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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #42544

Re: Minimal wordset

Date 2015-10-10 09:44 +0100
From Jan Coombs <Jan-54 <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com>>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: Minimal wordset
Message-ID <20151010094439.59e75621@TP-T500> (permalink)
References (6 earlier) <a1db396a-b701-4048-a838-fad907813bec@googlegroups.com> <86k2qwig8q.fsf@vps34351.public.cloudvps.com> <1ecbed8f-0c89-4b56-9795-a31402f894b2@googlegroups.com> <86fv1khr79.fsf@vps34351.public.cloudvps.com> <87oag74uxf.fsf@jester.gateway.sonic.net>

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On Fri, 09 Oct 2015 14:02:36 -0700
Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> This thing about minimal wordset comes up all the time though,
> and I usually don't understand it.  It's cute as a thought
> exercise (like here) but at other times (eforth) the
> implementation slows down without gaining porting ease. 

If you are building a Forth engine in hardware, then eliminating
instructions can make opcodes more compact, and reduce the size
of the chip. Both these support faster system operation. 

Also, an inverting logic primitive like NAND is faster in real
transistors, and conveniently suports other bitwise logic. [2]

But eforth does not eliminate OR, because this would slow system
running, and the code for OR is almost identical to the code for
AND XOR +, so there is little extra design or testing to do. 

Also, eforth does not have NAND as a potential primitive factor
for the above because it is more complex to write due to no
support on most micros, and there is little demand for it. [1] 

So, as you note, the minimal wordset thing is most often just
cute thought exercises, but if you were designing a better
moustrap, then this could become challenging and engaging. 

Jan Coombs
-- 
email valid, else fix dots and hyphen
jan4clf2014@murrayhyphenmicroftdotcodotuk

[1] eForth Overview, page 8 
http://www.exemark.com/FORTH/eForthOverviewv5.pdf

[2] \ nand-for-everything


: nand ( a b -- c )  AND INVERT  ;


: mINVERT ( a -- ~a )  -1 nand ;

: mOR ( a b -- a|b )  INVERT SWAP INVERT nand  ;

: mAND ( a b -- a&b )  nand INVERT ;

: mXOR ( a b -- a^b )  
  2DUP nand  
  DUP 
  ROT nand 
  -ROT nand
  nand  ;

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New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-26 15:17 -0700
  Re: New to the group mentificium@gmail.com - 2015-09-26 17:35 -0700
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        Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-09-27 12:57 -1000
        Re: New to the group Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-09-27 17:00 -0700
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                Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-09-27 19:02 -1000
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                Re: New to the group Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2015-09-28 17:23 +0200
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                Re: New to the group anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-09-29 09:05 +0000
                Re: New to the group Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2015-09-28 20:31 +0200
                Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-28 13:20 -0700
                Re: New to the group Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2015-09-28 22:52 +0200
                Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-28 16:40 -0700
                Re: New to the group Alfred Singlestone <vitonis@gmail.com> - 2015-09-28 08:41 -0700
                Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-09-28 11:41 -1000
                Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-28 21:33 -0700
                Re: New to the group jfong@ms4.hinet.net - 2015-09-28 19:13 -0700
                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 00:51 -0400
                Re: New to the group jfong@ms4.hinet.net - 2015-09-29 18:26 -0700
                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 21:55 -0400
                Re: New to the group Jan Coombs <Jan-54 <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com>> - 2015-09-30 08:29 +0100
                Re: New to the group jfong@ms4.hinet.net - 2015-09-29 18:52 -0700
                Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-29 00:29 -0700
                Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 04:40 -0700
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                Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-29 14:15 -0700
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                Re: New to the group "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-30 00:07 +0000
    Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-27 10:54 -0700
  Re: New to the group Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-09-26 22:37 -0700
    Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-27 10:51 -0700
  Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-09-29 17:15 -0700
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        Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-09-29 21:32 -1000
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            Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-09-30 08:58 -1000
              Re: New to the group Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-09-30 23:55 -0700
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                Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-09-30 19:34 -1000
                Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-30 23:47 -0700
                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-01 08:31 -0400
                Re: New to the group "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-10-02 00:30 -0400
                Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-01 19:22 -1000
                Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-10-01 23:52 -0700
                Re: New to the group Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 01:52 -0700
                Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-02 08:36 -1000
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                Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 14:46 -0700
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                Re: New to the group Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-02 18:21 -0700
                Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-02 15:38 -1000
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                Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 17:33 -0400
          Re: New to the group hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-09-30 17:00 -0700
            Re: New to the group "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-09-30 20:38 -0400
            Re: New to the group Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2015-10-02 14:37 -0400
              Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-02 17:01 -0400
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        Re: New to the group "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-09-30 18:11 -0400
          Re: New to the group Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2015-10-01 02:13 +0200
    Re: New to the group Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2015-09-30 08:38 +0100
      Re: New to the group Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2015-09-30 10:58 -0400
  Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-01 06:04 -0700
    Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-01 09:46 -0400
    Re: New to the group anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-08 06:07 +0000
      Re: New to the group Alfred Singlestone <vitonis@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 04:04 -0700
        Re: New to the group rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 10:29 -0400
        Re: New to the group anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-09 15:30 +0000
  Re: New to the group lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 00:19 -0700
    Re: New to the group visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-10-03 17:01 -0700
    Re: New to the group anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-08 06:38 +0000
      Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-07 21:15 -1000
        Minimal wordset (was: New to the group) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-08 13:39 +0000
          Re: Minimal wordset (was: New to the group) JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-10-08 08:13 -0700
            Re: Minimal wordset (was: New to the group) Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 00:55 -0700
              Re: Minimal wordset Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-10-09 10:43 +0200
                Re: Minimal wordset Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 06:56 -0700
                Re: Minimal wordset Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-10-09 19:44 +0200
                Re: Minimal wordset Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-10-09 14:02 -0700
                Re: Minimal wordset Jan Coombs <Jan-54 <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com>> - 2015-10-10 09:44 +0100
                Re: Minimal wordset anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-10 11:36 +0000
                Re: Minimal wordset lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 08:40 -0700
                Re: Minimal wordset Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-10-09 19:53 +0200
                Re: Minimal wordset lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 11:22 -0700
                Re: Minimal wordset JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-10-09 11:33 -0700
                Re: Minimal wordset Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-10-09 20:38 +0200
                Re: Minimal wordset stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-10-09 20:56 +0000
                Re: Minimal wordset rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-01 20:10 -0500
                Re: Minimal wordset Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2015-11-02 03:05 +0100
                Re: Minimal wordset "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-11-01 16:08 -1000
                Re: Minimal wordset stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-11-02 09:35 +0000
                Re: Minimal wordset anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-02 12:42 +0000
                Re: Minimal wordset humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2015-11-08 23:22 -0800
                Re: Minimal wordset rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-03 11:25 -0500
                Re: Minimal wordset stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-11-03 19:36 +0000
                Re: Minimal wordset "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2015-11-08 12:56 +1100
                Re: Minimal wordset stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-11-08 16:14 +0000
                Re: Minimal wordset "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2015-11-09 11:55 +1100
                Re: Minimal wordset anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-02 09:41 +0000
                Re: Minimal wordset rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-11-03 11:29 -0500
                Re: Minimal wordset anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-11-03 17:01 +0000
                Re: Minimal wordset JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-10-09 11:27 -0700
            Re: Minimal wordset (was: New to the group) "Rod Pemberton" <boo@fasdfrewar.cdm> - 2015-10-09 23:11 -0400
              Re: Minimal wordset (was: New to the group) Jan Coombs <Jan-54 <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com>> - 2015-10-10 08:38 +0100
      Re: New to the group dunno <dunno@dunno.dunno> - 2015-10-14 23:14 +0000
        Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-14 16:21 -1000
        Re: New to the group anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-10-15 08:46 +0000
  Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-03 09:23 -0700
    Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-03 09:19 -1000
  Re: New to the group lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-08 05:24 -0700
    Re: New to the group "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-10-08 08:22 -1000
      Re: New to the group lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2015-10-09 08:37 -0700
  Re: New to the group Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2015-10-31 10:44 -0700

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