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Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at?

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On 17/01/14 16:28, Joshua Cranmer 🐧 wrote:
> On 1/16/2014 7:05 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
>> I can't think of a language that isn't ultimately implemented in C.
>
> Zero-cost exception handling cannot be expressed in (ISO) C code (or, at
> the very least, not in a way that a C compiler will faithfully compile
> it--in the situation that would arise, clang and gcc are both extremely
> happy to mangle the code, even at -O0). Well, MSVC has __try/__catch,
> but that's not ISO C.

I've been reading up on this Zero-cost exception handling thing.
It seems that while there may be no overhead for exception handlers if 
no exception is raised, the performance of exception propagation is 
poor. Maybe it should be called 'Zero-cost exception handling if no 
exception occurs'. It's not impossible though is it, it's a compiler 
thing so it *could* be implemented ... if the compiler supported it. 
It's not a fundamental shortcoming of the language per-se is it?

>> If you think about it, any language *other* than C is simply a high(er)
>> level interface to C (ignoring assembler of course). Even C compilers
>> are written in C (go figure :-)
>
> Clang is written in C++. GCC is written in C++ as of 4.8. MSVC is
> written in C++. I'm pretty sure icc is also written in C++. Open64
> appears to be in C++ as well. Which means that all the C compilers which
> find major use are written in C++, not C.

According to lots of references on the intertubes the first C++ compiler 
was written in something called 'C with classes' which was written in ... C

>> Unless there is a revolution in the development of software development
>> languages I can't see C becoming obsolete any time soon. If you spend
>> time with C it will help you with almost any other language you can
>> think of. It's a no-brainer AFAICS. Use Java to earn good money, learn C
>> as an essential addition to your skill set.
>
> I have reached the point where I find C unusable as a programming
> language. While it lets you bury yourself in details and change things
> to your hearts content, it also requires that you bury yourself in
> details--you can't convert C code into partially-managed memory like you
> can in C++ with std::shared_ptr or std::unique_ptr. Also, C lacks a
> usable standard library (no hash maps, no auto-growing arrays). And I
> can go on and on.

I'm sure you can but implementing simple dynamic data structures (Linked 
List for example) in C is trivial isn't it ... I've never really been 
attracted to C++, don't know why TBHWY, I have a couple of books. Too 
busy earning a crust I suppose.


-- 
Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer,
treacherous feline and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun
GNU/Linux user #560883 - http://www.linuxcounter.net

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What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Saxo <jeti789@web.de> - 2014-01-16 04:35 -0800
  Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-16 13:05 +0000
    Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Saxo <jeti789@web.de> - 2014-01-16 07:05 -0800
      Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-16 16:11 +0000
    Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-16 20:39 +0000
      Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2014-01-16 16:18 -0500
        Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-16 21:50 +0000
          Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2014-01-16 17:27 -0500
    Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2014-01-17 10:28 -0600
      Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-17 18:08 +0000
        Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2014-01-17 15:44 -0600
          Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-18 02:09 +0000
            Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-17 22:15 -0500
              Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-18 17:21 +0000
                Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-18 12:41 -0500
                Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-18 19:46 +0000
          Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-18 03:56 -0400
            Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-18 08:58 +0000
        Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-18 02:02 +0000
          Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-17 22:17 -0500
            Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-18 17:36 +0000
          Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-28 10:13 -0400
            Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-28 16:21 +0000
              Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-28 22:09 +0000
      Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-18 20:02 -0500
  Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? leif.roar@invalid.com (Leif Roar Moldskred) - 2014-01-16 11:30 -0600
  Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-01-16 23:27 +0100
  Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-17 01:08 -0400
  Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-01-17 01:43 -0800
  Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Saxo <jeti789@web.de> - 2014-01-17 01:53 -0800
    Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2014-01-17 11:03 -0500
      Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2014-01-17 11:27 -0500
  Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-18 19:49 -0500
    Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-19 12:35 +0000
      Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-19 17:05 -0500
        Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-19 23:44 +0000
          Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-19 19:45 -0500
            Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2014-01-19 19:55 -0500
              Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2014-01-19 20:04 -0500
                Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-20 15:38 -0500
                Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2014-01-20 18:30 -0500
                Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-20 19:43 -0500
                Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2014-01-20 20:16 -0500
                Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2014-01-20 20:30 -0500
                Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-20 20:43 -0500
                Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2014-01-21 00:55 -0500
              Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-20 21:41 +0000
                Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-20 17:10 -0500
                Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-21 08:59 +0000
                Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? leif.roar@invalid.com (Leif Roar Moldskred) - 2014-01-21 04:03 -0600
                Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-21 11:53 +0000
                Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-21 22:09 +0000
                Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-21 22:05 +0000
            Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-20 21:39 +0000
              Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-20 17:21 -0500
                Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-21 22:17 +0000
  Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2014-01-19 22:34 -0500

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