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Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #27148

Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints.

Date 2013-12-31 11:12 +0100
From Marcel Müller <news.5.maazl@spamgourmet.org>
Newsgroups comp.lang.java.programmer
Subject Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints.
References <%JGtu.29103$Wm1.26832@fx17.iad> <52b75900$0$9519$9b4e6d93@newsspool1.arcor-online.net> <52c0f3dc$0$298$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>
Message-ID <52c29885$0$9508$9b4e6d93@newsspool1.arcor-online.net> (permalink)
Organization Arcor

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On 30.12.13 05.17, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> You see, I am not really a friend of ORM. If a relational data model
>> does not fit your needs, you first should consider to use a non
>> relational database, rather than to normalize the data model to fit into
>> a relational DB, and use an ORM to hide that from the application layer.
>
> Yes and no.
>
> If you could get non-relational databases with same transactional
> support, same tools, same vendor support etc..
>
> And if all access to the database is OO based.
>
> Then that would be obvious.
>
> But the non-relational databases has not reached the same maturity level
> (as a summary term for the above) as relational databases.

You are right. We are in an intermediate situation where relational DBMS 
are integrated into backup, service and management processes by far 
better than the new OO or document based DBMS. And of course, the 
administrators have experience with them.
Because of this I did the last larger project still with MSSQL (in 
snapshot isolation mode). But the data model did not depend on the DB. I 
simply store XML documents with revision information. In fact the DBMS 
backend was activated about 4 month after the project started. So when 
the time is come we could easily move to Mongo or whatever.

What I miss by far more is a standard, how to use NoSQL DBMS. So anybody 
writes its own framework with its own advantages and disadvantages. I.e. 
we had to write a query optimizer and an index provider. Things that 
relational DBMS have at a highly optimized level. Unfortunately they are 
almost unusable if the data model does not fit to them. And with ORM 
often only a few aspects of the DBMS performance reach the application 
level. Others mainly help to solve the problems that did not exist before.


> And it is common to have the same databases used by modern OO based
> software also to be used by non-OO legacy software (like 20 year
> old COBOL programs).

COBOL, dark chapter - from the present point of view. And SAP extended 
the COBOL style by ABAP.

[performance]
> It should be mandatory for developers writing code using ORM to do some
> testing with the logging of actual SQL statements executed turned on. It
> reveals what is going on without having to know so much about the inside
> of the ORM.

Well, true, but from the programmers point of view, I do not always want 
to go that deep into the framework. This is like digging down to the 
assembler level in former times.
However, at least when doing function programming (without a functional 
language) performance checks have to be done by some means or other. As 
rule of thumb the number of queries placed on the backend should be 
finite on each user interaction, i.e. no queries in a loop. If you 
follow this rule reasonable indices and the optimizer can do their job 
usually.


>> Of course, if you are stuck with an SQL DB for some reason and you need
>> to adapt to an OO application layer ORM might be a choice. But if the
>> data model in the DB is not intended for ORM usage, you won't get happy,
>> because there are almost always properties of the data model that are
>> not correctly modeled in SQL.
>
> It seems as if very large parts of the Java, .NET and Ruby worlds
> are able to make it work.

There is always a way (with unlimited resources :-) ). But the question 
is about maintainability and TCO. And the answer is not always clear.
Even small bugs or missing features in the ORM layer may result in 
fragile workarounds that collapse on small code changes.

I would prefer when the investigation of standards around NoSQL over 
driving ORM to the limits. The first has a future, the latter is an 
intermediate solution. Of course, both have their places for now.


Marcel

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Thread

ORMs comparisons/complaints. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2013-12-22 11:05 -0800
  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-22 14:46 -0500
  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-22 15:17 -0500
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-22 15:38 -0500
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-22 15:47 -0500
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-22 16:04 -0500
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-22 16:09 -0500
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-22 16:20 -0500
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-22 16:34 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Christoph Michael Becker <cmbecker69@arcor.de> - 2013-12-22 22:45 +0100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. markspace <markspace@nospam.nospam> - 2013-12-22 17:33 -0800
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-23 12:54 +1100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-22 22:34 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-12-24 12:28 +0100
                c Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-24 08:49 -0500
                Re: c "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-25 09:35 +1100
                Re: c Graham Hobbs <ghobbs@cdpwise.net> - 2013-12-24 19:35 -0500
                Re: c Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-25 00:08 -0500
                Re: c lipska the kat <"lipskathekat at yahoo dot co dot uk"> - 2013-12-25 09:07 +0000
                Re: c "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-25 20:41 +1100
                [EOD] Re: c Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-12-25 11:15 +0100
                Re: [EOD] Re: c "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-25 23:29 +1100
                Re: [EOD] Re: c The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-25 12:48 +0000
                Re: c "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-25 17:46 +1100
                Re: c Graham Hobbs <ghobbs@cdpwise.net> - 2013-12-25 09:24 -0500
                Re: c Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 22:51 -0500
                Re: c Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-30 08:03 -0500
                Re: c Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-30 12:40 -0500
                Re: c Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-30 12:46 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-22 22:48 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-23 17:38 +1100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-23 07:57 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-24 10:11 +1100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-23 19:59 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-24 12:14 +1100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 23:02 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-30 15:40 +1100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> - 2013-12-22 20:48 -0800
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 22:46 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-30 14:54 +1100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 23:06 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-30 15:21 +1100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-30 08:04 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-30 12:32 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-30 12:47 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-31 08:23 +1100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Doug Miller <doug_at_milmac_dot_com@example.com> - 2013-12-30 19:45 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Ricardo Palomaes <rpmdisguise-java@nowhere.com> - 2013-12-30 19:20 +0100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-30 18:34 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-30 14:27 -0500
  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Marcel Müller <news.5.maazl@spamgourmet.org> - 2013-12-22 22:26 +0100
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 23:17 -0500
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Marcel Müller <news.5.maazl@spamgourmet.org> - 2013-12-31 11:12 +0100
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 21:35 -0500
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Marcel Müller <news.5.maazl@spamgourmet.org> - 2014-01-06 22:19 +0100
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-07 23:33 -0400
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. leif.roar@invalid.com (Leif Roar Moldskred) - 2014-01-08 00:37 -0600
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-30 17:03 -0400
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Marcel Müller <news.5.maazl@spamgourmet.org> - 2013-12-31 15:30 +0100
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-02 03:57 -0400
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-02 21:00 +0000
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 01:34 -0400
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 21:56 -0500
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-04 01:15 -0400
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-04 14:45 -0500
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-05 03:59 -0400
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-05 15:51 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-05 23:53 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-05 20:00 -0500
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-01-03 15:38 +0000
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-01-03 15:41 +0000
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 12:27 -0500
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 18:49 -0400
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-01-03 15:39 +0000
  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtrie@pixelmemory.us> - 2013-12-22 16:11 -0800
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 23:08 -0500
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-30 17:36 -0400
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-30 22:13 +0000
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-30 22:09 -0400
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-31 11:30 +0000
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-31 08:11 -0500
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-01-01 14:20 +0000
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-01 22:05 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2014-01-02 14:48 +1100
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-01 21:57 -0500
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-02 04:04 -0400
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-02 20:39 -0500
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 09:10 -0400
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Lars Enderin <lars.enderin@telia.com> - 2014-01-03 20:10 +0100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 18:34 -0400
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Lars Enderin <lars.enderin@telia.com> - 2014-01-04 07:02 +0100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2014-01-04 14:12 +0100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-04 13:53 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jukka Lahtinen <jtfjdehf@hotmail.com.invalid> - 2014-01-08 11:48 +0200
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-08 14:27 -0400
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-04 17:17 -0400
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-01 21:54 -0500
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-02 04:09 -0400
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-02 20:54 -0500
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 09:18 -0400
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 16:45 -0500
  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-23 13:25 +0100
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 23:27 -0500
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-30 14:38 +0100
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2013-12-30 09:36 -0800
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-31 01:26 +0100
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-01 22:23 -0500
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-01 22:19 -0500
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-01-02 12:36 +0100
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2014-01-02 09:36 -0800
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-01-02 21:06 +0100
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-01-03 14:48 +0000
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-02 20:59 -0500
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-02 21:07 -0500
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-02 21:10 -0500
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-31 09:44 -0400
  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. leif.roar@invalid.com (Leif Roar Moldskred) - 2013-12-23 07:22 -0600
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 23:20 -0500
  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-25 13:56 -0400
  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. jebblue <n@n.nnn> - 2013-12-31 10:52 -0600
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Evan Platt <evan@theobvious.espphotography.com.invalid> - 2013-12-31 11:50 -0800
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-31 17:54 -0400
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. jebblue <n@n.nnn> - 2013-12-31 19:33 -0600
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-02 17:37 -0400
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-01 21:46 -0500
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2014-01-02 19:34 +1100
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-02 10:02 +0000
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2014-01-02 23:09 +1100
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-02 12:22 +0000
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2014-01-03 20:06 +1100
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-03 09:17 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2014-01-04 00:41 +1100
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. leif.roar@invalid.com (Leif Roar Moldskred) - 2014-01-03 06:41 -0600
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-01-03 14:56 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 12:12 -0400
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-03 19:30 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 16:04 -0400
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-03 22:30 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-05 23:44 -0400
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 16:28 -0500
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 16:08 -0500
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 16:22 -0400
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 00:29 -0400
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-03 09:08 +0000
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 10:18 -0400
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-03 15:24 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 17:10 -0400
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-04 10:02 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-04 16:02 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-04 17:27 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-04 12:46 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2014-01-04 19:51 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-04 19:24 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-04 14:08 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 16:39 -0500
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-02 20:43 -0500
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2014-01-03 20:19 +1100
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-03 09:23 +0000
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 11:34 -0400
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. lipska the kat <lipskathekat@example.com> - 2014-01-03 15:58 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 16:01 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 17:44 -0400
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 15:43 -0500

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