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Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #27341
| From | Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.java.programmer |
| Subject | Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? |
| References | <428f8206-d4f7-4fe6-b93c-8f881b498be6@googlegroups.com> <99qdnVXamdWBRErPnZ2dnUVZ8mOdnZ2d@bt.com> <lbblnm$o3j$1@dont-email.me> <u6qdnds8oLoA7ETPnZ2dnUVZ8mGdnZ2d@bt.com> <lbc882$g2n$1@dont-email.me> |
| Message-ID | <tsqCu.257153$m_6.246817@fx25.iad> (permalink) |
| Organization | Public Usenet Newsgroup Access |
| Date | 2014-01-18 03:56 -0400 |
On 01/17/2014 05:44 PM, Joshua Cranmer đ§ wrote: > On 1/17/2014 12:08 PM, lipska the kat wrote: >> On 17/01/14 16:28, Joshua Cranmer đ§ wrote: >>> On 1/16/2014 7:05 AM, lipska the kat wrote: >>>> I can't think of a language that isn't ultimately implemented in C. >>> >>> Zero-cost exception handling cannot be expressed in (ISO) C code (or, at >>> the very least, not in a way that a C compiler will faithfully compile >>> it--in the situation that would arise, clang and gcc are both extremely >>> happy to mangle the code, even at -O0). Well, MSVC has __try/__catch, >>> but that's not ISO C. >> >> I've been reading up on this Zero-cost exception handling thing. >> It seems that while there may be no overhead for exception handlers if >> no exception is raised, the performance of exception propagation is >> poor. Maybe it should be called 'Zero-cost exception handling if no >> exception occurs'. It's not impossible though is it, it's a compiler >> thing so it *could* be implemented ... if the compiler supported it. >> It's not a fundamental shortcoming of the language per-se is it? > > Zero-cost exception handling simply cannot be expressed in ISO C code. > In essence, it requires building external unwind tables, which can be > thought of as "if an exception reaches between these two points, jump to > that location instead"--which requires some notion of computed goto > (more specifically, the ability to take the address of a label). gcc's > computed goto extension is not formally specified, but experimentation > with both clang and gcc indicate that taking the address of a label and > not jumping to it [in the same function] is insufficient to preserve the > existence of the code after that block, even when compiling at -O0. > > In general, C strongly believes that there exists only a single entry > point to every function; constructs where this notion doesn't really > hold true (exceptions, generators, coroutines, continuations) can't be > effectively expressed in C code. > [SNIP] With all due respect, Joshua. :-) Let's not get *too* deep here. I get that you're a computer scientist, but at this point I think we are totally not helping with answering the original question. :-) I've been a programmer since the '70's. I'd like to think I am even good at it. :-) Most people think I am. I even understood assembler for IBM and DEC chips way back when, knew machine code for a few chips, and learned microcode even. But the thing with you CS guys - all due respect - is that you get too theoretical when it's not needed. :-) Most of us professionals - I hope most of us - sorta know things like certain constructs can't be easily implemented in C. The operative word being "easily", and another being C is "low-level". I don't think we're helping the OP here by mentioning external unwind tables. AHS -- When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Saxo <jeti789@web.de> - 2014-01-16 04:35 -0800
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-16 13:05 +0000
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Saxo <jeti789@web.de> - 2014-01-16 07:05 -0800
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-16 16:11 +0000
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-16 20:39 +0000
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2014-01-16 16:18 -0500
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-16 21:50 +0000
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2014-01-16 17:27 -0500
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Joshua Cranmer đ§ <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2014-01-17 10:28 -0600
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-17 18:08 +0000
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Joshua Cranmer đ§ <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2014-01-17 15:44 -0600
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-18 02:09 +0000
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arne VajhĂžj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-17 22:15 -0500
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-18 17:21 +0000
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arne VajhĂžj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-18 12:41 -0500
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-18 19:46 +0000
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-18 03:56 -0400
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-18 08:58 +0000
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-18 02:02 +0000
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arne VajhĂžj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-17 22:17 -0500
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-18 17:36 +0000
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-28 10:13 -0400
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-28 16:21 +0000
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-28 22:09 +0000
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arne VajhĂžj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-18 20:02 -0500
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? leif.roar@invalid.com (Leif Roar Moldskred) - 2014-01-16 11:30 -0600
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-01-16 23:27 +0100
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-17 01:08 -0400
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2014-01-17 01:43 -0800
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Saxo <jeti789@web.de> - 2014-01-17 01:53 -0800
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2014-01-17 11:03 -0500
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2014-01-17 11:27 -0500
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arne VajhĂžj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-18 19:49 -0500
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-19 12:35 +0000
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arne VajhĂžj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-19 17:05 -0500
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-19 23:44 +0000
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arne VajhĂžj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-19 19:45 -0500
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2014-01-19 19:55 -0500
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2014-01-19 20:04 -0500
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arne VajhĂžj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-20 15:38 -0500
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2014-01-20 18:30 -0500
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arne VajhĂžj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-20 19:43 -0500
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2014-01-20 20:16 -0500
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2014-01-20 20:30 -0500
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arne VajhĂžj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-20 20:43 -0500
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2014-01-21 00:55 -0500
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-20 21:41 +0000
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arne VajhĂžj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-20 17:10 -0500
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-21 08:59 +0000
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? leif.roar@invalid.com (Leif Roar Moldskred) - 2014-01-21 04:03 -0600
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-21 11:53 +0000
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-21 22:09 +0000
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-21 22:05 +0000
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-20 21:39 +0000
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Arne VajhĂžj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-20 17:21 -0500
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-21 22:17 +0000
Re: What's the best non-JVM native language to look at? Jeff Higgins <jeff@invalid.invalid> - 2014-01-19 22:34 -0500
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