the box. Even if I get it to work on Monday, 
an update might cause it to break on Tuesday necessitating a new kind of 
fix.

-- 
CrudeSausage

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#680558

On 2024-12-16, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
> Le 2024-12-16 à 05:24, RonB a écrit :
>> On 2024-12-15, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>> Le 2024-12-14 à 18:29, DFS a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> "I will use Windows 7 or Mac OS interchangeably as desktops, and often
>>>> surprise people when they find this out. I actually try to avoid using
>>>> Linux on the desktop because it's a distraction from my focus, which is
>>>> Linux userspace internals (non-GUI stuff.)"
>>>>
>>>> 2012 interview
>>>> https://usesthis.com/interviews/daniel.robbins/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Say it ain't so!
>>>
>>> It's probably because like most Linux users, he ends up tinkering with
>>> the system rather than actually getting things done. All MacOS desktops
>>> more or less look the same but it doesn't matter because most Mac users
>>> see their machine as a tool to accomplish a task. With Windows, it's
>>> often the case too but there is always a distraction to keep people away
>>> from their work. With Linux, it seems to be nothing but distractions.
>> 
>> Bullshit. I use Linux for the same things I used Windows for (when I still
>> used Windows). Email, writing, streaming movies, some forums, OCR scanning,
>> listening to music and using the for Internet news and research. What most
>> people use their computers for at home. Linux is more efficient than either
>> Windows or Macs (I know, I've tried both — both are crap in my opinion).
>
> Both operating systems have their distractions and I don't find myself 
> any more productive under Linux than I do under Windows. If anything, I 
> constantly have to spend time getting Linux to do the basic things 
> Windows gets right out of the box. Even if I get it to work on Monday, 
> an update might cause it to break on Tuesday necessitating a new kind of 
> fix.

I'm guessing this is because you have a whole lot more experience with 
Windows than with Linux. I don't have issues getting Linux to do "basic 
things." Not even sure what "basic things" you're talking about. 

I just spent about three hours getting my wife's desktop to boot and update 
to the newest Windows 11 update (which is why I suspect it locked up in the 
first place). Once I got Windows to boot (by disconnecting the hard drive 
and removing it from the "boot choice" in the BIOS — it took an hour and a 
half to download the update and install it — than about another ten minutes 
after rebooting... doing something or other. This is on a 10th generation 
Intel CPU, with 40 GBs of RAM, using an NVMe SSD, with an Internet speeds of 
about 650 Mbps. Heaven knows how long it would have taken with slower 
Internet, an older CPU and 8 GBs of RAM.

So, one of the "basic things" for me is being able to start and update the 
damn computer without it locking up and taking over an hour a half just to 
download and install an update. I have never had to deal with something like 
this in the 18 years I've been using Linux (except when supporting my 
family's Windows' machines).

-- 
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy 
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.”  —J.R.R. Tolkien

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#680571

Le 2024-12-17 à 03:01, RonB a écrit :
> On 2024-12-16, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>> Le 2024-12-16 à 05:24, RonB a écrit :
>>> On 2024-12-15, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>> Le 2024-12-14 à 18:29, DFS a écrit :
>>>>>
>>>>> "I will use Windows 7 or Mac OS interchangeably as desktops, and often
>>>>> surprise people when they find this out. I actually try to avoid using
>>>>> Linux on the desktop because it's a distraction from my focus, which is
>>>>> Linux userspace internals (non-GUI stuff.)"
>>>>>
>>>>> 2012 interview
>>>>> https://usesthis.com/interviews/daniel.robbins/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Say it ain't so!
>>>>
>>>> It's probably because like most Linux users, he ends up tinkering with
>>>> the system rather than actually getting things done. All MacOS desktops
>>>> more or less look the same but it doesn't matter because most Mac users
>>>> see their machine as a tool to accomplish a task. With Windows, it's
>>>> often the case too but there is always a distraction to keep people away
>>>> from their work. With Linux, it seems to be nothing but distractions.
>>>
>>> Bullshit. I use Linux for the same things I used Windows for (when I still
>>> used Windows). Email, writing, streaming movies, some forums, OCR scanning,
>>> listening to music and using the for Internet news and research. What most
>>> people use their computers for at home. Linux is more efficient than either
>>> Windows or Macs (I know, I've tried both — both are crap in my opinion).
>>
>> Both operating systems have their distractions and I don't find myself
>> any more productive under Linux than I do under Windows. If anything, I
>> constantly have to spend time getting Linux to do the basic things
>> Windows gets right out of the box. Even if I get it to work on Monday,
>> an update might cause it to break on Tuesday necessitating a new kind of
>> fix.
> 
> I'm guessing this is because you have a whole lot more experience with
> Windows than with Linux. I don't have issues getting Linux to do "basic
> things." Not even sure what "basic things" you're talking about.

Getting the hardware to work as it should from the moment you're done 
installing the operating system. A fresh installation of Windows does 
that. Linux comes close, but you will inevitably be forced to find 
workarounds for some of your hardware. On this PC in particular, there 
is no way to get the fingerprint reader to work, you won't get the audio 
to play at its highest potential volume, and you won't be able to use 
any of the advanced trackpad gestures. Apparently, it's possible to get 
the reader by overwriting the firmware and doing a bunch of other 
complicated junk in Arch alone, but there is no remedy for the sound and 
none of the desktop environments do too well with simple gestures like 
two-finger flick to the left or the right to go back or forward on 
webpages. They give you lots of gestures to do tons of other things like 
switching virtual desktops, but the most basic thing seems to elude them.

> I just spent about three hours getting my wife's desktop to boot and update
> to the newest Windows 11 update (which is why I suspect it locked up in the
> first place). Once I got Windows to boot (by disconnecting the hard drive
> and removing it from the "boot choice" in the BIOS — it took an hour and a
> half to download the update and install it — than about another ten minutes
> after rebooting... doing something or other. This is on a 10th generation
> Intel CPU, with 40 GBs of RAM, using an NVMe SSD, with an Internet speeds of
> about 650 Mbps. Heaven knows how long it would have taken with slower
> Internet, an older CPU and 8 GBs of RAM.

I wouldn't want to find out. If she doesn't update regularly as she 
should, I have no sympathy for the fact that she had to go through one 
long update which took hours. My wife is the same way and I don't bother 
to help her anymore since she keeps doing it to herself despite my warnings.

> So, one of the "basic things" for me is being able to start and update the
> damn computer without it locking up and taking over an hour a half just to
> download and install an update. I have never had to deal with something like
> this in the 18 years I've been using Linux (except when supporting my
> family's Windows' machines).

I admit that this isn't ideal. However, once that update completes, you 
know that your desktop will work as it should preserving all settings 
and software. I would rather that be the expectation and what Microsoft 
promises than the fast alternative requiring you to fix (if you're 
capable) a Linux installation or completely reinstall it. I'm sure that 
you've had nothing but good luck in eighteen years of using Linux since 
I have no reason to doubt your sincerity, but I've experienced way too 
many broken installations which crashed because some obscure library 
went from 0.32.8.1 to 0.32.8.2.


-- 
CrudeSausage

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#680620

On 2024-12-17, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
> Le 2024-12-17 à 03:01, RonB a écrit :
>> On 2024-12-16, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>> Le 2024-12-16 à 05:24, RonB a écrit :
>>>> On 2024-12-15, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>>> Le 2024-12-14 à 18:29, DFS a écrit :
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "I will use Windows 7 or Mac OS interchangeably as desktops, and often
>>>>>> surprise people when they find this out. I actually try to avoid using
>>>>>> Linux on the desktop because it's a distraction from my focus, which is
>>>>>> Linux userspace internals (non-GUI stuff.)"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2012 interview
>>>>>> https://usesthis.com/interviews/daniel.robbins/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Say it ain't so!
>>>>>
>>>>> It's probably because like most Linux users, he ends up tinkering with
>>>>> the system rather than actually getting things done. All MacOS desktops
>>>>> more or less look the same but it doesn't matter because most Mac users
>>>>> see their machine as a tool to accomplish a task. With Windows, it's
>>>>> often the case too but there is always a distraction to keep people away
>>>>> from their work. With Linux, it seems to be nothing but distractions.
>>>>
>>>> Bullshit. I use Linux for the same things I used Windows for (when I still
>>>> used Windows). Email, writing, streaming movies, some forums, OCR scanning,
>>>> listening to music and using the for Internet news and research. What most
>>>> people use their computers for at home. Linux is more efficient than either
>>>> Windows or Macs (I know, I've tried both — both are crap in my opinion).
>>>
>>> Both operating systems have their distractions and I don't find myself
>>> any more productive under Linux than I do under Windows. If anything, I
>>> constantly have to spend time getting Linux to do the basic things
>>> Windows gets right out of the box. Even if I get it to work on Monday,
>>> an update might cause it to break on Tuesday necessitating a new kind of
>>> fix.
>> 
>> I'm guessing this is because you have a whole lot more experience with
>> Windows than with Linux. I don't have issues getting Linux to do "basic
>> things." Not even sure what "basic things" you're talking about.
>
> Getting the hardware to work as it should from the moment you're done 
> installing the operating system. A fresh installation of Windows does 
> that. Linux comes close, but you will inevitably be forced to find 
> workarounds for some of your hardware. On this PC in particular, there 
> is no way to get the fingerprint reader to work, you won't get the audio 
> to play at its highest potential volume, and you won't be able to use 
> any of the advanced trackpad gestures. Apparently, it's possible to get 
> the reader by overwriting the firmware and doing a bunch of other 
> complicated junk in Arch alone, but there is no remedy for the sound and 
> none of the desktop environments do too well with simple gestures like 
> two-finger flick to the left or the right to go back or forward on 
> webpages. They give you lots of gestures to do tons of other things like 
> switching virtual desktops, but the most basic thing seems to elude them.

Your "experience" with Linux doesn't match mine. When I moved to Idaho to 
help care for my wife's aging parents, we traveled light. I had a laptop 
but I wanted to use a desktop. I bought one at the second hand store without 
a hard drive. I ran that computer on a Live Linux Mint USB for about two 
months, install took a couple minutes. Try that with Windows. Get back to me 
with your results.

As for fingerprint readers, specialized GPUs, etc., I can't say one way or 
the other. I don't use fingerprint readers (even where I have them), nor do 
I care about trackpad gestures. I get rid of tapping on my trackpads and 
want to use them for two things, moving cursor and scrolling.

As for sound, your problems with it are not mine. I guess there are 
advantages to using business machines as opposed to gaming machines. No 
issues with sound on my computers. No Arch ever needed. 

>> I just spent about three hours getting my wife's desktop to boot and update
>> to the newest Windows 11 update (which is why I suspect it locked up in the
>> first place). Once I got Windows to boot (by disconnecting the hard drive
>> and removing it from the "boot choice" in the BIOS — it took an hour and a
>> half to download the update and install it — than about another ten minutes
>> after rebooting... doing something or other. This is on a 10th generation
>> Intel CPU, with 40 GBs of RAM, using an NVMe SSD, with an Internet speeds of
>> about 650 Mbps. Heaven knows how long it would have taken with slower
>> Internet, an older CPU and 8 GBs of RAM.
>
> I wouldn't want to find out. If she doesn't update regularly as she 
> should, I have no sympathy for the fact that she had to go through one 
> long update which took hours. My wife is the same way and I don't bother 
> to help her anymore since she keeps doing it to herself despite my warnings.

Yes my wife does update when she's informed that one is necessary. This is 
just Windows being Windows. Microsoft's updates suck.

>> So, one of the "basic things" for me is being able to start and update the
>> damn computer without it locking up and taking over an hour a half just to
>> download and install an update. I have never had to deal with something like
>> this in the 18 years I've been using Linux (except when supporting my
>> family's Windows' machines).
>
> I admit that this isn't ideal. However, once that update completes, you 
> know that your desktop will work as it should preserving all settings 
> and software. I would rather that be the expectation and what Microsoft 
> promises than the fast alternative requiring you to fix (if you're 
> capable) a Linux installation or completely reinstall it. I'm sure that 
> you've had nothing but good luck in eighteen years of using Linux since 
> I have no reason to doubt your sincerity, but I've experienced way too 
> many broken installations which crashed because some obscure library 
> went from 0.32.8.1 to 0.32.8.2.

No you don't know that. (Maybe more so now then in the past, I don't know.) 
My wife has had BSODs after updates. And didn't a recent application update 
kill Windows machines with BSODs all over the world? 

As I've mentioned now (several times) I've never had a single Linux update 
fail. Just to see if it would work, I recently upgraded a 2007 Dell Latitude 
D430 from Linux Mint 18.2 to Linux Mint 21 — without rebuilding anything. 
This required three major point upgrades (18 to 19, 19 to 20 and 20 to 21) 
and three minor point updates (from 18.2 to 18.3, 19 to 19.3, 20 to 20.3). 
This took hours (mostly while I was doing other things in the background), 
but it was done. The D430 runs on 2 GBs of memory (its maximum) and uses an 
old Core 2 Duo CPU.

Since I KNOW this works (I don't go by what I read from Windows FUDsters) I 
KNOW that all these supposed issues with Linux upgrades are BS. That said, 
would I do this on a regular basis? No. It's fast an easy to back up your 
data, and rebuild your computer with Linux. Takes about a half an hour 
total. (Try that on Windows.)

-- 
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy 
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.”  —J.R.R. Tolkien

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#680649

Le 2024-12-17 à 15:25, RonB a écrit :

>> Getting the hardware to work as it should from the moment you're done
>> installing the operating system. A fresh installation of Windows does
>> that. Linux comes close, but you will inevitably be forced to find
>> workarounds for some of your hardware. On this PC in particular, there
>> is no way to get the fingerprint reader to work, you won't get the audio
>> to play at its highest potential volume, and you won't be able to use
>> any of the advanced trackpad gestures. Apparently, it's possible to get
>> the reader by overwriting the firmware and doing a bunch of other
>> complicated junk in Arch alone, but there is no remedy for the sound and
>> none of the desktop environments do too well with simple gestures like
>> two-finger flick to the left or the right to go back or forward on
>> webpages. They give you lots of gestures to do tons of other things like
>> switching virtual desktops, but the most basic thing seems to elude them.
> 
> Your "experience" with Linux doesn't match mine. When I moved to Idaho to
> help care for my wife's aging parents, we traveled light. I had a laptop
> but I wanted to use a desktop. I bought one at the second hand store without
> a hard drive. I ran that computer on a Live Linux Mint USB for about two
> months, install took a couple minutes. Try that with Windows. Get back to me
> with your results.

Part of enabling hardware encryption on Windows requires you to use 
Windows To Go in much the way you would Linux on a LiveUSB stick. It's 
doable, but Microsoft doesn't give you a direct way of creating such an 
installation the way that Linux does. I'll say this much: I do believe 
that you ran a live Linux environment for months rather comfortably and 
that the installation took little time. That's definitely a strength of 
the operating system.

> As for fingerprint readers, specialized GPUs, etc., I can't say one way or
> the other. I don't use fingerprint readers (even where I have them), nor do
> I care about trackpad gestures. I get rid of tapping on my trackpads and
> want to use them for two things, moving cursor and scrolling.
> 
> As for sound, your problems with it are not mine. I guess there are
> advantages to using business machines as opposed to gaming machines. No
> issues with sound on my computers. No Arch ever needed.

The sound chip uses something called Dolby Atmos in Windows. Without it, 
the sound is no different in Windows than it would be in Linux. With it, 
the volume is augmented and you can set it up for the type of sound you 
are using. It increases the sound without causing crackling and it is 
definitely a feature people aren't likely to want to sacrifice. As for 
the fingerprint reader, the issue stems from the manufacturer doing 
nothing to open its hardware for open-source developers. However, 
manufacturers have no obligation to support Linux and they aren't 
compensated in any way if they decide to.

>>> I just spent about three hours getting my wife's desktop to boot and update
>>> to the newest Windows 11 update (which is why I suspect it locked up in the
>>> first place). Once I got Windows to boot (by disconnecting the hard drive
>>> and removing it from the "boot choice" in the BIOS — it took an hour and a
>>> half to download the update and install it — than about another ten minutes
>>> after rebooting... doing something or other. This is on a 10th generation
>>> Intel CPU, with 40 GBs of RAM, using an NVMe SSD, with an Internet speeds of
>>> about 650 Mbps. Heaven knows how long it would have taken with slower
>>> Internet, an older CPU and 8 GBs of RAM.
>>
>> I wouldn't want to find out. If she doesn't update regularly as she
>> should, I have no sympathy for the fact that she had to go through one
>> long update which took hours. My wife is the same way and I don't bother
>> to help her anymore since she keeps doing it to herself despite my warnings.
> 
> Yes my wife does update when she's informed that one is necessary. This is
> just Windows being Windows. Microsoft's updates suck.

I can't say that I like them either, but 11's are definitely better than 
10. The fact that it essentially reinstalls the operating system on big 
updates is a bonus for me since it cleans out the crap. It's obviously 
much slower than a Linux one, but I don't dislike it.

>>> So, one of the "basic things" for me is being able to start and update the
>>> damn computer without it locking up and taking over an hour a half just to
>>> download and install an update. I have never had to deal with something like
>>> this in the 18 years I've been using Linux (except when supporting my
>>> family's Windows' machines).
>>
>> I admit that this isn't ideal. However, once that update completes, you
>> know that your desktop will work as it should preserving all settings
>> and software. I would rather that be the expectation and what Microsoft
>> promises than the fast alternative requiring you to fix (if you're
>> capable) a Linux installation or completely reinstall it. I'm sure that
>> you've had nothing but good luck in eighteen years of using Linux since
>> I have no reason to doubt your sincerity, but I've experienced way too
>> many broken installations which crashed because some obscure library
>> went from 0.32.8.1 to 0.32.8.2.
> 
> No you don't know that. (Maybe more so now then in the past, I don't know.)
> My wife has had BSODs after updates. And didn't a recent application update
> kill Windows machines with BSODs all over the world?
> 
> As I've mentioned now (several times) I've never had a single Linux update
> fail. Just to see if it would work, I recently upgraded a 2007 Dell Latitude
> D430 from Linux Mint 18.2 to Linux Mint 21 — without rebuilding anything.
> This required three major point upgrades (18 to 19, 19 to 20 and 20 to 21)
> and three minor point updates (from 18.2 to 18.3, 19 to 19.3, 20 to 20.3).
> This took hours (mostly while I was doing other things in the background),
> but it was done. The D430 runs on 2 GBs of memory (its maximum) and uses an
> old Core 2 Duo CPU.
> 
> Since I KNOW this works (I don't go by what I read from Windows FUDsters) I
> KNOW that all these supposed issues with Linux upgrades are BS. That said,
> would I do this on a regular basis? No. It's fast an easy to back up your
> data, and rebuild your computer with Linux. Takes about a half an hour
> total. (Try that on Windows.)

Good points either way.

-- 
CrudeSausage

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#680683

On 2024-12-17, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
> Le 2024-12-17 à 15:25, RonB a écrit :
>
>>> Getting the hardware to work as it should from the moment you're done
>>> installing the operating system. A fresh installation of Windows does
>>> that. Linux comes close, but you will inevitably be forced to find
>>> workarounds for some of your hardware. On this PC in particular, there
>>> is no way to get the fingerprint reader to work, you won't get the audio
>>> to play at its highest potential volume, and you won't be able to use
>>> any of the advanced trackpad gestures. Apparently, it's possible to get
>>> the reader by overwriting the firmware and doing a bunch of other
>>> complicated junk in Arch alone, but there is no remedy for the sound and
>>> none of the desktop environments do too well with simple gestures like
>>> two-finger flick to the left or the right to go back or forward on
>>> webpages. They give you lots of gestures to do tons of other things like
>>> switching virtual desktops, but the most basic thing seems to elude them.
>> 
>> Your "experience" with Linux doesn't match mine. When I moved to Idaho to
>> help care for my wife's aging parents, we traveled light. I had a laptop
>> but I wanted to use a desktop. I bought one at the second hand store without
>> a hard drive. I ran that computer on a Live Linux Mint USB for about two
>> months, install took a couple minutes. Try that with Windows. Get back to me
>> with your results.
>
> Part of enabling hardware encryption on Windows requires you to use 
> Windows To Go in much the way you would Linux on a LiveUSB stick. It's 
> doable, but Microsoft doesn't give you a direct way of creating such an 
> installation the way that Linux does. I'll say this much: I do believe 
> that you ran a live Linux environment for months rather comfortably and 
> that the installation took little time. That's definitely a strength of 
> the operating system.
>
>> As for fingerprint readers, specialized GPUs, etc., I can't say one way or
>> the other. I don't use fingerprint readers (even where I have them), nor do
>> I care about trackpad gestures. I get rid of tapping on my trackpads and
>> want to use them for two things, moving cursor and scrolling.
>> 
>> As for sound, your problems with it are not mine. I guess there are
>> advantages to using business machines as opposed to gaming machines. No
>> issues with sound on my computers. No Arch ever needed.
>
> The sound chip uses something called Dolby Atmos in Windows. Without it, 
> the sound is no different in Windows than it would be in Linux. With it, 
> the volume is augmented and you can set it up for the type of sound you 
> are using. It increases the sound without causing crackling and it is 
> definitely a feature people aren't likely to want to sacrifice. As for 
> the fingerprint reader, the issue stems from the manufacturer doing 
> nothing to open its hardware for open-source developers. However, 
> manufacturers have no obligation to support Linux and they aren't 
> compensated in any way if they decide to.

Maybe my computers don't have this "Dolby Atmos" because I can't tell any 
difference between Windows and Linux when I play music on the same computer. 
I know I don't have any crackling (as it would drive me nuts).

I realize that a lot of people like the fingerprint reader, but I saw how 
these could be used to steal your identity (right when they first came out) 
and I decided I never wanted to use them.

>>>> I just spent about three hours getting my wife's desktop to boot and update
>>>> to the newest Windows 11 update (which is why I suspect it locked up in the
>>>> first place). Once I got Windows to boot (by disconnecting the hard drive
>>>> and removing it from the "boot choice" in the BIOS — it took an hour and a
>>>> half to download the update and install it — than about another ten minutes
>>>> after rebooting... doing something or other. This is on a 10th generation
>>>> Intel CPU, with 40 GBs of RAM, using an NVMe SSD, with an Internet speeds of
>>>> about 650 Mbps. Heaven knows how long it would have taken with slower
>>>> Internet, an older CPU and 8 GBs of RAM.
>>>
>>> I wouldn't want to find out. If she doesn't update regularly as she
>>> should, I have no sympathy for the fact that she had to go through one
>>> long update which took hours. My wife is the same way and I don't bother
>>> to help her anymore since she keeps doing it to herself despite my warnings.
>> 
>> Yes my wife does update when she's informed that one is necessary. This is
>> just Windows being Windows. Microsoft's updates suck.
>
> I can't say that I like them either, but 11's are definitely better than 
> 10. The fact that it essentially reinstalls the operating system on big 
> updates is a bonus for me since it cleans out the crap. It's obviously 
> much slower than a Linux one, but I don't dislike it.

I've updated Windows 11 a couple times and do think, generally, it's better 
than Windows 10. So I'll give you that. Still take way too long, though.

>>>> So, one of the "basic things" for me is being able to start and update the
>>>> damn computer without it locking up and taking over an hour a half just to
>>>> download and install an update. I have never had to deal with something like
>>>> this in the 18 years I've been using Linux (except when supporting my
>>>> family's Windows' machines).
>>>
>>> I admit that this isn't ideal. However, once that update completes, you
>>> know that your desktop will work as it should preserving all settings
>>> and software. I would rather that be the expectation and what Microsoft
>>> promises than the fast alternative requiring you to fix (if you're
>>> capable) a Linux installation or completely reinstall it. I'm sure that
>>> you've had nothing but good luck in eighteen years of using Linux since
>>> I have no reason to doubt your sincerity, but I've experienced way too
>>> many broken installations which crashed because some obscure library
>>> went from 0.32.8.1 to 0.32.8.2.
>> 
>> No you don't know that. (Maybe more so now then in the past, I don't know.)
>> My wife has had BSODs after updates. And didn't a recent application update
>> kill Windows machines with BSODs all over the world?
>> 
>> As I've mentioned now (several times) I've never had a single Linux update
>> fail. Just to see if it would work, I recently upgraded a 2007 Dell Latitude
>> D430 from Linux Mint 18.2 to Linux Mint 21 — without rebuilding anything.
>> This required three major point upgrades (18 to 19, 19 to 20 and 20 to 21)
>> and three minor point updates (from 18.2 to 18.3, 19 to 19.3, 20 to 20.3).
>> This took hours (mostly while I was doing other things in the background),
>> but it was done. The D430 runs on 2 GBs of memory (its maximum) and uses an
>> old Core 2 Duo CPU.
>> 
>> Since I KNOW this works (I don't go by what I read from Windows FUDsters) I
>> KNOW that all these supposed issues with Linux upgrades are BS. That said,
>> would I do this on a regular basis? No. It's fast an easy to back up your
>> data, and rebuild your computer with Linux. Takes about a half an hour
>> total. (Try that on Windows.)
>
> Good points either way.

-- 
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy 
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.”  —J.R.R. Tolkien

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#680699

Le 2024-12-18 à 05:59, RonB a écrit :
> On 2024-12-17, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>> Le 2024-12-17 à 15:25, RonB a écrit :
>>
>>>> Getting the hardware to work as it should from the moment you're done
>>>> installing the operating system. A fresh installation of Windows does
>>>> that. Linux comes close, but you will inevitably be forced to find
>>>> workarounds for some of your hardware. On this PC in particular, there
>>>> is no way to get the fingerprint reader to work, you won't get the audio
>>>> to play at its highest potential volume, and you won't be able to use
>>>> any of the advanced trackpad gestures. Apparently, it's possible to get
>>>> the reader by overwriting the firmware and doing a bunch of other
>>>> complicated junk in Arch alone, but there is no remedy for the sound and
>>>> none of the desktop environments do too well with simple gestures like
>>>> two-finger flick to the left or the right to go back or forward on
>>>> webpages. They give you lots of gestures to do tons of other things like
>>>> switching virtual desktops, but the most basic thing seems to elude them.
>>>
>>> Your "experience" with Linux doesn't match mine. When I moved to Idaho to
>>> help care for my wife's aging parents, we traveled light. I had a laptop
>>> but I wanted to use a desktop. I bought one at the second hand store without
>>> a hard drive. I ran that computer on a Live Linux Mint USB for about two
>>> months, install took a couple minutes. Try that with Windows. Get back to me
>>> with your results.
>>
>> Part of enabling hardware encryption on Windows requires you to use
>> Windows To Go in much the way you would Linux on a LiveUSB stick. It's
>> doable, but Microsoft doesn't give you a direct way of creating such an
>> installation the way that Linux does. I'll say this much: I do believe
>> that you ran a live Linux environment for months rather comfortably and
>> that the installation took little time. That's definitely a strength of
>> the operating system.
>>
>>> As for fingerprint readers, specialized GPUs, etc., I can't say one way or
>>> the other. I don't use fingerprint readers (even where I have them), nor do
>>> I care about trackpad gestures. I get rid of tapping on my trackpads and
>>> want to use them for two things, moving cursor and scrolling.
>>>
>>> As for sound, your problems with it are not mine. I guess there are
>>> advantages to using business machines as opposed to gaming machines. No
>>> issues with sound on my computers. No Arch ever needed.
>>
>> The sound chip uses something called Dolby Atmos in Windows. Without it,
>> the sound is no different in Windows than it would be in Linux. With it,
>> the volume is augmented and you can set it up for the type of sound you
>> are using. It increases the sound without causing crackling and it is
>> definitely a feature people aren't likely to want to sacrifice. As for
>> the fingerprint reader, the issue stems from the manufacturer doing
>> nothing to open its hardware for open-source developers. However,
>> manufacturers have no obligation to support Linux and they aren't
>> compensated in any way if they decide to.
> 
> Maybe my computers don't have this "Dolby Atmos" because I can't tell any
> difference between Windows and Linux when I play music on the same computer.
> I know I don't have any crackling (as it would drive me nuts).

You would have to have this exact machine to see the difference in sound 
quality between Windows and Linux. Windows is louder and demonstrates 
the full potential of the speakers; Linux sounds good but it quieter.

> I realize that a lot of people like the fingerprint reader, but I saw how
> these could be used to steal your identity (right when they first came out)
> and I decided I never wanted to use them.

I agree that it would be trivial to get into the machine of a user if 
logging in requires nothing more than a fingerprint. I mean, you can 
just force his finger onto the reader and away you go. It is, however, 
very convenient if there are protections on every component you use. For 
example, I have a password to log in but I also have one to open the 
BitWarden vault, I then require a password/one-time password/key/key 
password to enter my e-mail, and that's without mentioning that the 
whole drive is protected by hardware encryption. If you can simplify 
some of it through the use of a fingerprint, you will.

>>> Yes my wife does update when she's informed that one is necessary. This is
>>> just Windows being Windows. Microsoft's updates suck.
>>
>> I can't say that I like them either, but 11's are definitely better than
>> 10. The fact that it essentially reinstalls the operating system on big
>> updates is a bonus for me since it cleans out the crap. It's obviously
>> much slower than a Linux one, but I don't dislike it.
> 
> I've updated Windows 11 a couple times and do think, generally, it's better
> than Windows 10. So I'll give you that. Still take way too long, though.

For me, Windows 10 was worse than 8 or 8.1. I truly do feel that while 
the 8.x line was a mess, it performed well since the code was no worse 
than 7 which was stellar. 10, however, is the result of Microsoft 
deciding to make more use of the things people hated about 8.x and 
presenting them differently. Obviously, there were going to be a lot of 
issues. Had 11 never come to be or if my hardware were such that I would 
have to make the decision between using Linux or sticking to 10, I would 
gladly just use Linux. I hated 10 that much.

< snip >

-- 
CrudeSausage

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#680763

On 2024-12-18, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
> Le 2024-12-18 à 05:59, RonB a écrit :
>> On 2024-12-17, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>> Le 2024-12-17 à 15:25, RonB a écrit :
>>>
>>>>> Getting the hardware to work as it should from the moment you're done
>>>>> installing the operating system. A fresh installation of Windows does
>>>>> that. Linux comes close, but you will inevitably be forced to find
>>>>> workarounds for some of your hardware. On this PC in particular, there
>>>>> is no way to get the fingerprint reader to work, you won't get the audio
>>>>> to play at its highest potential volume, and you won't be able to use
>>>>> any of the advanced trackpad gestures. Apparently, it's possible to get
>>>>> the reader by overwriting the firmware and doing a bunch of other
>>>>> complicated junk in Arch alone, but there is no remedy for the sound and
>>>>> none of the desktop environments do too well with simple gestures like
>>>>> two-finger flick to the left or the right to go back or forward on
>>>>> webpages. They give you lots of gestures to do tons of other things like
>>>>> switching virtual desktops, but the most basic thing seems to elude them.
>>>>
>>>> Your "experience" with Linux doesn't match mine. When I moved to Idaho to
>>>> help care for my wife's aging parents, we traveled light. I had a laptop
>>>> but I wanted to use a desktop. I bought one at the second hand store without
>>>> a hard drive. I ran that computer on a Live Linux Mint USB for about two
>>>> months, install took a couple minutes. Try that with Windows. Get back to me
>>>> with your results.
>>>
>>> Part of enabling hardware encryption on Windows requires you to use
>>> Windows To Go in much the way you would Linux on a LiveUSB stick. It's
>>> doable, but Microsoft doesn't give you a direct way of creating such an
>>> installation the way that Linux does. I'll say this much: I do believe
>>> that you ran a live Linux environment for months rather comfortably and
>>> that the installation took little time. That's definitely a strength of
>>> the operating system.
>>>
>>>> As for fingerprint readers, specialized GPUs, etc., I can't say one way or
>>>> the other. I don't use fingerprint readers (even where I have them), nor do
>>>> I care about trackpad gestures. I get rid of tapping on my trackpads and
>>>> want to use them for two things, moving cursor and scrolling.
>>>>
>>>> As for sound, your problems with it are not mine. I guess there are
>>>> advantages to using business machines as opposed to gaming machines. No
>>>> issues with sound on my computers. No Arch ever needed.
>>>
>>> The sound chip uses something called Dolby Atmos in Windows. Without it,
>>> the sound is no different in Windows than it would be in Linux. With it,
>>> the volume is augmented and you can set it up for the type of sound you
>>> are using. It increases the sound without causing crackling and it is
>>> definitely a feature people aren't likely to want to sacrifice. As for
>>> the fingerprint reader, the issue stems from the manufacturer doing
>>> nothing to open its hardware for open-source developers. However,
>>> manufacturers have no obligation to support Linux and they aren't
>>> compensated in any way if they decide to.
>> 
>> Maybe my computers don't have this "Dolby Atmos" because I can't tell any
>> difference between Windows and Linux when I play music on the same computer.
>> I know I don't have any crackling (as it would drive me nuts).
>
> You would have to have this exact machine to see the difference in sound 
> quality between Windows and Linux. Windows is louder and demonstrates 
> the full potential of the speakers; Linux sounds good but it quieter.

I do have the exact machine as I've tested when dual-booting on the same 
computer.

>> I realize that a lot of people like the fingerprint reader, but I saw how
>> these could be used to steal your identity (right when they first came out)
>> and I decided I never wanted to use them.
>
> I agree that it would be trivial to get into the machine of a user if 
> logging in requires nothing more than a fingerprint. I mean, you can 
> just force his finger onto the reader and away you go. It is, however, 
> very convenient if there are protections on every component you use. For 
> example, I have a password to log in but I also have one to open the 
> BitWarden vault, I then require a password/one-time password/key/key 
> password to enter my e-mail, and that's without mentioning that the 
> whole drive is protected by hardware encryption. If you can simplify 
> some of it through the use of a fingerprint, you will.

I'm thinking more of stealing your fingerprint for other uses.

>>>> Yes my wife does update when she's informed that one is necessary. This is
>>>> just Windows being Windows. Microsoft's updates suck.
>>>
>>> I can't say that I like them either, but 11's are definitely better than
>>> 10. The fact that it essentially reinstalls the operating system on big
>>> updates is a bonus for me since it cleans out the crap. It's obviously
>>> much slower than a Linux one, but I don't dislike it.
>> 
>> I've updated Windows 11 a couple times and do think, generally, it's better
>> than Windows 10. So I'll give you that. Still take way too long, though.
>
> For me, Windows 10 was worse than 8 or 8.1. I truly do feel that while 
> the 8.x line was a mess, it performed well since the code was no worse 
> than 7 which was stellar. 10, however, is the result of Microsoft 
> deciding to make more use of the things people hated about 8.x and 
> presenting them differently. Obviously, there were going to be a lot of 
> issues. Had 11 never come to be or if my hardware were such that I would 
> have to make the decision between using Linux or sticking to 10, I would 
> gladly just use Linux. I hated 10 that much.
>
>< snip >

I don't know much about any of these versions of Windows as I basically quit 
using Windows when XP was going to be updated to Vista. I really don't like 
any of them.

-- 
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy 
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.”  —J.R.R. Tolkien

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#680786

Le 2024-12-19 à 02:45, RonB a écrit :

>>> Maybe my computers don't have this "Dolby Atmos" because I can't tell any
>>> difference between Windows and Linux when I play music on the same computer.
>>> I know I don't have any crackling (as it would drive me nuts).
>>
>> You would have to have this exact machine to see the difference in sound
>> quality between Windows and Linux. Windows is louder and demonstrates
>> the full potential of the speakers; Linux sounds good but it quieter.
> 
> I do have the exact machine as I've tested when dual-booting on the same
> computer.

I meant you'd have to use my laptop to see how different it is in Linux 
and Windows as it relates to sound.

>>> I realize that a lot of people like the fingerprint reader, but I saw how
>>> these could be used to steal your identity (right when they first came out)
>>> and I decided I never wanted to use them.
>>
>> I agree that it would be trivial to get into the machine of a user if
>> logging in requires nothing more than a fingerprint. I mean, you can
>> just force his finger onto the reader and away you go. It is, however,
>> very convenient if there are protections on every component you use. For
>> example, I have a password to log in but I also have one to open the
>> BitWarden vault, I then require a password/one-time password/key/key
>> password to enter my e-mail, and that's without mentioning that the
>> whole drive is protected by hardware encryption. If you can simplify
>> some of it through the use of a fingerprint, you will.
> 
> I'm thinking more of stealing your fingerprint for other uses.

Where Windows stores the fingerprints is fairly well known. However, the 
fingerprint itself is encrypted within those files. I imagine that such 
things don't matter and that anyone who has those files would be able to 
use them to log in anyway, but reports of that happening haven't emerged.

>>> I've updated Windows 11 a couple times and do think, generally, it's better
>>> than Windows 10. So I'll give you that. Still take way too long, though.
>>
>> For me, Windows 10 was worse than 8 or 8.1. I truly do feel that while
>> the 8.x line was a mess, it performed well since the code was no worse
>> than 7 which was stellar. 10, however, is the result of Microsoft
>> deciding to make more use of the things people hated about 8.x and
>> presenting them differently. Obviously, there were going to be a lot of
>> issues. Had 11 never come to be or if my hardware were such that I would
>> have to make the decision between using Linux or sticking to 10, I would
>> gladly just use Linux. I hated 10 that much.
>>
>> < snip >
> 
> I don't know much about any of these versions of Windows as I basically quit
> using Windows when XP was going to be updated to Vista. I really don't like
> any of them.

It's a good thing you never used the beta versions of Vista. Those were 
absolutely horrendous. When I got the e-mail telling me that the 
operating system was being released to manufacturers, I was shocked 
because I felt that it was nowhere near ready.

-- 
CrudeSausage

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