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[CM] Favorable review of Cinnamon desktop

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  [CM] Favorable review of Cinnamon desktop RS Wood  <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2015-06-16 14:08 +0000
    Re: [CM] Favorable review of Cinnamon desktop Jon Danniken <jonSPAMdanniken@yaSMPAhoo.com> - 2015-06-16 13:57 -0700
      Re: [CM] Favorable review of Cinnamon desktop RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2015-06-17 08:58 +0300
        Re: [CM] Favorable review of Cinnamon desktop Jon Danniken <jonSPAMdanniken@yaSMPAhoo.com> - 2015-06-17 05:42 -0700
          Re: [CM] Favorable review of Cinnamon desktop "Dirk T. Verbeek" <dverbeek@xs4all.nl> - 2015-06-18 13:46 +0200
            Re: [CM] Favorable review of Cinnamon desktop "J.B.Treadstone" <jbt@dev.nul> - 2015-06-18 13:29 +0100
              Re: [CM] Favorable review of Cinnamon desktop "Dirk T. Verbeek" <dverbeek@xs4all.nl> - 2015-06-18 21:07 +0200
                Re: [CM] Favorable review of Cinnamon desktop "J.B.Treadstone" <jbt@dev.nul> - 2015-06-18 23:37 +0100
                  Re: [CM] Favorable review of Cinnamon desktop "Dirk T. Verbeek" <dverbeek@xs4all.nl> - 2015-06-20 21:23 +0200
            Re: [CM] Favorable review of Cinnamon desktop Jon Danniken <jonSPAMdanniken@yaSMPAhoo.com> - 2015-06-18 06:17 -0700
              Re: [CM] Favorable review of Cinnamon desktop Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2015-06-18 16:34 +0000
                Re: [CM] Favorable review of Cinnamon desktop Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2015-06-18 13:43 -0400
              Re: [CM] Favorable review of Cinnamon desktop "Dirk T. Verbeek" <dverbeek@xs4all.nl> - 2015-06-18 21:12 +0200
                Re: [CM] Favorable review of Cinnamon desktop Jon Danniken <jonSPAMdanniken@yaSMPAhoo.com> - 2015-06-18 13:47 -0700
                  Re: [CM] Favorable review of Cinnamon desktop Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2015-06-18 14:46 -0700
            Re: [CM] Favorable review of Cinnamon desktop The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2015-06-19 11:20 +0100
          Re: [CM] Favorable review of Cinnamon desktop Johnny B Good <johnny-b-good@invalid.ntlworld.com> - 2015-06-18 23:14 +0000
            Re: [CM] Favorable review of Cinnamon desktop Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2015-06-18 16:42 -0700
            Re: [CM] Favorable review of Cinnamon desktop The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2015-06-19 11:52 +0100
        Re: [CM] Favorable review of Cinnamon desktop Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2015-06-18 13:56 +0300

#7940 — [CM] Favorable review of Cinnamon desktop

From the «minty cinnamonny goodness» department:
Title: Cinnamon 2.6 – a Linux desktop for Windows XP refugees
Author: Gavin Clarke
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2015 07:42:08 -0400
Link: http://go.theregister.com/feed/www.theregister.co.uk/2015/06/16/cinnamon_2_6_review/

Dual monitor support, better panels, and improvements in speed

Review  Cinnamon is best known as one of the two default desktops for Linux
Mint, which is fast approaching its next major update. Mint 17.2 will include
the brand new Cinnamon 2.6, just released, when delivered later this year.…



--
Posting to comp.misc, sci.misc, and misc.news.internet.discuss

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#7946

On 06/16/2015 07:08 AM, RS Wood wrote:
> From the «minty cinnamonny goodness» department:
> Title: Cinnamon 2.6 – a Linux desktop for Windows XP refugees
> Author: Gavin Clarke
> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2015 07:42:08 -0400
> Link: http://go.theregister.com/feed/www.theregister.co.uk/2015/06/16/cinnamon_2_6_review/
> 
> Dual monitor support, better panels, and improvements in speed
> 
> Review  Cinnamon is best known as one of the two default desktops for Linux
> Mint, which is fast approaching its next major update. Mint 17.2 will include
> the brand new Cinnamon 2.6, just released, when delivered later this year.…

Considering how badly KDE screwed the pooch with KDE5/Plasma5, it's nice
to see that Cinnamon is stepping up to fill the gap.

Jon

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#7947

Jon Danniken <jonSPAMdanniken@yaSMPAhoo.com> writes:

>> the brand new Cinnamon 2.6, just released, when delivered later 
   this year.…

> Considering how badly KDE screwed the pooch with KDE5/Plasma5, 
  it's nice
> to see that Cinnamon is stepping up to fill the gap.
>
> Jon

Is it as bad as that?  I haven't tried it yet since I'm on a 
distro where I've now got everything working the way I'd like, and 
I don't want to upgrade and have to go through it all again.  I'm 
used to hearing how they botched the upgrade to KDE4, but I hadn't 
heard they'd botched the upgrade to KDE5.  

I was actually thinking, a lot of what they're promoting as new 
features are things that KDE4 (at least) had ages ago, like the 
ability to have multiple panels, or put the panels where you want 
them on the screen.

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#7950

On 06/16/2015 10:58 PM, RS Wood wrote:
> Jon Danniken <jonSPAMdanniken@yaSMPAhoo.com> writes:
> 
>>> the brand new Cinnamon 2.6, just released, when delivered later 
>   this year.…
> 
>> Considering how badly KDE screwed the pooch with KDE5/Plasma5, 
>  it's nice
>> to see that Cinnamon is stepping up to fill the gap.
>>
>> Jon
> 
> Is it as bad as that?  I haven't tried it yet since I'm on a distro
> where I've now got everything working the way I'd like, and I don't want
> to upgrade and have to go through it all again.  I'm used to hearing how
> they botched the upgrade to KDE4, but I hadn't heard they'd botched the
> upgrade to KDE5. 
> I was actually thinking, a lot of what they're promoting as new features
> are things that KDE4 (at least) had ages ago, like the ability to have
> multiple panels, or put the panels where you want them on the screen.

In the classic application launcher (AKA "kicker"), there is no way to
disable the search field.  If you previously accessed items in your
application menu by using the first letter of the entries, you're out of
luck because the search field always takes focus, and there is no way to
disable it.

I gave it a try in the new Fedora22 and was thoroughly unimpressed.
They also got rid of the Oxygen theme, leaving only a scant few themes,
all of which use huge padding and overly large fonts.

They basically went with the look of a smartphone instead of sticking
with the functionality of a classic PC, destroying accessibility along
the way.

Jon

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#7955

Op 17-06-15 om 14:42 schreef Jon Danniken:
> On 06/16/2015 10:58 PM, RS Wood wrote:
>> Jon Danniken <jonSPAMdanniken@yaSMPAhoo.com> writes:
>>
>>>> the brand new Cinnamon 2.6, just released, when delivered later
>>    this year.…
>>
>>> Considering how badly KDE screwed the pooch with KDE5/Plasma5,
>>   it's nice
>>> to see that Cinnamon is stepping up to fill the gap.
>>>
>>> Jon
>>
>> Is it as bad as that?  I haven't tried it yet since I'm on a distro
>> where I've now got everything working the way I'd like, and I don't want
>> to upgrade and have to go through it all again.  I'm used to hearing how
>> they botched the upgrade to KDE4, but I hadn't heard they'd botched the
>> upgrade to KDE5.
>> I was actually thinking, a lot of what they're promoting as new features
>> are things that KDE4 (at least) had ages ago, like the ability to have
>> multiple panels, or put the panels where you want them on the screen.
>
> In the classic application launcher (AKA "kicker"), there is no way to
> disable the search field.  If you previously accessed items in your
> application menu by using the first letter of the entries, you're out of
> luck because the search field always takes focus, and there is no way to
> disable it.
>
So who cares? I type an f and Firefox and FileZilla show up to pick from.

> I gave it a try in the new Fedora22 and was thoroughly unimpressed.
> They also got rid of the Oxygen theme, leaving only a scant few themes,
> all of which use huge padding and overly large fonts.
I don't know about Fedora but Oxygen is there in Kubuntu.
>
> They basically went with the look of a smartphone instead of sticking
> with the functionality of a classic PC, destroying accessibility along
> the way.
Thanks for comparing Fedora KDE with Kubuntu.
>
Now I do agree KDE5/ Plasma5 leaves to be desired, quite a few core 
applications like Gwenview, QuickLaunch and Dolphin are not yet ported 
to Plasma5 giving regular compatibility problems and missing options.

So those lucky enough to still run Kubuntu 14.04 are better off to 
continue using it at lest till the next release in October.

Or do like I always do and have the latest release as a separate 
install, dual or triple booting is easy and it gives you the opportunity 
to get used to the newer systems and hand in bug reports without losing 
usability.

> Jon
>

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#7956

On Thu, 18 Jun 2015 13:46:25 +0200, Dirk T. Verbeek wrote:

> Op 17-06-15 om 14:42 schreef Jon Danniken:
>> On 06/16/2015 10:58 PM, RS Wood wrote:
>>> Jon Danniken <jonSPAMdanniken@yaSMPAhoo.com> writes:
>>>
>>>>> the brand new Cinnamon 2.6, just released, when delivered later
>>>    this year.…
>>>
>>>> Considering how badly KDE screwed the pooch with KDE5/Plasma5,
>>>   it's nice
>>>> to see that Cinnamon is stepping up to fill the gap.
>>>>
>>>> Jon
>>>
>>> Is it as bad as that?  I haven't tried it yet since I'm on a distro
>>> where I've now got everything working the way I'd like, and I don't
>>> want to upgrade and have to go through it all again.  I'm used to
>>> hearing how they botched the upgrade to KDE4, but I hadn't heard they'd
>>> botched the upgrade to KDE5.
>>> I was actually thinking, a lot of what they're promoting as new
>>> features are things that KDE4 (at least) had ages ago, like the ability
>>> to have multiple panels, or put the panels where you want them on the
>>> screen.
>>
>> In the classic application launcher (AKA "kicker"), there is no way to
>> disable the search field.  If you previously accessed items in your
>> application menu by using the first letter of the entries, you're out of
>> luck because the search field always takes focus, and there is no way to
>> disable it.
>>
> So who cares? I type an f and Firefox and FileZilla show up to pick from.
> 
>> I gave it a try in the new Fedora22 and was thoroughly unimpressed. They
>> also got rid of the Oxygen theme, leaving only a scant few themes, all
>> of which use huge padding and overly large fonts.
> I don't know about Fedora but Oxygen is there in Kubuntu.
>>
>> They basically went with the look of a smartphone instead of sticking
>> with the functionality of a classic PC, destroying accessibility along
>> the way.
> Thanks for comparing Fedora KDE with Kubuntu.
>>
> Now I do agree KDE5/ Plasma5 leaves to be desired, quite a few core
> applications like Gwenview, QuickLaunch and Dolphin are not yet ported to
> Plasma5 giving regular compatibility problems and missing options.

Also, you can't have different desktop wallpapers, like you can in KDE
4.14.x. A feature which, IMHO, helped distinguished KDE from other
desktops. https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=341143

> So those lucky enough to still run Kubuntu 14.04 are better off to
> continue using it at lest till the next release in October.
> 
> Or do like I always do and have the latest release as a separate install,
> dual or triple booting is easy and it gives you the opportunity to get
> used to the newer systems and hand in bug reports without losing
> usability.
> 
>> Jon

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#7960

Op 18-06-15 om 14:29 schreef J.B.Treadstone:
> Also, you can't have different desktop wallpapers, like you can in KDE
> 4.14.x. A feature which, IMHO, helped distinguished KDE from other
> desktops.https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=341143
The difference between KDE and would-be desktops, in KDE this regression 
is seen as a bug, in others as a feature.

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#7965

On Thu, 18 Jun 2015 21:07:14 +0200, Dirk T. Verbeek wrote:

> Op 18-06-15 om 14:29 schreef J.B.Treadstone:
>> Also, you can't have different desktop wallpapers, like you can in KDE
>> 4.14.x. A feature which, IMHO, helped distinguished KDE from other
>> desktops.https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=341143
> The difference between KDE and would-be desktops, in KDE this regression
> is seen as a bug, in others as a feature.

It was originally reported as a bug, but it seems that it was done
/deliberately/.
<q>
yes, the feature has been removed and due to the huge problem and added
complexity it gave, is not going back.
<uq>
-- Marco Martin --

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#7972

Op 19-06-15 om 00:37 schreef J.B.Treadstone:
> On Thu, 18 Jun 2015 21:07:14 +0200, Dirk T. Verbeek wrote:
>
>> Op 18-06-15 om 14:29 schreef J.B.Treadstone:
>>> Also, you can't have different desktop wallpapers, like you can in KDE
>>> 4.14.x. A feature which, IMHO, helped distinguished KDE from other
>>> desktops.https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=341143
>> The difference between KDE and would-be desktops, in KDE this regression
>> is seen as a bug, in others as a feature.
>
> It was originally reported as a bug, but it seems that it was done
> /deliberately/.
> <q>
> yes, the feature has been removed and due to the huge problem and added
> complexity it gave, is not going back.
> <uq>
> -- Marco Martin --
>
Patience young man!

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#7957

On 06/18/2015 04:46 AM, Dirk T. Verbeek wrote:
>
>> In the classic application launcher (AKA "kicker"), there is no way to
>> disable the search field.  If you previously accessed items in your
>> application menu by using the first letter of the entries, you're out of
>> luck because the search field always takes focus, and there is no way to
>> disable it.
>>
> So who cares? I type an f and Firefox and FileZilla show up to pick from.

Previously, you hit the application launcher key, then the first letter
of the application, and it opens up.

Currently, as per your observation, you hit the application launcher
key, then the first letter of the application (which goes into the
search field), then you have to choose the application and hit enter.
Multiple keystrokes that have to be entered multiple times a day,
whereas before it was a simple two-key access.

The point here is that KDE is going down the same road that MS went
down, ie changing the user interface and not giving the user any option
to retain the same interface that they find perfectly acceptable.

Some people need to type into a search field and choose from the
available options, others, like myself, are able to learn keystroke
combinations, or *gasp* actually look at the cascading menu list of
applications that are available.

Forcing a search field in the application menu is the height of
arrogance and stupidity, similar to what KDE did in the past with
forcing baloo on users.

Jon

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#7958

In comp.misc Jon Danniken <jonSPAMdanniken@yasmpahoo.com> wrote:
> On 06/18/2015 04:46 AM, Dirk T. Verbeek wrote:
> >
> >> In the classic application launcher (AKA "kicker"), there is no
> >> way to disable the search field.  If you previously accessed items
> >> in your application menu by using the first letter of the entries,
> >> you're out of luck because the search field always takes focus,
> >> and there is no way to disable it.
> >>
> > So who cares? I type an f and Firefox and FileZilla show up to pick
> > from.

> Previously, you hit the application launcher key, then the first
> letter of the application, and it opens up.

> Currently, as per your observation, you hit the application launcher
> key, then the first letter of the application (which goes into the
> search field), then you have to choose the application and hit enter.
> Multiple keystrokes that have to be entered multiple times a day,
> whereas before it was a simple two-key access.

> The point here is that KDE is going down the same road that MS went
> down, ie changing the user interface and not giving the user any
> option to retain the same interface that they find perfectly
> acceptable.

Then don't use KDE.  I've had the same set of keyboard first letter
keys for app. launch in Fvwm2 for going on near 20 years now, across
four different physical computers and about 6-8 different Slackware
version installs.  The only thing that has changed about the menu
layout has been my adding, or removing, an occasional entry.  One
keystroke to pop open the Fvwm2 menu, one keystroke for eacho the most
common apps. I want to pop open.

> Some people need to type into a search field and choose from the
> available options, others, like myself, are able to learn keystroke
> combinations, or *gasp* actually look at the cascading menu list of
> applications that are available.

> Forcing a search field in the application menu is the height of
> arrogance and stupidity, similar to what KDE did in the past with
> forcing baloo on users.

Agreed.  So stop using things such as KDE and instead go with a proper
X window manager where you fully control the configuration, not the
'upstream dreamers' controlling it for you.

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#7959

Rich <rich@example.invalid> writes:

> In comp.misc Jon Danniken <jonSPAMdanniken@yasmpahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 06/18/2015 04:46 AM, Dirk T. Verbeek wrote:
>> >
>> >> In the classic application launcher (AKA "kicker"), there is no
>> >> way to disable the search field.  If you previously accessed items
>> >> in your application menu by using the first letter of the entries,
>> >> you're out of luck because the search field always takes focus,
>> >> and there is no way to disable it.
>> >>
>> > So who cares? I type an f and Firefox and FileZilla show up to pick
>> > from.
>
>> Previously, you hit the application launcher key, then the first
>> letter of the application, and it opens up.
>
>> Currently, as per your observation, you hit the application launcher
>> key, then the first letter of the application (which goes into the
>> search field), then you have to choose the application and hit enter.
>> Multiple keystrokes that have to be entered multiple times a day,
>> whereas before it was a simple two-key access.
>
>> The point here is that KDE is going down the same road that MS went
>> down, ie changing the user interface and not giving the user any
>> option to retain the same interface that they find perfectly
>> acceptable.
>
> Then don't use KDE.  I've had the same set of keyboard first letter
> keys for app. launch in Fvwm2 for going on near 20 years now, across
> four different physical computers and about 6-8 different Slackware
> version installs.  The only thing that has changed about the menu
> layout has been my adding, or removing, an occasional entry.  One
> keystroke to pop open the Fvwm2 menu, one keystroke for eacho the most
> common apps. I want to pop open.

Those Fvwm keystrokes are so embedded in my fingers, my biggest problem
is trying to remember when I'm on Windows.  I try to make them similar
but many things on Windows are just not possible.

Like you, my desktop hasn't changed since the late 90s.
It's just the way I want it.  Fvwm will never do a release
that changes how an existing users setup looks or works.

I often marvel at other users complaining about how the latest
release of what they are using has changed.  Why things change
with the config files remaining the same confuses me.

Nothing should change unless you ask it to.

Recently I was looking at Fvwm menus and I noticed how you
navigate through them with the arrow keys.
So, I decided, I sometimes have to use the arrow keys to
navigate, why don't I bind the arrow keys on the root
to invoking the menus.  So, I've bound all 4 keys on the
arrow keypad to bringing up menus.

Up -> Window Operations
Down -> Master Menu
Left -> Systems
Right -> Utilities

Not happy with that arrangement, because there is no logic
to it. but good enough.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#7961

Op 18-06-15 om 15:17 schreef Jon Danniken:
> On 06/18/2015 04:46 AM, Dirk T. Verbeek wrote:
>>
>>> In the classic application launcher (AKA "kicker"), there is no way to
>>> disable the search field.  If you previously accessed items in your
>>> application menu by using the first letter of the entries, you're out of
>>> luck because the search field always takes focus, and there is no way to
>>> disable it.
>>>
>> So who cares? I type an f and Firefox and FileZilla show up to pick from.
>
> Previously, you hit the application launcher key, then the first letter
> of the application, and it opens up.
>
> Currently, as per your observation, you hit the application launcher
> key, then the first letter of the application (which goes into the
> search field), then you have to choose the application and hit enter.
> Multiple keystrokes that have to be entered multiple times a day,
> whereas before it was a simple two-key access.
>
> The point here is that KDE is going down the same road that MS went
> down, ie changing the user interface and not giving the user any option
> to retain the same interface that they find perfectly acceptable.
>
> Some people need to type into a search field and choose from the
> available options, others, like myself, are able to learn keystroke
> combinations, or *gasp* actually look at the cascading menu list of
> applications that are available.
>
> Forcing a search field in the application menu is the height of
> arrogance and stupidity, similar to what KDE did in the past with
> forcing baloo on users.
>
> Jon
>

I don't even consider clicking or opening the Kicker for a standard program.
For years I've assigned global shortcuts.
Like for Firefox it is META+N (yes from the days of Netscape),
for Dolphin it's META+D and for Thunderbird META+T.

But, knowing KDE this regression will eventually be fixed.

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#7962

On 06/18/2015 12:12 PM, Dirk T. Verbeek wrote:
> Op 18-06-15 om 15:17 schreef Jon Danniken:
>>
>> Previously, you hit the application launcher key, then the first letter
>> of the application, and it opens up.
>>
>> Currently, as per your observation, you hit the application launcher
>> key, then the first letter of the application (which goes into the
>> search field), then you have to choose the application and hit enter.
>> Multiple keystrokes that have to be entered multiple times a day,
>> whereas before it was a simple two-key access.
>>
>> The point here is that KDE is going down the same road that MS went
>> down, ie changing the user interface and not giving the user any option
>> to retain the same interface that they find perfectly acceptable.
>>
>> Some people need to type into a search field and choose from the
>> available options, others, like myself, are able to learn keystroke
>> combinations, or *gasp* actually look at the cascading menu list of
>> applications that are available.
>>
>> Forcing a search field in the application menu is the height of
>> arrogance and stupidity, similar to what KDE did in the past with
>> forcing baloo on users.
>>
>> Jon
>>
> 
> I don't even consider clicking or opening the Kicker for a standard
> program.
> For years I've assigned global shortcuts.
> Like for Firefox it is META+N (yes from the days of Netscape),
> for Dolphin it's META+D and for Thunderbird META+T.

Yes, I also have a number of global shortcuts set up, maybe a half dozen
or so.  Still, there are several dozen programs that I still access
through the application menu/kicker, programs that I maybe don't use all
that often, but which I still generally know the keystrokes to get to
it.  The search field kills that interface for me.

> But, knowing KDE this regression will eventually be fixed.

I hope you're right Dirk, but I'm not going to hold my breath.  At least
for something like Cinnamon there is an optional application menu one
can download from github (https://github.com/lestcape/Configurable-Menu
- but I don't know if it is navigable from the keyboard), and likewise
for MS products you can install "ClassicShell" to bring back the same
functionality that most of us have taken for granted for what is coming
up to be the last 20 years.

Why KDE decided to drop the ball on this, forcing the search field and
not including the classic option, is beyond me.

Jon

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#7964

On 06/18/2015 01:47 PM, Jon Danniken wrote:
> On 06/18/2015 12:12 PM, Dirk T. Verbeek wrote:
>> Op 18-06-15 om 15:17 schreef Jon Danniken:
>>>
>>> Previously, you hit the application launcher key, then the first letter
>>> of the application, and it opens up.
>>>
>>> Currently, as per your observation, you hit the application launcher
>>> key, then the first letter of the application (which goes into the
>>> search field), then you have to choose the application and hit enter.
>>> Multiple keystrokes that have to be entered multiple times a day,
>>> whereas before it was a simple two-key access.
>>>
>>> The point here is that KDE is going down the same road that MS went
>>> down, ie changing the user interface and not giving the user any option
>>> to retain the same interface that they find perfectly acceptable.
>>>
>>> Some people need to type into a search field and choose from the
>>> available options, others, like myself, are able to learn keystroke
>>> combinations, or *gasp* actually look at the cascading menu list of
>>> applications that are available.
>>>
>>> Forcing a search field in the application menu is the height of
>>> arrogance and stupidity, similar to what KDE did in the past with
>>> forcing baloo on users.
>>>
>>> Jon
>>>
>>
>> I don't even consider clicking or opening the Kicker for a standard
>> program.
>> For years I've assigned global shortcuts.
>> Like for Firefox it is META+N (yes from the days of Netscape),
>> for Dolphin it's META+D and for Thunderbird META+T.
>
> Yes, I also have a number of global shortcuts set up, maybe a half dozen
> or so.  Still, there are several dozen programs that I still access
> through the application menu/kicker, programs that I maybe don't use all
> that often, but which I still generally know the keystrokes to get to
> it.  The search field kills that interface for me.
>
>> But, knowing KDE this regression will eventually be fixed.
>
> I hope you're right Dirk, but I'm not going to hold my breath.  At least
> for something like Cinnamon there is an optional application menu one
> can download from github (https://github.com/lestcape/Configurable-Menu
> - but I don't know if it is navigable from the keyboard), and likewise
> for MS products you can install "ClassicShell" to bring back the same
> functionality that most of us have taken for granted for what is coming
> up to be the last 20 years.
>
> Why KDE decided to drop the ball on this, forcing the search field and
> not including the classic option, is beyond me.
>
> Jon
>
	I have seen the classic menu option in all distributions using
KDE/Plasma 5.  But the structure of KDE with so many atomic programs
has to be updated across the board before you will have all the
functionality that you are used to.

	Mageia 5 did not go to Plasma 5 because its users will have
enough problems with the rest of the updated programs and materials.
I am very annoyed with a KDE distro that fails to include a clock
from which the date and/or time can be copied.  I was annoyed by
that in KDE 4.x when it showed up that way and was being forced
down our throats at that time.

	But eventually the clock got fixed and eventually
I am sure that the clock in KDE/PLasma 5 will be usable again.

	bliss

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#7970

On 18/06/15 12:46, Dirk T. Verbeek wrote:
> Op 17-06-15 om 14:42 schreef Jon Danniken:
>> On 06/16/2015 10:58 PM, RS Wood wrote:
>>> Jon Danniken <jonSPAMdanniken@yaSMPAhoo.com> writes:
>>>
>>>>> the brand new Cinnamon 2.6, just released, when delivered later
>>>    this year.…
>>>
>>>> Considering how badly KDE screwed the pooch with KDE5/Plasma5,
>>>   it's nice
>>>> to see that Cinnamon is stepping up to fill the gap.
>>>>
>>>> Jon
>>>
>>> Is it as bad as that?  I haven't tried it yet since I'm on a distro
>>> where I've now got everything working the way I'd like, and I don't want
>>> to upgrade and have to go through it all again.  I'm used to hearing how
>>> they botched the upgrade to KDE4, but I hadn't heard they'd botched the
>>> upgrade to KDE5.
>>> I was actually thinking, a lot of what they're promoting as new features
>>> are things that KDE4 (at least) had ages ago, like the ability to have
>>> multiple panels, or put the panels where you want them on the screen.
>>
>> In the classic application launcher (AKA "kicker"), there is no way to
>> disable the search field.  If you previously accessed items in your
>> application menu by using the first letter of the entries, you're out of
>> luck because the search field always takes focus, and there is no way to
>> disable it.
>>
> So who cares?

People who don't do whatht you are about to say care..

> I type an f and Firefox and FileZilla show up to pick from.
>
>> I gave it a try in the new Fedora22 and was thoroughly unimpressed.
>> They also got rid of the Oxygen theme, leaving only a scant few themes,
>> all of which use huge padding and overly large fonts.
> I don't know about Fedora but Oxygen is there in Kubuntu.
>>
>> They basically went with the look of a smartphone instead of sticking
>> with the functionality of a classic PC, destroying accessibility along
>> the way.
> Thanks for comparing Fedora KDE with Kubuntu.
>>
> Now I do agree KDE5/ Plasma5 leaves to be desired, quite a few core
> applications like Gwenview, QuickLaunch and Dolphin are not yet ported
> to Plasma5 giving regular compatibility problems and missing options.
>
> So those lucky enough to still run Kubuntu 14.04 are better off to
> continue using it at lest till the next release in October.
>
> Or do like I always do and have the latest release as a separate
> install, dual or triple booting is easy and it gives you the opportunity
> to get used to the newer systems and hand in bug reports without losing
> usability.
>

Well exactly.  I have scrap systems that I insatall new stuff on when 
its time to make a move, and then I can see what they do and dont do.

>> Jon
>>
>


-- 
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in 
the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in 
someone else's pocket.

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#7967

On Wed, 17 Jun 2015 05:42:07 -0700, Jon Danniken wrote:

> On 06/16/2015 10:58 PM, RS Wood wrote:
>> Jon Danniken <jonSPAMdanniken@yaSMPAhoo.com> writes:
>> 
>>>> the brand new Cinnamon 2.6, just released, when delivered later
>>   this year.…
>> 
>>> Considering how badly KDE screwed the pooch with KDE5/Plasma5,
>>  it's nice
>>> to see that Cinnamon is stepping up to fill the gap.
>>>
>>> Jon
>> 
>> Is it as bad as that?  I haven't tried it yet since I'm on a distro
>> where I've now got everything working the way I'd like, and I don't
>> want to upgrade and have to go through it all again.  I'm used to
>> hearing how they botched the upgrade to KDE4, but I hadn't heard they'd
>> botched the upgrade to KDE5.
>> I was actually thinking, a lot of what they're promoting as new
>> features are things that KDE4 (at least) had ages ago, like the ability
>> to have multiple panels, or put the panels where you want them on the
>> screen.
> 
> In the classic application launcher (AKA "kicker"), there is no way to
> disable the search field.  If you previously accessed items in your
> application menu by using the first letter of the entries, you're out of
> luck because the search field always takes focus, and there is no way to
> disable it.
> 
> I gave it a try in the new Fedora22 and was thoroughly unimpressed. They
> also got rid of the Oxygen theme, leaving only a scant few themes, all
> of which use huge padding and overly large fonts.
> 
> They basically went with the look of a smartphone instead of sticking
> with the functionality of a classic PC, destroying accessibility along
> the way.
> 

 If by "classic PC" you're referring to the epitome of desktop 
environments exemplified by Microsoft's windows 95 and windows 2000 
'classic desktop' then I'm in basic agreement with you.

 Just because it was Microsoft who came up with "The Classic Desktop", 
that's no excuse for the *nix devs to treat it like "The Elephant in The 
Room" and totally ignore all of its good features. Almost certainly, 
Microsoft didn't 'clean room' invent the desktop paradigm. At the very 
least, they'd have 'borrowed' ideas (if not outright stole them) from 
others' design efforts (just like Apple).

 The decline in usability of the windows desktop GUI became swiftly 
apparent once Microsoft had decided to attack the consumer market in 
earnest with the launch of windows XP and it's been a downhill ride ever 
since for the user. :-(


-- 
Johnny B Good

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#7968

On 06/18/2015 04:14 PM, Johnny B Good wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jun 2015 05:42:07 -0700, Jon Danniken wrote:
>
>> On 06/16/2015 10:58 PM, RS Wood wrote:
>>> Jon Danniken <jonSPAMdanniken@yaSMPAhoo.com> writes:
>>>
>>>>> the brand new Cinnamon 2.6, just released, when delivered later
>>>    this year.…
>>>
>>>> Considering how badly KDE screwed the pooch with KDE5/Plasma5,
>>>   it's nice
>>>> to see that Cinnamon is stepping up to fill the gap.
>>>>
>>>> Jon
>>>
>>> Is it as bad as that?  I haven't tried it yet since I'm on a distro
>>> where I've now got everything working the way I'd like, and I don't
>>> want to upgrade and have to go through it all again.  I'm used to
>>> hearing how they botched the upgrade to KDE4, but I hadn't heard they'd
>>> botched the upgrade to KDE5.
>>> I was actually thinking, a lot of what they're promoting as new
>>> features are things that KDE4 (at least) had ages ago, like the ability
>>> to have multiple panels, or put the panels where you want them on the
>>> screen.
>>
>> In the classic application launcher (AKA "kicker"), there is no way to
>> disable the search field.  If you previously accessed items in your
>> application menu by using the first letter of the entries, you're out of
>> luck because the search field always takes focus, and there is no way to
>> disable it.
>>
>> I gave it a try in the new Fedora22 and was thoroughly unimpressed. They
>> also got rid of the Oxygen theme, leaving only a scant few themes, all
>> of which use huge padding and overly large fonts.
>>
>> They basically went with the look of a smartphone instead of sticking
>> with the functionality of a classic PC, destroying accessibility along
>> the way.
>>
>
>   If by "classic PC" you're referring to the epitome of desktop
> environments exemplified by Microsoft's windows 95 and windows 2000
> 'classic desktop' then I'm in basic agreement with you.
>
>   Just because it was Microsoft who came up with "The Classic Desktop",
> that's no excuse for the *nix devs to treat it like "The Elephant in The
> Room" and totally ignore all of its good features. Almost certainly,
> Microsoft didn't 'clean room' invent the desktop paradigm. At the very
> least, they'd have 'borrowed' ideas (if not outright stole them) from
> others' design efforts (just like Apple).
>
>   The decline in usability of the windows desktop GUI became swiftly
> apparent once Microsoft had decided to attack the consumer market in
> earnest with the launch of windows XP and it's been a downhill ride ever
> since for the user. :-(
>
>
	Microsoft stole from Apple  and Apple stole from Xerox PARC.
	But Jay Miner and his crew synthesized what software features
they wanted on the Amiga and organized the hardware to permit that.
	GNU/Linux/KDE/Gnome/et al synthesized a lot of what went before
and built it to run on whatever hardware they could access, with FOSS.

	The only reason to look down on Microsoft and Apple is because
they never gave recognition to the source of the WIMP.  Oh and
Apple & MS stole color computing from the Amiga. Good thing that
they did or all we would have is tremendously expensive video cards
or monochrome.

	bliss

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#7971

On 19/06/15 00:14, Johnny B Good wrote:
>   Just because it was Microsoft who came up with "The Classic Desktop",
> that's no excuse for the *nix devs to treat it like "The Elephant in The
> Room" and totally ignore all of its good features. Almost certainly,
> Microsoft didn't 'clean room' invent the desktop paradigm. At the very
> least, they'd have 'borrowed' ideas (if not outright stole them) from
> others' design efforts (just like Apple).
>
>   The decline in usability of the windows desktop GUI became swiftly
> apparent once Microsoft had decided to attack the consumer market in
> earnest with the launch of windows XP and it's been a downhill ride ever
> since for the user.:-(

Very well said. The nice thing about Linux is we have half a dozen plus 
desktop and window managers to try and we do not get constrained into 
what Microsoft or Apple choose to give us access to, but can tailor the 
desktop to the way we find it most natural to work.

And that is very much the differentiation between a consumer product, 
where one manual covers 'how it works' and a professional product where 
'the manual tells you how to make it work the way you want to'.

As you so rightly say, MS is a consumer product that is just about 
usable in a professional environment, but Linux is a professional 
product that is just about usable by consumers if 'nailed down' in a 
MATE/CINNAMON default sort of way.

The great thing about MATE and CINNAMON is how accessible they are out 
of the box to someone used to an XP paradigm. But they are not 
restricted to that, for power users.

I happen to be reasonably happy with most of the XP paradigm... but I 
like to go beyond it as well.

Others who have a radically different way of working prefer other 
desktops/WMs.

The joy of Linux is that they can have them. Cinnamon isn't for 
everyone, but its is bliss for some.

Personally I am sti8ll using MATE, but that's a very fine choice wrt to 
CINNAMON.



-- 
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in 
the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in 
someone else's pocket.

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#7954

RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> writes:

> Jon Danniken <jonSPAMdanniken@yaSMPAhoo.com> writes:
>
>>> the brand new Cinnamon 2.6, just released, when delivered later 
>   this year.…
>
>> Considering how badly KDE screwed the pooch with KDE5/Plasma5, 
>  it's nice
>> to see that Cinnamon is stepping up to fill the gap.
>>
>> Jon
>
> Is it as bad as that?

I was also wondering the same, I'm running Kubuntu 14.10 on an oldish
Thinkpad X201 and things work pretty good. I tried booting a live
Kubuntu 15.04 which has KDE5 to see what it's like.

I dunno, it doesn't feel like much has changed. Different theme and I
like it. Maybe a little more polish. Some texts are a little large like
in the networking setup popup. On the other hand, Konsole defaults to a
pretty small font. But consistent UX is hardly a thing in Linux.

Well, something went wrong and now my live system (with persistence) is
pretty crashy. Just the kde parts so can't do much any more :( I guess I
have to wipe the persistent part or just go ahead and upgrade. Granted,
unetbootin which I used to create my USB stick from the ISO image didn't
claim to have support for Kubuntu 15.10...

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