Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #27152

Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints.

Date	2013-12-31 15:30 +0100
From	Marcel Müller <news.5.maazl@spamgourmet.org>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.java.programmer
Subject	Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints.
References	<%JGtu.29103$Wm1.26832@fx17.iad> <52b75900$0$9519$9b4e6d93@newsspool1.arcor-online.net> <Pclwu.107633$Rt7.104415@fx27.iad>
Message-ID	<52c2d520$0$6552$9b4e6d93@newsspool4.arcor-online.net> (permalink)
Organization	Arcor

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On 30.12.13 22.03, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
>> First of all you need to mention what ORMs are designed for. They are
>> intended to make SQL databases suitable for OO programming style and/or
>> non-relational data models. At the end OO expressions are turned into
>> SQL and then to an execution plan.
>
> Do ORMs "make SQL databases suitable for OO programming style"? In the
> sense that an ORM presents tuples derived from RDBMS data as OO
> programming language objects, that's true. But those initial datalayer
> objects are frequently PODSs, or very close, and a number of OO styles
> advocate keeping datalayer objects as essentially bundles of fields with
> accessor methods.

If I use ORM I expect that it can reasonably deal with deep structures. 
Normalizing the data model at object level is exactly not what I want.

> As to the other main function of an ORM, which is to present a
> supposedly simpler way of accessing an RDBMS than JDBC, I think it's
> arguable as to whether any of that exemplifies high levels of the OO
> art: most of it (not just in Java) looks pretty procedural to me.

Hmm, you see ORM not as a function extension but simply as a more 
convenient API to RDBMS. That's OK. But maybe _O_RM does not hit the 
nail on the head in this case.

>> You see, I am not really a friend of ORM. If a relational data model
>> does not fit your needs, you first should consider to use a non
>> relational database, rather than to normalize the data model to fit into
>> a relational DB, and use an ORM to hide that from the application layer.
>
> I'll posit that a relational data model does very often fit.

Well, maybe it fits because we mostly think in solutions rather than in 
requirements. This applies already to the customer requests. It is often 
difficult to distinguish between real requirements and creative ideas of 
the customer, how to solve his issues.

If you get two steps back, then there are quite often requirements that 
do not fit well into RDBMS. I.e. I had almost no project where not at 
least one property of some object had a 1:n relation. I do not talk 
about classical relations like costomer-supplier here - they fit well 
into RDBMS. I talk about properties that can have more than one value.

Case #1: enumeration types with multiple selections.
To put them into a RDBMS you need either
a) introduce a new table,
b) serialize them into a string or bit vector or
c) put each value into a separate column.
Each choice has it's disadvantages. a) adds complexity to SQL (many 
JOINs, difficult updates - OK, here ORMs can really help) and has a 
large overhead for small integral types, because of the foreign keys and 
the row management of the DBMS. c) and b) only works if the number of 
different values is finite by design. b) cannot be reasonably indexed. 
c) makes it really complicated to add a new value.
Within a OO data model I simply add an array or a set to the class and I 
am done.

Case #2: multiple values without a limited set (e.g ingredients, allergens)
Here can only use solution a) from above in the RDBMS. If you have a 
dozen properties of this type things get really worse. Or you end up with
d) a transposed data model.
But d) is even worse with respect to indices and does not provide type 
safety because the RDBMS can't handle polymorphism directly.
I also have seen solutions with
e) one transposed table for each data type.
Now the RDBMS is finally raped.

> We've just
> had a few generational cycles of young bucks who are trying to make
> their name by challenging something that works. Use a non-relational
> model when you've knowingly proved that there is no way of making your
> data fit relational - don't jump on non-relational because it's
> currently cool.

Of course, that's always true.

But from my experience success is not manly a question whether you have 
gone one way or the other. It is more a question if you have done this 
well and in you have enough experience with the tools you are using.

>> ORMs are known to slow things down. I don't think that this is true in
>> general.
>
> Err, if it's not true in general, then it's maybe not usually true? So
> it's "known" by whom?

I think, I used the wrong wording. Let's call it a preconception.

>> There is one advantage. Adding attributes to the data model is quite
>> simple with an ORM. No need to do redundant changes at many locations.
>> But any document DB will provide this as well without the need for SQL
>> and an ORM.
>
> By regarding your data as being document-oriented you already made a
> fundamental decision that your data is semi-structured or
> non-structured.

Well, an XML is a document too, and most of the time it is well structured.

>> Of course, if you are stuck with an SQL DB for some reason and you need
>> to adapt to an OO application layer ORM might be a choice. But if the
>> data model in the DB is not intended for ORM usage, you won't get happy,
>> because there are almost always properties of the data model that are
>> not correctly modeled in SQL.
>
> And most people who seize on a NoSQL solution were probably never
> "stuck" with an SQL DB, they just got sucked in by the hype. I've heard
> way more stories about projects where folks had to program
> relational-like logic on top of a NoSQL DB to solve their problems than
> I've heard anecdotes about people not being able to make things work
> with an RDBMS.

I do not really have experience with NoSQL databases. But I used non 
relational data models and in memory computing now for about 6 years in 
different projects. None of the projects failed, all are still live. 
Also we did not really save resources because of the decisions made. But 
from the code maintenance and from the performance point of view it was 
successful. Some change requests to the first of these projects were 
implemented by an apprentice in half an hour. This would have taken a 
few days by a qualified programmer, if we had chosen a relational data 
model.

In the last project - a larger one - we have significant performance 
benefits. There is an adjacent third party application with a very 
similar data model from the customers point of view. (They are better 
with respect to inheritance, we are better with respect to deep 
structures but both can deal with polymorphism, table properties an so on.)
They ended up with solution d). We use XML documents. Measurements show 
about three orders of magnitude performance difference, measured in time 
per object access. We have two CPU cores with <30% load if users make 
traffic. They have 16 CPU at 80-100% load if users make traffic. The 
number of objects and attributes is comparable. In fact the data is 
partially synchronized by interfaces. Both are Web applications. The 
number of users is comparable.
OK, they have chosen PHP (used in an object oriented way), we have .NET 
3.5. But this will not explain all the 3 orders of magnitude. Their 
system creates heavy load on the large attribute values table.

Marcel

Thread

ORMs comparisons/complaints. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2013-12-22 11:05 -0800
  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-22 14:46 -0500
  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-22 15:17 -0500
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-22 15:38 -0500
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-22 15:47 -0500
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-22 16:04 -0500
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-22 16:09 -0500
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-22 16:20 -0500
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-22 16:34 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Christoph Michael Becker <cmbecker69@arcor.de> - 2013-12-22 22:45 +0100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-12-22 17:33 -0800
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-23 12:54 +1100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-22 22:34 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-12-24 12:28 +0100
                c Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-24 08:49 -0500
                Re: c "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-25 09:35 +1100
                Re: c Graham Hobbs <ghobbs@cdpwise.net> - 2013-12-24 19:35 -0500
                Re: c Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-25 00:08 -0500
                Re: c lipska the kat <"lipskathekat at yahoo dot co dot uk"> - 2013-12-25 09:07 +0000
                Re: c "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-25 20:41 +1100
                [EOD] Re: c Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-12-25 11:15 +0100
                Re: [EOD] Re: c "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-25 23:29 +1100
                Re: [EOD] Re: c The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-25 12:48 +0000
                Re: c "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-25 17:46 +1100
                Re: c Graham Hobbs <ghobbs@cdpwise.net> - 2013-12-25 09:24 -0500
                Re: c Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 22:51 -0500
                Re: c Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-30 08:03 -0500
                Re: c Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-30 12:40 -0500
                Re: c Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-30 12:46 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-22 22:48 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-23 17:38 +1100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-23 07:57 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-24 10:11 +1100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-23 19:59 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-24 12:14 +1100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 23:02 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-30 15:40 +1100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> - 2013-12-22 20:48 -0800
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 22:46 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-30 14:54 +1100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 23:06 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-30 15:21 +1100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-30 08:04 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-30 12:32 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-30 12:47 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-31 08:23 +1100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Doug Miller <doug_at_milmac_dot_com@example.com> - 2013-12-30 19:45 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Ricardo Palomaes <rpmdisguise-java@nowhere.com> - 2013-12-30 19:20 +0100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-30 18:34 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-30 14:27 -0500
  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Marcel Müller <news.5.maazl@spamgourmet.org> - 2013-12-22 22:26 +0100
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 23:17 -0500
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Marcel Müller <news.5.maazl@spamgourmet.org> - 2013-12-31 11:12 +0100
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 21:35 -0500
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Marcel Müller <news.5.maazl@spamgourmet.org> - 2014-01-06 22:19 +0100
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-07 23:33 -0400
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. leif.roar@invalid.com (Leif Roar Moldskred) - 2014-01-08 00:37 -0600
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-30 17:03 -0400
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Marcel Müller <news.5.maazl@spamgourmet.org> - 2013-12-31 15:30 +0100
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-02 03:57 -0400
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-02 21:00 +0000
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 01:34 -0400
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 21:56 -0500
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-04 01:15 -0400
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-04 14:45 -0500
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-05 03:59 -0400
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-05 15:51 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-05 23:53 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-05 20:00 -0500
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-01-03 15:38 +0000
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-01-03 15:41 +0000
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 12:27 -0500
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 18:49 -0400
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-01-03 15:39 +0000
  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtrie@pixelmemory.us> - 2013-12-22 16:11 -0800
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 23:08 -0500
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-30 17:36 -0400
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-30 22:13 +0000
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-30 22:09 -0400
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-31 11:30 +0000
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-31 08:11 -0500
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-01-01 14:20 +0000
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-01 22:05 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2014-01-02 14:48 +1100
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-01 21:57 -0500
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-02 04:04 -0400
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-02 20:39 -0500
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 09:10 -0400
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Lars Enderin <lars.enderin@telia.com> - 2014-01-03 20:10 +0100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 18:34 -0400
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Lars Enderin <lars.enderin@telia.com> - 2014-01-04 07:02 +0100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2014-01-04 14:12 +0100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-04 13:53 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jukka Lahtinen <jtfjdehf@hotmail.com.invalid> - 2014-01-08 11:48 +0200
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-08 14:27 -0400
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-04 17:17 -0400
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-01 21:54 -0500
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-02 04:09 -0400
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-02 20:54 -0500
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 09:18 -0400
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 16:45 -0500
  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-23 13:25 +0100
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 23:27 -0500
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-30 14:38 +0100
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2013-12-30 09:36 -0800
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-31 01:26 +0100
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-01 22:23 -0500
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-01 22:19 -0500
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-01-02 12:36 +0100
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2014-01-02 09:36 -0800
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-01-02 21:06 +0100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-01-03 14:48 +0000
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-02 20:59 -0500
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-02 21:07 -0500
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-02 21:10 -0500
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-31 09:44 -0400
  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. leif.roar@invalid.com (Leif Roar Moldskred) - 2013-12-23 07:22 -0600
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 23:20 -0500
  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-25 13:56 -0400
  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. jebblue <n@n.nnn> - 2013-12-31 10:52 -0600
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Evan Platt <evan@theobvious.espphotography.com.invalid> - 2013-12-31 11:50 -0800
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-31 17:54 -0400
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. jebblue <n@n.nnn> - 2013-12-31 19:33 -0600
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-02 17:37 -0400
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-01 21:46 -0500
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2014-01-02 19:34 +1100
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-02 10:02 +0000
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2014-01-02 23:09 +1100
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-02 12:22 +0000
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2014-01-03 20:06 +1100
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-03 09:17 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2014-01-04 00:41 +1100
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. leif.roar@invalid.com (Leif Roar Moldskred) - 2014-01-03 06:41 -0600
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-01-03 14:56 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 12:12 -0400
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-03 19:30 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 16:04 -0400
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-03 22:30 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-05 23:44 -0400
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 16:28 -0500
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 16:08 -0500
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 16:22 -0400
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 00:29 -0400
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-03 09:08 +0000
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 10:18 -0400
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-03 15:24 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 17:10 -0400
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-04 10:02 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-04 16:02 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-04 17:27 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-04 12:46 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-04 19:51 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-04 19:24 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-04 14:08 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 16:39 -0500
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-02 20:43 -0500
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2014-01-03 20:19 +1100
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-03 09:23 +0000
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 11:34 -0400
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-03 15:58 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 16:01 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 17:44 -0400
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 15:43 -0500

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