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McDonald's Kiosk failure

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  McDonald's Kiosk failure Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2019-03-28 15:48 +1100
    Re: McDonald's Kiosk failure mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> - 2019-03-28 07:37 +0000
      Re: McDonald's Kiosk failure Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2019-03-31 00:19 +0000
        Re: McDonald's Kiosk failure Adrian Caspersz <email@here.invalid> - 2019-04-01 18:16 +0100
          Re: McDonald's Kiosk failure Adrian Caspersz <email@here.invalid> - 2019-04-01 18:18 +0100
          Re: McDonald's Kiosk failure Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2019-04-01 18:02 +0000
            Re: McDonald's Kiosk failure Adrian Caspersz <email@here.invalid> - 2019-04-03 13:37 +0100
              Re: McDonald's Kiosk failure Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2019-04-04 01:20 +0000
          Re: McDonald's Kiosk failure Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2019-04-04 20:57 +0000
    Re: McDonald's Kiosk failure Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2019-03-28 08:27 +0000
      Re: McDonald's Kiosk failure Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2019-03-28 22:55 +1100
    Re: McDonald's Kiosk failure Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2019-03-28 08:39 +0000
      Re: McDonald's Kiosk failure Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2019-03-28 22:56 +1100
    Re: McDonald's Kiosk failure Adrian Caspersz <email@here.invalid> - 2019-03-28 10:43 +0000
      Re: McDonald's Kiosk failure Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2019-03-28 23:00 +1100
        Re: McDonald's Kiosk failure Adrian Caspersz <email@here.invalid> - 2019-03-28 12:38 +0000
          Re: McDonald's Kiosk failure Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2019-03-28 23:47 +1100
        Re: McDonald's Kiosk failure kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) - 2019-03-28 10:02 -0400
          Re: McDonald's Kiosk failure Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2019-03-28 14:17 +0000
          Re: McDonald's Kiosk failure Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2019-03-28 14:30 +0000
        Re: McDonald's Kiosk failure Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2019-03-28 15:30 +0000
    Re: McDonald's Kiosk failure Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2019-03-28 09:45 -0400
      Re: McDonald's Kiosk failure Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2019-03-28 14:18 +0000
        Re: McDonald's Kiosk failure Adrian Caspersz <email@here.invalid> - 2019-03-28 16:21 +0000

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#17647 — McDonald's Kiosk failure

My local Maccas was temporarily unable to take orders today because 
there was some kind of upstream network failure. I took this photograph 
of one of their kiosks.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lsmg6ux84svt2ne/WindowsCrash.jpg?dl=0

What does this image tell us?

1. McDonald's is using Windows to run a system that takes orders for 
burgers and coffee.

2. Said system cannot handle an upstream failure without crashing due to 
problem with a driver.

3. The driver appears to be related to the touch screen.

<https://www.scribd.com/document/254188226/Elo-Touch-Solutions-Multi-Touch-Driver-User-Manual-6-4-0>

4. Somehow, and upstream failure can break a touch screen driver.

The mind boggles.

Sylvia.

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#17648

On 28/03/2019 04:48, Sylvia Else wrote:
> My local Maccas was temporarily unable to take orders today because
> there was some kind of upstream network failure. I took this photograph
> of one of their kiosks.
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/lsmg6ux84svt2ne/WindowsCrash.jpg?dl=0
>
> What does this image tell us?
>
> 1. McDonald's is using Windows to run a system that takes orders for
> burgers and coffee.
>
> 2. Said system cannot handle an upstream failure without crashing due to
> problem with a driver.
>
> 3. The driver appears to be related to the touch screen.
>
> <https://www.scribd.com/document/254188226/Elo-Touch-Solutions-Multi-Touch-Driver-User-Manual-6-4-0>
>
>
> 4. Somehow, and upstream failure can break a touch screen driver.
>
> The mind boggles.
>
> Sylvia.
>
>
>
You have yet to show that there isn't a hardware failure causing an 
issue in the driver. Shouldn't happen, the driver should be able to cope.

When you've got this mob to clean up the USB drivers I'll send you a 
list of all the USB drivers that fail miserably and kill the Linux 
kernel. You can work on getting them to work better with hardware failures.

'tis not a Windows issue. 'tis a crap software issue.

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#17710

On 2019-03-28, mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> wrote:
> 'tis not a Windows issue. 'tis a crap software issue.

What is a Windows issue encounted just a couple of days ago: Windows
10 thinks there is no internet connection, but there is. Chrome and
other internet program work fine, but Windows shows the little yellow
exclamation mark and "no internet" in the system tray. Newly-installed
Office 365 (installed over the "no internet" connection) can't phone
home because Windows thinks there is no internet, even though there is,
and threatens to shutter in a few days. Computer owner is bouncing off
the walls because "Microsoft is not working."

In other words, just another typical day in the big city working with
crap Microsoft products.

This wasn't my computer, thank goodness, because I haven't used
Microsoft's garbage on my own systems in over 20 years. (Of course there
is plenty of crap to be found in FOSS but at least it's crap you don't
have to pay for.)

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Roger Blake (Posts from Google Groups killfiled due to excess spam.)

  NSA sedition and treason        -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
  Don't talk to cops!             -- http://www.DontTalkToCops.com
  Badges don't grant extra rights -- http://www.CopBlock.org
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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#17719

On 31/03/2019 00:19, Roger Blake wrote:
> On 2019-03-28, mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> wrote:
>> 'tis not a Windows issue. 'tis a crap software issue.
> 
> What is a Windows issue encounted just a couple of days ago: Windows
> 10 thinks there is no internet connection, but there is. Chrome and
> other internet program work fine, but Windows shows the little yellow
> exclamation mark and "no internet" in the system tray. Newly-installed
> Office 365 (installed over the "no internet" connection) can't phone
> home because Windows thinks there is no internet, even though there is,
> and threatens to shutter in a few days. Computer owner is bouncing off
> the walls because "Microsoft is not working."
> 

Your router is not forwarding a valid DNS resolver service (normally run 
by your ISP), or Windows networking has been static configured with the 
IP of one that isn't valid.

Chrome is using it's own DNS resolver service (8.8.8.8 & 8.8.4.4) and 
your other internet applications have their own connectivity - direct IP 
which may not require DNS.

This is not a Windows specific issue, all systems can suffer the same 
misconfiguration.


-- 
Adrian C

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#17720

On 01/04/2019 18:16, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
> 
> Chrome is using it's 

s/it's/its

-- 
Adrian C

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#17721

On 2019-04-01, Adrian Caspersz <email@here.invalid> wrote:
> This is not a Windows specific issue, all systems can suffer the same 
> misconfiguration.

The PC is using the ISP's DNS servers the same as the others in that office. 
(Checked via "ipconfig /all" -- all are using the same configuration.)

As it is the only one in that facility currently experiencing this
problem, and I have seen similar problems on other Windows systems, I
would say it is very much a Windows-specific issue.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Roger Blake (Posts from Google Groups killfiled due to excess spam.)

  NSA sedition and treason        -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
  Don't talk to cops!             -- http://www.DontTalkToCops.com
  Badges don't grant extra rights -- http://www.CopBlock.org
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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#17736

On 01/04/2019 19:02, Roger Blake wrote:
> On 2019-04-01, Adrian Caspersz <email@here.invalid> wrote:
>> This is not a Windows specific issue, all systems can suffer the same
>> misconfiguration.
> 
> The PC is using the ISP's DNS servers the same as the others in that offic > (Checked via "ipconfig /all" -- all are using the same configuration.)
> 
Try diagnosing the issue - nslookup,  wiresharking port 53, etc ...

> As it is the only one in that facility currently experiencing this
> problem, and I have seen similar problems on other Windows systems, I
> would say it is very much a Windows-specific issue.

Ah Windows, you should said! - must be a malware DNS hijack :-p

-- 
Adrian C

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#17745

On 2019-04-03, Adrian Caspersz <email@here.invalid> wrote:
> Try diagnosing the issue - nslookup,  wiresharking port 53, etc ...

After checking that DNS and HTTP access were working properly but no joy
it was quicker and easier to do the standard Windows repair: wipe and reload.
(This was a case where there was little on the machine so it was quick
and painless.)

If you do a web search on terms such as "Windows says there is no
internet but there is" (likewise for Office 365) you will find a lot of
people having similar problems, with dozens of different proposed "fixes."
So it is a fairly common issue.

I tried a few reported fixes, even checked that the test site MS uses was
accessible, but nothing worked. Reload was the quickest and easiest way
to deal with it.

The root cause seems to be a braindead algorithm Microsoft uses to
determine if the PC is online that can fail even when there is a perfectly
good internet connection present.

Pretty typical Microsoft stuff - everything else works over the internet
but Windows and Office will sit there stubbornly telling you that it is
offline. Utter and complete crap software.

> Ah Windows, you should said! - must be a malware DNS hijack :-p

I don't think so. :) As mentioned, MS's web page used for the online
test - www.msftncsi.com - resolved properly through DNS and the
http://www.msftncsi.com/ncsi.txt test page came come up in all web
browsers. Despite this Windows and Office still insisted there was no
internet connection.

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Roger Blake (Posts from Google Groups killfiled due to excess spam.)

  NSA sedition and treason        -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
  Don't talk to cops!             -- http://www.DontTalkToCops.com
  Badges don't grant extra rights -- http://www.CopBlock.org
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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#17755

In comp.misc, Adrian Caspersz  <email@here.invalid> wrote:
> Your router is not forwarding a valid DNS resolver service (normally run 
> by your ISP), or Windows networking has been static configured with the 
> IP of one that isn't valid.
> 
> Chrome is using it's own DNS resolver service (8.8.8.8 & 8.8.4.4) and 
> your other internet applications have their own connectivity - direct IP 
> which may not require DNS.

Does Chrome really do that? (I do not have Chrome installed to test.)
There are far too many cases in the business world where internal DNS
and external DNS are vastly different for that sort of thing to be safe.
Maybe as a fallback if local DNS times out, but that will be painfully
slow (local DNS timing out is not fast).

Elijah
------
uses local DNS to communicate between computers in his own house

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#17649

Sylvia Else wrote:

> The mind boggles.

I would say it's simply a flaky driver for the touch-screen, any "story" 
about network failure is just to fend-off angry customers ...

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#17652

On 28/03/2019 7:27 pm, Andy Burns wrote:
> Sylvia Else wrote:
> 
>> The mind boggles.
> 
> I would say it's simply a flaky driver for the touch-screen, any "story" 
> about network failure is just to fend-off angry customers ...
> 

No, their entire system was down, not just the kiosks. Couldn't buy a 
coffee even by waving the folding stuff at them.

Sylvia.

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#17650

Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> writes:
> My local Maccas was temporarily unable to take orders today because
> there was some kind of upstream network failure. I took this
> photograph of one of their kiosks.
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/lsmg6ux84svt2ne/WindowsCrash.jpg?dl=0
>
> What does this image tell us?
>
> 1. McDonald's is using Windows to run a system that takes orders for
> burgers and coffee.
>
> 2. Said system cannot handle an upstream failure without crashing due
> to problem with a driver.
>
> 3. The driver appears to be related to the touch screen.
>
> <https://www.scribd.com/document/254188226/Elo-Touch-Solutions-Multi-Touch-Driver-User-Manual-6-4-0>
>
> 4. Somehow, and upstream failure can break a touch screen driver.

Which bit of the image do you think shows a network problem or a
connection from the driver fault to the network?

-- 
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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#17653

On 28/03/2019 7:39 pm, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
> Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> writes:
>> My local Maccas was temporarily unable to take orders today because
>> there was some kind of upstream network failure. I took this
>> photograph of one of their kiosks.
>>
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/lsmg6ux84svt2ne/WindowsCrash.jpg?dl=0
>>
>> What does this image tell us?
>>
>> 1. McDonald's is using Windows to run a system that takes orders for
>> burgers and coffee.
>>
>> 2. Said system cannot handle an upstream failure without crashing due
>> to problem with a driver.
>>
>> 3. The driver appears to be related to the touch screen.
>>
>> <https://www.scribd.com/document/254188226/Elo-Touch-Solutions-Multi-Touch-Driver-User-Manual-6-4-0>
>>
>> 4. Somehow, and upstream failure can break a touch screen driver.
> 
> Which bit of the image do you think shows a network problem or a
> connection from the driver fault to the network?
> 

The network problem was manifest by a failure of their entire system, as 
well as its coming back after ten minutes with no action on their part.

Sylvia.

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#17651

On 28/03/2019 04:48, Sylvia Else wrote:
> My local Maccas was temporarily unable to take orders today because 
> there was some kind of upstream network failure. I took this photograph 
> of one of their kiosks.
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/lsmg6ux84svt2ne/WindowsCrash.jpg?dl=0
> 
> What does this image tell us?
> 
> 1. McDonald's is using Windows to run a system that takes orders for 
> burgers and coffee.
> 
> 2. Said system cannot handle an upstream failure without crashing due to 
> problem with a driver.
> 
> 3. The driver appears to be related to the touch screen.
> 
> <https://www.scribd.com/document/254188226/Elo-Touch-Solutions-Multi-Touch-Driver-User-Manual-6-4-0> 
> 
> 
> 4. Somehow, and upstream failure can break a touch screen driver.
> 
> The mind boggles.
> 

Faulty driver update deployed from remote?

-- 
Adrian C

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#17654

On 28/03/2019 9:43 pm, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
> On 28/03/2019 04:48, Sylvia Else wrote:
>> My local Maccas was temporarily unable to take orders today because 
>> there was some kind of upstream network failure. I took this 
>> photograph of one of their kiosks.
>>
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/lsmg6ux84svt2ne/WindowsCrash.jpg?dl=0
>>
>> What does this image tell us?
>>
>> 1. McDonald's is using Windows to run a system that takes orders for 
>> burgers and coffee.
>>
>> 2. Said system cannot handle an upstream failure without crashing due 
>> to problem with a driver.
>>
>> 3. The driver appears to be related to the touch screen.
>>
>> <https://www.scribd.com/document/254188226/Elo-Touch-Solutions-Multi-Touch-Driver-User-Manual-6-4-0> 
>>
>>
>> 4. Somehow, and upstream failure can break a touch screen driver.
>>
>> The mind boggles.
>>
> 
> Faulty driver update deployed from remote?
> 

I don't think so. It appears I didn't adequately explain what was going 
on. None of the McDonald's order system was working, not the kiosks, not 
the counter cash registers, nor ordering over the Ap.

The kiosk BSofD seemed just a symptom of the wider problem, albeit not 
the kind one would expect.

Sylvia.

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#17656

On 28/03/2019 12:00, Sylvia Else wrote:
> On 28/03/2019 9:43 pm, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
>>>
>>> 4. Somehow, and upstream failure can break a touch screen driver.
>>>
>>> The mind boggles.
>>>
>>
>> Faulty driver update deployed from remote?
>>
> 
> I don't think so. It appears I didn't adequately explain what was going 
> on. None of the McDonald's order system was working, not the kiosks, not 
> the counter cash registers, nor ordering over the Ap.
> 
> The kiosk BSofD seemed just a symptom of the wider problem, albeit not 
> the kind one would expect.

Maybe this.

There apparently is a "EloView" management thing that looks after both 
Android and Windows clients, one of the features is a Connectivity Watchdog

https://www.elotouch.com/eloview/support/whats-new-release-1.17-3

"You can now get more reliable connectivity to devices thanks to 
implementation of a connectivity watchdog. Devices can rarely go OFFLINE 
in the EloView portal due to prior network upsets or other issues. The 
watchdog will automatically reboot devices every 24 hours in case they 
lose connectivity. This is an optional feature you can select if you 
notice that your devices lose connectivity – i.e. show OFFLINE on 
EloView when they are in fact connected to the internet."

The network went down, the driver noticed it and attempted to take 
windows down (unsuccessfully).

-- 
Adrian C

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#17657

On 28/03/2019 11:38 pm, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
> On 28/03/2019 12:00, Sylvia Else wrote:
>> On 28/03/2019 9:43 pm, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 4. Somehow, and upstream failure can break a touch screen driver.
>>>>
>>>> The mind boggles.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Faulty driver update deployed from remote?
>>>
>>
>> I don't think so. It appears I didn't adequately explain what was 
>> going on. None of the McDonald's order system was working, not the 
>> kiosks, not the counter cash registers, nor ordering over the Ap.
>>
>> The kiosk BSofD seemed just a symptom of the wider problem, albeit not 
>> the kind one would expect.
> 
> Maybe this.
> 
> There apparently is a "EloView" management thing that looks after both 
> Android and Windows clients, one of the features is a Connectivity Watchdog
> 
> https://www.elotouch.com/eloview/support/whats-new-release-1.17-3
> 
> "You can now get more reliable connectivity to devices thanks to 
> implementation of a connectivity watchdog. Devices can rarely go OFFLINE 
> in the EloView portal due to prior network upsets or other issues. The 
> watchdog will automatically reboot devices every 24 hours in case they 
> lose connectivity. This is an optional feature you can select if you 
> notice that your devices lose connectivity – i.e. show OFFLINE on 
> EloView when they are in fact connected to the internet."
> 
> The network went down, the driver noticed it and attempted to take 
> windows down (unsuccessfully).
> 
Hmmm.

I've never thought much of software watchdog mechanisms. Nothing beats 
hardware that pulls the reset line (or even power cycles) unless it's 
frequently told not to.

Sylvia.

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#17659

Sylvia Else  <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:
>
>The kiosk BSofD seemed just a symptom of the wider problem, albeit not 
>the kind one would expect.

The wider problem is people building complex systems with thousands of
dependencies that they don't really understand, without taking into account
the risks involved with such design practice.
--scott
-- 
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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#17660

On 2019-03-28, Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
> Sylvia Else  <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>The kiosk BSofD seemed just a symptom of the wider problem, albeit not 
>>the kind one would expect.
>
> The wider problem is people building complex systems with thousands of
> dependencies that they don't really understand,

Or even know about.

-- 
Today is Boomtime, the 14th day of Discord in the YOLD 3185
1. What power do you have?  2. Where did you get it?  3. In whose
interests do you exercise it?  4. To whom are you accountable?  5. How
                  can we get rid of you?

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#17662

>>>>> Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> writes:
>>>>> Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:

 >> The kiosk BSofD seemed just a symptom of the wider problem, albeit
 >> not  the kind one would expect.

 > The wider problem is people building complex systems with thousands
 > of dependencies that they don't really understand, without taking
 > into account the risks involved with such design practice.

	But surely they could've employed a simpler solution!  Such as
	one based on GNU, Linux, and Systemd.

-- 
SCNR.

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