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Things have 'moved on' apparently

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  Things have 'moved on' apparently Eternal Hope <laughingspam99@gmail.com> - 2015-11-06 12:32 +0000
    Re: Things have 'moved on' apparently Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtrie@pixelmemory.us> - 2015-11-06 08:25 -0800
      Re: Things have 'moved on' apparently Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2015-11-06 12:02 -0800
        Re: Things have 'moved on' apparently Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-11-06 19:46 -0500
          Re: Things have 'moved on' apparently Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2015-11-07 17:21 +0000
            Re: Things have 'moved on' apparently Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-11-07 12:50 -0500
          Re: Things have 'moved on' apparently Eric Douglas <e.d.programmer@gmail.com> - 2015-11-09 05:37 -0800
            Re: Things have 'moved on' apparently Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-11-09 09:00 -0500
            Re: Things have 'moved on' apparently Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2015-11-09 14:56 +0000
            Re: Things have 'moved on' apparently Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2015-11-09 19:25 +0000
        Re: Things have 'moved on' apparently Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-11-07 21:57 -0500
      Re: Things have 'moved on' apparently Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-11-07 22:02 -0500
        Re: Things have 'moved on' apparently leif.roar@dimnakorr.com - 2015-11-08 02:00 -0600
          Re: Things have 'moved on' apparently Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-11-08 08:44 -0500
            Re: Things have 'moved on' apparently leif.roar@dimnakorr.com - 2015-11-08 13:08 -0600
          Re: Things have 'moved on' apparently Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2015-11-08 18:54 +0100
            Re: Things have 'moved on' apparently Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2015-11-08 21:12 +0000
              Re: Things have 'moved on' apparently Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-11-08 17:05 -0500
                Re: Things have 'moved on' apparently Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2015-11-08 23:24 +0000
                  Re: Things have 'moved on' apparently Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-11-08 19:40 -0500
                    Re: Things have 'moved on' apparently Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-11-08 21:32 -0500
                      Re: Things have 'moved on' apparently Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2015-11-09 15:15 +0000
        Re: Things have 'moved on' apparently Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtrie@pixelmemory.us> - 2015-11-08 12:10 -0800
          Re: Things have 'moved on' apparently Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-11-08 16:00 -0500
          Re: Things have 'moved on' apparently Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-11-08 16:51 -0500
    Re: Things have 'moved on' apparently Jan Burse <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2015-11-08 00:55 +0100
    Re: Things have 'moved on' apparently Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-11-07 21:28 -0500
      Re: Things have 'moved on' apparently Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2015-11-07 21:36 -0500
    Re: Things have 'moved on' apparently leif.roar@dimnakorr.com - 2015-11-08 02:12 -0600
    Re: Things have 'moved on' apparently askfor <askfor@nowhere.net> - 2015-11-09 18:02 +0100
    Re: Things have 'moved on' apparently Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtrie@pixelmemory.us> - 2015-11-10 22:32 -0800
      Re: Things have 'moved on' apparently Eternal Hope <laughingspam99@gmail.com> - 2015-11-11 07:52 +0000
        Re: Things have 'moved on' apparently ross.finlayson@gmail.com - 2015-11-19 23:28 -0800

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#33035

On 11/8/2015 7:40 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 11/8/2015 6:24 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> On Sun, 08 Nov 2015 17:05:47 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/8/2015 4:12 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>>> In this case the offending functions were the malloc and B-tree modules
>>>> in the C standard library for DEC's Alpha servers running TrueUNIX.
>>>>
>>>> The root problem was that the OS was Mach-based and the implementation
>>>> seemed to use a single-threaded process to implement each low level
>>>> clib function: at least, we found this problem in several parts of the
>>>> OS. Maybe this is the main reason that Mach message-passing
>>>> micro-kernel architectures have largely disappeared, but I digress...
>>>>
>>>> The effect was that, because the btree routine used three chunks of
>>>> memory for each node (IIRC one for key, one for data, one for the three
>>>> pointers), so that lookups (which added unknown nodes to the tree)
>>>> bottle-
>>>> necked on the malloc() process with three calls per node added. We
>>>> needed something like 7,000 lookups/sec but couldn't break 800.
>>>>
>>>> So I rewrote the btree functions to use only one struct per node, which
>>>> gave an immediate speedup to better than 1500 lookups/sec.
>>>>
>>>> More checks showed that now the sbrk() function that malloc() called
>>>> each time it needed to extend process heap memory had the same problem.
>>>> So, I changed my code to use malloc() to grab MB-sized chunks of heap
>>>> space and and wrote an application level function that allocated btree
>>>> nodes in my chunk of heap and asked for more when it was needed. This
>>>> gave me 25,000 looks/sec: job done!
>>>
>>> Isn't that what __mingrow was supposed to do in a more transparent way?
>>>
>> 'locate' doesn't find __mingrow (or mingrow) in my development
>> environment. The pnly references I can find are in relation to a C#
>> priority queue: this all happened long before C# existed.
> 
> http://www3.physnet.uni-hamburg.de/physnet/Tru64-Unix/HTML/MAN/MAN3/0892____.HTM
> 
> 
> Arne
> 

"Note that these variables and their effects are specific to the current
DIGITAL UNIX memory allocation implementation."

The variables are implementation specific, and may or may not exist in
his library implementation.

-- 
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

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#33045

On Sun, 08 Nov 2015 21:32:42 -0500, Jerry Stuckle wrote:

> "Note that these variables and their effects are specific to the current
> DIGITAL UNIX memory allocation implementation."
> 
> The variables are implementation specific, and may or may not exist in
> his library implementation.
>
Exactly. As a Linux user, I use the GNU compiler collection.

Arne is right, though, the page he produced does apply to a later version 
of DEC TrueUNIX. I wonder if TrueUNIX uses a Mach kernel now: it 
certainly wouldn't still be running on an AlphaServer chip. 

All I can add is that none of us had met TrueUNIX or an Alphaserver 
before we started that project, but that calling malloc() to force a huge 
heap expansion was fast enough that we never bothered optimising that any 
further. I think we were all mightily impressed by the Alphaserver: it 
was much faster than any equivalent Intel chip I'd seen at the time.


-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

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#33028

In article <n1me0f$6d5$1@speranza.aioe.org>,
 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

> On 11/6/2015 11:25 AM, Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
> > Based on my recent job hunt, I'd say Java is holding steady as an older
> > language.  It's not going away but nobody is rushing for the latest
> > Oracle upgrades either.  It still has a bad reputation for easily
> > becoming bloated with libraries and add-ons.
> 
> Most Java EE projects tend to end up including a rather large number
> of libraries.
> 
> But what is the alternative? Writing the stuff one self? That does
> not sound better to me!

It sometimes does for me.

There's a point where the overhead of integration, bug workarounds, and 
limitations of a 3rd party library are higher than writing a solution 
for scratch.  There's a LOT of Oracle, Apache, and Spring code that I 
won't touch because it's slow, buggy, has outdated APIs, and it's going 
to download the whole Internet through its dependency chain.

I usually write JDBC pools and app property management myself.  I 
haven't yet found ones that aren't excessively complex and buggy due to 
solving problems the wrong way.  Writing a new one for a new job is 
easier than getting an existing one integrated, tuned, and debugged.  I 
don't write the JDBC driver myself :)

I've even written my own JSON object serializer/deserializer.  I 
normally use Jackson but it's a beast with multiple incompatible 
versions.  Trying to get Jackson to play nice in shared libraries was 
taking over a week and not making good progress.  Writing a mini one 
took one day to write and somebody can rip it out in a couple of hours 
if they stop liking it.


> Which could somehow be phrased as: it is bad to have a ton of libraries
> but it is even worse to not have a ton of libraries.
> 
> :-)
> 
> Arne

-- 
I will not see posts from astraweb, theremailer, dizum, or google
because they host Usenet flooders.

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#33029

On 11/8/2015 3:10 PM, Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
> In article <n1me0f$6d5$1@speranza.aioe.org>,
>  Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> 
>> On 11/6/2015 11:25 AM, Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
>>> Based on my recent job hunt, I'd say Java is holding steady as an older
>>> language.  It's not going away but nobody is rushing for the latest
>>> Oracle upgrades either.  It still has a bad reputation for easily
>>> becoming bloated with libraries and add-ons.
>>
>> Most Java EE projects tend to end up including a rather large number
>> of libraries.
>>
>> But what is the alternative? Writing the stuff one self? That does
>> not sound better to me!
> 
> It sometimes does for me.
> 
> There's a point where the overhead of integration, bug workarounds, and 
> limitations of a 3rd party library are higher than writing a solution 
> for scratch.  There's a LOT of Oracle, Apache, and Spring code that I 
> won't touch because it's slow, buggy, has outdated APIs, and it's going 
> to download the whole Internet through its dependency chain.
>

I would add that when you write it yourself, you get *exactly* what you
need, without a lot of extra overhead and/or trying to shoehorn your
needs into someone else's libraries.

-- 
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

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#33031

On 11/8/2015 3:10 PM, Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
> In article <n1me0f$6d5$1@speranza.aioe.org>,
>   Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>
>> On 11/6/2015 11:25 AM, Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
>>> Based on my recent job hunt, I'd say Java is holding steady as an older
>>> language.  It's not going away but nobody is rushing for the latest
>>> Oracle upgrades either.  It still has a bad reputation for easily
>>> becoming bloated with libraries and add-ons.
>>
>> Most Java EE projects tend to end up including a rather large number
>> of libraries.
>>
>> But what is the alternative? Writing the stuff one self? That does
>> not sound better to me!
>
> It sometimes does for me.
>
> There's a point where the overhead of integration, bug workarounds, and
> limitations of a 3rd party library are higher than writing a solution
> for scratch.  There's a LOT of Oracle, Apache, and Spring code that I
> won't touch because it's slow, buggy, has outdated APIs, and it's going
> to download the whole Internet through its dependency chain.
>
> I usually write JDBC pools and app property management myself.  I
> haven't yet found ones that aren't excessively complex and buggy due to
> solving problems the wrong way.  Writing a new one for a new job is
> easier than getting an existing one integrated, tuned, and debugged.  I
> don't write the JDBC driver myself :)

Apache DBCP does not look bad regarding bugs.

Their Jira says 7 open, 6 of them have been fixed in later versions
and the remaining is only a week old.

Arne

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#33013

Eternal Hope schrieb:
> "Of course, things have moved on from Java now"
>
> Moved on to what I asked
>
> "Python said he"
>
> "That's what all the kids in the city are using these days"
>
> Is it?

So the conclusion is that in the future programmers
will use Python and Scratch:

https://www.raspberrypi.org/learning/getting-started-with-scratch/worksheet/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6p4ZkHmGLg

And formula 1 will use go karts.

Bye

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#33014

On 11/6/2015 7:32 AM, Eternal Hope wrote:
> Since retiring I have tried to keep up with what's going on in the 'real
> world' I'm not entirely sure what world this is but there we are, digress.
>
> Anyway. I've just been talking to a guy who invests in IT start ups,
> mainly financial stuff and I was somewhat taken aback when he said ...
>
> "Of course, things have moved on from Java now"
>
> Moved on to what I asked
>
> "Python said he"
>
> "That's what all the kids in the city are using these days"
>
> Is it?
>
> I have messed around with Python, well it's OK but is this really a
> robust enough language to be writing financial systems in?
>
> It's a rhetorical question
>
> Do I now have to throw away my significant investment in Java to learn
> Python. Am I a dinosaur :-(

Question:

Are companies hiring Python developers instead of Java developers?

Facts:

dice.com (US):

17274 jobs requiring Java currently
6249 jobs requiring Python currently

naukri.com (India):

25047 jobs requiring Java currently
4991 jobs requiring Python currently


itjobwatch.co.uk (UK):

15420 jobs requiring Java within 3 months
5863 jobs requiring Python within 3 months

Conclusion:

Even though Python is quite popular then in the big IT markets
Java demand is about 3 times Python demand.

(the market in your specific country/area can obviously be different)

Question:

Are people more interested in learning Python than in Java?

Fact:

stackoverflow.com:

5434 questions tagged with Java this week
3380 questions tagged with Python this week

tiobe.com (mostly based on search popularity):

Java 20.403% rating
Python 3.771% rating

Conclusion:

Even though Python is quite popular then people are still
more interested in Java than Python.

Arne

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#33015

On 11/7/2015 9:28 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 11/6/2015 7:32 AM, Eternal Hope wrote:
>> Since retiring I have tried to keep up with what's going on in the 'real
>> world' I'm not entirely sure what world this is but there we are,
>> digress.
>>
>> Anyway. I've just been talking to a guy who invests in IT start ups,
>> mainly financial stuff and I was somewhat taken aback when he said ...
>>
>> "Of course, things have moved on from Java now"
>>
>> Moved on to what I asked
>>
>> "Python said he"
>>
>> "That's what all the kids in the city are using these days"
>>
>> Is it?
>>
>> I have messed around with Python, well it's OK but is this really a
>> robust enough language to be writing financial systems in?
>>
>> It's a rhetorical question
>>
>> Do I now have to throw away my significant investment in Java to learn
>> Python. Am I a dinosaur :-(
>
> Question:
>
> Are companies hiring Python developers instead of Java developers?
>
> Facts:
>
> dice.com (US):
>
> 17274 jobs requiring Java currently
> 6249 jobs requiring Python currently
>
> naukri.com (India):
>
> 25047 jobs requiring Java currently
> 4991 jobs requiring Python currently
>
>
> itjobwatch.co.uk (UK):
>
> 15420 jobs requiring Java within 3 months
> 5863 jobs requiring Python within 3 months
>
> Conclusion:
>
> Even though Python is quite popular then in the big IT markets
> Java demand is about 3 times Python demand.
>
> (the market in your specific country/area can obviously be different)
>
> Question:
>
> Are people more interested in learning Python than in Java?
>
> Fact:
>
> stackoverflow.com:
>
> 5434 questions tagged with Java this week
> 3380 questions tagged with Python this week
>
> tiobe.com (mostly based on search popularity):
>
> Java 20.403% rating
> Python 3.771% rating
>
> Conclusion:
>
> Even though Python is quite popular then people are still
> more interested in Java than Python.

Java has gotten a reputation for being slightly old fashioned in
some circles.

But there are some factors that keep Java popular:
* Java EE is the most popular middleware platform and the most
   popular web backend platform - those systems are typically
   relative new only 0-15 years old so they will stay around
   for many years
* A lot of high-end enterprise software from Oracle, SAP and
   IBM comes with Java as supported tool set
* two of the hottest newer technologies are actually
   mostly Java based: smartphone apps (Android has about 80%
   market share), big data (Hadoop, HBase, Cassandra etc.
   totally dominates this market)

Arne

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#33024

Eternal Hope <laughingspam99@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> "Python said he"
> 
> "That's what all the kids in the city are using these days"
> 

Python? Really? I was rather under the impression that Python
had become a little old hat these days. It's still a popular
choice, don't get me wrong, but I don't see much talk about
moving projects or shops _to_ Python any more. The "allure of
the new" seem to be more on Rust or Go today.

-- 
Leif Roar Moldskred

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#33051

> Do I now have to throw away my significant investment in Java to learn
> Python. Am I a dinosaur :-(
>


As far as I know, there is no way to deploy Python app without 
disclosing source code. Giving source code away is not an option
for quite a few people out there.

Others, like me, might withhold source code until customers signs some
sort of document which testifies that he accepts the application
and is willing to pay for it.

Same goes for PHP.

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#33101

In article <n1i6go$btr$1@dont-email.me>,
 Eternal Hope <laughingspam99@gmail.com> wrote:

> Since retiring I have tried to keep up with what's going on in the 'real 
> world' I'm not entirely sure what world this is but there we are, digress.
> 
> Anyway. I've just been talking to a guy who invests in IT start ups, 
> mainly financial stuff and I was somewhat taken aback when he said ...
> 
> "Of course, things have moved on from Java now"
> 
> Moved on to what I asked
> 
> "Python said he"
> 
> "That's what all the kids in the city are using these days"
> 
> Is it?
> 
> I have messed around with Python, well it's OK but is this really a 
> robust enough language to be writing financial systems in?
> 
> It's a rhetorical question
> 
> Do I now have to throw away my significant investment in Java to learn 
> Python. Am I a dinosaur :-(

Constantly trying new things is the nature of any science.

I'm actually a bit disappointed that Java is still the big thing.  The 
syntax is cluttered with fixes for old mistakes and there's a big 
distrust of Oracle.  My previous employer wouldn't touch Java 8 even 
through the uglier syntax is useful.

I tried Golang but its creators' hatred of data modeling turned ugly for 
only moderately difficult tasks.  I was going to play with Swift but its 
memory management nightmare is a tough sell.  I'm skeptical of Node.js 
but I think it's something I should learn to use soon.

-- 
I will not see posts from astraweb, theremailer, dizum, or google
because they host Usenet flooders.

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#33102

On 11/11/2015 06:32, Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
> In article <n1i6go$btr$1@dont-email.me>,
>   Eternal Hope <laughingspam99@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Since retiring I have tried to keep up with what's going on in the 'real
>> world' I'm not entirely sure what world this is but there we are, digress.
>>
>> Anyway. I've just been talking to a guy who invests in IT start ups,
>> mainly financial stuff and I was somewhat taken aback when he said ...
>>
>> "Of course, things have moved on from Java now"
>>
>> Moved on to what I asked
>>
>> "Python said he"
>>
>> "That's what all the kids in the city are using these days"
>>
>> Is it?
>>
>> I have messed around with Python, well it's OK but is this really a
>> robust enough language to be writing financial systems in?
>>
>> It's a rhetorical question
>>
>> Do I now have to throw away my significant investment in Java to learn
>> Python. Am I a dinosaur :-(
>
> Constantly trying new things is the nature of any science.

Absolutely. I try and follow the path of 'lifetime learning' but there's 
just so much to learn, how do you choose ? :-)

> I'm actually a bit disappointed that Java is still the big thing.  The
> syntax is cluttered with fixes for old mistakes and there's a big
> distrust of Oracle.  My previous employer wouldn't touch Java 8 even
> through the uglier syntax is useful.
>
> I tried Golang but its creators' hatred of data modeling turned ugly for
> only moderately difficult tasks.  I was going to play with Swift but its
> memory management nightmare is a tough sell.  I'm skeptical of Node.js
> but I think it's something I should learn to use soon.

The thing I find slightly disconcerting is the apparent ease with which 
all the knowledge and experience built up over the years in a language 
is discarded in favour of thr latest greatest thing. Do these latest 
greatest languages have any where near the infrastructure that Java does?

Anyway, my current learning path is getting my head around the Google 
Analytics API. All you need to completely destroy any credibility of 
analytics for any site is the unique identifier for that site which is 
easily visible in plain text in any source code viewer.

You can ghost the analytics data so that it is meaningless.
I think Google have dopped one here, and yes it is OT because there is a 
Java interface, although I haven't compiled against the jar(s) yet.

Anyway, I have Python here and have managed to write a very simple 
client/server pair in a few lines of code. Looks like a duffers 
interface to C frome here. Not sure what to make of Duck Type 
'polymorphism' though :-)



-- 
Laughing Spam Fritter

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#33145

On Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 11:53:06 PM UTC-8, Eternal Hope wrote:
> On 11/11/2015 06:32, Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
> > In article <n1i6go$btr$1@dont-email.me>,
> >   Eternal Hope <laughingspam99@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Since retiring I have tried to keep up with what's going on in the 'real
> >> world' I'm not entirely sure what world this is but there we are, digress.
> >>
> >> Anyway. I've just been talking to a guy who invests in IT start ups,
> >> mainly financial stuff and I was somewhat taken aback when he said ...
> >>
> >> "Of course, things have moved on from Java now"
> >>

It's a policy in Amazon.com that all 
new development is in Java.  All the 
telecom outfits, all the middleware is 
Java, all the Android apps, Java-ish 
(to "Dalvik"), .NET with C# (or Java), 
the other retail outfits, Java everywhere, 
Java/Spring and maybe Guice, of course, 
real coders use C/C++ like Microsoft does, 
or as, say "gcc" or how Unix/Linux runs.

Python is for people who barely know Emacs.  
I don't even know ctags in my vim which I zsh.

Ruby, Python, Ruby on Rails, Jython, groovy 
and scala, "Java" Script, yes, the world 
has gone on.

Then everybody is expected to know "Web 
Services" but say "ReST" and there are 
myriad conventions all over "HTTP" verbs 
and what a "barely there" in terms of 
"tip it back over".  You have to know 
your XSD and use WSDLs then for what 
some few conventions add up the usual 
business object logic binding to toss 
into the massively overscaled runtime 
on the EC2 box for the cloud to amortize 
that back down to a .0001% runtime 3KB 
thread.

Yeah, they used to have a guy and he'd 
get paged and recycle the power switch.

(It was already on.)

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