Re: New to the group

Path	csiph.com!news.mixmin.net!aioe.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From	"Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: New to the group
Date	Wed, 30 Sep 2015 21:03:30 -0400
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
Lines	64
Message-ID	<op.x5syj4juyfako5@localhost> (permalink)
References	<4f5b572c-04ae-433e-bed0-9d7b754bc27b@googlegroups.com> <aaa736c4-0c03-4330-b7c2-271233d3d8f9@googlegroups.com> <muffhj$k1n$1@dont-email.me> <4340f7c0-4267-494e-988f-bdf6d3c8af0f@googlegroups.com> <NIudncrvPvOGDZbLnZ2dnUU7-LednZ2d@supernews.com> <mug52t$gss$1@dont-email.me> <97f1036b-2ca0-488f-a630-566994f8e58d@googlegroups.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host	n4wpt9zq8xR26Ttf9mo2BA.user.speranza.aioe.org
Mime-Version	1.0
Content-Type	text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Content-Transfer-Encoding	7bit
X-Complaints-To	abuse@aioe.org
User-Agent	Opera Mail/12.16 (Linux)
X-Notice	Filtered by postfilter v. 0.8.2
Xref	csiph.com comp.lang.forth:42291

Show key headers only | View raw

On Wed, 30 Sep 2015 19:21:04 -0400, <hughaguilar96@gmail.com> wrote:

> The word "ambiguous" doesn't belong in a language standard, because
> it doesn't standardize anything. Errors should not result in ambiguous
> conditions --- they should be handled in a consistent well-defined manner.

Exactly.

Such situations are potentially exploitable by hackers depending on
what occurs for a specific Forth the "ambiguous" situation.  The
result is that to ensure safety _all_ such situations should be
blocked, which most likely will cause Forth programs using established
historical Forth behaviors to crash, halt, hang, or function incorrectly.

Didn't you learn this already with your ANS experience?

> The situation is actually much worse than Chris realizes. Over 50
> of the words in the standard have this sentence in their definition:
> "Interpretation semantics for this word are undefined."

Yes, you almost need a STATE-aware Forth with another word like
IMMEDIATE or SMUDGE just to mark the "over 50" words with undefined
execution semantics.  How else can you selectively enable and disable
execution semantics for these words? ...  Anton is bound to respond
to this by stating that a STATE-aware Forth is not required.

> Rather than define this as an error however, the ANS-Forth document
> defines it as "undefined" (section 6.1.1700 above), and "undefined"
> is just another word for "ambiguous" because it doesn't standardize
> anything.

So, you disagree with Ms. Rather on Forth-83 being a bad standard?
It eliminated "ambiguous" situations by specifically defining the
integer sizes, etc.

> Now the weirdness deepens! We have section 4.1.2 with the ominous
> heading: "Ambiguous Conditions." One of the ambiguous conditions
> is: "attempting to obtain the execution token, (e.g., with 6.1.0070 ',
> 6.1.1550 FIND, etc.) of a definition with undefined interpretation
> semantics."  What this means is that using tick or FIND on a word
> such as IF is an ambiguous condition, and anything can happen.

With "over 50" such words with "ambiguous" conditions, you'd really
have to wonder what the point of having a mandatory CORE and CORE EXT
set of words is, wouldn't you? ...

With roughly 133 CORE and 46 CORE EXT words, that would mean only
62% of CORE words and only 72% of CORE and CORE EXT are useable
interactively.

It would almost seem like they don't want you to use Forth
interactively anymore Hugh ...

I'm just waiting for you to stop ranting about Forth and
embrace C.  Supposedly, you already programmed in C before.
So, I don't know why the delay in your conversion remains.

Rod Pemberton

-- 
Just how many texting and calendar apps does humanity need?
Just how many food articles from neurotic millenials do we need?

Thread

New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-26 15:17 -0700
  Re: New to the group mentificium@gmail.com - 2015-09-26 17:35 -0700
  Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-26 21:16 -0700
    Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-27 07:27 -0700
      Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-27 14:43 -0400
        Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-27 13:05 -0700
        Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-09-27 12:57 -1000
        Re: New to the group Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-09-27 17:00 -0700
          Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-27 17:16 -0700
            Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-27 20:31 -0400
            Re: New to the group jfong@ms4.hinet.net - 2015-09-27 18:57 -0700
              Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-27 19:37 -0700
                Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-27 20:53 -0700
                Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-09-27 19:02 -1000
                Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-27 23:33 -0700
                Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-28 04:51 -0700
                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-28 12:39 -0400
                Re: New to the group Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2015-09-28 14:29 +0200
                Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-28 07:18 -0700
                Re: New to the group foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2015-09-28 08:07 -0700
                Re: New to the group Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2015-09-28 17:23 +0200
                Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-28 11:16 -0700
                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-28 14:25 -0400
                Re: New to the group anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-09-29 09:05 +0000
                Re: New to the group Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2015-09-28 20:31 +0200
                Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-28 13:20 -0700
                Re: New to the group Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2015-09-28 22:52 +0200
                Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-28 16:40 -0700
                Re: New to the group Alfred Singlestone <vitonis@gmail.com> - 2015-09-28 08:41 -0700
                Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-09-28 11:41 -1000
                Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-28 21:33 -0700
                Re: New to the group jfong@ms4.hinet.net - 2015-09-28 19:13 -0700
                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 00:51 -0400
                Re: New to the group jfong@ms4.hinet.net - 2015-09-29 18:26 -0700
                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 21:55 -0400
                Re: New to the group Jan Coombs <Jan-54 <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com>> - 2015-09-30 08:29 +0100
                Re: New to the group jfong@ms4.hinet.net - 2015-09-29 18:52 -0700
                Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-29 00:29 -0700
                Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 04:40 -0700
                Re: New to the group Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 05:24 -0700
                Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 07:33 -0700
                Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-29 14:11 -0700
                Re: New to the group "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-29 16:46 +0000
                Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-29 14:15 -0700
                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 17:34 -0400
                Re: New to the group "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-30 00:07 +0000
    Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-27 10:54 -0700
  Re: New to the group Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-09-26 22:37 -0700
    Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-27 10:51 -0700
  Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 17:15 -0700
    Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 21:58 -0400
      Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 22:03 -0700
        Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-09-29 21:32 -1000
          Re: New to the group Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-09-30 09:06 +0100
            Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-09-30 08:58 -1000
              Re: New to the group Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-09-30 23:55 -0700
                Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-09-30 21:28 -1000
                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-01 08:25 -0400
                Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-01 09:33 -0700
            Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-30 16:21 -0700
              Re: New to the group "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-09-30 21:03 -0400
                Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-09-30 19:34 -1000
                Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-30 23:47 -0700
                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-01 08:31 -0400
                Re: New to the group "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-10-02 00:30 -0400
                Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-01 19:22 -1000
                Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-01 23:52 -0700
                Re: New to the group Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 01:52 -0700
                Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-02 08:36 -1000
                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 17:00 -0400
                Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 14:46 -0700
                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 18:10 -0400
                Re: New to the group Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-02 16:08 -0700
                Re: New to the group "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-10-02 20:44 -0400
                Re: New to the group David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2015-10-31 06:54 -0400
                Re: New to the group "Rod Pemberton" <too@zxcvfeqad.cdm> - 2015-11-02 02:34 -0500
                Re: New to the group David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2015-12-22 06:45 -0500
                Re: New to the group "Rod Pemberton" <too@zxcvfeqad.cdm> - 2015-11-02 02:34 -0500
                Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-02 15:16 -1000
                Re: New to the group Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-02 18:21 -0700
                Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-02 15:38 -1000
                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 22:13 -0400
                Re: New to the group Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-10-03 22:24 +0100
                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 17:33 -0400
          Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-30 17:00 -0700
            Re: New to the group "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-09-30 20:38 -0400
            Re: New to the group Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2015-10-02 14:37 -0400
              Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 17:01 -0400
              Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-02 23:35 -0700
        Re: New to the group "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-09-30 18:11 -0400
          Re: New to the group Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2015-10-01 02:13 +0200
    Re: New to the group Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-09-30 08:38 +0100
      Re: New to the group Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2015-09-30 10:58 -0400
  Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-01 06:04 -0700
    Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-01 09:46 -0400
    Re: New to the group anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-08 06:07 +0000
      Re: New to the group Alfred Singlestone <vitonis@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 04:04 -0700
        Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 10:29 -0400
        Re: New to the group anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-09 15:30 +0000
  Re: New to the group lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 00:19 -0700
    Re: New to the group visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-10-03 17:01 -0700
    Re: New to the group anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-08 06:38 +0000
      Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-07 21:15 -1000
        Minimal wordset (was: New to the group) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-08 13:39 +0000
          Re: Minimal wordset (was: New to the group) JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-10-08 08:13 -0700
            Re: Minimal wordset (was: New to the group) Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 00:55 -0700
              Re: Minimal wordset Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-10-09 10:43 +0200
                Re: Minimal wordset Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 06:56 -0700
                Re: Minimal wordset Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-10-09 19:44 +0200
                Re: Minimal wordset Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-09 14:02 -0700
                Re: Minimal wordset Jan Coombs <Jan-54 <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com>> - 2015-10-10 09:44 +0100
                Re: Minimal wordset anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-10 11:36 +0000
                Re: Minimal wordset lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 08:40 -0700
                Re: Minimal wordset Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-10-09 19:53 +0200
                Re: Minimal wordset lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 11:22 -0700
                Re: Minimal wordset JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-10-09 11:33 -0700
                Re: Minimal wordset Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-10-09 20:38 +0200
                Re: Minimal wordset stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-10-09 20:56 +0000
                Re: Minimal wordset rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-01 20:10 -0500
                Re: Minimal wordset Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2015-11-02 03:05 +0100
                Re: Minimal wordset "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-01 16:08 -1000
                Re: Minimal wordset stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-11-02 09:35 +0000
                Re: Minimal wordset anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-02 12:42 +0000
                Re: Minimal wordset humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 23:22 -0800
                Re: Minimal wordset rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-03 11:25 -0500
                Re: Minimal wordset stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-11-03 19:36 +0000
                Re: Minimal wordset "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2015-11-08 12:56 +1100
                Re: Minimal wordset stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-11-08 16:14 +0000
                Re: Minimal wordset "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2015-11-09 11:55 +1100
                Re: Minimal wordset anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-02 09:41 +0000
                Re: Minimal wordset rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-03 11:29 -0500
                Re: Minimal wordset anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-03 17:01 +0000
                Re: Minimal wordset JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-10-09 11:27 -0700
            Re: Minimal wordset (was: New to the group) "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-10-09 23:11 -0400
              Re: Minimal wordset (was: New to the group) Jan Coombs <Jan-54 <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com>> - 2015-10-10 08:38 +0100
      Re: New to the group dunno <dunno@dunno.dunno> - 2015-10-14 23:14 +0000
        Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-14 16:21 -1000
        Re: New to the group anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-15 08:46 +0000
  Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 09:23 -0700
    Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-03 09:19 -1000
  Re: New to the group lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-08 05:24 -0700
    Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-08 08:22 -1000
      Re: New to the group lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 08:37 -0700
  Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-31 10:44 -0700

csiph-web