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Re: Java is faster!

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  Re: Java is faster! Roedy Green <inquiry@mindprod.com> - 2016-09-30 03:05 -0700
    Re: Java is faster! j4n bur53 <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2016-10-01 12:50 +0200
      Re: Java is faster! j4n bur53 <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2016-10-01 12:53 +0200
        Re: Java is faster! Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2016-10-01 11:36 -0400
          Re: Java is faster! j4n bur53 <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2016-10-01 23:39 +0200
            Re: Java is faster! Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2016-10-02 08:32 -0400
              Re: Java is faster! j4n bur53 <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2016-10-02 18:36 +0200
                Re: Java is faster! Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2016-10-02 20:08 -0400
                  Re: Java is faster! j4n bur53 <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2016-10-03 10:54 +0200
                    Re: Java is faster! j4n bur53 <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2016-10-03 10:55 +0200
                      Re: Java is faster! j4n bur53 <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2016-10-03 11:01 +0200
                        Re: Java is faster! Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2016-10-03 19:56 -0400
                          Re: Java is faster! j4n bur53 <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2016-10-04 11:08 +0200
                            Re: Java is faster! Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2016-10-04 19:50 -0400
                    Re: Java is faster! Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2016-10-03 19:59 -0400
                      Re: Java is faster! Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2016-10-03 20:04 -0400
                        Re: Java is faster! Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2016-10-03 20:14 -0400
        Re: Java is faster! Brixomatic <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2016-10-05 11:02 +0200
        Re: Java is faster! j4n bur53 <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2016-10-06 19:55 +0200
          Re: Java is faster! j4n bur53 <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2016-10-06 20:22 +0200
          Re: Java is faster! Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2016-10-06 18:16 -0400
            Re: Java is faster! j4n bur53 <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2016-10-07 02:51 +0200
              Re: Java is faster! Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2016-10-08 09:56 -0400
      Re: Java is faster! Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2016-10-01 11:19 -0400
    Re: Java is faster! Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2016-10-01 11:12 -0400

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#35673 — Re: Java is faster!

On 23 Sep 2016 13:31:38 GMT, ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
wrote:

>      "Java is faster!
>      In terms of throughput in a long running system ...
>      For specific applications ...
>      On a well tuned JVM ...
>      With near-optimal GC strategy selected ..."
>
>  says Chandler Carruth, one of Google's C++ experts. (JFTR)

I wrote some time ago about how astoundingly clever Jet was at
optimising  code generation. I was far faster than anything a human
assembler programmer would generate. It was convoluted, but fast.  The
Jet people got freaked thinking my examples would imply their code was
easy to disassemble and removed the option to display the generated
assembler.

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#35675

What is Jet? This one?
https://www.excelsiorjet.com/

Roedy Green schrieb:
> On 23 Sep 2016 13:31:38 GMT, ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
> wrote:
>
>>       "Java is faster!
>>       In terms of throughput in a long running system ...
>>       For specific applications ...
>>       On a well tuned JVM ...
>>       With near-optimal GC strategy selected ..."
>>
>>   says Chandler Carruth, one of Google's C++ experts. (JFTR)
>
> I wrote some time ago about how astoundingly clever Jet was at
> optimising  code generation. I was far faster than anything a human
> assembler programmer would generate. It was convoluted, but fast.  The
> Jet people got freaked thinking my examples would imply their code was
> easy to disassemble and removed the option to display the generated
> assembler.
>

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#35676

Hi,

BTW: I wonder whether installers will die out,
since Windows 10 etc.. has an App store etc..
And also Windows has some new App manifests
formats etc..

At least on Android etc.. there are mostly stores
not apps with installers. And from the beginning
there was this APK format.

(Just saw, that Jet can also generate an installer)

Bye


j4n bur53 schrieb:
> What is Jet? This one?
> https://www.excelsiorjet.com/
>
> Roedy Green schrieb:
>> On 23 Sep 2016 13:31:38 GMT, ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
>> wrote:
>>
>>>       "Java is faster!
>>>       In terms of throughput in a long running system ...
>>>       For specific applications ...
>>>       On a well tuned JVM ...
>>>       With near-optimal GC strategy selected ..."
>>>
>>>   says Chandler Carruth, one of Google's C++ experts. (JFTR)
>>
>> I wrote some time ago about how astoundingly clever Jet was at
>> optimising  code generation. I was far faster than anything a human
>> assembler programmer would generate. It was convoluted, but fast.  The
>> Jet people got freaked thinking my examples would imply their code was
>> easy to disassemble and removed the option to display the generated
>> assembler.
>>
>

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#35680

On 10/1/2016 6:53 AM, j4n bur53 wrote:
> BTW: I wonder whether installers will die out,
> since Windows 10 etc.. has an App store etc..
> And also Windows has some new App manifests
> formats etc..
>
> At least on Android etc.. there are mostly stores
> not apps with installers. And from the beginning
> there was this APK format.

Windows has had a store since 8.0.

To my best knowledge it has not been a success.

Arne

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#35683

For example I upgraded a machine via an ISO image to Windows 10.
(Out of despair, since I had accidentially formatted the hard disk)

And suddently it had an XBOX
app, from the store.

Then I was trying to minecraft,
also from the store, for this XBOX app.

And then inside minecraft it started to
ask me to buy some stuff, also from the store.

So its there. But I don't know yet how to
push .jar's to this brand new/old store.

Arne Vajhøj schrieb:
> On 10/1/2016 6:53 AM, j4n bur53 wrote:
>> BTW: I wonder whether installers will die out,
>> since Windows 10 etc.. has an App store etc..
>> And also Windows has some new App manifests
>> formats etc..
>>
>> At least on Android etc.. there are mostly stores
>> not apps with installers. And from the beginning
>> there was this APK format.
>
> Windows has had a store since 8.0.
>
> To my best knowledge it has not been a success.
>
> Arne
>
>

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#35685

On 10/1/2016 5:39 PM, j4n bur53 wrote:
> Arne Vajhøj schrieb:
>> On 10/1/2016 6:53 AM, j4n bur53 wrote:
>>> BTW: I wonder whether installers will die out,
>>> since Windows 10 etc.. has an App store etc..
>>> And also Windows has some new App manifests
>>> formats etc..
>>>
>>> At least on Android etc.. there are mostly stores
>>> not apps with installers. And from the beginning
>>> there was this APK format.
>>
>> Windows has had a store since 8.0.
>>
>> To my best knowledge it has not been a success.

 > For example I upgraded a machine via an ISO image to Windows 10.
 > (Out of despair, since I had accidentially formatted the hard disk)
 >
 > And suddently it had an XBOX
 > app, from the store.
 >
 > Then I was trying to minecraft,
 > also from the store, for this XBOX app.
 >
 > And then inside minecraft it started to
 > ask me to buy some stuff, also from the store.
 >
 > So its there. But I don't know yet how to
 > push .jar's to this brand new/old store.

Unless MS changed something recently, then you can't.

It is (or was if they changed it) only for applications
using the WinRT framework.

The marketing term has changed over time, but the most recent I have
seen is Universal Windows Platform (UWP).

Bottom line: no Java.

Arne

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#35688

No, no, its not only related to WinRT.
Since basically it allows to sell any
content, films, books, etc..

Maybe you can sneek in JARs just as some
content. Or use Excelsior Jet, to make
your Java a WinRT.

Not yet sure what the path will be.
But you would use Excelsior Jet in much
more simpler way, you would spare the installer, right?

Arne Vajhøj schrieb:
>  > So its there. But I don't know yet how to
>  > push .jar's to this brand new/old store.
>
> Unless MS changed something recently, then you can't.
>
> It is (or was if they changed it) only for applications
> using the WinRT framework.
>
> The marketing term has changed over time, but the most recent I have
> seen is Universal Windows Platform (UWP).
>
> Bottom line: no Java.
>
> Arne

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#35696

On 10/2/2016 12:36 PM, j4n bur53 wrote:
> Arne Vajhøj schrieb:
>>  > So its there. But I don't know yet how to
>>  > push .jar's to this brand new/old store.
>>
>> Unless MS changed something recently, then you can't.
>>
>> It is (or was if they changed it) only for applications
>> using the WinRT framework.
>>
>> The marketing term has changed over time, but the most recent I have
>> seen is Universal Windows Platform (UWP).
>>
>> Bottom line: no Java.
 >
 > No, no, its not only related to WinRT.
 > Since basically it allows to sell any
 > content, films, books, etc..

Hmm.

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/dn764944.aspx

<quote>
Windows Store Policies

Document version: 7.0

Document date: August 2, 2016

...

Your app may only depend on Windows Runtime APIs allowed for Store apps 
and must remain within the boundaries allowed for Store apps (e.g., 
cannot break out of the AppContainer).
</quote>

 > Maybe you can sneek in JARs just as some
 > content.

<quote>
Your app must not attempt to change or extend the described 
functionality through any form of dynamic inclusion of code that is in 
violation of Store Policies.
</quote>

 >                                         Or use Excelsior Jet, to make
 > your Java a WinRT.

I am pretty sure that an Excelsior Jet generated executable depend
on more than WinRT library.

 > Not yet sure what the path will be.
 > But you would use Excelsior Jet in much
 > more simpler way, you would spare the installer, right?

If Java is available then so can an executable jar.

Arne

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#35698

Arne Vajhøj schrieb:
> I am pretty sure that an Excelsior Jet generated executable depend
> on more than WinRT library.

Mostlikely we are talking about different things.
For example if I look at one of the newer formats
like here:
https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/hh446767%28v=vs.85%29.aspx#create_package_using_dir

I don't see even a single mention of WinRT. Also
I was myself download stuff where I didn't step
over WinRT, namely the XBOX app.

I was also mentioning windows 10. If you look at
the store entry for XBOX app, you will find
the following minimum requirement:
https://www.microsoft.com/de-ch/store/p/xbox/9wzdncrfjbd8

- Operatingsystem: Windows 10, Windows 10 Mobile
- Architectur: x64, ARM, x86

Bye

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#35699

j4n bur53 schrieb:
> I was also mentioning windows 10. If you look at
> the store entry for XBOX app, you will find
> the following minimum requirement:
> https://www.microsoft.com/de-ch/store/p/xbox/9wzdncrfjbd8
>
> - Operatingsystem: Windows 10, Windows 10 Mobile
> - Architectur: x64, ARM, x86

Actually I am using Windows 10, version 1607.

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#35700

j4n bur53 schrieb:
> j4n bur53 schrieb:
>> I was also mentioning windows 10. If you look at
>> the store entry for XBOX app, you will find
>> the following minimum requirement:
>> https://www.microsoft.com/de-ch/store/p/xbox/9wzdncrfjbd8
>>
>> - Operatingsystem: Windows 10, Windows 10 Mobile
>> - Architectur: x64, ARM, x86
>
> Actually I am using Windows 10, version 1607.

According to Wiki, WinRT was Windows 8.x specific.
But for Windows 10 it was replaced by UWP:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Windows_Platform

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
UWP is a part of Windows 10 and Windows 10 Mobile.
UWP apps do not run on earlier Windows versions.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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#35705

On 10/3/2016 5:01 AM, j4n bur53 wrote:
> j4n bur53 schrieb:
>> j4n bur53 schrieb:
>>> I was also mentioning windows 10. If you look at
>>> the store entry for XBOX app, you will find
>>> the following minimum requirement:
>>> https://www.microsoft.com/de-ch/store/p/xbox/9wzdncrfjbd8
>>>
>>> - Operatingsystem: Windows 10, Windows 10 Mobile
>>> - Architectur: x64, ARM, x86
>>
>> Actually I am using Windows 10, version 1607.
>
> According to Wiki, WinRT was Windows 8.x specific.
> But for Windows 10 it was replaced by UWP:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Windows_Platform

That is just a new version with a new name.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Runtime#Version_history

All the restrictions still apply.

Arne

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#35709

Arne Vajhøj schrieb:
> That is just a new version with a new name.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Runtime#Version_history
>
> All the restrictions still apply.
>
> Arne

You are right, I was googeling a little bit,
its more a platform for C++, C#, VB and JavaScript,
even a jitting JVM would probably not run, since some
special virtual memory ops are not available.

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/13957609/would-java-virtual-machine-run-on-winrt

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#35719

On 10/4/2016 5:08 AM, j4n bur53 wrote:
> Arne Vajhøj schrieb:
>> That is just a new version with a new name.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Runtime#Version_history
>>
>> All the restrictions still apply.
>
> You are right, I was googeling a little bit,
> its more a platform for C++, C#, VB and JavaScript,

It requires something that call use COM objects.

MS is not exactly emphasizing it in their marketing,
but WinRT/UWP is actually based on good old COM.

> even a jitting JVM would probably not run, since some
> special virtual memory ops are not available.
>
> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/13957609/would-java-virtual-machine-run-on-winrt

I think the answerer on SO misunderstood the question.

I am 99% sure that the question was about running Java on
Windows RT.

Windows RT = Windows for ARM CPU based systems

WinRT = Windows Runtime = framework/library for writing Metro/Modern/UWP 
apps

I do not see any technical problems making Java run on
Windows RT. Oracle already has Java running on ARM and
on Windows, so running on Windows on ARM should be
possible. As Windows RT was a commercial failure then
there is little business reason to make such a port.

Java on WinRT will have a lots of problems to overcome.
Due to the limited API available. It will be sort of
trying to get a Java EE application server running in
an applet. Best chance would probably be some flavor
of Java ME.

Or do a type of conversion from Java to UWP environment.

Arne

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#35706

On 10/3/2016 4:54 AM, j4n bur53 wrote:
> Arne Vajhøj schrieb:
>> I am pretty sure that an Excelsior Jet generated executable depend
>> on more than WinRT library.
>
> Mostlikely we are talking about different things.
> For example if I look at one of the newer formats
> like here:
> https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/hh446767%28v=vs.85%29.aspx#create_package_using_dir
>
> I don't see even a single mention of WinRT.

It does not.

But there are other pages explaining that aspect.

Arne

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#35707

On 10/3/2016 7:59 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 10/3/2016 4:54 AM, j4n bur53 wrote:
>> Arne Vajhøj schrieb:
>>> I am pretty sure that an Excelsior Jet generated executable depend
>>> on more than WinRT library.
>>
>> Mostlikely we are talking about different things.
>> For example if I look at one of the newer formats
>> like here:
>> https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/hh446767%28v=vs.85%29.aspx#create_package_using_dir
>>
>>
>> I don't see even a single mention of WinRT.
>
> It does not.
>
> But there are other pages explaining that aspect.

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/get-started/whats-a-uwp

UWP apps use the Windows Runtime, a native API built into the operating 
system. This API is implemented in C++ and supported in C#, Visual 
Basic, C++, and JavaScript in a way that feels natural for each language.

Arne

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#35708

On 10/3/2016 8:04 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 10/3/2016 7:59 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 10/3/2016 4:54 AM, j4n bur53 wrote:
>>> Arne Vajhøj schrieb:
>>>> I am pretty sure that an Excelsior Jet generated executable depend
>>>> on more than WinRT library.
>>>
>>> Mostlikely we are talking about different things.
>>> For example if I look at one of the newer formats
>>> like here:
>>> https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/

hh446767%28v=vs.85%29.aspx#create_package_using_dir
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't see even a single mention of WinRT.
>>
>> It does not.
>>
>> But there are other pages explaining that aspect.
>
> https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/get-started/whats-a-uwp
>
> UWP apps use the Windows Runtime, a native API built into the operating
> system. This API is implemented in C++ and supported in C#, Visual
> Basic, C++, and JavaScript in a way that feels natural for each language.

If someone would want to try and make Excelsior Jet'ed Java run on UWP,
then I think what is needed is the socalled "desktop brige":

https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/bridges/desktop

http://www.techtimes.com/articles/178056/20160917/
microsoft-desktop-bridge-hard-at-work-first-apps-ported-to-universal-windows-platform-now-available-for-windows-10-users.htm

But I suspect that would require assistance from Excelsior.

Arne

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#35723

In article <nso4jd$liu$2@news.albasani.net>, j4n bur53 
(janburse@fastmail.fm) says...

> BTW: I wonder whether installers will die out,

Prepare for a dockerized future.

Kind regards,
Wanja


-- 
..Alesi's problem was that the back of the car was jumping up and down 
dangerously - and I can assure you from having been teammate to 
Jean Alesi and knowing what kind of cars that he can pull up with, 
when Jean Alesi says that a car is dangerous - it is. [Jonathan Palmer]

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#35732

And still there seems a way:
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12669606/windows-8-store-certification-for-a-windows-desktop-app-written-in-java

j4n bur53 schrieb:
> Hi,
>
> BTW: I wonder whether installers will die out,
> since Windows 10 etc.. has an App store etc..
> And also Windows has some new App manifests
> formats etc..
>
> At least on Android etc.. there are mostly stores
> not apps with installers. And from the beginning
> there was this APK format.
>
> (Just saw, that Jet can also generate an installer)
>
> Bye

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#35733

This video is quite informative:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdxK9-3N5Qs

I still think that with the new APPX there could
be something for Java apps as well.

j4n bur53 schrieb:
> And still there seems a way:
> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12669606/windows-8-store-certification-for-a-windows-desktop-app-written-in-java
>
>
> j4n bur53 schrieb:
>> Hi,
>>
>> BTW: I wonder whether installers will die out,
>> since Windows 10 etc.. has an App store etc..
>> And also Windows has some new App manifests
>> formats etc..
>>
>> At least on Android etc.. there are mostly stores
>> not apps with installers. And from the beginning
>> there was this APK format.
>>
>> (Just saw, that Jet can also generate an installer)
>>
>> Bye

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