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Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints.

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On 12/31/2013 10:30 AM, Marcel Müller wrote:
> On 30.12.13 22.03, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
>>> First of all you need to mention what ORMs are designed for. They are
>>> intended to make SQL databases suitable for OO programming style and/or
>>> non-relational data models. At the end OO expressions are turned into
>>> SQL and then to an execution plan.
>>
>> Do ORMs "make SQL databases suitable for OO programming style"? In the
>> sense that an ORM presents tuples derived from RDBMS data as OO
>> programming language objects, that's true. But those initial datalayer
>> objects are frequently PODSs, or very close, and a number of OO styles
>> advocate keeping datalayer objects as essentially bundles of fields with
>> accessor methods.
>
> If I use ORM I expect that it can reasonably deal with deep structures.
> Normalizing the data model at object level is exactly not what I want.

Not entirely sure what you mean here, Marcel. In all seriousness I don't 
think I've ever seen anyone normalize or selectively denormalize a data 
model at "object level". Apart from that, I'm not quite sure how one 
would conveniently normalize data at the object level (presumably 
through the ORM) if the data showed up denormalized.

>> As to the other main function of an ORM, which is to present a
>> supposedly simpler way of accessing an RDBMS than JDBC, I think it's
>> arguable as to whether any of that exemplifies high levels of the OO
>> art: most of it (not just in Java) looks pretty procedural to me.
>
> Hmm, you see ORM not as a function extension but simply as a more
> convenient API to RDBMS. That's OK. But maybe _O_RM does not hit the
> nail on the head in this case.

Marcel, I've never thought that ORM (_O_RM as you emphasize it) 
precisely hits the nail on the head. You did hit the nail on the head 
when you described you I view ORMs: I see them as providing more 
convenient access to databases. I also believe that they are usually 
better than other models.

>>> You see, I am not really a friend of ORM. If a relational data model
>>> does not fit your needs, you first should consider to use a non
>>> relational database, rather than to normalize the data model to fit into
>>> a relational DB, and use an ORM to hide that from the application layer.
>>
>> I'll posit that a relational data model does very often fit.
>
> Well, maybe it fits because we mostly think in solutions rather than in
> requirements. This applies already to the customer requests. It is often
> difficult to distinguish between real requirements and creative ideas of
> the customer, how to solve his issues.

Marcel, if you come up with an answer to us developers mostly thinking 
about solutions, I applaud you. :-) I've been programming since my late 
teens, back in the '70's, and in my experience IT people almost 
invariably choose what they know: there are financial reasons for doing 
that, career reasons for doing that, and "I don't know about the other 
possibilities" reasons for doing that. Speaking to that last point, 
Marcel, if you can do better than the rest of us at figuring out how 
many "solutions" there are, I commend you.

[ SNIP ]

>
>> We've just
>> had a few generational cycles of young bucks who are trying to make
>> their name by challenging something that works. Use a non-relational
>> model when you've knowingly proved that there is no way of making your
>> data fit relational - don't jump on non-relational because it's
>> currently cool.
>
> Of course, that's always true.
>
> But from my experience success is not manly a question whether you have
> gone one way or the other. It is more a question if you have done this
> well and in you have enough experience with the tools you are using.
>

In a way you are proving my point, per your last sentence. Good or great 
coders make things work; they do even better if they have experience 
with the technology. There aren't that many superlative IT technologies 
out there, although there are many that are OK, and even more that are 
bad. A competent experienced developer can work with bad stuff and still 
produce solutions; a poor developer can use excellent software and fail.

By the way, before you tackle a project involving the combination of 
IBM, Oracle, and SAP software, consider suicide. I don't think any 
amount of experience helps with that.

[ SNIP ]
>
>>> There is one advantage. Adding attributes to the data model is quite
>>> simple with an ORM. No need to do redundant changes at many locations.
>>> But any document DB will provide this as well without the need for SQL
>>> and an ORM.
>>
>> By regarding your data as being document-oriented you already made a
>> fundamental decision that your data is semi-structured or
>> non-structured.
>
> Well, an XML is a document too, and most of the time it is well structured.
>

May I act as the child who called out the emperor for being naked? :-)

Tim Bray, who we all know, has made comments like this:

"Whether you like XML or not, we’re stuck with it for a long time. These 
days, the only new XML-based projects being started up are 
document-centric and publishing-oriented. Thank goodness, because that’s 
a much better fit than all the WS-* and Java EE config puke and so on 
that has given those three letters a bad name among so many programmers. 
XML for your document database is actually pretty hard to improve on."

"When XML was invented, it was the world’s only useful cross-platform 
cross-language cross-character-set cross-database data format. Where by 
“useful” I mean, “came with a pretty good suite of free open-source 
tools to do the basic things you needed.” ¶
That’s why it ended up being used for all sorts of wildly-inappropriate 
things."

"That I gave up working on Lark, the first ever production-ready XML 
parser, and still one of the fastest. It was maybe the best piece of 
software I ever wrote; but I couldn’t see the point when there were two 
other pretty good Java-language XML parsers out there in the wild. Oh well."

And Tim made a bit of a masturbatory blog post here: 
http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2006/04/18/XML-Grammar.

Point being, one of the authors of XML is a bit confused about XML. He's 
changed his views about it frequently. I've met the man; I even had the 
privilege of him telling me back in 1999 or so that indexing and 
searching XML was stupid.

XML is about as well-structured as the thoughts of the author, Marcel. 
It's also not really a wonderful means for describing data or documents, 
although Bray is in love with it. A structured flat file is better.

As to that first paragraph I quoted, it's a good thing that Tim is 6 
years older than me, and will soon retire. "WS-* and Java EE config 
puke"? The man has not ever seriously engaged in SOA, or J2EE/Java EE, 
but he's happy to deliver opinions like that. He's an idiot.

>>> Of course, if you are stuck with an SQL DB for some reason and you need
>>> to adapt to an OO application layer ORM might be a choice. But if the
>>> data model in the DB is not intended for ORM usage, you won't get happy,
>>> because there are almost always properties of the data model that are
>>> not correctly modeled in SQL.
>>
>> And most people who seize on a NoSQL solution were probably never
>> "stuck" with an SQL DB, they just got sucked in by the hype. I've heard
>> way more stories about projects where folks had to program
>> relational-like logic on top of a NoSQL DB to solve their problems than
>> I've heard anecdotes about people not being able to make things work
>> with an RDBMS.
>
> I do not really have experience with NoSQL databases. But I used non
> relational data models and in memory computing now for about 6 years in
> different projects. None of the projects failed, all are still live.
> Also we did not really save resources because of the decisions made. But
> from the code maintenance and from the performance point of view it was
> successful. Some change requests to the first of these projects were
> implemented by an apprentice in half an hour. This would have taken a
> few days by a qualified programmer, if we had chosen a relational data
> model.
>
> In the last project - a larger one - we have significant performance
> benefits. There is an adjacent third party application with a very
> similar data model from the customers point of view. (They are better
> with respect to inheritance, we are better with respect to deep
> structures but both can deal with polymorphism, table properties an so on.)
> They ended up with solution d). We use XML documents. Measurements show
> about three orders of magnitude performance difference, measured in time
> per object access. We have two CPU cores with <30% load if users make
> traffic. They have 16 CPU at 80-100% load if users make traffic. The
> number of objects and attributes is comparable. In fact the data is
> partially synchronized by interfaces. Both are Web applications. The
> number of users is comparable.
> OK, they have chosen PHP (used in an object oriented way), we have .NET
> 3.5. But this will not explain all the 3 orders of magnitude. Their
> system creates heavy load on the large attribute values table.
>
>
> Marcel

Silvio made some similar points, related to in-memory, the importance of 
language objects, and performance. You've added some extra observations.

Call me dubious about most of the points, however. Most people have 
recognized the limitations of NoSQL: CouchDB and Mongo were sexy, but 
they are limited. Amazon recognizes that NoSQL is limited, maybe the 
rest of us should.

I'm wondering about what exactly we are arguing about, though, Marcel. 
Referring to a paragraph of yours, I have myself seen people program 
relational-type logic on top of NoSQL datastores: this almost invariably 
happens. I've also heard about programmers who can't make things work 
with an RDBMS - you usually fire them.

With all due respect, I'll call bullshit about "Some change requests to 
the first of these projects were implemented by an apprentice in half an 
hour. This would have taken a few days by a qualified programmer, if we 
had chosen a relational data model." That's highly implausible.

AHS
-- 
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign:
that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.
-- Jonathan Swift

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ORMs comparisons/complaints. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2013-12-22 11:05 -0800
  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-22 14:46 -0500
  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-22 15:17 -0500
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-22 15:38 -0500
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-22 15:47 -0500
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-22 16:04 -0500
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-22 16:09 -0500
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-22 16:20 -0500
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-22 16:34 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Christoph Michael Becker <cmbecker69@arcor.de> - 2013-12-22 22:45 +0100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-12-22 17:33 -0800
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-23 12:54 +1100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-22 22:34 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-12-24 12:28 +0100
                c Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-24 08:49 -0500
                Re: c "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-25 09:35 +1100
                Re: c Graham Hobbs <ghobbs@cdpwise.net> - 2013-12-24 19:35 -0500
                Re: c Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-25 00:08 -0500
                Re: c lipska the kat <"lipskathekat at yahoo dot co dot uk"> - 2013-12-25 09:07 +0000
                Re: c "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-25 20:41 +1100
                [EOD] Re: c Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-12-25 11:15 +0100
                Re: [EOD] Re: c "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-25 23:29 +1100
                Re: [EOD] Re: c The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-25 12:48 +0000
                Re: c "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-25 17:46 +1100
                Re: c Graham Hobbs <ghobbs@cdpwise.net> - 2013-12-25 09:24 -0500
                Re: c Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 22:51 -0500
                Re: c Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-30 08:03 -0500
                Re: c Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-30 12:40 -0500
                Re: c Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-30 12:46 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-22 22:48 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-23 17:38 +1100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-23 07:57 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-24 10:11 +1100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-23 19:59 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-24 12:14 +1100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 23:02 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-30 15:40 +1100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> - 2013-12-22 20:48 -0800
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 22:46 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-30 14:54 +1100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 23:06 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-30 15:21 +1100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-30 08:04 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-30 12:32 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-30 12:47 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-31 08:23 +1100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Doug Miller <doug_at_milmac_dot_com@example.com> - 2013-12-30 19:45 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Ricardo Palomaes <rpmdisguise-java@nowhere.com> - 2013-12-30 19:20 +0100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-30 18:34 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-30 14:27 -0500
  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Marcel Müller <news.5.maazl@spamgourmet.org> - 2013-12-22 22:26 +0100
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 23:17 -0500
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Marcel Müller <news.5.maazl@spamgourmet.org> - 2013-12-31 11:12 +0100
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 21:35 -0500
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Marcel Müller <news.5.maazl@spamgourmet.org> - 2014-01-06 22:19 +0100
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-07 23:33 -0400
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. leif.roar@invalid.com (Leif Roar Moldskred) - 2014-01-08 00:37 -0600
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-30 17:03 -0400
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Marcel Müller <news.5.maazl@spamgourmet.org> - 2013-12-31 15:30 +0100
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-02 03:57 -0400
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-02 21:00 +0000
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 01:34 -0400
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 21:56 -0500
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-04 01:15 -0400
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-04 14:45 -0500
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-05 03:59 -0400
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-05 15:51 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-05 23:53 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-05 20:00 -0500
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-01-03 15:38 +0000
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-01-03 15:41 +0000
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 12:27 -0500
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 18:49 -0400
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-01-03 15:39 +0000
  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtrie@pixelmemory.us> - 2013-12-22 16:11 -0800
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 23:08 -0500
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-30 17:36 -0400
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-30 22:13 +0000
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-30 22:09 -0400
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-31 11:30 +0000
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-31 08:11 -0500
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-01-01 14:20 +0000
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-01 22:05 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2014-01-02 14:48 +1100
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-01 21:57 -0500
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-02 04:04 -0400
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-02 20:39 -0500
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 09:10 -0400
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Lars Enderin <lars.enderin@telia.com> - 2014-01-03 20:10 +0100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 18:34 -0400
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Lars Enderin <lars.enderin@telia.com> - 2014-01-04 07:02 +0100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2014-01-04 14:12 +0100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-04 13:53 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jukka Lahtinen <jtfjdehf@hotmail.com.invalid> - 2014-01-08 11:48 +0200
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-08 14:27 -0400
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-04 17:17 -0400
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-01 21:54 -0500
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-02 04:09 -0400
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-02 20:54 -0500
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 09:18 -0400
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 16:45 -0500
  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-23 13:25 +0100
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 23:27 -0500
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-30 14:38 +0100
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2013-12-30 09:36 -0800
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-31 01:26 +0100
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-01 22:23 -0500
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-01 22:19 -0500
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-01-02 12:36 +0100
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2014-01-02 09:36 -0800
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-01-02 21:06 +0100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-01-03 14:48 +0000
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-02 20:59 -0500
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-02 21:07 -0500
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-02 21:10 -0500
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-31 09:44 -0400
  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. leif.roar@invalid.com (Leif Roar Moldskred) - 2013-12-23 07:22 -0600
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 23:20 -0500
  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-25 13:56 -0400
  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. jebblue <n@n.nnn> - 2013-12-31 10:52 -0600
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Evan Platt <evan@theobvious.espphotography.com.invalid> - 2013-12-31 11:50 -0800
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-31 17:54 -0400
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. jebblue <n@n.nnn> - 2013-12-31 19:33 -0600
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-02 17:37 -0400
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-01 21:46 -0500
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2014-01-02 19:34 +1100
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-02 10:02 +0000
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2014-01-02 23:09 +1100
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-02 12:22 +0000
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2014-01-03 20:06 +1100
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-03 09:17 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2014-01-04 00:41 +1100
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. leif.roar@invalid.com (Leif Roar Moldskred) - 2014-01-03 06:41 -0600
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-01-03 14:56 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 12:12 -0400
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-03 19:30 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 16:04 -0400
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-03 22:30 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-05 23:44 -0400
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 16:28 -0500
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 16:08 -0500
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 16:22 -0400
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 00:29 -0400
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-03 09:08 +0000
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 10:18 -0400
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-03 15:24 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 17:10 -0400
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-04 10:02 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-04 16:02 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-04 17:27 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-04 12:46 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-04 19:51 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-04 19:24 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-04 14:08 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 16:39 -0500
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-02 20:43 -0500
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2014-01-03 20:19 +1100
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-03 09:23 +0000
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 11:34 -0400
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-03 15:58 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 16:01 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 17:44 -0400
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 15:43 -0500

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